12 year old boy beats toddler to death with a baseball bat

[Block G Raptor]

Because the 17 month was crying while he was trying to watch TV (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1299492,00.html)

Maybe if he wasn't watching so much TV he wouldn't have such messed up Ideas on the value of Human life. Hope they try him as an adult and melt the key

[Risteard]

No offence BGR, but you seem to be a likely candidate for these Fox-newsesque "society is gone to pieces, where are our values?" type stories.:ball:

Why, dare I ask should he be tried as an adult?

[anto1208]

You can't beat a todler with a baseball bat now ..... PC gone mad

[Block G Raptor]

No offence BGR, but you seem to be a likely candidate for these Fox-newsesque "society is gone to pieces, where are our values?" type stories.:ball:

Why, dare I ask should he be tried as an adult?

Firstly it doesn't say anything about society gone to pieces in the actual article it was solely my opinion. I think he should be tried as an adult as if he's not he'll be in a young offenders center for a couple of years and that'll be it. I think his crime deserves more punishment

[superfrank]

He's only 12 years old. There's no way he should be tried as an adult. He just wanted the kid to shut up, I don't think he really understood what killing the child meant.

[Lim till i die]

Maybe if he wasn't watching so much TV he wouldn't have such messed up Ideas on the value of Human life.

It's all TVs fault :eek: :eek:

What next Block G, a crusade against the evils of the internet?? :rolleyes:

[gee wizz]

Because the 17 month was crying while he was trying to watch TV (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1299492,00.html)

Maybe if he wasn't watching so much TV he wouldn't have such messed up Ideas on the value of Human life. Hope they try him as an adult and melt the key

Just an idea but who in there right mind would leave there 12 year old son babysit two children while they headed out shopping or out socialising,in my opinion the parents have let down all three kids in this case,and as for trying him as an adult shouldnt the parents face some charges as well i.e child neglect,child abondement?:mad:

[Block G Raptor]

It's all TVs fault :eek: :eek:



Obviously it's not TV's fault, but you have to ask yourself is there not something wrong that when something is so all consuming that someone would kill a family member to enable himself to enjoy it uninterrupted. Scary, very very, scary

[osarusan]

Block G, why do you think the law makes distinctions between crimes committed by adults and crimes committed by juveniles?

[Block G Raptor]

I don't think he really understood what killing the child meant.

I know where you're coming from, but come on these days some 12 year old's are drinking, doing drug's, having Sex. My 8 year old step daughter would have a fair concept of what death is, at 12 I'd expect most people to fully understand "If you beat your baby brother with a baseball bat he will die, and when he's dead that means he's not coming back ever"

Block G, why do you think the law makes distinctions between crimes committed by adults and crimes committed by juveniles?
I understand that Osarasan. but where do you draw the line? In this country you've to be 16 before you can be charged with most crimes and yet we have 14/15 year old's running amok with impunity because they know they are "untouchable". I know some teenagers that are as mature as your average twentysomething and some so called adults that are as about as mature as a box of tissues. there should be some kind of assessment made as to whether a minor is mature enough to understand what they are doing and be tried accordingly

[Lim till i die]

Obviously it's not TV's fault, but you have to ask yourself is there not something wrong that when something is so all consuming that someone would kill a family member to enable himself to enjoy it uninterrupted.

Something wrong with the way the child was reared maybe


Scary, very very, scary

Jesus Wept

Are you serious

[Block G Raptor]

Something wrong with the way the child was reared maybe


Obviously he was reared in front of a TV set

[Lim till i die]

Obviously he was reared in front of a TV set

And that's the TVs fault??

[Block G Raptor]

Where did I ever say it was TV's Fault

[Lim till i die]

Where did I ever say it was TV's Fault

Nowhere

But your insinuation here:


Maybe if he wasn't watching so much TV he wouldn't have such messed up Ideas on the value of Human life

that TV was somehow responsible for his behaviour as opposed to, I don't know, his parents or someone similar, is frankly laughable

[osarusan]

there should be some kind of assessment made as to whether a minor is mature enough to understand what they are doing and be tried accordingly

You didn't mention this when you said you hope "they try him as an adult and melt the key."

[Block G Raptor]

You didn't mention this when you said you hope "they try him as an adult and melt the key."

True I didn't, Knee Jerk reaction I suppose. should have said they should do a psychological/Maturity evaluation and then try him based on the findings
and if he is as mature as your average twelve year old then that would satisfy me that he knew precisely what he was doing and should be duly tried as such



that TV was somehow responsible for his behaviour as opposed to, I don't know, his parents or someone similar, is frankly laughable

TV is not directly responsible for his actions, although chances are his parents Idea of how to rear a child is plonk them in front of a TV to shut them up.
The point I was making was that TV had become so important to this child that he was prepared to kill so as not to have his enjoyment spoiled, for me that sounds like a serious obsession

[osarusan]

True I didn't, Knee Jerk reaction I suppose. should have said they should do a psychological/Maturity evaluation and then try him as an adult and melt the key
perhaps "should have said they should do a psychological/Maturity evaluation and then try him according to the results of the psychological/maturity evaluation" would be better.

(Unless you've already made up your mind on the issue without having enough information to make a fair decision)

[kingdom hoop]

there should be some kind of assessment made as to whether a minor is mature enough to understand what they are doing

Practical impossibility really though isn't it? For one thing, if the kid is mature enough to appreciate the repercussions of his actions then he'll realise he needs to lie when assessed. Also, what parent/teacher/football coach could reasonably say that they knew that kid was not alone pure evil but knew precisely the depravity of his actions?

In other words I don't think there's much tinkering you can do with the law, and so we look to broader society to help... :( ie it's probably best not to think about it!

But anyway, I have done so the odd dreary Tuesday evening in November, alone, in a cold, dark room and generally have come to the realisation that the school system desperately lacks a 'life preparation, moral-teaching' string to its out of tune bow. Of course that would never stop accidents like this one, but would definitely ameliorate society as a whole. But I suppose that belongs more in the 'your ideal school system' thread, which I plaintively urge you to open. :)

[Lim till i die]

TV is not directly responsible for his actions, although chances are his parents Idea of how to rear a child is plonk them in front of a TV to shut them up.


Yep, I blame the parents


The point I was making was that TV had become so important to this child that he was prepared to kill so as not to have his enjoyment spoiled, for me that sounds like a serious obsession

Well D'uh

But IMO with this bit here:


Maybe if he wasn't watching so much TV he wouldn't have such messed up Ideas on the value of Human life.

And this bit here:


you have to ask yourself is there not something wrong that when something is so all consuming that someone would kill a family member to enable himself to enjoy it uninterrupted.

You were trying to attach unfair blame to the "Evils of Television" ala (irony alert) the shock jocks on Sky News and the like

[Block G Raptor]

perhaps "should have said they should do a psychological/Maturity evaluation and then try him according to the results of the psychological/maturity evaluation" would be better.

(Unless you've already made up your mind on the issue without having enough information to make a fair decision)

Whoa thats weird, I just edited the post pretty much to what you're suggesting at the same time you were typing it . spooky :D

I was a bit flippant at the start of thread admittedly, Just got really worked up reading that.(maybe Risteard was right:( ) suppose what I meant was am Sick of seeing little scrotes getting off lightly because "Ah he's only a Nipper, give him a chance" mentality. I cant speak for The 12 year old concerned here because as osarasan fairly points out I don't have enough information, But lets say he's a member of a gang, string of juvie convictions, gun under his pillow etc. if this is the case should he still be triesd as a child?

[noby]

True I didn't, Knee Jerk reaction I suppose. should have said they should do a psychological/Maturity evaluation and then try him based on the findings
and if he is as mature as your average twelve year old then that would satisfy me that he knew precisely what he was doing and should be duly tried as such

This thread is going nowhere fast, but just to say, by your test, if he is found to be "as mature as your average twelve year old" then being "duly tried as such" surely means being tried as a juvenile; a fact that seems to have you up in arms.

[Block G Raptor]

This thread is going nowhere fast, but just to say, by your test, if he is found to be "as mature as your average twelve year old" then being "duly tried as such" surely means being tried as a juvenile; a fact that seems to have you up in arms.
If you read back over my post's you'll see that I said your average 12year old would fully understand the meaning of Death/Murder, When I said should be tried accordingly it was to this i was reffering. I believe that most teenagers are fully mature enough to be held accountable for there action's. (and before anyone points out that twelve is not a teenager I know but a few months either side doesn't make a whole heap of difference) and Law should duly reflect this.
think about it, look at 12 yearolds 20-50 years ago and look at them now, Big difference? I'd say so, I'd also say TV/internet have had a huge effect on this change for both good and bad

[superfrank]

I know where you're coming from, but come on these days some 12 year old's are drinking, doing drug's, having Sex. My 8 year old step daughter would have a fair concept of what death is, at 12 I'd expect most people to fully understand "If you beat your baby brother with a baseball bat he will die, and when he's dead that means he's not coming back ever"
Yeah I know all too well but what 12 year old truely understands the consequences of their actions. They'd be very mature for their age if they did. I'm not excusing the fact that the kid killed the other one and he should be punished but locking him up for life is a bit harsh when the criminal is not a fully grown, fully mentally developed adult.

[Wolfie]

It's all TVs fault :eek: :eek:


I know Terry Venebles is topical at the moment but is he really capable of compelling a child to murder? Does the committee know?

[jebus]

I know Terry Venebles is topical at the moment but is he really capable of compelling a child to murder? Does the committee know?

He's brought me to the point of homicide many times, so I'd be willing to take the stand against him.

As for the main point of this thread, he should be tried as a juvenile because he is one. Twelve year olds don't have a true value of life, hence why they are happy to jump off of cliffs into the sea without knowing how shallow the water is, why they are willing to walk along bridge railings with fast moving water below them, why they dart in out of moving traffic on bicycles and why they do numerous other things we all are afraid to do as we get older and realise how fragile we actually are

[KevB76]

Twelve year olds don't have a true value of life, hence why they are happy to jump off of cliffs into the sea without knowing how shallow the water is, why they are willing to walk along bridge railings with fast moving water below them, why they dart in out of moving traffic on bicycles and why they do numerous other things we all are afraid to do as we get older and realise how fragile we actually are

Someone's been watching Mickeybo and Me
Dont forget robbing banks and hitch-hiking to Australia :D

[gilberto_eire]

He's only 12 years old. There's no way he should be tried as an adult. He just wanted the kid to shut up, I don't think he really understood what killing the child meant.

in fairness i was up to some amount at the age of 12, its not like he's 6/7. should be tried as an adult after all he's either in/going into 1st yr in school. 12yr olds can tell right from wrong and a lot more mind you.
of course a 12yr old can understand what death is......

[Lim till i die]

in fairness i was up to some amount at the age of 12,...

Hooray for you :rolleyes:


should be tried as an adult after all he's either in/going into 1st yr in school.

WTF?!?! :D

You want to read over things before you submit them man

[sullanefc]

But anyway, I have done so the odd dreary Tuesday evening in November, alone, in a cold, dark room and generally have come to the realisation that the school system desperately lacks a 'life preparation, moral-teaching' string to its out of tune bow. Of course that would never stop accidents like this one, but would definitely ameliorate society as a whole. But I suppose that belongs more in the 'your ideal school system' thread, which I plaintively urge you to open. :)

As a secondary school teacher myself, I have to disagree with what is posted in bold above. I work in a school where there is a large amount of students with social problems, poor moral values and very poor manners.

Trust me, if kids are reared in this way, then it is very hard for a teacher to change his/her ways. You can teach them how to behave, treat other people or speak to their elders until the cows come home, but if the same is not being done at home then you are p*ssing against the wind.

These sort of moral teachings SHOULD IMO start at home.

Back on topic, its a very sad story. Whether the child should be convicted as an adult or a child is a thorny one, but one thing is for sure, 12 year olds today know a lot more than they did 15-20 years ago when I was growing up.


Hooray for you :rolleyes:



WTF?!?! :D

You want to read over things before you submit them man

LTID, I have yet to see your reasoned (if thats possible) opinion on this topic. All you seem to be doing is nit picking other peoples posts, and quite childishly too.

If it were a criminal offence to be really annoying, I would be convicting you as a child rather than an adult.

[Lim till i die]

LTID, I have yet to see your reasoned (if thats possible) opinion on this topic. All you seem to be doing is nit picking other peoples posts, and quite childishly too.

I would have thought the right opinion on whether a 12 year old is a child or an adult would be patently obvious??


If it were a criminal offence to be really annoying, I would be convicting you as a child rather than an adult

And if there was a law against poorly made attmpts at wit.................

[dahamsta]

Lim till i die, I agree with sullanefc, your contributions in this thread have been close to worthless. Either knock the "witty" remarks on the head and try to input something of value, or stay out of the Current Affairs forum until you're able.

Back on top now please, everyone. Now means now, I don't want any responses to my post, whether positive or negative.

adam

[BohsPartisan]

If a 12 year old can be tried as an adult then they should have the vote, be able to consent to sex, should be out working etc. etc. You can't pick and choose. Either they are an adult or not.

[gilberto_eire]

[RUBBISH DELETED. --adam]

on topic.... and ya in our country a 12yr old would be going into 1st in secondary school if not already there..... 12 is a few yrs over the ''he's just a child'' crap IMO!

[BohsPartisan]

..... 12 is a few yrs over the ''he's just a child'' crap IMO!

So you agree that an adult could have consensual sex with a 12 year old? After all "12 is a few yrs over the ''he's just a child'' crap"

[micls]

on topic.... and ya in our country a 12yr old would be going into 1st in secondary school if not already there..... 12 is a few yrs over the ''he's just a child'' crap IMO!
What 'he's just a child' crap? NO ones saying leave him off cos he's a child.

But he is a child. There is no disputing this.

And so he should be tried as one.

Whether the sentencing for children is fair or harsh enough on some occasions is a separate matter.

He is a child.

[sullanefc]

What 'he's just a child' crap? NO ones saying leave him off cos he's a child.

But he is a child. There is no disputing this.

And so he should be tried as one.

Whether the sentencing for children is fair or harsh enough on some occasions is a separate matter.

He is a child.

Of course he is still a child. What I think most people are saying here is that 12 year olds nowadays are way more clued in than in years gone by.

That said, from my experience, they may act older, look older and dress older, deep down they are still immature by and large.

While an adult custodial sentence would neither be fair nor good for the boy, I would hope that he would get some serious phsychological councilling for a long time after this. Firstly to get his head around this incident but secondly to try and rectify his reasoning for doing this.

IMO a 12 year old SHOULD know the difference between right and wrong and a 12 year old that beats a baby to death with a baseball bat is seriously not right in the head.

[gilberto_eire]

So you agree that an adult could have consensual sex with a 12 year old? After all "12 is a few yrs over the ''he's just a child'' crap"

its got nothing to do with all other things.... the only way he will get what he deserves is been tried as an adult, all ppl want is justice which can only be properly served if he is tried as one!

[rambler14]

Only in America.
As punishment why don't they get someone to beat him with a baseball bat. Show him what it's like.

More to the point whats a 12 year old doing babysitting?

[jebus]

its got nothing to do with all other things.... the only way he will get what he deserves is been tried as an adult, all ppl want is justice which can only be properly served if he is tried as one!

It's got everything to do with 'all the other crap'. If we're going to say that a child has a proper reasoning on the value of life, then clearly they must have an understanding of the harms of substance abuse and sexual behaviour, and so anyone convicted of sexual assault on a minor (say a 49 year old man and a 13 year old girl) could ask for a retrial on the grounds that 12 year olds are now considered adults

[gilberto_eire]

It's got everything to do with 'all the other crap'. If we're going to say that a child has a proper reasoning on the value of life, then clearly they must have an understanding of the harms of substance abuse and sexual behaviour, and so anyone convicted of sexual assault on a minor (say a 49 year old man and a 13 year old girl) could ask for a retrial on the grounds that 12 year olds are now considered adults

a young teenager can be easily munipulated into satisfying some dirty pervert, they can also be easily lead to believe lots of things...... that has nothing to do with wanting proper justice against a sick minded 12yr old who decided to beat a child to death because he was annoying him!.

ive come across some mean characters when i was growing up who have turned out to be nasty pieces of stuff in adult life...however none would have done to previous mentioned crime... on the basis of that id say this 12 yr old could be a very dangerous individual in the coming years. in the interest of public safety he shouldnt be released until he's well into his 20's.

[osarusan]

a young teenager can be easily manipulated into satisfying some dirty pervert, they can also be easily lead to believe lots of things.

Because their minds are immature.


that has nothing to do with wanting proper justice against a sick minded 12yr old who decided to beat a child to death because he was annoying him!.


Gilberto, psychologists, social workers, whoever...all around the world have been charged with the responsibility of deciding where to draw the line between adults and juveniles in a legal sense, and have come to the conclusion that 12 year-old people are not adults, at least in a legal sense.

They feel that to try them as an adult would be unfair and the sentence they receive would not be "proper justice".