View Full Version : AIL:Will it happen?
What do people think and will you be happy about it?
1) Yes, next August
2) Yes, within 3 years
3) Yes, within 5 years
4) Yes, but more than 5 years from now
5) No, never
I'm going for yes, within 5 years. Was tempted to say 3 but that seems very soon to me to have everything sorted.
And Yes, I'l be happy about it.
sligoman
01/01/2008, 9:23 PM
4 and no, won't be happy.
Supersaint
01/01/2008, 9:56 PM
yes within 3 years
gufcfan
01/01/2008, 10:12 PM
someone start a proper poll
khoop
01/01/2008, 11:10 PM
4) Yes, but more than 5 years from now
Happy? Time will tell. So many matters to take care of first.
Kivlehan
02/01/2008, 1:28 AM
Yes, next August.
If enough money is involved, all parties (clubs, FAI, IFA) will come to the table for their share of the fortune. UEFA and FIFA will sign off for political reasons ... how would it look for them to stand in the way of what the world will see as a politically significant event. If the formation of an All-Ireland League is portrayed as another sign of progress in the peace process, that alone could generate a lot more attention (and sponsorship) for the league.
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 8:45 AM
How can we vote on a poll when we don't what the "it" will be in terms of "will it happen." Does anyone have the the hard facts on what is proposed and how it will work. So far all I have seen and heard about are wishes lists and possibilities. The lack of detail and approval for a proposal that is supposed to start in 7 months is staggering.
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 8:48 AM
How can we vote on a poll when we don't what the "it" will be in terms of "will it happen." Does anyone have the the hard facts on what is proposed and how it will work. So far all I have seen and heard about are wishes lists and possibilities. The lack of detail and approval for a proposal that is supposed to start in 7 months is staggering.Isn't that what the negotiations are for?
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 8:52 AM
Isn't that what the negotiations are for?
What negotiations though? They haven't even begun! the story I have just posted on the G6 thread confirms that!
superfrank
02/01/2008, 8:55 AM
I'd like to see it happen but with all the league teams from both sides of the border, not a select few.
Don't really think it will happen though. UEFA aren't going to let the FAI and the IFA keep all their European places and the coefficient will not improve dramatically enough to get those places back.
Then there's the national team/association debate. FIFA and UEFA will want one team/association for one league, not two.
How can we vote on a poll when we don't what the "it" will be in terms of "will it happen." Does anyone have the the hard facts on what is proposed and how it will work. So far all I have seen and heard about are wishes lists and possibilities. The lack of detail and approval for a proposal that is supposed to start in 7 months is staggering.
If you believe its going to start in the middle of our upcoming season, no reason for you not to believe the possibilities the same papers reveal....
If an AIL starts it will be 2009 at the earliest. I'd like to see one but don't think I will
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 9:47 AM
If you believe its going to start in the middle of our upcoming season, no reason for you not to believe the possibilities the same papers reveal....
If an AIL starts it will be 2009 at the earliest. I'd like to see one but don't think I will
Those promoting it stated they wanted it to start in August this year at the meeting held last Friday with some IL clubs.
iceman
02/01/2008, 10:14 AM
Yes it WILL happen , hopefully sooner rather than later and I would go for 2010.
There will be public , private and TV money up for grabs. The money currently offered by TV3 and Setanta is an insult.
Keen2win
02/01/2008, 10:19 AM
3) but I'M not happy
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 10:29 AM
What negotiations though? They haven't even begun! the story I have just posted on the G6 thread confirms that!How do you know what discussions have gone on before and are continuing alongside what happened in Newry on Friday? The fact that details are being shared sparingly is hardly news.
Also your motives in questioning whats going on are hardly altruistic given your own club would appear to be outside the "chosen few" in the North (not that I'd be any different if Derry weren't involved).
Whilst its hard to see it happening in Sept this year, its also the case that if it moves forward having another season of "domestic" Leagues is fairly pointless and would probably see a huge reduction in crowds.
pineapple stu
02/01/2008, 10:34 AM
Possibly will happen; more than five years away though. Yes, I'd be happy to see one, but those who think it'll be a panacea for both leagues' problems are completely deluded. It's not nearly as important as people are making out.
Pablo Escobar
02/01/2008, 10:39 AM
I'm not going to guess when, but IMO it will happen.
If Sky went full on with it, it would be fantastic!
What are the chances of this though?
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 10:44 AM
How do you know what discussions have gone on before and are continuing alongside what happened in Newry on Friday?
Let's just say I have good sources within some of the main players in all this.
The fact that details are being shared sparingly is hardly news.
Remember as far as the IL clubs go, and I'm not sure if the same applies to the FAI clubs, it is not just the clubs who may be in any new league that have to been convinced given that it will have to be at least the majority the member clubs of the IFA that will have to give their blessing. Therefore in order have this all done and dusted before August you would think that some hard detail would be more forthcoming. Why have a meeting at all with the IL clubs last Friday if they were only going to give them little snippets and wish lists?
Also your motives in questioning whats going on are hardly altruistic given your own club would appear to be outside the "chosen few" in the North (not that I'd be any different if Derry weren't involved).
My Club avatar has nothing to do with any motives, if I had any. I have and continue to have an interest in the workings and 'politics' of football in general as can be seen where I spend most of my time on ILSF. Regardless is there anything wrong with me asking questions or highlighting issues with the proposal. You would almost think that people are scared of answering even the most basic of questions to do with it. With regards to my own club, whether we are in it or not it will have implications, it may even have positive ones, so Reds fans (from the real Red Army ;)) are entitled to ask questions just the same as anyone else.
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 10:45 AM
Yes, I'd be happy to see one, but those who think it'll be a panacea for both leagues' problems are completely deluded.
Correct.
jebus
02/01/2008, 11:24 AM
It will happen, but probably not for 5 or more years, but no I don't want it to happen
Sonic
02/01/2008, 11:28 AM
Its just a ridiculous ploy that only serves to squeeze out the smaller clubs from both codes. As superfrank says either everyone join up to it or scrap the idea. But knowing the Fai they will muck it up AGAIN:(:(
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 11:30 AM
Possibly will happen; more than five years away though. Yes, I'd be happy to see one, but those who think it'll be a panacea for both leagues' problems are completely deluded. It's not nearly as important as people are making out.Completely disgree.
Full-time football is not, and looks like it never will be, sustainable under the current model.
Full-time football has a better chance of being sustainable under an AIL model due to the cash on offer (lets leave aside the permanence of this cashflow). Thats not to say that definitively it will be sustainable, but at least it has a chance.
That makes it important.
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 11:38 AM
Full-time football has a better chance of being sustainable under an AIL model due to the cash on offer (lets leave aside the permanence of this cashflow). Thats not to say that definitively it will be sustainable, but at least it has a chance.
The proposers admitted last week at the meeting that they have not put together a business plan yet, so on what basis are you claiming it has a chance?
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 12:30 PM
The proposers admitted last week at the meeting that they have not put together a business plan yet, so on what basis are you claiming it has a chance?Common sense.
Mr_Parker
02/01/2008, 12:32 PM
Common sense.
Wave a wad of money and everything will be better? :confused:
pineapple stu
02/01/2008, 12:39 PM
Of course.
I never said an AIL wasn't important, ORA. I said it isn't as important as people make out. Big difference. You also say "Let's leave aside the permanence of this cashflow". Rather a big thing to leave aside, don't you think?
micls
02/01/2008, 12:41 PM
How can we vote on a poll when we don't what the "it" will be in terms of "will it happen." Does anyone have the the hard facts on what is proposed and how it will work. So far all I have seen and heard about are wishes lists and possibilities. The lack of detail and approval for a proposal that is supposed to start in 7 months is staggering.
The it is simply an AIL in any form.
I agree with Pineapple Stu to an extent. I would like to see it happen, think it would be good for the league but it's no the be all and end all. There'l still be an awful lot to do and a lot of challenges.
If it didnt happen I ain't say I'd be all that bothered. Yeah the money and tv coverage sounds good but it's not everything
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 12:44 PM
Wave a wad of money and everything will be better? :confused:Well a wad of money would be a good start, if it is spent on infrastructure, marketing and proper administration in addition to players wages.
As I said, I'm yet to be convinced any of the above will get Joe-Premership fan off his barstool but its worth a go IMHO.
The fact that the plans aren't fully thought out doesn't unduly worry me. Someone other than the IL/IFA and FAI had to take the lead as turkeys don't vote for Christmas. I don't mind who takes it forward to fruitition but the end state of an AIL is very much where I see football going.
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 1:27 PM
Completely disgree.
Full-time football is not, and looks like it never will be, sustainable under the current model.
Full-time football has a better chance of being sustainable under an AIL model due to the cash on offer (lets leave aside the permanence of this cashflow). Thats not to say that definitively it will be sustainable, but at least it has a chance.
That makes it important.
By that logic, an AIL will be entirely dependent on a sponsor putting up a lot of cash, presumably in the hope of recouping said cash from TV advertising?
So if the TV revenues fail to generate sufficient money, the sponsorship will reduce or end, and the AIL may end?
By that logic, an AIL will be entirely dependent on a sponsor putting up a lot of cash, presumably in the hope of recouping said cash from TV advertising?
So if the TV revenues fail to generate sufficient money, the sponsorship will reduce or end, and the AIL may end?
Not necessarily. If it takes off with a bang and creates interest it may draw investors to individual clubs also
sonofstan
02/01/2008, 1:39 PM
Not necessarily. If it takes off with a bang and creates interest it may draw investors to individual clubs also
And if it doesn't? football clubs being football clubs, expect a lot of ambitious overspending in the expectation of the gravy train rolling into town; and if the league fails, clubs will go to wall, leaving us with two drastically weakened leagues.
dcfc_1928
02/01/2008, 1:40 PM
Some more info in this article:
Backers of the proposed All-Ireland league are planning to unveil a prize pool of over €10 million, according to a report in Tuesday's Irish Daily Star.
http://www.setantasports.com/en/Sport/News/Football/2008/01/01/LOI-Cash-bonanza-for-All-Ireland-league/
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 1:44 PM
By that logic, an AIL will be entirely dependent on a sponsor putting up a lot of cash, presumably in the hope of recouping said cash from TV advertising?
So if the TV revenues fail to generate sufficient money, the sponsorship will reduce or end, and the AIL may end?Yes.
I don't know enough about the economics of the Irish League but the Eircom League has and is unsustainable in its current shape. The more clubs have to lose the riskier something becomes. Maybe I'm a lone voice here but I don't see that we have a lot to lose.
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 1:47 PM
Yes.
I don't know enough about the economics of the Irish League but the Eircom League has and is unsustainable in its current shape. The more clubs have to lose the riskier something becomes. Maybe I'm a lone voice here but I don't see that we have a lot to lose.
Why is the Eircom League unsustainable in its current shape?
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 1:48 PM
expect a lot of ambitious overspending in the expectation of the gravy train rolling into townAnd thats differs how from what we have seen in the last 10-15 years?:confused:
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 1:51 PM
Why is the Eircom League unsustainable in its current shape?I thought Shelbourne would have been reason enough?
Boom-bust cycles, bankruptcies, winding up orders, unpaid wages, promised capex than never materialises (how many new stadiums have been promised and how many delivered?).
sonofstan
02/01/2008, 1:52 PM
And thats differs how from what we have seen in the last 10-15 years?:confused:
Same thing, bigger scale: we could see a half- dozen Shelbourne's all at once if the tap was turned off; remember what happened in the Championship when the ITV money was pulled?
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 1:57 PM
I thought Shelbourne would have been reason enough?
Boom-bust cycles, bankruptcies, winding up orders, unpaid wages, promised capex than never materialises (how many new stadiums have been promised and how many delivered?).
Surely all of those things are down to poor management by the clubs, not the way the league is set up?
Why are clubs any more likely to manage themselves better in an AIL than in the Eircom League?
Yes.
I don't know enough about the economics of the Irish League but the Eircom League has and is unsustainable in its current shape. The more clubs have to lose the riskier something becomes. Maybe I'm a lone voice here but I don't see that we have a lot to lose.
And how will the inclusion of Linfield, Glentoran etc. change this cycle for the majority of Irish clubs? How will this benefit Limerick 37 for example? Because the exclusion from the top division could prove fatal for the clubs left out
Schumi
02/01/2008, 2:02 PM
Well a wad of money would be a good start, if it is spent on infrastructure, marketing and proper administration in addition to players wages.How likely do think it would be that the money wouldn't be entirely spent on wages? Especially as a major driver of all this talk seems to be the 65% wage cap.
And if it doesn't? football clubs being football clubs, expect a lot of ambitious overspending in the expectation of the gravy train rolling into town; and if the league fails, clubs will go to wall, leaving us with two drastically weakened leagues.
A possibility of course. But Im just saying its not necessarily only the sponsorship money that will be involved.
Being brutally honest I can't say I care too muh about any club but City. Of course I want a strong league but only because again that benefits City. Selfish? Maybe. But I dont care how it would affect Limerick, or Athlone or even Drogs or Bohs for that matter......apart from when their success impacts on my club.
I think this would be good for City. I think there are businessmen in place here who would be prudent enough not to let the club go bust, but I also think we badly need the supporters trust that is in the process of being set up. If for some reason, it doesn't work and we end up in a worse position than we are now(e.g. worst case scenario-Investors pull out) then we start again with the trust.
I think it's worth the gamble for us. As it is we need to spend more money than we have coming in to make the club competitive so the same risks apply now as will in an AIL
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 2:12 PM
Surely all of those things are down to poor management by the clubs, not the way the league is set up?
Why are clubs any more likely to manage themselves better in an AIL than in the Eircom League?Bigger money generally buys better administrators.
And how will the inclusion of Linfield, Glentoran etc. change this cycle for the majority of Irish clubs? How will this benefit Limerick 37 for example? Because the exclusion from the top division could prove fatal for the clubs left out ?The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.
How likely do think it would be that the money wouldn't be entirely spent on wages? Especially as a major driver of all this talk seems to be the 65% wage cap. If clubs are left to their own devices, then its entirely likely they will spent it on wages. But from what little I have read there seemed to be a focus on infrastructural improvements from those behind the scheme. Again, its not like the FAI are taking infrastructure seriously and as for the wage cap it the EL, I have seen nothing to demonstrate that its anything but a headline grabbing sham that will have more holes in it than a sieve come the end of the season.
The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.
So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 2:33 PM
So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.In fairness, I'd look a bit closer to home for reasons as to why one of the biggest cities in the country can't sustain one senior football side before you try to put all the blame on the system.
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 2:37 PM
Bigger money generally buys better administrators.
Any evidence for this? Are the administrators of Coventry City better than those of Tow Law Town? Are the administrators of Shelbourne better than those of Cobh Ramblers?
The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.
But their exclusion from the AIL means they don't share financially in the spoils whereas currently they do share financially in the spoils of the Eircome League. Therefore they lose out. Also, they won't get as much exposure in a Southern or Northern First Division as they do currently in the Eircome League and IPL, so you're wrong.
If clubs are left to their own devices, then its entirely likely they will spent it on wages. But from what little I have read there seemed to be a focus on infrastructural improvements from those behind the scheme. Again, its not like the FAI are taking infrastructure seriously and as for the wage cap it the EL, I have seen nothing to demonstrate that its anything but a headline grabbing sham that will have more holes in it than a sieve come the end of the season.
The IPL is introducing club licensing which, I presume, includes criteria regarding infrastructure and club management, etc. This type of thing is not dependent on an AIL.
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 2:46 PM
So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.
That is what will happen.
The problem with football in Europe is that increasing amounts of money are distributed too narrowly, therefore creating a self-perpetuating elite and reducing competition. Yet sport needs competition to thrive. That is why the Americans do what they can to avoid having self-perpetuating elites in their main sports.
By all means generate as much revenue as possible, but it needs to be redistributed more widely so that the sport as a whole benefits, and not just a few clubs.
The same argument applies in NI, ROI and Ireland as a whole as it does in England and, more generally, Europe.
In fairness, I'd look a bit closer to home for reasons as to why one of the biggest cities in the country can't sustain one senior football side before you try to put all the blame on the system.
Yeah it's because of Munster rugby and Fr.Joe Young, what's your point? I used Limerick as an example. So whats the answer to my original question about the G6 trying to model this league on the disasterous Premiership?
OneRedArmy
02/01/2008, 2:51 PM
Yeah it's because of Munster rugby and Fr.Joe Young, what's your point? I used Limerick as an example. So whats the answer to my original question about the G6 trying to model this league on the disasterous Premiership?My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.
As for the "disasterous (sic) Premiership", I suppose its all in the eye of the beholder.
So I suppose in summary I would agree that this does little to benefit the Limericks of the world, but I'm fairly sure that is irrelevant as to whether it succeeds.
Before you get all upset at your club being ignored (which it is) bear in mind I'm not behind the AIL proposals and am only stating reality.
Blanchflower
02/01/2008, 2:57 PM
My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.
But your point is unsound.
It will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements.
Schumi
02/01/2008, 2:58 PM
My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.The problem is that based on some of the details leaked, clubs who don't make the cut for the AIL top division (whether that be by footballing merit or DVD presentations) will find it enormously difficult to ever break in and the relegated team will be hot favourites for promotion again.
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