Here we go again.

[elroy]

A PLAN for a new €500m national stadium will be scrapped because the PDs and a number of Fianna Fail ministers oppose it.

The massive cost of building such a stadium here compared with other European countries means the junior Coalition partners will never sanction such expenditure.

It was revealed that Portugal could build seven world-class stadiums for the projected cost of a single national venue here. This will entrench the PDs in their stance against such a project.

They have now firmly put their foot down on the joint proposal for a 65,000 seater national stadium from the IRFU and the FAI. This proposal was submitted to the Government in April.

The joint plan envisaged building a new stadium to effectively replace the so-called 80,000 capacity 'Bertie Bowl' abandoned last autumn.

Sports Minister John O'Donoghue still has to bring this formally to Cabinet. But it was made clear last night that there is no prospect of the Government allocating hundreds of millions of euro to it.

The plan could not go ahead without Government backing as the two sports bodies would only contribute €120m to the cost with the taxpayer picking up the remainder of the bill.

It now appears that only a vastly less expensive stadium, ranging from 40,000 to 50,000 seating capacity, is likely to attract full Cabinet backing.

The FAI-IRFU proposals is the third attempt in four years to advance plans for a new stadium.

And it faces the same political opposition as previous efforts.

Tanaiste Mary Harney is firmly opposed to any prospect of Dublin having two "super-stadiums" - an 80,000 capacity Croke Park and a new 65,000 capacity venue.

A number of Government figures have carefully noted recent remarks by the Tanaiste when she reiterated her hope for Croke Park to be opened to other sports and dismissed any notion of two super-stadiums in Dublin.

And last night sources made clear that a number of Fianna Fail ministers also had serious concerns about the costs.

The IRFU/FAI proposal is based on building a stadium in one of four possible locations. Lansdowne Road and Abbotstown are the main contenders.

Mr Ahern has repeatedly favoured the Abbotstown site but the Tanaiste has made it clear she will not support any facility at that location.

The report presented to Mr O'Donoghue by the IRFU/FAI put a price tag of €470m euro on a new stadium at Lansdowne Road and €520m on a new stadium at Abbotstown.

More recent analysis of the figures suggest the Abbotstown site could ultimately cost €75m less than Lansdowne Road.

The two sporting bodies would contribute around €120m towards the cost leaving the Exchequer to pick up the balance ranging from €350m euro to €400m over six years.

A drastically scaled down plan with a maximum capacity of 50,000 seats would leave the Exchequer facing a bill in the region of €150m over five or six years and would be more likely to secure backing.

Meanwhile, new figures show that seven new stadiums, with a total capacity of 289,000 seats, are being built in Portugal for €500m. Last night Mr O'Donoghue said it was evident modern stadiums in Europe are being built at significantly reduced costs compared with here.

[tiktok]

:confused:

wasn't a large part of the high cost for abbottstown the fact that they had to create an entire infrastructure around it, major roads in, lay train tracks, build bus and train facilities etc. and plans to turn it into a huge complex with tracks and pools etc.

anyone think would we have been better off pouring half that money into redeveloping landsdowns road and dalymount as the GAA have done with Croke Park. seriously, do the FAI need an eighty thousand seater stadium.

[Soko]

Infrastructure was a large problem with original plans all right in Abbotstown. But what does Mary Harney know about sports stadiums? Fcuk all.


We need a stadium of 50,000 plus but not as big as 80,000. Remember were in this with the IRFU too and I dont think they would be too happy reducing their 50,000 capacity to 40,000 and losing revenue.

[tiktok]

the irfu would not be happy with reducing their capacity, i do take that point on board. they only play two or three competitive home games every year and demand for tickets (especially when england and france are the home games is high).

the fai on the other hand doesn't need much more than it has now, the way the group structure is set up for world cup and euro qualifying we'll only play one or two decent sides at home over two years (competitively) and the odd friendly along with that. i think they would have been hard pushed to sell fifty thousand tickets for the two most recent home matches.

and we'll never get fifty thousand at a domestic cup final.

[patsh]

If the so-called sports loving Toiseach hadn't shafted eircom Park, we would have a soccer stadium by now. He has, almost single handedly, thwarted any attempt to have a decent ground for soccer, because of his desire for a monument to himself.

The biggest scandal here though, is just why it would cost the price of seven stadiums to build one here.
Just who is creaming off the money?
This is the kind of sh*t you hear about in tinpot, banana republics...hang on, sure we ARE living in a f*cking banana republic:mad:

[tiktok]

Originally posted by oddboy
If the so-called sports loving Toiseach hadn't shafted eircom Park, we would have a soccer stadium by now.

exactly

[pete]

Can anyone be the least surprised?

While he can't be blamed for everything Bertie must take primary responsibilty for the stadium failure.

Shafted EP.
Free cash for the GAA before their "foreign games" vote eventhough he didn't have cabinet approval.

Also its the governments fault building costs are so expensiove in this country. They are afterall the people in charge & if they can't control prices shouldn't be in power.

[Ref]

i saw the other day that middlesbrough's riverside stadium with a capacity of 30,000 cost a whopping TWELVE to SIXTEEN MILLION POUNDS.

how does it cost FIVE HUNDRED MILLION FOR A STADIUM HERE?????????????

:confused:

[tiktok]

Originally posted by Ref
i saw the other day that middlesbrough's riverside stadium with a capacity of 30,000 cost a whopping TWELVE to SIXTEEN MILLION POUNDS.

how does it cost FIVE HUNDRED MILLION FOR A STADIUM HERE?????????????

:confused:

that actually sounds a little low, it'd cost nearly that to build a papier mache model to show investors :eek: , don't think i'll be visiting the riverside when it's raining;) .

[pete]

Originally posted by Ref
i saw the other day that middlesbrough's riverside stadium with a capacity of 30,000 cost a whopping TWELVE to SIXTEEN MILLION POUNDS.

Ah but thats just a basic stadium i.e. not enhanced or world class.

The latest irish proposals are apparently of the enhanced variety. Nothing but the best for us irish.

:rolleyes:

btw the Cardiff Stadium (roof included) was build for approx 150 sterling & they had to knock down most of an existimng stadium. Stade de France cost less than £300m i believe. I think Wembley excepted its probably hard to find an international stadium thats cost more tha €300m in Europe to build.

[niamh]

Bertie wants us to have a mad big stadium that is so extravagant that he'll be remembered as the one who built it. We don't need it. As for Eircom Park what do the FAI need a stadium for when they only ever play 3/4 home internationals a year incl friendlies. sharing with the IRFU is a good idea. depending on the government for anything is a bad idea.

[tiktok]

from www.eleven-a-side.com

Stadium a priority for FAI chief

FAI chief executive Fran Rooney, who started in his full-time role this week, remains hopeful that the Government will respond favourably to the joint submission of the FAI and the IRFU within the next three weeks.

The FAI’s hopes of gaining a foothold in the state-backed national stadium plan was scuppered last year with the abandonment of the Stadium Ireland project.

But the FAI, in conjunction with its rugby counterparts, presented a proposal to the government earlier this year, and Rooney remains optimistic that the project will go ahead.

“What we have been told [by the Government] both informally and formally, is that they’ll react to the submission inside the next month,” Rooney told the Irish Times Wednesday. “After that we’re just hopeful.”

The former head of Baltimore Technologies admitted that he had held no clear preference over the venue for the new stadium, which could be built at the present Lansdowne Road site. However, he indicated that the capacity would have to be sufficient to justify becoming the home of two of the country’s most popular sports.

“We’ve made a strong case for [the stadium’s] construction, and we believe that it has to be large enough to cope with the bigger crowds that ourselves and the IRFU can attract ... We could have sold far more than the 36,000 seats in Lansdowne Road for last week’s two qualifiers and we could easily sell twice that number for the Russia game.”


probably the way ahead, but will bertie loosen his grip on a legacy other than shambolic governmnet.

[@ndy]

Originally posted by niamh
Bertie wants us to have a mad big stadium that is so extravagant that he'll be remembered as the one who built it. We don't need it. As for Eircom Park what do the FAI need a stadium for when they only ever play 3/4 home internationals a year incl friendlies. sharing with the IRFU is a good idea. depending on the government for anything is a bad idea.

I agree.

[pete]

...take a deep breath...

I'm sure you've seen my many rants on EP but i am 1005 convinced Bertie has primary blame for its failure. Sure theres many in the FAI who can also take some of the blame but Berties antics in undermining the project for his own ego were not worthy of the office of Taoiseach.

If the FAI had failed EP on their own then Bertie wouldn't be to blame. Bribing FAI officials (more idiots to take it) & promising to provide an alternative is why i blame de leader.

If you are in government you are responsible for inflation. If a government says it can't control inflation it should resign. The government has done absolutely nothing to aid the supply of development land which would reduce the price of land.

I'd be surprised if the Stade de France could be build for anything approaching the price in France if the cheapest scrap of lands in this country was used.

[patsh]

Conor, NOBODY claimed that Ahern or any other member of the government would pocket any money from this. The complaint is that Ahern wants a stadium project that is unrealistic, and because of his obstinate persual of this project, plans for a more suitable stadium had to be shelved.
eircom Park was under "attack" by FF from the off. McDaid's promises of giving money to the FAI, if they dropped the project, the Dept of Defence with their incredible objections, the continuous ridiculing of the project by certain high profile media personalities. It was the "best" attempt ever by the FAI to build their own ground, something which points to exactly how bereft an organisation they are.
eircom Park was a flawed project, but with a little help rather that active hostility, a decent stadium could have come out of it.
Soccer has nowhere near the same membership and hold that the GAA has in Ireland, and as it does not pay players, it can put the money into grounds. It also charges a hell of a lot more for tickets than soccer clubs do.

The stadium in Cardiff cost roughly €220m at todays rate. It was a more "difficult" project than the rebuilding of Landsdowne Road would be. the average semi-d in Cardiff is around st£120,000 or €172,000, not all that far behind Dublin, (avge €225,000).
Wages work out higher in the UK on euro comparison. So why does it cost soo much here?

The point is that someone somewhere in the chain is making incredibly high profits and this is tolerated and indeed encouraged in this country. The Government have done nothing to prevent or curb the profiteering that is going on since the introduction of the euro. This can be seen in everyday life, and it's when we see projects that can be compared with elsewhere that peoples frustrations really come to the fore.

[patsh]

Originally posted by Conor74
What have Labour, Fine Gael, the Greens, Sinn Fein etc. etc. ever do for the FAI/a National Stadium/costs in the building industry/the price of land in Ireland?
What has this got to do with my post?
What have FF done?

Originally posted by Conor74

But before this descends into me versus you all, believe me I do think that Bertie is a fool who wanted his own monument. And I think he was out of line in the way the eP project was undermined.

But not having a football stadium is primarily a matter for the football authorities, not the taxpayer. The GAA and the IRFU have their own grounds, and (bar admittedly objectionable assistance from the Government on Croke Park) they managed to do it themselves. A lot of the projects mentioned above were financed by clubs rather than by governments. The GAA and IRFU haven't sat on their asses for 100 years and then tried to blame their failings on Bertie Ahern.
As I said, the FAI are a disgrace that they never got their act together enough to build a stadium. However when they did, they were seriously hindered by the present government. This is a major reason why it's highly unlikely that the eL project can be resurrected, and anyone in the organisation will be extremely wary of going anywhere near such a project again.
Personally I'd like to let the stadium idea rest for a few years and lets see how Rooney and the "new, improved" FAI develop. If the whole soccer organisation in this country can unite and act as one, there is no reason at all that they cannot emulate the GAA and build a good quality Stadium for their own use.

BTW, I hope the nuptuals and honeymoon went off well and married life will suit you !

[tiktok]

have to agree with oddboy there,

i have no problem admitting that the FAI should already have a decent stadium, and poor management has prevented it, the GAA and IRFU both redistribute money well (up from regional games and down from internationals respectively), a skill the FAI haven't really developed.

having said that when they tender a realistic proposal they were shot down because of Berties dream of an outsized and overpriced (again mainly due to the location in abbottstown having zero infrastructure to support it) effort.

[tiktok]

said i'd throw this in here after a month instead of starting a new thread...from www.unison.ie/sportsdesk

"The FAI desperately needs the Government to make a commitment to the national stadium soon as its derogation on the use of bucket seats at Lansdowne Road runs out at the end of the Euro 2004 qualifying campaign.

FIFA's director of stadium safety and security Walter Gagg is due in Dublin later this month, but the FAI has already been told that, unless there is a definite commitment to build a stadium, hopes of a further derogation will be dashed.

That would leave them with a commercially unviable ground capacity of 23,000."

basically, unless a major overhaul of landsdowne is undertaken or a definite commitment to a new stadium is made by the government (in either case our loophole can be extended) we will play the first game of our world cup qualifier in front of 23,000.

an alternative that has been cited is the playing of these games in larger stadia in england, so will this get bertie's finger out, it's one thing not to be able to watch the games on national tv, but to be unable to watch them on national soil (no cracks about away games please) is worse.

[Slash/ED]

Imagine the farce and embarassment it would have been if we were given Euro 2008.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by Conor74
...other countries that got more votes didn't even have the land earmarked....

but they probably had firm commitments in place to build as opposed to a rift in government over whether the funding would even get the all clear.

having said that the scottish portion of the bid wasn't great either. your spot on about stadium congestion in glasgow.

[Colm]

Originally posted by tiktok
an alternative that has been cited is the playing of these games in larger stadia in england

That would be an absolute joke and would cause us huge embarassment within European/World football.
If it came to it I'd choose the playing in front of 23,000 option ahead of the playing in England option, there's no contest in that regard for me.
The only realistic solution though is to get the stadium issue sorted. This needs to be done sooner rather than later. However, I for one am not all that optimistic.

[Schumi]

Originally posted by Colm
If it came to it I'd choose the playing in front of 23,000 option ahead of the playing in England option, there's no contest in that regard for me. Absolutely, there's no way that the games could be played outside of this country. It couldn't be allowed.

[Macy]

I await with baited breath for Bertie's latest fudge of the issue.... And he has the fookin cheek to turn up at the last two home internationals....

FF/PD "GOVERNMENT" OUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Seamus #1]

Sorry I don't live in Ireland so I'm not always up to date with the latest news...

I don't understand how Croker was used for the Special Olympics (foreign sports etc) but they won't allow 'soccer'??