Sentencing in Irish Courts Discussion

[GavinZac]

Manslaughter. which is why I think 3 years is a bit of a joke
Why? Considering Padraig Nally got 6 years for "voluntary manslaughter" and will probably serve 5, for deliberately shooting a man dead from behind while he ran away, it seems fair to get 3 for involuntary manslaughter. Unless you think he did it on purpose? He deliberately choked his friend to death because he threw a stone?

[Block G Raptor]

Why? Considering Padraig Nally got 6 years for "voluntary manslaughter" and will probably serve 5,

That's my point. I think that the majority of sentences for manslaughter are far too lenient, if you cause the death of someone by act or omission whether you intended to kill or not I think you should be punished severely.

as for Voluntary Manslaughter thats a Joke. What is the difference between Voluntary manslaughter and Murder. not a lot I would think

[GavinZac]

as for Voluntary Manslaughter thats a Joke. What is the difference between Voluntary manslaughter and Murder. not a lot I would think"Voluntary manslaughter" is the act of killing somebody on purpose but whilst "out of your mind" or having some other extenuating circumstances. Not sure about our legal system but generally that includes fights, insane mothers drowning their daughters and scared old men shooting burglars. Some jurisdictions include drunk driving deaths in this, others make a special case for them for a separate punishment.
On the Nally case, I agree with you, but lets stick to one controversial killing per thread.

[anto1208]

link?


http://www.limerickleader.ie/3419/Halvey-case---mother.3680882.jp

[Block G Raptor]

"Voluntary manslaughter" is the act of killing somebody on purpose but whilst "out of your mind" or having some other extenuating circumstances. Not sure about our legal system but generally that includes fights, insane mothers drowning their daughters and scared old men shooting burglars. Some jurisdictions include drunk driving deaths in this, others make a special case for them for a separate punishment.
On the Nally case, I agree with you, but lets stick to one controversial killing per thread.

A woman (Iam assuming the same insane mother you're referring to above) was found not guilty of murder by way of insanity only this week and walked free, so I don't think your description of voluntary manslaughter is accurate in this respect

[GavinZac]

A woman (Iam assuming the same insane mother you're referring to above) was found not guilty of murder by way of insanity only this week and walked free, so I don't think your description of voluntary manslaughter is accurate in this respect

As I said I have no idea what the law is regarding that in this country or even if there is a defined separation between voluntary, negligent and accidental manslaughter in this country beyond the judge's discretion in sentencing.

[Block G Raptor]

judge's discretion in sentencing.

I'll need to Google this to be sure, but I'm sure I read somewhere recently that the maximum sentence for manslaughter is 10 years

[Lionel Ritchie]

http://www.limerickleader.ie/3419/Halvey-case---mother.3680882.jp

Is there any more infor available on why the DPP isn't proceeding to prosecute Halvey? Is it on a technical issue or what because this looks to me like a culpable homicide.

[OneRedArmy]

I think we need to take this up a level and examine why we imprison people. Ie what is the balance between punishment of the guilty party, deterrent to others, risk of re-offending and rehabilitation and how this is achieved.

Randomly picking a number for a given crime, IMO, adds little value to this discussion.

[anto1208]

Is there any more infor available on why the DPP isn't proceeding to prosecute Halvey? Is it on a technical issue or what because this looks to me like a culpable homicide.

No idea the family are furious they have been given no reason. The papers again are going with the tag "ex Irish rugby player" instead of the "evil child killer" tag WOD is getting.Even though he was more to blame for the kid dying than WOD.

[KevB76]

Is there any more infor available on why the DPP isn't proceeding to prosecute Halvey? Is it on a technical issue or what because this looks to me like a culpable homicide.

Thats depressing.

Does anyone know what sort of penalty he could face on the drink-driving charge ?

[KevB76]

Is there any more infor available on why the DPP isn't proceeding to prosecute Halvey? Is it on a technical issue or what because this looks to me like a culpable homicide.


"The Irish Independent has learned that the DPP decided to withdraw the charge after corroborating evidence did not tally."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/halvey-avoids-death-charge-1267715.html

[John83]

I think we need to take this up a level and examine why we imprison people. Ie what is the balance between punishment of the guilty party, deterrent to others, risk of re-offending and rehabilitation and how this is achieved.

Randomly picking a number for a given crime, IMO, adds little value to this discussion.
That issue requires informed participants. You won't find it discussed well very often on the internet.

[pete]

I thought they dropped the dangerous driving charge for Halvey but drunk driving matter is still open?

[KevB76]

I thought they dropped the dangerous driving charge for Halvey but drunk driving matter is still open?

Correct - or more to the point they've dropped the causing death by dangerous driving charge.

Corroborating evidence did not tally ( I had to look up what it means )


Corroborating evidence is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some evidence. For example, W, a witness, testifies that she saw X drive his automobile into a green car. Y, another witness, testifies that when he examined X's car later that day he noticed green paint on its fender.

So it appears that Halvey's 4x4 in the back seat of their car was not sufficient evidence that his driving caused the lads death :confused:

[Thunderblaster]

Are there any solicitors on foot.ie that can help give these definitions on voluntary/involuntary manslaughter?

[onceahoop]

Correct - or more to the point they've dropped the causing death by dangerous driving charge.

Corroborating evidence did not tally ( I had to look up what it means )



So it appears that Halvey's 4x4 in the back seat of their car was not sufficient evidence that his driving caused the lads death :confused:


This is the dilemma the public has. We do not get to hear all the evidence as presented therefore we tend to make assumptions, rightly or wrongly. Sometimes I feel that if we were to see the full transcript of a trial we would be better off, but as long as editors in the media cut articles to fit column inches we'll never get the full picture. It is possible,I'm sure, to read two reports of the same trial and arrive at differnt conclusons by virtue of an ommission of a piece of evidence in one paper.

[pete]

Are there any solicitors on foot.ie that can help give these definitions on voluntary/involuntary manslaughter?

I don't think anyone will admit to that :p

[anto1208]

This is the dilemma the public has. We do not get to hear all the evidence as presented therefore we tend to make assumptions, rightly or wrongly. Sometimes I feel that if we were to see the full transcript of a trial we would be better off, but as long as editors in the media cut articles to fit column inches we'll never get the full picture. It is possible,I'm sure, to read two reports of the same trial and arrive at differnt conclusons by virtue of an ommission of a piece of evidence in one paper.

This would explain my sympathy for WOD and why im amazed the kids parents are getting the good treatment that they are.There are more questions needed to be asked of them than WOD.

[inexile]

Are there any solicitors on foot.ie that can help give these definitions on voluntary/involuntary manslaughter?

voluntary manslaughter is when he intended to kill the victim but it was not pre-meditated. usually in a heat of the moment situation

involuntary manslaughter is killing someone by recklessness, the person wouldnt have meant to kill them but some act or ommission on their part caused the death.

[Block G Raptor]

voluntary manslaughter is when he intended to kill the victim but it was not pre-meditated. usually in a heat of the moment situation

No Intending to kill someone whether premeditated for a month or a second is murder.
the definition of voluntary manslaughter is more like intending to harm someone (Ie giving someone a good kicking) and the victim dying as a direct result

involuntary manslaughter is more like what happened with WOD and young robert, an act that was not intended to cause harm which unfortunately ended in death

[inexile]

no im afraid your wrong bgr, look a the nally case he admitted he shot to kill ward but that he only did so because he was out of his mind with worry and fear

[Block G Raptor]

no im afraid your wrong bgr, look a the nally case he admitted he shot to kill ward but that he only did so because he was out of his mind with worry and fear

Extenuating Circumstances / self defense ? not the same as killing someone in a fit of rage ie
usually in a heat of the moment situation

[inexile]

and all 3 could come under the same heading

[Block G Raptor]

and all 3 could come under the same heading

I don't think so. Self Defense ie believing your life to be in danger and finding your missus in bed with some bloke and beating them to death in a temper are hardly the same thing, neither is pre-meditated, one is excusable one is not

[inexile]

ya and believe it or not both of these could be used to used as a defence for diminished responsibilty.

anyway there is no charge for either voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, its either murder or manslaughter and its then up to the judge to decide what type of manslaughter it is and this only comes up when the judge is passing sentence