Complacency setting in amongst supporters

[joeSoap]

I know I'm running the risk of incurring the wrath of many here but here goes.
I can't help but feel that a lot of you are not very ambitious for this club, (on the pitch wise) and seem happy with the way things are going. The harsh reality of it is, in my opinion, that we lie 6th in the lowest standard ever of first division football there has been and some of you call this progress. We are not scoring enough goals, are starting to concede too many, and while we play pretty, attractive football in the two thirds of the pitch that don't count as much as the other one, we're simply not doing the business as it should be done. Maybe new players are needed, maybe a new formation is needed, I don't know. But I do know that something is needed.Things have to change.I feel that we are still tactically inept when it matters...i.e. when we fall behind.Our wins and draws (Monaghan excepted) have come from situations where we have been ahead.Galway was shocking, Dublin City worse...need I go on.
I really hope that I have to eat buckets of humble pie, starting tomorrow night, but at the moment I feel that we're sliding instead of climbing and that our customary position of bottom 4 awaits!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gspain]

I think the priority has got to be getting the structures in place and a ground sorted out and putting the club on a firm footing to compete in this league.

I think the team is doing as well as can be expected. We wouldn't be allowed into the premier division even if we won promotion.

We've had senior football in the city for 66 consecutive years. Only Dundalk and Dublin have longer. Witht he new club licencing laws and the lack of money we're in serious danger of not being around for next year.

[sadloserkid]

I agree with you O Soapy one. We're nowhere near the finished product yet and if I had to place a bet on the top four at the end of the season I wouldn't be able to put our name there (Harps, Bray, Kildare and probably Dublin City for anybody who's curious). However we have improved this season and that is what I personally am pleased about. This is the first season that I've consistently seen us boss games around which is a step forward. Even though we're patently unable to put teams away I don't think we're sliding to be honest. Your point still stands. We're not good enough to go up right now and if by some miracle we did then we'd probably end up doing a Monaghan/Kilkenny type of thing. We have a good team this year but we're still a few players short of having a really good one. Out of the players we have at the moment only Purcell, Finucane, Sweeney, Keating and O'Flynn could cope with the top flight. The Derek McCarthy and Colm Heffernan of yesteryear could both possibly stake a claim but on current form they'd be badly out of their depth.

I don't think we'll have to struggle around to avoid re-election this year and after the last couple of seasons when our league form was frankly embarrassing (2 league wins at home last season...) that's a positive. On the pitch I want to see a top-class Limerick team. It won't happen overnight though and I recognise that. This season has seen some steps in the right direction I feel and whatever about the others I'm just pleased that we seem to have stopped the rot this year!

[deise deserter]

Joe Soap: No "wrath" from me. I cna understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree completely.

We are definitely making improvments on last year. We play good football, but as you say not in the third of the pitch that counts. As for not scoring goals I think it comes down to two factors:

1. Stevo is feeding instead of recieving balls.
2. Derek McCarthy isn't as fit as we hoped, things just don't seem to be working for him.

In relation to conceeding goals, I don't have confidence in Healy. He has only two clean sheets this year and has been dodgy on many an occassion. I would prefer to see Loughman given a go in goals.

Posted by GSpain:

I think the priority has got to be getting the structures in place and a ground sorted out and putting the club on a firm footing to compete in this league.

I think that if we continue to move at such a slow pace off the pitch we are doomed to fail the licencing. Don't get me wrong now, I am not saying that there is no progress, just that the committee are trying to do everything themselves - a feat that is simply impossible. Hopefully with the Supp Club coming onstream we can work to meet this minimum standard needed.

[LFC in Exile]

Interesting Joe Soap - I can see where you're coming from. I have been accused of being an apologist for the club and small time, and at the risk of being accused of that again I am happy with the progress made on the pitch. The team is completely new - and I think with the exception of the change of Healy for Fyffe it has been players replaced by better ones.

I have spoken to opposition fans who have said that they think Limerick are the best footballing team in the division. I haven't seen Finn Harps yet but of the other clubs I've seen of the division, including some of the leaders, the typeof football is atrocious. It is real kick and rush stuff. In fairness, I think we would all agree that Limerick are at least playing football - sometimes it is almost a case of too much football.

I think the team needs a couple of players to really make up the gulf that exists between premier and first division (though looking at Bray I'd nearly rather not play their brand of neanderthal football). At maybe this is where my 'small time' nature comes out - but what made anyone think that we would go from bottom of the league (or thereabouts) to challenging for the first division title. No other club has done it. Why do we set unrealistic targets - which just set ourselves up for disappointment. My own view is that every season has got be an improvement on the previous one - if that is the case then we wil get premier football, it just won't happen next season. If we were to take a realistic view of the club (we have to recognise that Limerick was never that successful a team - early 80s and early 60s apart) and said that the goal would be to have challenge for playoff positions in 2003/2004.Strive for an established premier division side in 2007. And from there?.....

Lads, JP MacManus is not banging down our door to give us wads of cash to bring back Bobby Ryan or sign John O'Flynn. This has got to be a steady growth - sustainable growth. If that makes me small time then so what. I'd rather work towards a premier team by 2006 than have a bankrupt club in 2004.

Off the field the move to Pike seems to be a positive one - absolutely more should and could be done on licensing. That is a real concern.

[sadloserkid]

Just noticed your sign-off. Nice one LFCIE!!! :D

[joeSoap]

Good to know that its all not just in my head then....I was expecting a barrage of abuse.
I live away from the city, and can't put a lot of time into things other than travelling to games, but is anyone interested in trying something radical as regards the committee. I don't ever agree with anything that Lims Fan says about matters on the pitch, but sadly I'm coming around to his way of thinking regarding the committee. The chairman is too meek (to be polite), a certain unnamed member was to "breathe new blood" into the club with talks of hundreds, yes hundreds of thousands of euro being raised and sadly the rest of them resemble the royal box at the start of the muppet show.
I guarantee you no other EL club has a committee like this.In fact, a junior club wouldn't last too long with one either.

[LFC in Exile]

Joe, you're starting to unnerve me now.

Sounds like you are going to take out a few of them.....:)

[JohnD]

Maybe we need to do a weapons check at the gate tomorrow night!!:p .

We were talking at the last meeting about Family and Die Hard sections (Leave the string vests at home!) and I was wondering what do ye think.? Should we start this tomorrow night? behind the Car-Park Goal maybe?

[sadloserkid]

If you're putting the family section behind the car park goal then that sounds fine John... :p

Seriously it's a bit unfair to consign either group to a spot behind either goal (restricting the view of the game). I feel that the hardcore should be left where they are behind the dugouts and the more family minded/less vocal should be encouraged to watch the match from directly opposite there.


Originally posted by LFC in Exile
Joe, you're starting to unnerve me now.

Sounds like you are going to take out a few of them.....:)

The Supporters Club can run a book on who's most likely to go! And maybe another on who's most likely to be behind the trigger! ;)

[deise deserter]

... it'd probably just be a publicity stunt like Dallas did - you know, to raise that 200 Grand we already have in the bank! ;) Think of the follow-up marketing we could have - Lim FC Cludeo, etc, they'ld go great with our jerseys, badges, scarves, hats, ....

I think that placing both enclosures opposite each other would be the best. Both can get a good view of the games from the half-way lines.

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by deise deserter
I think that placing both enclosures opposite each other would be the best. Both can get a good view of the games from the half-way lines.

And we can make rude gestures across the divide! :D

That's a joke by the way and shouldn't be taken seriously!

Being realistic again though I think it's only fair that the family enclosure is moved as it's members of that group who want to see some action here. The more vocal grouping haven't pushed for this change and as a result I think it's only fair to move those who have a problem with the current arrangement and no those who would have been happy to leave things as they are.

[JohnD]

Sounds good to me boys!!. We can raise it at the meeting the next night and get it up and running. I like where we stand at the moment and our big Man prob wont leave his traditional position. It would not be the same if we wernt able to hear the comments !!:D

[deise deserter]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
And we can make rude gestures across the divide! :D

That's a joke by the way and shouldn't be taken seriously!

Being realistic again though I think it's only fair that the family enclosure is moved as it's members of that group who want to see some action here. The more vocal grouping haven't pushed for this change and as a result I think it's only fair to move those who have a problem with the current arrangement and no those who would have been happy to leave things as they are.

BAM!! You have it SLK!!! :D

I'm all for them moving for a couple of reasons:

1. As you said - they want to be separated (wondering why they haven't thought to move to another side already themselves...)

2. As infantile as it sounds - the die-hards were there first.

Enclosures aside, I think it is ridiculously childish for people to say that constructive criticism of players and the club shouldn't be allowed. In other businesses this is called customer feedback. It is used to improve the product, satisfy existing customers and to lure new ones on board. Millions of euros is spent on this in Ireland alone!

The big thing at the last Supporters' Club meeting was PR. The image of the club in the eyes of the community was seen as lacking. There are numerous reasons, surely criticism will help the club improve themselves and place them in a better situation both in the eyes of the public and financially. People should be looking for this to happen, not trying to stop it.

Paul Finucane's mother said it best at the last meeting:
"My Paul says that once they pay their money at the gate, they can say whatever they want."

All I can say to this is well done Paul - you're a professional. Here's to more like you.

[JohnD]

Fair Play to Paul. He has the right attitude. I have never heard of supporters not being allowed to criticise their team, albeit in a constructive fashion. Would Mick mcCarthy have left if we had a "love in" at the Switzerland Game..Doh! I dont think so. There is obviously a fine line between criticising because you care and abuse. This is the line beyond which we cannot go.

Peace, Love and Understanding are all very well but sometimes you have gotta kick ass !!:D ..(Sorry mr.Csotello for quoting out of context)

[sadloserkid]

Yeah but the impression I got is that there were complaints of criticism of Limerick players by Limerick fans. That's minimal and certainly nothing to do with me! I don't agree with it but again take the attitude that once people pay at the get they can say anything that isn't racist.

I do take offence however at people whose minds seem to work as follows:

1. The internet is responsible for all society's evils. This includes the booing of Limerick players by their own fans. For proof of this watch Cornation St which clearly showed how the internet is evil, evil, evil

2. slk has a ponytail. In fact, he looks like he's familiar with the internet. Questionable facial hair too...

ergo =>

3. The internet causes Limerick fans to abuse Limerick players. slk appears to be the most computer-nerdish of Limerick fans so clearly he is behind any instances of Limerick fans criticising their own players.

These people... :rolleyes:

Opposition fans and refs? I'm guilty as hell of getting at them but I do nothing but support our players when they're on the pitch and there's nobody around who can say otherwise.

[parnell ranger]

I guarantee you no other EL club has a committee like this.In fact, a junior club wouldn't last too long with one either.

Ours is worse!:D

[joeSoap]

To be fair, only one individual has blackened the name of Limerick supporters both at the ground and on the net, and he's not allowed in to home games any more. Rightly so in my opinion. The way that man spoke about Noel O'Connor in particular was disgusting to say the least, and from what I hear, he's lucky O'Connor didn't have him arrested over some of the comments he made, both online and at games.Quality PR begins with self portrayal and I feel that the die-hard element of support this club has is a credit to all involved. I think a seat on the committee is the only way forward from here.

[Howard Hughes]

I gather the issue of family and hardcore sections, bad language and all that came up since the meeting after the Galway game and I'm glad it did. I must be getting old and sensitive but I have to say that some of the language out of the hardcore Limerick fans has been a tad rough. I know it's game and things get heated, I understand that, but to call some of the stuff said 'constructive criticism' is far-fetched on Deise's part.
Don't get me wrong, the offensive outbursts are the exception rather than the norm and generally, it's all quite funny and part of the game, but I think it might be prudent not to appear to be patronising those who find extreme bad language offensive.
Suggesting that the family types go to the opposite side of the pitch is a fine idea and it'd be worth while ensuring that people are aware of this and are not put off after a few visits to the hardcore side.

Anyway lads, keep up the good work - ye're a credit to the eL.

[Howard Hughes]

I just want to clarify that the Waterford utd avatar has nothing to do with me! I must have chose it by mistake when registering. How can I change it or get rid of it?

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Howard Hughes
I just want to clarify that the Waterford utd avatar has nothing to do with me! I must have chose it by mistake when registering. How can I change it or get rid of it?

Howard Hughes, do the following...

1. Acess the 'Control' menu at the top of your screen
2. Hit 'Edit Options'
3. Right down at the end of that screen is 'Change Avatar'

Hope that helps. PM me if you need more information...

[LFC in Exile]

Originally posted by deise deserter
I think it is ridiculously childish for people to say that constructive criticism of players and the club shouldn't be allowed.

Who said that? I can't remember anyone saying that constructive criticism shouldn't be allowed.

As John implied there is a huge difference between constructive criticism and abuse. Is it constructive to roar at a player than he is a waste of space or "that's f#ing terrible". When a player f ucks up I think they know it and don't need us to tell them.

What I took from the meeting and what I understood as one of the aims of the SC is to present a positive image of Limerick fans at home and away matches - and in turn a positive image of Limerick. We're all going to get annoyed and frustrated by our own players, the ref, the opposition - but the basic reason we are there (I think) is to support the team and our players. It is not possible to constructively criticise from behind the wall when a player plays a shocking pass or something. But getting on the players case doesn't help.

Paul Finucane's quote is interesting. I agree that players can be criticised (I have to keep saying that so I am not taken up wrong) but it must be hard to hear your son, husband, brother whatever getting abuse from people who are wearing the same jersey he is.

There is a small step from a fan saying "I paid my money I can say what I like" to a player saying "I get paid my money, screw what the fans think" (I am not syaing Paul thinks this.) When we pay money it is to support the club - to pay players wages etc. we pay it because we want to support the club. Players respond to support (as we all do) and they also repsond to abuse.

This, just like the other issues, is not black and white.

I think it is kind of sad that we are talking about moving fans to one side of the ground etc. There aren't that many fans up there. We should be trying to encourage people to come to matches - not tell them that if they want to come they have to stand over there or hear an ear full of abuse.

[sadloserkid]

First of all I want to say that I don't agree with criticising our own players. The worst I've done (to one of ours) is maybe go "Ah Player X..." when they misplace a pass, usually followed up with a "Hard luck Player X, keep going man!" I think that criticising our players is completely counter-productive. Like you LFC In Exile, I feel I have to keep stressing this, in my case so as to make people aware of the fact that I'm not the petulent thug some people seem to think.

However one of the reasons our home form was so abject last year is because there was no atmosphere in the ground, the number of partizan supporters in the ground was minimal unless somebody like Harps or Waterford brought a big crowd in which case we were inevitably and embarrassingly outshouted by the travelling support. Now it's felt by some that we need to be even quieter. It's a football match, not a library!


Originally posted by LFC in Exile
I think it is kind of sad that we are talking about moving fans to one side of the ground etc. There aren't that many fans up there. We should be trying to encourage people to come to matches - not tell them that if they want to come they have to stand over there or hear an ear full of abuse.

I look at that the other way. I think it's kinda sad that people could be told if they want to come they have to stand quietly, applaud all efforts and remain 100% positive at all times. What next, a sheet of slogans to encourage the team that's been pre-approved by the club? Perhaps even a Kangaroo court to try offenders? I think it's kinda sad that some people effectively tried to enforce censorship at a football ground. The 'enclosures' are a compromise and a way to placate both camps if they're reasonable enough to accept it. We'll see.

[LFC in Exile]

First off - I am not addressing my previosu post at anyone in particular. In fact I couldn't follow what you were saying about the internet thing above. :)


Originally posted by sadloserkid
However one of the reasons our home form was so abject last year is because there was no atmosphere in the ground, the number of partizan supporters in the ground was minimal unless somebody like Harps or Waterford brought a big crowd in which case we were inevitably and embarrassingly outshouted by the travelling support. Now it's felt by some that we need to be even quieter. It's a football match, not a library!

So why not chant and support? How many had Galway at the last game? 20? But they sang and their side were really awful. I didn't hear anything from them towards their own players either - even when they were a goal down and looked dreadful. The players kept playing - they got their goal. I just think that that is an example to us.

And I don't think that abuse of our players is a big issue (anyone reading this thread would think it is). But this can be looked at two ways. Either you see it as "I must stay quiet" or as make some positive noise.

[sadloserkid]

Ok, my take on it is that all noise directed towards your own players should be positive. They're our team after all right? Hand on heart I feel I make more positive pro-Limerick noise than most up there (I'll also hold up my hand and admit that I make more negative noise towards opposition players too). I would love if we sang our hearts out every game for Limerick. In fact if you promise to join in tonight we can even give it a go!?! ;)

[JohnD]

I think LFC in exile makes a lot of sense. The Galway game was a prime example of great fans. Harps were the same last year. The Last time we have sung at a match other than the Stevo Chant is when Derry Shamed us into singing ("Shall we sing a song for you") at the League Cup final 1st leg.

Why dont we get together and get some Chants organised. I t will have the dual function of creating a better atmosphere and also drowning out any "out of order" Fans.

Lets surprise oppossition fans who are not expecting to hear anything this year !!

[joeSoap]

Now that lapellos has been raided, we could procure some lapdancers to become cheerleaders. This is bound to increase attendances....just kidding..(or am I??)

[deise deserter]

LFC in Exile:
Get the distinct impression that you will be going to the other side then?;)

It was my post you were talking about when you mentioned "constructive criticism." Personally I don't think I have heard anyone "abuse" players with the exception of Lims Fan.

I think no-one really gets on our players backs. There has been some mumbled stuff about Healy recently, but all deserved and always followed up with a louder comment to get his spirits back up. We are "supporters" after all.

I really don't think that what is being said about our own players is an issue at the moment. All our fans currently attending the games respect the players. I think the real problem is the language used against refs and opposing players, and I believe that is the only real "problem" that needs to be sorted.

Are you making the game this evening btw?

[BlueisBeautiful]

.... with Deise here, I think this abuse of the players thing is being blown out of porportion when as far I can tell I havent heard any Limerick players "abused" by any limerick fans in a long, long time. By the way sorry about my abscence from the supporters meeting after Kildare game but had to leave early! I'll be there next time, keep me up to date lads.