Liverpool

[Angus]

Why is it that there is no group of supporters who get more defensive than Liverpool fans ?

The boys on RTE have legitimate pops at the coach and the players (notwithstanding the obvious media agenda the guys have to "sell" their "product") and they get howls of derision.

Disastrous result for Liverpool last night and I was genuinely staggered to see the manager start with one striker. Now, I don't rate Gerrard as a central midfielder - give me Scholes, Fabregas, Essien, Makelele, Ballack (in his day), Keane (ditto), Rui Costa (ditto), Vieira etc etc any day but I do rate him as a quasi third striker behind the front 2.

Not sure where he played last night i.e. was he a striker ? Has Rafa lost the plot ? The impression you get (obviously we don't know what is going on behind the scenes) is that he is a control freak and that he does not trust the players to just go and play and win.

Not that it was really on but you would now think the league is gone.

It is a pity because the EPL needs other credible contenders - ManU, Arse and Chelse have won 14 of the last 15 PL titles - but at this stage, you would think that Liverpool are a few players, and a decent manager short of the league title.

Yours knowing that this post will be resurrected in May if................


Angus

[reder]

The boys on RTE have legitimate pops at the coach and the players.

Dont be soft. They panel on RTE have a serious anti-lfc agenda that goes far beyond having legitimate pops at the players. The criticism handed out to lfc officials and players is far worse than any other club. They even criticised them on the night they won the european cup!!


Not sure where he played last night i.e. was he a striker ? Has Rafa lost the plot ?

So you decided to post a new thread based on a game that you didnt even see.

[Dodge]

Why is it that there is no group of supporters who get more defensive than Liverpool fans ?



Dont be soft. They panel on RTE have a serious anti-lfc agenda...

Yep, you proved him wrong.

[Hibs4Ever]

Liverpool will never win the league under Benitez - FACT

[elroy]

Liverpool will never win the league under Benitez - FACT

Funny thing is the closest the mighty pool have come to winning the league over the last 20 or so years was when Roy Evans was in charge!

[shakermaker1982]

Liverpool don't have the players to seriously mount a title challenge. If Torres and Gerrard are having off nights where are the goals going to come from? Babel, Kuty and Crouch?!! They'd need to spend another 60 million before they can even dream of challenging a top 2 spot. Liverpool are a good cup side, to win the league you need to be consistent for 9 months.

[JoeSemi]

I've started to take the rose-tinted glasses off at this stage after another inept performance against such a mediocre team. I've staunchly defended Rafa on most things but his stubborness will be the ending of him imo.

The Americans are no fools and they can see the flaws in this Liverpool team. Rafa has had money to spend and yet some of those he has spent it on have proven, like so many before them, to be short of the standard required to play for Liverpool (Kuyt, Sissoko, Voronin).

Last night was another case of waiting on Harry Kewell to perform, but I think he'll keep us waiting! Playing Gerrard off Torres was stupid as every man and his dog knows he's better breaking from deeper and being involved in every facet of the game. You don't play with one striker at home and it showed in Torres' game that he was tired by the end when he had to carry the can for so long.

If they don't make progress on last season it would be a major disappointment, and as things look it seems ever more likely. Rafa has done it before when all doubted him so it may be only fair to see what this January window brings and what direction the rest of the season takes.

[mypost]

Dont be soft. They panel on RTE have a serious anti-lfc agenda that goes far beyond having legitimate pops at the players. The criticism handed out to lfc officials and players is far worse than any other club. They even criticised them on the night they won the european cup!!

I gave up on their rants after their declaration that the 8-0 win against Besiktas was not a good performance. :confused::eek::rolleyes:

[ramsfan]

Liverpool will never win the league under Benitez - FACT


liverpool will never win the league until they get 2 proper ball playing centre halfs who can play in the way of post ie hansen/lawrenson
carragher is strong but is a hoofer, all his partners dont seem up to much

[JoeSemi]

liverpool will never win the league until they get 2 proper ball playing centre halfs who can play in the way of post ie hansen/lawrenson
carragher is strong but is a hoofer, all his partners dont seem up to much

I take it you've seen very little of Daniel Agger then? Huge loss and as good a ball playing centre half as there is for his age.

Biggest problem is Rafa's unwillingness to play Crouch alongside Torres and stick to a 4-4-2 and take games to teams; be it Inter, Arsenal or Wigan.

[dfx-]

Liverpool are having some slight, minor teething problems, but it is to be expected with the current side..the expectations are far too great. I would also bank on Titus Bramble trying that shot another 1000 times and not score.

However the much vaunted RTÉ panel do have a very slanted opinion of Liverpool and will change their minds depending on the result. They are not even consistent in their criticism.

It's zonal marking, no wait - it's the rotation system, no wait, it's Gerrard, no wait it's Kuyt, no wait, it's Benitez, no wait, it's the likes of Bellamy and Sissoko. If I hear Ray Houghton saying "space never scores goals" again, I'll put my head through the tv screen. This against a Liverpool side who are often amongst the tightest defences in the league.

Although, sides like Utd would never lose two goals in succession from set-pieces with their vastly superior marking system, oh no...;)

[NeilMcD]

Liverpool have not creativity in their team not one bit. You cannot win a league without having a creative player. Gerrard is bash bang wallop which is fine and torres is pace and a good finisher but they have no number ten as they call it. Alonso is good but has been injured and does most of his best work from deep lying positions. They need a Hleb, Rosicky,. Rooney Tevez player who can pass and beat players and they need good wingers. Not enough match winners.

But their hard working solid base gets them through in tight two legged affairs.

[Angus]

It is worth noting that Liverpool are clearly a decent side - they have a few top class players and would clearly beat most sides in the EPL regularly. I cannot see them finishing any lower than 4th.

I think where the criticism comes from is that they are not judged by the standards of Everton, Man City and Spurs, they are judged by the standards of Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U and despite Chelsea having a disruptive season (losing the coach, Sheva continuing to be crap, key injuries to marquee players) they remain 6 points ahead of Pool, notwithstanding the game in hand.

You don't get the sense of gay abandon when Liverpool play - it is all a bit stifled and is lacking something. To be fair to the RTE punters, it is in that context they Pool get more criticism than others. Arse and Man U are geenrally a joy to watch - Liverpool seldom are.

[placid casual]

the loss of agger has affected liverpool greatly and it would appear they haven no decent cover for him. ergo-hypia.
alonso has been out injured and they have no decnt cover for him
they have one good striker and utter dross around him.

harry kewell is no longer a footballer.

the signing of the guy from zenit will shore up their defence but the options going forward are just not there.

manu,arsenal & chelsea have similar injuries but young guys who are up and coming.
benitez is a failed mamager.
sorry.

[4tothefloor]

Liverpool will never win the league under Benitez - FACT
Agree completely. Benitez is nothing more than Houllier mark II, a slightly better version, but going backwards after 4 years all the same


liverpool will never win the league until they get 2 proper ball playing centre halfs who can play in the way of post ie hansen/lawrenson
carragher is strong but is a hoofer, all his partners dont seem up to much
Agree again. Carragher is lauded because he is a decent defender but mostly because he's a Scouser who fights for the shirt. However there are serious deficiencies in his game. His all round game is poor, his passing and distribution from the back is crap and unless he is playing alongside a pacy defender he tends to struggle. He would not get in to the Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea sides. Isn't technically astute enough and wouldn't offer enough in general play going forward. You could make an arguement for City too. Ultimately in the grand scheme of things another defender of Aggers ilk is required, the day when all that is required of a defender is to defend is long gone and Carragher is of this breed. Agger has been a colossal loss this season as with Hyypia and Carragher all that's happening from the back is mind numbing hoofball. A waste of time having the likes of Torres with these boys hoofing everything. Riise is another one that has to be moved on for the same reasons. They could certainly hang on to Carragher, but only as cover in my opinion as a classier more technical player is needed. U look at Vidic, Ferdinand, Terry, Carvalho, Gallas, Toure - They can all defend as well as Carragher can, but they're all far superior going forward and from set pieces. Carragher offers nothing in this regard, apart from the hoof.



Biggest problem is Rafa's unwillingness to play Crouch alongside Torres and stick to a 4-4-2 and take games to teams; be it Inter, Arsenal or Wigan.
Crouch is not good enough. If the aspirations are to win a league title and possibly repeat a European cup success, then Crouch is simply not up to this level. In any case, how the hell can you play Crouch and Torres? Crouch needs to play week in week out as the main central striker in order to be effective. That's the same role that Torres takes up, Torres plays centrally. So do u put Crouch in the centre and shunt Torres out of his natural central position then? No you do not, and if you do you're insane! Crouch, Voronin & Kuyt all have to go. They're not good enough, simple as.


Liverpool are having some slight, minor teething problems, but it is to be expected with the current side..the expectations are far too great. I would also bank on Titus Bramble trying that shot another 1000 times and not score.

However the much vaunted RTÉ panel do have a very slanted opinion of Liverpool and will change their minds depending on the result. They are not even consistent in their criticism.
Liverpool aren't having "minor teething problems"! They are having huge problems, both on and off the pitch. On the pitch, there are fundamental problems with style of play, lack of direction, lack of understanding, lack of flow to their game. Namely, there is no building from the back, no cohesion between the defense/midfield/attack. It's rigid, stifled rubbish. They're playing the same hoofball that they played under Houllier and it's no coincidence that Carragher, Hyypia and Riise are still around. There is no real progress being made in terms of style and gameplan. After 4 years. Rafa's time is up.

Off the pitch, it's a circus. The yanks are not prepared to put their own money in to the club. Instead they are relying on loans. Which they now cannot secure due to the credit crunch in the US. Which means as we stand, that the money for the new stadium and major squad investment isn't there. And even if they secure the loan needed, squad investment will be the same as it was under David Moores - live within your means. The promised investment to make Liverpool major contenders is now all pie in the sky. And thay's not even factoring in potential cost increases between now and the prospective stadiums completion. Put simply, the yanks don't have the dosh. This is what Mark Lawrenson has been getting at this week, and there's a pretty big chance that they will be forced to sell next month, as that's the deadline for paying back their current loan to the Royal Bank of Scotland. So they may not even be around to give Rafa the sack, which could be his only saving grace...... On the plus side the yanks would probably be bought out by the Sheikh and DIC, who wipe their arses with banknotes.


the loss of agger has affected liverpool greatly and it would appear they haven no decent cover for him. ergo-hypia.
alonso has been out injured and they have no decnt cover for him
they have one good striker and utter dross around him.

harry kewell is no longer a footballer.

the signing of the guy from zenit will shore up their defence but the options going forward are just not there.

manu,arsenal & chelsea have similar injuries but young guys who are up and coming.
benitez is a failed mamager.
sorry.
Pretty much spot on. Crouch, Voronin, Kuyt, Kewell, Sissoko and Riise are not good enough and have to be moved on. Hyypia is past it, but the new signing should look after that. Pennant is not delivering, literally. He breezes past players but his final ball/delivery is appalling. Aurelio is always injured. The jury is out on Benayoun as well. Carragher is a hoofer and contributes nothing going forward. Xabi Alonso seems to be on a career downward spiral and needs to rediscover his game.

Plenty of problems there. Lots of bad buys and poor quality, examples of players not being utilised properly or the best being got out of them. Major tactical and gameplan issues. I'd have Mourinho in a shot!

[mypost]

Liverpool are having some slight, minor teething problems.

He's had €165 million over 4 years to spend, has won 4 home league games this season, rotates his side for rotation's sake, plays 1 upfront at home, is 15-odd points behind in the league, but we only have minor problems.:D

If he hadn't Torres to bail him out every week, we'd be stuck in mid-table, where Newcastle are. At least they have genuine problems.

[Roadend]

He's had €165 million over 4 years to spend,

Sure he has

[Neish]

I gave up on their rants after their declaration that the 8-0 win against Besiktas was not a good performance. :confused::eek::rolleyes:


It wasn't that great a preformance, it wasn't bad but Besiktas were terrible. Same goes for United's 6-0 trashing of Newcastle at the weekend, it wasn't the fact that United were that good but more a case that Newcastle were awful

[WoodquayBoy]

Liverpool in turmoil maybe? Now appears the new owners went behind the manager's back and spoke to Klinsmann about a possible interest in taking over (according to today's Guardian). That can't be good for morale

[drinkfeckarse]

I saw a report on SSN last night suggesting that Mourinho had been contacted about the possibility of taking over in the summer and had seemed open to it.

If it's accurate then I would be delighted to get him. I wouldn't want Rafa replaced for the sake of it but if it were for someone in that calibre then I would want it to happen as soon as possible.

Mourinho may not have Rafa's technical expertise but he gets more out of his players and the rest of his staff can work on things that are maybe not his strongest point.

[shanman2]

One aspect of the season Liverpools fans are over looking is the back room staff have changed also.Pako Ayestaran left and he was a massive part of Benitez back room staff. Stating he needed to return to Spain. He sacked Steve Heighway as head of youth developement to control it himself. These withdrawls have been over looked I cant understand why, these men were important to Benitez and Liverpool. The wheels were falling off lthe wagon long before it even got to moving.

[hunt4the]

He's had €165 million over 4 years to spend, has won 4 home league games this season, rotates his side for rotation's sake, plays 1 upfront at home, is 15-odd points behind in the league, but we only have minor problems.:D

If he hadn't Torres to bail him out every week, we'd be stuck in mid-table, where Newcastle are. At least they have genuine problems.

Before fans like you turn our club into the next newcastle, to the delight of the rte panel and all the mancs posting here looking for benitez out.....

If anyone had said to you before benitez came in that the next pool manager would have won us the european cup you would have offered him a lifetime contract, people need to get a grip on reality, everyones expectations are ridiculously high these days,

Weve brought in a lot of players this summer so I for one did not expect us to challenge for the premiership this year, i can see us going all the way in the champions league fa cup though.

[gee wizz]

Before fans like you turn our club into the next newcastle, to the delight of the rte panel and all the mancs posting here looking for benitez out.....

If anyone had said to you before benitez came in that the next pool manager would have won us the european cup you would have offered him a lifetime contract, people need to get a grip on reality, everyones expectations are ridiculously high these days,

Weve brought in a lot of players this summer so I for one did not expect us to challenge for the premiership this year, i can see us going all the way in the champions league fa cup though.

the european cup was a long time ago i for one as a liverpool supporter thought that this was the year to go all out for the league,but sadly it doesn't seem to be the managers:confused:,1990 is a long time ago we are nearly coming up to the twenty year mark,all of my adult life has been taking up with the disappointment of knowing that come march or earlier in the season that are league campaign is over and we are looking to stay in the top 4 to qualify for europe or trying to win the f.a cup of even better the carling cup:o

[mypost]

If anyone had said to you before benitez came in that the next pool manager would have won us the european cup you would have offered him a lifetime contract, people need to get a grip on reality, everyones expectations are ridiculously high these days

Expecting to beat Wigan and Brum at home is a ridiculously high expectation? Expecting to be above Manchester City in the league is an ridiculously high expectation? Some people have them too low. It's the league title that is the goal here, not the EC.

I wonder would Bill Shankly or Bob Paisley be happy to finish 3rd or 4th in the league every season? :confused:

[stojkovic]

I wonder would Bill Shankly or Bob Paisley be happy to finish 3rd or 4th in the league every season? :confused:

As Paisley famously said "It hasnt been all great times since I've been here....one year we came second".

[Angus]

Well, that was interesting.

I really struggle to understand Liverpool - clearly a decent side with good players - so whey are they unconvincing ?

It was all a bit hectic, headless chicken maybe with nobody willing to take control of the thing a la Scholes / Carrick / Essien / Fabregas / Barry / Hamann.

Notwithstanding the goal, I cannot get the theory behind bringing Crouch on - even the great marlene Harewood made a much bigger impact when he came on because he kept the ball, something which Liverpool don't do.

It is a puzzle, ana engima wrapped in a riddle as to why they underachieve - the only theory I can come up with is that they are easier to play against than other top sides - stop the wingers beating the full backs and stick a holding midfielder in front of the back 2 - all of the action appears to take place in a space 15 yards by 15 yards in the centre of the pitch just outside the Villa box which is easy to defend against without nous, guile and class.

These guys will now struggle to finish fourth......

[Roadend]

- stop the wingers beating the full backs

Should be very easy enough given that Liverpool currently don't have one winger worth a damn.

[Block G Raptor]

Am really starting to think that it's time for benitez to go. Torres aside his signings this year have been brutal. as was pointed out above we don't have any decent wide players, Dirk Shyte is muck lately(I know he works hard for the team but ffs we need to see more goals)
between the Yanks and benitez they are really starting to make a right mess of the club, Don't know if the Dubai crowd would be any better but at the moment I wouldn't mind finding out

[drinkfeckarse]

Kuyt and Kewell burnt their bridges with me last night. Not good enough. Thought Mascherano had a good game but I'd be very reluctant to part with £17m for him unless that included his wages over the course of the contract.

[WoodquayBoy]

Before fans like you turn our club into the next newcastle, to the delight of the rte panel and all the mancs posting here looking for benitez out.....

I'm a Manc and the last thing I want is to see Benitez get the boot, I hope to God he stays as if he does, they'll never win the league

[papa-j]

Having watched Chelsea tonight I'm convinced that a large part Liverpools problem is down to good old work rate and conviction. Chelsea were first to every ball, won most tackles/headers/second balls and most importantly showed conviction on the ball. Compare this to Liverpool who outside of Hyppia/Carragher and Mascherano v Villa didn't seem to really show that determination to win/clear/keep the ball ( look at the defending on first and second balls for the 2 x villa goals and the amount of aimless / lost posession in the final third)

What is particuarly annoying is the inability of so called top class professionals to pass a ball 10 yards to the same jersey in a cohesive direct manner. Liverpool must be the only team to hit a team on the break across the pitch instead of directly at a defence.

There is something seriously wrong with either the tactics or the players attitude to these tactics and depending on which it is then either Rafa should move on at least 5 of these guys or step aside himself.

This is not a blip its been an issue for months and its not good enough for a club like Liverpool.

[stojkovic]

Kuyt and Kewell burnt their bridges with me last night. Not good enough. Thought Mascherano had a good game but I'd be very reluctant to part with £17m for him unless that included his wages over the course of the contract.

17m DOES include his wages over 4 or 5 years. I think its payable in advance to his 'owners' who then pay Javier. The real fee would amount to about 5m. I think he's been our 2nd best player this season after Nando.

Agree about Kewell and Kuyt.

[jmurphyc]

Despite all his goals and assists I really don't think Gerrard has been that great this season. Totally overrated.