AIL Update

[dcfcsteve]

Also,When Shelbourne played Deportivo, 25,000 people were at the game. It was great advertising for the eL - we saw an eL team competing at European level against a top European team. It was the best advertising you could ask for. The next Shelbourne league game had 1,500 or so at it. This is not conclusive proof of any kind, but does show that even with exposure, even with relative success (Shels got a draw that night), fans just weren't interested.



What got 25,000 to the Shels v Deportivo game ? A large part of it was 'hype' and media excitement. Is it possible to do so for clubs again ?

Well - yes ! A huge crowd turned out to see an ordinary League of Ireland game when Rovers played their first match at the RDS. That was because there was lots of buzz around the idea of Rovers returnuing to the South side, having what people then thought would be a new home etc. They didn't keep the same level of crowd across the season, but the fact an ordinary LOI game attracted such crowds showed that it is possible.

Look also at Derry City - home crowds of 8-10,000 for 5 years in the late 1980's, and up to 4,000 travelling to away games. Why ? Despite what some will claim, it wasn't because of the 'novelty'. It was because there was a huge buzz around the club at the time. It was pure 'hype', and it worked in atrtacting huge crowds.

So Irish football has the potential to deliver much larger crowds to domsetic games than it currently does - because it has done it before in the past. The propoer media exposure and promotion will be key here.

I can just hear your voice echoing in the mouths of all those people and puindits who said that a different structure for 'club'/provincial rugby wouldn't do much for non-International support levels in Ireland.

[osarusan]

Well - yes ! A huge crowd turned out to see an ordinary League of Ireland game when Rovers played their first match at the RDS. That was because there was lots of buzz around the idea of Rovers returnuing to the South side, having what people then thought would be a new home etc. They didn't keep the same level of crowd across the season, but the fact an ordinary LOI game attracted such crowds showed that it is possible.

Look also at Derry City - home crowds of 8-10,000 for 5 years in the late 1980's, and up to 4,000 travelling to away games. Why ? Despite what some will claim, it wasn't because of the 'novelty'. It was because there was a huge buzz around the club at the time. It was pure 'hype', and it worked in atrtacting huge crowds.

So Irish football has the potential to deliver much larger crowds to domsetic games than it currently does - because it has done it before in the past. The propoer media exposure and promotion will be key here.

No doubt, with proper promotion, they crowds will increase. But some of the numbers I've heard in relation to Platinum One are laughable.


Steve, you've given one example regarding Rovers, and you admit that once the novelty wore off regarding their new home, the crowds fell away. What will be different this time?

The Derry example isn't a fair comparison, as the level of hype generated by a club rising from the ashes like Derry City did is much greater than an AIL which actually has you playing the mostly same teams as before.

So your third quoted paragraph, where you claim your examples are proof that your argument is correct, rings false. The currently-proposed AIL, apart from the first home game against Linfield, or Glentoran, will struggle to generate hype comparable to the first example you gave, and will never be able to compare to your second example in terms of hype.

No doubt, with proper marketing, crowds will increase, initially at least, but some of the numbers I've seen regarding the Platinum One proposal are unrealistic.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve, you've given one example regarding Rovers, and you admit that once the novelty wore off regarding their new home, the crowds fell away. What will be different this time?

The Derry example isn't a fair comparison, as the level of hype generated by a club rising from the ashes like Derry City did is much greater than an AIL which actually has you playing the mostly same teams as before.

So your third quoted paragraph, where you claim your examples are proof that your argument is correct, rings false. The currently-proposed AIL, apart from the first home game against Linfield, or Glentoran, will struggle to generate hype comparable to the first example you gave, and will never be able to compare to your second example in terms of hype.

No doubt, with proper marketing, crowds will increase, initially at least, but some of the numbers I've seen regarding the Platinum One proposal are unrealistic.

Do you believe that Irish football is intrinsically doomed to continue wallowing in the current medicority it inhabits for ever ?

If not - what do you propose will lift it out of that mediocrity, if not an AIL ?

And if the most feasible proposal anyone can come up with to achieve this is a well-marketed AIL, are you saying a professional sports promotion company wouldn't make a better run at it than a load of blazers...?

[Graemerz]

:confused:

Given that Lnfield barely bring triple figures to European aways, why do you think up to 10 times as many will similarly bother their arses to travel to Galway.

Glentoran's away Setanta crowds have remained impressive, despite the awfulness endured on the pitch. With the exception of Derry away (last season), our away crowds have matched - and bettered - Linfield's.

"Fact!":rolleyes:

lmfao. Aye right. I believe ye.... Many wouldn't...

[A face]

osarusan, 4tothefloor

Lads, just to back up Steves point there. Back in 2004-2005 city sold out the cross 6-7 times. That was from pure hype, a buzz around the City. Go back 10 years ago that would have been unheard of. Maybe we got big attendances for European games but to sell out the ground for LOI games, that was unheard of.

I'm sorry .... i'm with Steve on this one.

AIL or no AIL, are you seriously telling me that clubs/the league/the powers that be SHOULDN'T make an effort to bring in big crowds. Where is your point ending? You're contesting everything that Steve is saying, fair enough but where do you see it going?

Should we all just sit on our hands and wish it better? We have tried that already and it didn't work. Should we stay with it because its consistant if nothing else?

I do see a day when there are 10-15,000 at all LOI games, i think everything that contributes to that has failed year after year to the point it spiralled downwards for so long. To say that trying to improve and raise the standard and belief and expectation again wont help is crazy and its not an option. I'm not taking that onboard at all.

I'll believe your outlook when i see everything working in tandum, all of the various element needed to have this league thriving, huge positivity and unprecidented investment, quality coaching methods and facilities, etc. and if it doesn't encouage people to come out in their droves and have a bit of civic pride then i'll admit you are right. I'll also say if that wont do it for them, then their not worth it.

[galwayhoop]

:confused:

Given that Lnfield barely bring triple figures to European aways, why do you think up to 10 times as many will similarly bother their arses to travel to Galway.

you obviously haven't been to Galway so have ya!!!!! :p

[A face]

Given that Lnfield barely bring triple figures to European aways, why do you think up to 10 times as many will similarly bother their arses to travel to Galway.

Hee hee, bad choice there :p

Yeah, i have to agree with galwayhoop there. You picked the worng team there i think, cos Galway is probably the best away trips for most clubs. Its a great town to go out in :)

[osarusan]

If not - what do you propose will lift it out of that mediocrity, if not an AIL ?
Again, please tell me why Bohs against Derry in a new "Platinum AIL" will be better than now?



are you saying a professional sports promotion company wouldn't make a better run at it than a load of blazers...?
I've already said that I agree that a professional promotion could market it better than the current bodies are doing. My point, which you haven't yet contradicted, was that as a business out to make profit, they could show bias. This worries me, and should worry any club involved, just in case they have a couple of bad seasons and lose money.




AIL or no AIL, are you seriously telling me that clubs/the league/the powers that be SHOULDN'T make an effort to bring in big crowds.

I've never said anything even remotely similar to what you've somehow inferred.




I'll believe your outlook when i see everything working in tandum, all of the various element needed to have this league thriving, huge positivity and unprecidented investment, quality coaching methods and facilities, etc. and if it doesn't encouage people to come out in their droves and have a bit of civic pride then i'll admit you are right. I'll also say if that wont do it for them, then their not worth it.
In what way will the "Platinum AIL" achieve these goals?


A Face, you asked me for my point.

My points are these -
# I'm against an AIL being run by a business out to make profit, as decisions could be based on profit for the company, rather than what is good for the league in terms of football.
# I'm against an AIL being run by a business who might show bias towards certain clubs who would help their attempts to make a profit more than others.
# I'm skeptical that the proposed AIL will lead to the kind of improvements, especially in terms of attendance, that people are imagining. You've mentioned better training and facilities - I'd say that any club who focuses on these aspects of the club, while admirable in the long term, would see them out of the title race in the short term; as a result, I'd argue that clubs are unlikely to go down that road. Clubs who are against a 65% wage-cap are unlikely, in my opinion, to voluntarily invest funds in such things, at the expense of squad quality.
#I'm for a fair governing body.
#I'm for a wage cap to force, yes, force clubs to spend money on things other than players.

I want the league (AIL or not) to improve as much as anybody. But I want it to improve under a fair and unbiased governing body who don't look at clubs in terms of profit or loss. I'm surprised that any football fan would be so willing for their team to enter a league that could be run on such a basis.

There seems to be an attitude here that "it is all the FAI's fault. They're the reason the fans don't come, and we don't have enough money. With more money, all our problems will be solved." Now some of this is true, but I think that in the eagerness to improve themselves, clubs are expecting all sorts of improvements this AIL won't provide.

[galwayhoop]

I want the league (AIL or not) to improve as much as anybody. But I want it to improve under a fair and unbiased governing body who don't look at clubs in terms of profit or loss. I'm surprised that any football fan would be so willing for their team to enter a league that could be run on such a basis.

you make some good points but can you clarify the following:

On what basis were Shels relegated last year??

Why did Dublin City fold??

Why did Kilkenny fold??

Why did Limerick fold last year (pre-L37 revival)??

Why were Galway United promoted last year??

The anwer to all of the above, in whole or in part, is FINANCIAL GROUNDS!!!!!!!

Without going into the minutiae the fact is that most if not all of football is down to profit & loss at this present moment in time. Surely on any other grounds than 'Profit & loss' Dundalk would have played Premier Division football the season just gone.

[osarusan]

you make some good points but can you clarify the following: (Examples)
Without going into the minutiae the fact is that most if not all of football is down to profit & loss at this present moment in time.

Fair post, I'll clarify.

The FAI, as far as I'm concerned, have an obligation to treat all clubs equally, and show favour to none. The FAI, by and large, have lived up to this (the promotion circus last season notwithstanding). The other examples you've given are clubs mis-managing themselves, or just not having enough support to survive/flourish. As you pointed out, football is always a matter of profit and loss, but that should be along the lines of "each club for themselves" on a level playing field.

The proposed AIL could actually deliberately favour clubs over other clubs because the former are in a position to make more profit for the business running the league.

[jebus]

you make some good points but can you clarify the following:

On what basis were Shels relegated last year??

Why did Dublin City fold??

Why did Kilkenny fold??

Why did Limerick fold last year (pre-L37 revival)??

Why were Galway United promoted last year??

The anwer to all of the above, in whole or in part, is FINANCIAL GROUNDS!!!!!!!

Without going into the minutiae the fact is that most if not all of football is down to profit & loss at this present moment in time. Surely on any other grounds than 'Profit & loss' Dundalk would have played Premier Division football the season just gone.

All true, but something that needs to be changed if we are to stem the tide of opinion against this league. I mean people view this league as a joke, and shouting from the roof tops that the league promotes/demotes solely on financial issues will not make anyone think otherwise, but might push quite a few EL fans away

[A face]

I've never said anything even remotely similar to what you've somehow inferred.

Alright, fair enough ... but you have to admit, it did sound all doom and gloom.


In what way will the "Platinum AIL" achieve these goals?

If its a better, more viable product with more investment and media coverage being offered to fans (new and old) then it stands to reason that it will be in a better position. I'm not saying that it will reach those goals but it will be better placed to do so.


A Face, you asked me for my point.

My points are these -
# I'm against an AIL being run by a business out to make profit, as decisions could be based on profit for the company, rather than what is good for the league in terms of football.

This is all assumption for a start but even if you are right, wouldn't it be based on a percentage basis of profit? So it would be a case of 'if they do well, then we do well'


# I'm against an AIL being run by a business who might show bias towards certain clubs who would help their attempts to make a profit more than others.

Ah come 'ere, we'd all have the same rule book, we'll all have the same opportunity. There would also be safegaurds etc. put in place for the very reason (not the menacing 'lets do away with this club and that club' way you are suggested. But there would be safeguards put in place to ensure clubs dont bottom out. They would be much the same as now, ensuring clubs keep a tight ship.


# I'm skeptical that the proposed AIL will lead to the kind of improvements, especially in terms of attendance, that people are imagining.

Even if it were the same attendance figures it would be better already, with tv money, prize money etc.


You've mentioned better training and facilities - I'd say that any club who focuses on these aspects of the club, while admirable in the long term, would see them out of the title race in the short term; as a result, I'd argue that clubs are unlikely to go down that road. Clubs who are against a 65% wage-cap are unlikely, in my opinion, to voluntarily invest funds in such things, at the expense of squad quality.

Alarmist ..... that is all i can say there.


#I'm for a fair governing body.

Yeah, i am too. Are you saying what happened to Limerick FC (before Limerick 37) was fair? Again, we'd all have the same rule book.


#I'm for a wage cap to force, yes, force clubs to spend money on things other than players.

We have yet to see will that work, sorry now but the jury is still out on that one.


There seems to be an attitude here that "it is all the FAI's fault. They're the reason the fans don't come, and we don't have enough money. With more money, all our problems will be solved." Now some of this is true, but I think that in the eagerness to improve themselves, clubs are expecting all sorts of improvements this AIL won't provide.

The league is the way it is over year upon year of compounded mismanagement and chronic administration.

Do not fool yourselves at all people ..... Do not dare shy away from this point ..... read it aloud or sing it, whatever you have to do ..... the league is the way it is because of the FAI's administration.

I hate saying, because recently they have been getting it together for a bit, but they have years to go to even things up. The blame is most definitely on the doorstep of Merrion Square, that there is no doubt about. It was their remit, they were entrusted with it, it was under their stewardship. You can blame clubs that were given absolutely no guidance what so ever with shambolic stuff going on behind the green door all you want.

The league is the way it is because of the FAI's administration.

[MariborKev]

I hate saying, because recently they have been getting it together for a bit, but they have years to go to even things up. The blame is most definitely on the doorstep of Merrion Square, that there is no doubt about. It was their remit, they were entrusted with it, it was under their stewardship. You can blame clubs that were given absolutely no guidance what so ever with shambolic stuff going on behind the green door all you want.

The league is the way it is because of the FAI's administration.


Apart from the cheap point scoring of pointing out that the FAI is now in Abbotstown. The League was run by the clubs up until the end of 2006. Like it or not, the Board of Management ruled the roost, made up of club reps.

The League has been getting better in the last year, because the FAI have taken over running it.

[CharlesThompson]

My points are these -
# I'm against an AIL being run by a business out to make profit, as decisions could be based on profit for the company, rather than what is good for the league in terms of football.


Can you just clarify your reasoning behind this point? IMO This is a positive area insofar as a healthy league will only survive as a healthy league is the company that runs it, runs it for the good of the league in terms of football.

If it runs it contrary to this as you seem to suggest, then the league will not prosper therefore Platinum - in this case - would be shooting themselves in the foot. No?

[galwayhoop]

The League has been getting better in the last year, because the FAI have taken over running it.

evidence????

the league has had the champions relegated last year and 3 clubs folded. fines for every thing from toilet roll on pitches to bad language. i have not seen any more publicity up to now than was there before, the FAI cup final was moved because it clashed with a juncket....

is it really that much better than before?

[A face]

Apart from the cheap point scoring of pointing out that the FAI is now in Abbotstown. The League was run by the clubs up until the end of 2006. Like it or not, the Board of Management ruled the roost, made up of club reps.

Very smart Maribor ..... I'm on about the time before Merrion Square aswell to be honest. The clubs running the league that time was just a shame, you know it, i know it, we all know it. How long did the run the league for? How did it come about? What was the motive? Who was directly involved in the FAI prior to the split?

I'm on about the last 50 years


The League has been getting better in the last year, because the FAI have taken over running it.

I already acknowledged that. Thats why i didn't include Abbotstown. The effort the FAI have put in over the last 2-3 year i thought i would never see. And i'm not lying, i was resigned to the fact they would never try and resolve the situation.

Edit: I'm still not 100% they will either. I welcome everything positive they do because its better than we have had in the past but i'm still not convinced. I'm waiting for the punchline, the gag, the 'ha ha we had you going there for a while ... you really thought we were going to actually help you out'. Something still hangs over them, i cant put my finger on it but it'll be a awhile before it goes away. The only reason i trust them is because it was impossible to get any worse.

I hope its shame that has spurred them into action recently, because they should have an abudance of that to go around.

[OneRedArmy]

evidence????

the league has had the champions relegated last year and 3 clubs folded. Having the champions relegated was distinctly preferable to allowing them to stay in the Premier and compete in Europe as would've happened previously.

Its hardly surprising that when you implement more rigourous financial criteria (surely a good thing?) that you have losers. Short-term pain for hopefully a long-term gain.

Whilst the FAI are not blameless the clubs created the vast majority of historic problems themselves by poor administration and management.

[garyderry]

evidence????

the league has had the champions relegated last year and 3 clubs folded. fines for every thing from toilet roll on pitches to bad language. i have not seen any more publicity up to now than was there before, the FAI cup final was moved because it clashed with a juncket....

is it really that much better than before?

The FAI cup final was always under the remit of the FAI.
Its the league that has moved from the clubs to the FAI.

And apart from some strange fines, yes there has been a huge shift in the
league how its run, the prize money on offer, the TV coverage, and it looks to
continue to improve.

In fact the FAI acting so promptly with $hel$ is prove of just how much it has improved/

[Graemerz]

:confused:

Given that Linfield barely bring triple figures to European aways, why do you think up to 10 times as many will similarly bother their arses to travel to Galway.

Glentoran's away Setanta crowds have remained impressive, despite the awfulness endured on the pitch. With the exception of Derry away (last season), our away crowds have matched - and bettered - Linfield's.

"Fact!":rolleyes:

Not quite sure what European trips have to do with an All Ireland League but anyway what are you basing this "huge" European Glentoran support on? 3 years ago when you embarrassed NI by getting trounced by Shelbourne. Have to say I think even Glentoran could muster up more fans for a journey to Dublin when compared to Bluemen who had to travel to Latvia! Fair contest. In fact the only way you can compare European attendences was this year, when we both went to Sweden. Have a look at the pics below and see how embarrassing your above comments now are.

Linfield: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=awaysupportqg1.jpg

Glentoran: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=glentorangayboysgl0.jpg

As for Setanta take a look at this post posted on this forum just a few weeks ago from a Shelbourne supporter:

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=856210&postcount=38

That somewhat blows your entire statement apart. Also I'm sure there are a few Drogheda supporters on these forums that can verify that the Glens brought maybe just half of what Linfield brought to United Park.

Also I could go onto embarrass you more by getting a picture of your completely pathetic home support at the Oval in last years competition against Linfield in which finished 2-1 to Linfield.

[David]

Not quite sure what European trips have to do with an All Ireland League but anyway what are you basing this "huge" European Glentoran support on? 3 years ago when you embarrassed NI by getting trounced by Shelbourne. Have to say I think even Glentoran could muster up more fans for a journey to Dublin when compared to Bluemen who had to travel to Latvia! Fair contest. In fact the only way you can compare European attendences was this year, when we both went to Sweden. Have a look at the pics below and see how embarrassing your above comments now are.

Linfield: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=awaysupportqg1.jpg

Glentoran: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=glentorangayboysgl0.jpg

As for Setanta take a look at this post posted on this forum just a few weeks ago from a Shelbourne supporter:

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=856210&postcount=38

That somewhat blows your entire statement apart. Also I'm sure there are a few Drogheda supporters on these forums that can verify that the Glens brought maybe just half of what Linfield brought to United Park.

Also I could go onto embarrass you more by getting a picture of your completely pathetic home support at the Oval in last years competition against Linfield in which finished 2-1 to Linfield.

Not like you to make such a good post. I like it. :)

[holidaysong]

Without going into the minutiae the fact is that most if not all of football is down to profit & loss at this present moment in time. Surely on any other grounds than 'Profit & loss' Dundalk would have played Premier Division football the season just gone.

Not true. Our finances were fine, it was the results over the previous four seasons that we were screwed on.

[pineapple stu]

Did one of your directors not note you were losing a quarter of a mill last year? Thought I saw it on your forum; will have a look for a link.

[galwayhoop]

Not true. Our finances were fine, it was the results over the previous four seasons that we were screwed on.

maybe badly worded by me but we got serious brownie points through our financial plan/projections. our on pitch performance was our weaker of the 'two halves' but combined we got a higher total than yourselves. what i mean is had all things been equal from a profit and loss point of view it would have been Dundalk in the PL and not us.

[dcfcsteve]

maybe badly worded by me but we got serious brownie points through our financial plan/projections. our on pitch performance was our weaker of the 'two halves' but combined we got a higher total than yourselves. what i mean is had all things been equal from a profit and loss point of view it would have been Dundalk in the PL and not us.

If financial projections played that central a role in getting a license, then Dublin City would be the only top rated team.

After all - they were going to be in the Champions League group stages after 5 years..

:)

[forza rovers]

i cant see it ever working

[sullanefc]

Everybody is saying that this proposal will never work because it would not have the FAI/IFA's backing, but here is an idea that might get their backing.

2 leagues of 10. One north, one south. Similar to what we have now, but with less teams in each league.

You play everyone in your own league, home and away (18 games) and you play everyone in the other league home and away (20 games), that is 38 games that every team plays.

Whoever finishes top of their own leagues takes the Champions league spot for their respective jurisdiction. So nobody loses their European spots. But those two teams can still play in a final to determine the all Ireland champions.

The FAI/IFA cups could remain the same and keep their euro spots. If you wanted an all Ireland cup, then the league cup could be changed here.

In essence, you still have 2 leagues, 2 sets of euro spots, but you play teams from the other league for points towards your own season. Any thoughts??

[superfrank]

That is by far the most favourable proposal I've heard.

[Big Ears]

Everybody is saying that this proposal will never work because it would not have the FAI/IFA's backing, but here is an idea that might get their backing.

2 leagues of 10. One north, one south. Similar to what we have now, but with less teams in each league.

You play everyone in your own league, home and away (18 games) and you play everyone in the other league home and away (20 games), that is 38 games that every team plays.

Whoever finishes top of their own leagues takes the Champions league spot for their respective jurisdiction. So nobody loses their European spots. But those two teams can still play in a final to determine the all Ireland champions.

The FAI/IFA cups could remain the same and keep their euro spots. If you wanted an all Ireland cup, then the league cup could be changed here.

In essence, you still have 2 leagues, 2 sets of euro spots, but you play teams from the other league for points towards your own season. Any thoughts??

I remember suggesting something similar to that before as(at least as things currently stand) makes the most sense .

[passerrby]

Everybody is saying that this proposal will never work because it would not have the FAI/IFA's backing, but here is an idea that might get their backing.

2 leagues of 10. One north, one south. Similar to what we have now, but with less teams in each league.

You play everyone in your own league, home and away (18 games) and you play everyone in the other league home and away (20 games), that is 38 games that every team plays.

Whoever finishes top of their own leagues takes the Champions league spot for their respective jurisdiction. So nobody loses their European spots. But those two teams can still play in a final to determine the all Ireland champions.

The FAI/IFA cups could remain the same and keep their euro spots. If you wanted an all Ireland cup, then the league cup could be changed here.

In essence, you still have 2 leagues, 2 sets of euro spots, but you play teams from the other league for points towards your own season. Any thoughts??

why will that get the backing of the associations if they are not running it. and it looks like it would only get the support of ten clubs.

[EalingGreen]

Everybody is saying that this proposal will never work because it would not have the FAI/IFA's backing, but here is an idea that might get their backing.

2 leagues of 10. One north, one south. Similar to what we have now, but with less teams in each league.

You play everyone in your own league, home and away (18 games) and you play everyone in the other league home and away (20 games), that is 38 games that every team plays.

Whoever finishes top of their own leagues takes the Champions league spot for their respective jurisdiction. So nobody loses their European spots. But those two teams can still play in a final to determine the all Ireland champions.

The FAI/IFA cups could remain the same and keep their euro spots. If you wanted an all Ireland cup, then the league cup could be changed here.

In essence, you still have 2 leagues, 2 sets of euro spots, but you play teams from the other league for points towards your own season. Any thoughts??

Interesting and (initially, at least), a very atttractive idea.

That said, I can see two drawbacks.
1. Ultimately, it will lead to games between the bottom teams from each League, which will often be the "smallest" teams (support, finances, facilities etc) having to play each other twice a season. And if these clubs can't make it pay when playing locally, how much worse would it be for e.g. Institute or Armagh to have to travel to Waterford or Bray or Cobh etc?
2. Under this scheme, the new money (sponsors, broadcasters etc) would have to be split between 20 teams, rather than the dozen or so(?) currently envisaged.

I personally think it might work better (or at least be more acceptable to the present backers) if it were two Leagues of 8 teams each. Obviously, this would only allow 30 League games per season, but the extra 8 matchdays could be used to accomodate an all-Ireland Cup (knockout) competition. And fewer teams would maintain standards at a higher level, as well as spreading the money less thinly (not something I like, but harsh reality, I fear, if it is to be accepted by the "big" clubs).

Overall, however, a very sound idea which avoids many of the problems with previous suggestions, including a "neater" preservation of the separate IFA and FAI jurisdictions, plus European places etc.

P.S. Don't quite understand why the Nth and Sth (domestic) champions should play a final to determine the A-I champions. Surely the team which finished top of the League after 38 (or 30) games will be the best team on the island?

[sullanefc]

1. Ultimately, it will lead to games between the bottom teams from each League, which will often be the "smallest" teams (support, finances, facilities etc) having to play each other twice a season. And if these clubs can't make it pay when playing locally, how much worse would it be for e.g. Institute or Armagh to have to travel to Waterford or Bray or Cobh etc?

No matter what league you look at you are going to have small teams at the bottom, scrapping infront of diminished crowds.

The eL is currently reducing to 10 teams to eradicate the small fish. TBH I think that this is a mistake as it destablises (sp?) a team around the 8th, 9th & 10th spots who may be poor one season but could crack on the next instead of relegating them.

Now this is not a dig to the IL, but I honetly think that our small clubs are bigger than your small clubs. So instead of 2 leagues of 10, would an 8 team IL and 12 team eL be more accteptable? You would have the same number of games, but the uneven distribution of clubs might upset the IFA. Unless the likes of Derry and Finn Harps etc were to play in the IL section.



2. Under this scheme, the new money (sponsors, broadcasters etc) would have to be split between 20 teams, rather than the dozen or so(?) currently envisaged.

Yes I agree that the bigger split of money is a problem, but I also think that a 30 game season is too short.



P.S. Don't quite understand why the Nth and Sth (domestic) champions should play a final to determine the A-I champions. Surely the team which finished top of the League after 38 (or 30) games will be the best team on the island?

Because you would have 2 separate league tables of 10. Not one league table of 20. The top team of each league would be the minor champs and CL entries, but the winner of the final match between these two teams would be the overall champion.

e.g. Last year, Linfield would be IL champs, Drogs would be eL champs and the winners play off for the overall title.

[CMcC]

Hello all.

First post on the forum.

Was interested reading the views on the AIL.
I am in favour as a fan. It would be great seeing my side play the best from the North on a regular basis over a long hard season. Hopefully more excitment and something different.
But I am concerned that some people may think its a miracle cure for the ills of the game on this island. The bottom line for me is that I dont think it will increase gates or increase games sufficiently.

The proposals have a lot of positives and therefore I believe they should be supported. Standards may rise on the pitch with a more competitive league. Off the pitch may improve too with sponsorship money and prize money increasing. Hopefully the more progressive better clubs will pump some of that into facilities also.
My pessimism stems from knowing the 'great' irish sporting public.
(Not including our Northern cousins here - not from there or living there so cant comment on that situation)

These are the people who give the biggest roar of the night in Croker last week v Brazil when a Man Utd player comes on as a sub late in the game........for the opposition.

These are the people who go to Ireland games wearing Celtic shirts or Rugby merchandise.

These are the great sporting public who boo'd Jaap Stam in Lansdown beause he had the nerve to have a public falling out with Alex Ferguson.

These same people bought season tickers for Sunderland in the summer !

Start mexican waves when Ireland are losing matches

Boo Rangers (and ex Rangers) players playing against Ireland !!

I mean this is what you are up against.

The great Irish Sporting Public are event junkies. They want to be there for the big day out (GAA League vs Championship / Shels v Deportivo).
If its nicely packaged and new - shiny and sparkly they will love it but dont expect continued support thats just too damn hard. I mean Arsenal v Liverpool is on the box lads - lets have a few pints.
The fact is that too many Irish people have their teams already and most are not in Ireland ! They spend their hand earned on the shirts, the air fairs, the inflated ticket prices and there isnt enough left to enable them to watch domestic football - even if they want to and thats the crux.

We have to accept the vast majority of football fans here just dont care about domestic football and certainly dont rate it. I just fear that the marketing spend will not be enough to win them over to a new sparkly shiny AIL when they already have the same sparkly shiny glitz on Sky and Setanta.

Lets face it, its far to cold sitting in Belfield watching a dour 0-0 when you could be sitting in the pub watching Sunderland and Derby !!!

I hope I'm wrong because the AIL is maybe our last shot and I do believe the product will be an improved one if its done right but I just dont trust the Great Irish Public. They never let me down.

[EalingGreen]

No matter what league you look at you are going to have small teams at the bottom, scrapping infront of diminished crowds.


Aye, but the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th "biggest" teams in Ireland are going to be so far adrift of the top half dozen teams as to be utterly uncompetitive i.e. like having four Derby Countys in the English Prem, as opposed to one. Remember that a leading rationale behind this new venture is that the teams all be full-time professional. Personally, I can't see Ireland supporting 16 f-t teams, never mind 20; if there is to be any hope, it will be because the money behind this League won't be spread too thinly.


Now this is not a dig to the IL, but I honetly think that our small clubs are bigger than your small clubs. So instead of 2 leagues of 10, would an 8 team IL and 12 team eL be more accteptable? You would have the same number of games, but the uneven distribution of clubs might upset the IFA. Unless the likes of Derry and Finn Harps etc were to play in the IL section.


No, you're quite correct about the present inequality between the two Leagues, though I would point out that it wasn't always so. (Up until 25 years ago, the IL was arguably stronger than the LOI, whether assessed by playing standards, crowds, finances, stadia or overall stability. So these things can change)

Your 8 and 12 split might work, though I still doubt that the Eircom could support 12 f-t professional clubs - esp. if 1 or 2 is relegated each year and so needs replacing.
As for including Derry and Finn Harps in the "Northern League", even if the two clubs themselves agreed (little or no chance, I'd have thought), it would compromise the separate identity of the two National Associations, which your scheme so cleverly preserves otherwise.



Yes I agree that the bigger split of money is a problem, but I also think that a 30 game season is too short.

Remember that with a 30 game season, each game will be more likely to "count" at one end of the table or another (i.e. fewer meaningless mid-table nothing-to-play-for games). On the other hand, the extra dates could be used for a knock-out A-I Cup (to replace the Setanta) and even a winter-break in January.

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)



Because you would have 2 separate league tables of 10. Not one league table of 20. The top team of each league would be the minor champs and CL entries, but the winner of the final match between these two teams would be the overall champion.

e.g. Last year, Linfield would be IL champs, Drogs would be eL champs and the winners play off for the overall title.

I see what you're saying, but surely the best idea would be effectively to have 20/16 clubs playing in one League, but split into two stages. That is, the first half (up to Xmas?) on a regional basis, with each region deciding its own Champion, with European places. Then a winter break. Then the two regions re-constituted to merge, so that at the end of the 38/30 games, whoever is top is the best team in the island.
Think of it as playing the other 19/15 teams on a home and away basis to find the best team, it's just that the first 19/15 games are against nearby teams, with the remaining 19/15 games against teams further away.
This way, the first half of the season offers the incentive of European football and the second half offers the financial incentive, according to where you finish overall in the League (plus the bragging rights!)

[seanfhear]

i think ail league could work particularly if linfield/glentoran/cliftonville were amongst the pacesetters in the early years which i think certainly linfield with some investment could do.is there much appetite for investing in nothern irish clubs

[sullanefc]

Aye, but the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th "biggest" teams in Ireland are going to be so far adrift of the top half dozen teams as to be utterly uncompetitive i.e. like having four Derby Countys in the English Prem, as opposed to one. Remember that a leading rationale behind this new venture is that the teams all be full-time professional. Personally, I can't see Ireland supporting 16 f-t teams, never mind 20; if there is to be any hope, it will be because the money behind this League won't be spread too thinly.



No, you're quite correct about the present inequality between the two Leagues, though I would point out that it wasn't always so. (Up until 25 years ago, the IL was arguably stronger than the LOI, whether assessed by playing standards, crowds, finances, stadia or overall stability. So these things can change)

Your 8 and 12 split might work, though I still doubt that the Eircom could support 12 f-t professional clubs - esp. if 1 or 2 is relegated each year and so needs replacing.
As for including Derry and Finn Harps in the "Northern League", even if the two clubs themselves agreed (little or no chance, I'd have thought), it would compromise the separate identity of the two National Associations, which your scheme so cleverly preserves otherwise.



Remember that with a 30 game season, each game will be more likely to "count" at one end of the table or another (i.e. fewer meaningless mid-table nothing-to-play-for games). On the other hand, the extra dates could be used for a knock-out A-I Cup (to replace the Setanta) and even a winter-break in January.

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)



I see what you're saying, but surely the best idea would be effectively to have 20/16 clubs playing in one League, but split into two stages. That is, the first half (up to Xmas?) on a regional basis, with each region deciding its own Champion, with European places. Then a winter break. Then the two regions re-constituted to merge, so that at the end of the 38/30 games, whoever is top is the best team in the island.
Think of it as playing the other 19/15 teams on a home and away basis to find the best team, it's just that the first 19/15 games are against nearby teams, with the remaining 19/15 games against teams further away.
This way, the first half of the season offers the incentive of European football and the second half offers the financial incentive, according to where you finish overall in the League (plus the bragging rights!)

All excellent points EG and hard to argue against. Personally I wouldn't be in favour of the last one though. I would prefer a mix up of the fixtures rather than say, my team Cork City, playing all the eL clubs first and then playing all the northern clubs. But that is my own preference.

[MariborKev]

http://www.allirelandpremierleague.com/index.html

New website for the proposal, not much there at the minute.

[kingdomkerry]

web site is fairly limited all right.

Dont think there will be an AIL until 2012. The FAI will want to implement their 5 year plan and wont support an AIL until then and lets face it. It will never happen without the support of the FAI and IFA.

2012 is an ideal time anyway as it will give clubs the chance to build and imporve stadia, improve standards further and incerease attendances. If they can do this an AIL will only allow for further improvements.

[micls]

HOTSHOT Gary Hamilton has let the all-Ireland league cat out of the bag.
In today's Sunday Life he revealed more details of the project driven by Jim Roddy.
The Glens top striker unveiled details of a secret meeting former Derry City chief Roddy held with Glentoran and Linfield players this week.
Michael Halliday, Elliot Morris, Daryl Fordyce joined up with Peter Thompson, Kris Lindsay, Jamie Mulgrew and Jim Ervin to discuss the move.
Hamilton revealed that the proposed league would be run independently from the two governing bodies on the island.
However, it is proposed that the Carnegie and Eircom premier leagues would act as feeders to the new competition.
Television and commercial sponsors are said to be keen to back the full-time set-up with one live match per week being screened.
An apprenticeship scheme for under 19s would also be part of the deal.
Clubs north and south of the border have already been consulted as has the Eircom league's players' union.
Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.

[Mr A]

Interesting that the league would start off with only ten teams before expanding to 12.


The All Ireland Premier League will create and manage a competitive and commercially viable league that will serve the interests of the clubs, players and fans in Ireland.

Laughed when I read that. They may portray it as being for the good of football all they want, and it may bring some good I admit, but this is about making money first, second and third.

[passerrby]

Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.

ops ..does that mean that this years promotion battle is no longer relevent.
I can see dundalk winning the league and not getting a golden ticket to go to the jimmy wonka league ..now that would be wrong.

[micls]

ops ..does that mean that this years promotion battle is no longer relevent.
I can see dundalk winning the league and not getting a golden ticket to go to the jimmy wonka league ..now that would be wrong.

In a really hilarious way :D

[EalingGreen]

HOTSHOT Gary Hamilton has let the all-Ireland league cat out of the bag.
In today's Sunday Life he revealed more details of the project driven by Jim Roddy.
The Glens top striker unveiled details of a secret meeting former Derry City chief Roddy held with Glentoran and Linfield players this week.
Michael Halliday, Elliot Morris, Daryl Fordyce joined up with Peter Thompson, Kris Lindsay, Jamie Mulgrew and Jim Ervin to discuss the move.


And since when did Administrators or Executives ever give a stuff about the interests of mere players? Only when they needed them on their side when it comes to doing battle with other Administrators and Execs, perhaps?
"Right, boys, there'll be plenty of money in it for yis - especially if we keep it down to just 10 teams..."



Hamilton revealed that the proposed league would be run independently from the two governing bodies on the island.


Oh it will, will it? I imagine the IFA and FAI might have something to say about that, never mind UEFA and FIFA. Perhaps the former could discuss it with the latter when Michel Platini comes to Belfast at the end of this month (to present Healy with his UEFA Trophy at the Georgia friendly). Iirc, this is Platini's 3rd visit to the IFA in Belfast since being voted into the top job at UEFA. By all the Associations, inc. the IFA (and FAI). I wonder whether Platini feels similarly obliged/grateful towards the backers of this proposed trans-Association League? Doubt it, somehow...



However, it is proposed that the Carnegie and Eircom premier leagues would act as feeders to the new competition.


So the new competition's backers don't want the IFA and FAI to have anything to do with their new competition, but do want their co-operation when it comes to Promotion and Relegation. That's very big of them. Unless, of course, they are secretly hoping that the IFA and FAI will tell them to get stuffed, in which case they can drop the idea of Prom & Rel and blame the Associations/Leagues for not co-operating.
Or could they be so Machiavellian? Surely not...:eek:

[A face]

So the new competition's backers don't want the IFA and FAI to have anything to do with their new competition, but do want their co-operation when it comes to Promotion and Relegation. That's very big of them. Unless, of course, they are secretly hoping that the IFA and FAI will tell them to get stuffed, in which case they can drop the idea of Prom & Rel and blame the Associations/Leagues for not co-operating.
Or could they be so Machiavellian? Surely not...:eek:

Or would it start with a 10 team league, with the winners of eL and IL being invited to join the AIL, making 12 and the next year the same 14, and the next year 16 or 8 & 8, and then 18 or 10 & 8, and then 20 or 10 & 10 ...... pretty soon there'd be no clubs left to promote from the eL or IL :eek:

[Student Mullet]

Did they say whether the champions' league place would go to the first division winner or the highest ranked premier club not invited?

[EalingGreen]

Did they say whether the champions' league place would go to the first division winner or the highest ranked premier club not invited?

If it's not sanctioned in some way by the IFA and FAI, you can pretty much guarantee that the new League and its member clubs will NOT be allowed entry into Europe (CL, UEFA Cup or even Inter-Toto), since UEFA takes its cue directly from the National Associations which make up its own Membership.

If you look at the only two (vaguely) relevant precedents - The Royal and Baltic Leagues - these do not qualify winners for European places, even though their formats were acceptable to the domestic Associations and UEFA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_League

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...:rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

If it's not sanctioned in some way by the IFA and FAI, you can pretty much guarantee that the new League and its member clubs will NOT be allowed entry into Europe (CL, UEFA Cup or even Inter-Toto), since UEFA takes its cue directly from the National Associations which make up its own Membership.

If you look at the only two (vaguely) relevant precedents - The Royal and Baltic Leagues - these do not qualify winners for European places, even though their formats were acceptable to the domestic Associations and UEFA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_League

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...:rolleyes:

Those competitions would have been "precidents" for the setanta cup, not a 'national' league.

[Bomb Landsdowne]

Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.[/QUOTE]

So are we looking at a return to winter football??

[EalingGreen]

Those competitions would have been "precidents" for the setanta cup, not a 'national' league.

My point is that these competitions will have been framed the way they were at least in part because UEFA is dead set against anything which detracts from domestic Leagues, esp if of a transnational nature. In other words, that is why there are no real direct precedents.

(Besides, I did say they were only "vaguely relevant")

[dcfcsteve]

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)



The AIL plan is for 10 professional clubs initially, with another 2 added 3 years later. For the whole island, that strikes me as a very feasible number.

[paudie]

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...:rolleyes:

Yeah. They'd better remember not to play any AIL games in Scandinavia during the winter or the whole thing is doomed;)