Anger at 'lazy' Roma remarks

[Block G Raptor]

I think they came all the way to Ireland with the intention of escaping persecution, not the famed generosity of the gullible gael.
Anyway, you could say the same of the Milesians!

Have you actually been to romania and seen the conditions they live in ?
I have, and as for persecution they are treated in romania as travellers here are treated, Things were bad for them in the past, but as part of the conditions for Romania's accession to the EU a lot of new legislation has been passed to protect their way of life.
I can assure you that it is not escape from persecution that the Roma are thinking of it is pastures new and rich pickings,
they are by definition a Nomadic race who have migrated all across the continent for thousands of years and lived the same parasitic lifestyle for as long

[Magicme]

Well I should hope things have improved. Was dead against Romania joining the EU as there human rights record is appalling.

And them being treated them same way as travellers here are treated is acceptable? Thats a joke. How anyone can treat any human being so horribly is beyond me. Yes am a soft old fool who believes in the intrinsic good in all but I feel that the laws of parenting, apply in all things. Love, accept the person as they are, praise the good and set boundaries to curtail the bad.

Peace and love to all (except Bertie! :D)

[Block G Raptor]

Shock horror! Imagine that Gypsies being mistreated by other goverments....no no it would never happen. I suggest you read up on some of the problems the Roma have faced in many countries including their own to enlighten you.

We are not the first and will not be the last to allienate them and push them into a sub-class but I had hoped that us "kind caring fun" Irish might rise above that and give the poor feckers a chance. Some hope when B***cks Bertie & Co are in charge.

I could tell you personal stories from the Roma I know showing how they were treated in the post-communisim regime but I know will be wasting my time as you have your mind made up.

Go listen to Michael Franti and try to learn some compassion.

It's a case of the chicken and the Egg then magicme, Are they marginalised because of there way of life? or do they live a certain lifestyle because they are marginalised. I firmly believe it to be the former



And them being treated them same way as travellers here are treated is acceptable? Thats a joke.

No it is in no way acceptable, but it is hardly persecution. you dont see travellers mass-migrating to get away from the persecution in this country

[Magicme]

I believe that you should have the choice to live whatever way you want without victimisation as long as you are obey the moral codes of society.

[Block G Raptor]

I could tell you personal stories from the Roma I know showing how they were treated in the post-communisim regime but I know will be wasting my time as you have your mind made up.

Go listen to Michael Franti and try to learn some compassion.


I am open to hearing of their plight really I am, I'm not extremist by nature I just have a pain in the backside being hassled and harried and intimidated by them on a daily bases just trying to get to and from work. There are a lot of people in this country who want to help them and that is admirable(although some of this is very mis-guided), but really they have to help themselves by making an effort to integrate and accept the customs and indeed laws of the host country, which throughout history the Roma have refused to do.

I believe that you should have the choice to live whatever way you want without victimisation as long as you are obey the moral codes of society.
That really is the Crux of it. It is my experience that a huge proportion of the Roma in Ireland do not obey the moral codes of this country.

[Billy Lord]

can we really call being all the worst aspects of the human race a culture?
Are you talking about the Irish or the Roma?

[Magicme]

Well I am often asked for money or to buy the big issue etc and I just smile politely and shake my head and dont feel like its a major thing to over a common courtsey of acknowledging them.

It is clear to see from government statistics of immigration that less Roma or any Romanians are coming to Ireland and maybe that is due to improvements in their home country which I welcome.

I firmly believe that we are all entitled to live where we want and how we want. Man's greed created boundaries, the planet was built to share.

[jebus]

Well I am often asked for money or to buy the big issue etc and I just smile politely and shake my head and dont feel like its a major thing to over a common courtsey of acknowledging them.

And there it is people, what a lot of you can't seem to get, a Roma asks for change you either say 'no I'm sorry I don't', or give them a few coins, either way you treat them as an ordinary person and you will get treated the same way in return. Maybe the few of you who have had problems with them have had those problems because your attitudes shine through when you're dealing with them? You treat them as filth so they treat you in the same manner.

Surprised all this talk of smacking Romas, and running them all out of the country hasn't been deleted by now to be honest, if I took some of the posts people have put here and posted them up on ********** I'm sure I would get some positive feedback from that shower, which says it all about what I think about this thread

[Block G Raptor]

Surprised all this talk of smacking Romas, and running them all out of the country hasn't been deleted by now to be honest, if I took some of the posts people have put here and posted them up on ********** I'm sure I would get some positive feedback from that shower, which says it all about what I think about this thread

Just been on S.front (never heard of it till your previous post) god above I hope I don't sound as Moronic as the muppets on there

I would never advocate violence against anyone, however I would support deportation for anyone found to be leeching/screwing the system and or flouting the law

[dahamsta]

In case you're wondering, I haven't deleted this thread in the hope that people would come in and show up the borderline racists for what they are. I agree fully that they'd feel more at home on the pig-ignorant S.front.

[GavinZac]

In case you're wondering, I haven't deleted this thread in the hope that people would come in and show up the borderline racists for what they are. I agree fully that they'd feel more at home on the pig-ignorant S.front.

So you're linking race to stealing? What race are the Roma, by the way?

[Block G Raptor]

I agree fully that they'd feel more at home on the pig-ignorant S.front.

I agree that S.front is pig-ignorant, but doubt us borderline racists(I assume I'm included in that) would feel at home. Personally I rather the evenly balanced debate that we get here as opposed to the one sided deluded nazi cr@p that I've just flicked through over there

[micls]

Tbh I think the throwing out of the racism card is a bit OTT and brings nothing to the debate.

As far as I can see the majority including Raptor(though Ive disagreed with them) are judging them on their actions(or what they perceive to be their actions) i.e. stealing etc rather than wanting them out because of who they are.

There may be some over-generalistation but hardly racism.

They dont want Romas out because they are Romanian gypsies but because or their actions in society, I may not agree with them but people are far to quick to use the racism card whenever someone says anything bad. about a group of people.

Granted there is one or too posts a bit over the top but for the main people are giving their opinions on the usefulness of these people in our society.

[jebus]

Just been on S.front (never heard of it till your previous post) god above I hope I don't sound as Moronic as the muppets on there

You do to be honest, even moreso than InExile and Gavinzac


I would never advocate violence against anyone, however I would support deportation for anyone found to be leeching/screwing the system and or flouting the law

Don't tell that to the Fianna Failers then

[jebus]

As far as I can see the majority including Raptor(though Ive disagreed with them) are judging them on their actions(or what they perceive to be their actions) i.e. stealing etc rather than wanting them out because of who they are.

There may be some over-generalistation but hardly racism.


I'd agree if they hadn't advocated running a whole group straight out of the country based on the actions of some of them (reminds me of the morons who go on about all Nigerians being rapists), or called Romas inferior to us, but they did, and so I'm calling them pig ignorant

[Block G Raptor]

You do to be honest, even moreso than InExile and Gavinzac

Sorry if I came across like that, I do not have a prejudice against any Race for who they are or maybe perceived to be, Like Micls said, I have strong feeling's about this topic based on multiple personal experiences, not least of these, actually traveling to Romania and seeing just what the gypsies have amassed in that country, through sending money home etc. There is a lot of resentment in Romania now because Roma are using money earned abroad to buy a lot of properties in Romania

I'd agree if they hadn't advocated running a whole group straight out of the country based on the actions of some of them (reminds me of the morons who go on about all Nigerians being rapists), or called Romas inferior to us, but they did, and so I'm calling them pig ignorant
I did not intend to suggest that Roma are inherently inferior to us more that their chosen path in life is less acceptable to me. in plain words I believe that it is there mind set/beliefs/culture whatever to go through life taking and not giving. and yes I do have a problem with them being here under those circumstances, I don't for a minute believe that it is a few giving the majority a bad name nor to I believe that there are not some who want to better themselves, however it is my opinion based on personal experience that the former vastly out number the later. If that makes me racist then so be it I'm Racist

[micls]

I'd agree if they hadn't advocated running a whole group straight out of the country based on the actions of some of them (reminds me of the morons who go on about all Nigerians being rapists),
From what I can see Raptor said this, but based in on ALL Romas stealing, so perhaps ignorant of the facts, but not racist. He wanted those who do steal( he even said he didnt mind begging) out.

Gavinzac,advocated putting them in jail if they steal or harass someone and didnt mention deportation.

CAnt really remember what inexile said



or called Romas inferior to us,but they did,
Where?


and so I'm calling them pig ignorant

A big difference between ignorance and the racist crap spouted on S. Front

[GavinZac]

I'd agree if they hadn't advocated running a whole group straight out of the country based on the actions of some of them (reminds me of the morons who go on about all Nigerians being rapists), or called Romas inferior to us, but they did, and so I'm calling them pig ignorant

If someone is claiming residence here from another EU, hasn't registered for a PPS and therefore is doing nothing for Irish society in general, and is convicted of any crime, either they shouldn't be allowed to stay in the country and should be dealt with under their own legal system, or they should be punished by our own courts and not given a rap on the knuckles as is the current situation. If your problem is with generalisation, I can understand that but begging and stealing are part of their culture, as much as male superiority is part of arabic culture. Cultures have bad aspects and good aspects; We don't neccessarily have to respect the bad ones just because someone is moronic enough to equate "most Roma gypsies that have travelled here aren't earning their income legally or morally" with "I hate blacks and jews and have a high post count on ************".

[Block G Raptor]

Just a little aside on all this: I wonder if our economy was as dependent on tourism as it once was would the government be seen to be as tolerant of Begging and Vagrancy?
surely the instances of this behavior on our city streets can not be good for tourism

[jebus]

ireland would be better off excluding gypsies from residency some how, or cracking down on them and making it less attractive here so they feck off back to france and germany where they've plagued since the middle ages.


The Roma are more akin to Organised Criminals than Travelers, In that they have one goal and purpose in life and that is to grab what they can from whom they can in any way legal or illegal that they can, This maybe their "culture" -and I use the term lightly- but can we really call being all the worst aspects of the human race a culture?

Is just two pieces from the tripe thats being spewed here, look up the rest yourselves cause I can't be bothered answering to ye anymore

[GavinZac]

Is just two pieces from the tripe thats being spewed here, look up the rest yourselves cause I can't be bothered answering to ye anymoreThats my opinion, because in my experience and based on empirical evidence (http://roma.undp.sk/online.php), Roma gypsies are here to leech, not to seek fairer wages in a member EU state. Of course we can't do that legally, and I wouldn't condone just deporting them willy-nilly as it'd throw all the other good aspects of the EU into doubt, but we would be better off if we could tell in advance of them coming in what their purposes were, á la USA. I'd love it if they were coming here to work, like other cultures/nationalities, but they aren't. They just aren't! And they haven't been for centuries, no matter where they went. Ask yourself why they aren't all in France anymore and why they are here. To work? to enjoy our friendly welcoming society?

Do you disagree that every Roma in your experience has been unemployed and at very least doing nothing more productive than selling Dunnes stores roses at a 50% mark up to drunk people?

I've worked with Polish, Czech, Nigerian and Lithuanian people. I attend college with Chinese people and German people. One of my better friend's family moved here from Holland via England. These people have been making an honest living or earning an education from a truick driver to a EMC software specialist. Some of them have been the nicest people I've met, others haven't. Same as anybody, right? I'm delighted that we're no longer a homogenous bunch of hillbillies and I've learnt a lot from both travellers and travels. Have you heard of a Roma fulfilling any similar role? Have you heard of a Roma being friendly with 'us'? I abhor generalisations as much as anyone but the Roma case is one that sticks two fingers up to tolerance and political correctness. When does a generalisation become fact?

[Block G Raptor]

Do you disagree that every Roma in your experience has been unemployed and at very least doing nothing more productive than selling Dunnes stores roses at a 50% mark up to drunk people?
the minority may make this little effort the majority don't even bother they just stick a papercup or a months old big issue in your face

the Roma case is one that sticks two fingers up to tolerance and political correctness. When does a generalisation become fact?
Agree 100%

[jebus]

God I'm always drawn back in, anyway the two questions I took from your 'I'm not a racist' spiel there was have I ever met any Roma who works and have I ever met a nice one? The answers are I don't know, I generally don't ask people what they do, and yes I have, as I've told already back on page one.

Oh and on your 'we all have good and bad elements' point, yes we do, in fact thats my main argument against your 'drive them all from Ireland' credo of earlier

[GavinZac]

and have I ever met a nice one?you're a grand lad for putting words in people's mouths. You still haven't pointed out where your 'subhuman' claim came from.


Oh and one your 'we all have good and bad elements' point, yes we do, in fact thats my main argument against your 'drive them all from Ireland' credo of earlierSo you think we should tolerate their culture's adherence to leeching from other workers or their discrimination of basic women's rights so as to gain the benefit of the other highpoints of their culture, such as their music or, er, dislike of cats?

[Block G Raptor]

You forgot their welding skills and artistic prowess :rolleyes:
say's a lot really when it is that hard to find one significant thing a Culture much more ancient than our own has contributed to society in general

I suppose what really gets me about the "bleeding Heart liberals" (yes that's you Jebus and Magicme;) ) is that they insist that we respect the culture of whatever immigrant group they're defending whilst labeling those of us that insist that immigrants respect our culture as racists

[jebus]

you're a grand lad for putting words in people's mouths. You still haven't pointed out where your 'subhuman' claim came from.


From Block Raptors 'they are the worst parts of humanity all rolled into one' speech I have now highlighted twice. Do you need me to highlight it again? I can ask Dahamsta to arrange for me to change my font colour to bright, shiny ones too if needs be. Run along lads your battle was lost many, many posts ago.

And Block you haven't had a leg to stand on since your other thread about Ethnic Irish being sidelined

[jebus]

BHL 's make me sick - Magicme - not to sound patronising but I can see from your posts you are a good person - but that Big Issue seller you pass by so politely is actually doing something to earn a crust - much more than what the Roma are doing.

Roma sell Big Issues ffs, think before you open your mouth

[Block G Raptor]

OK Jebus i'll clarify the point which I obviously made badly, I did not mean to say that Roma are the worst parts of humanity all rolled into one, what I actually meant is that for century's a large part Roma "Culture" has been to migrate to a country more affluent than their own and to eek a living from that affluence without actually contributing much of value to their adopted home, and I'm sorry if it offends you but I feel that this is a bloody poor attribute to be considered Culture.
as for the other thread being sidelined, I was merely highlighting statistical information that to me showed proof of what I've suspected for a long time that immigrants are out numbering the Irish people in large swaths of this city, It's hardly my fault that it was dragged off topic by other poster's concentrating on a comment left by some bigot at the end of the blog

ps Jebus didn't realise this was a battle thought it was an informed discussion on an Issue which I think will be more and more topical as the economy slows down

[dahamsta]

BGR, you're going to have to knock the pigeonholing and stereotyping on the head pretty soon or I'm going to have to withdraw your rights to post here. Pigeonholing an entire race of people is racism, whether you want to accept that or not. Tone it down and add some "mosts" and/or "manys" to your posts or you'll be out on your ear. Better yet, try to understand that what you're saying - or more importantly the way you're saying it - is ignorant, and try to express yourself more intelligently.

adam

[Block G Raptor]

BGR, you're going to have to knock the pigeonholing and stereotyping on the head pretty soon or I'm going to have to withdraw your rights to post here. Pigeonholing an entire race of people is racism, whether you want to accept that or not. Tone it down and add some "mosts" and/or "manys" to your posts or you'll be out on your ear. Better yet, try to understand that what you're saying - or more importantly the way you're saying it - is ignorant, and try to express yourself more intelligently.

adam
OK fair point, well made. I wish I could make my points as clearly, as Im obviously coming across as a racist muppet when I'm really trying not to
as for me being ignorant that's your opinion and you are fully entitled to it, but I disagree as I consider myself to be quite knowledgeable and informed about this issue
as opposed to just towing the PC line, all of the points i've made here have been based on my personal experiences in Dublin and Bucharest/ Surrounding Rural area's and also those of some of my very close Romanian friends. and on research and reading that I've done recently mostly on line but from reputable sources (not S.Front and sites of that Ilk) I can post links to some interesting historical essays on Roma history and culture to back this up

[GavinZac]

OK fair point, well made. I wish I could make my points as clearly, as Im obviously coming across as a racist muppet when I'm really trying not to

Its not really racism though, is it? Racism is the belief that one race is pre inclined to be better or worse than another. Idiocy, I'm sure you'll agree.

However, Romas are ethnically from the Indian subcontinent. Are Pakistanis out begging, or are they often doctors? Indians seem more inclined to start businesses than the Irish, and I would venture have a 100% employment rate in this country. "Roma" is a culture, not a race, and a culture is a shared set of values (I had a lng, long discussion with Erstwhile Bohz about this ages ago). If some of those values in a culture are reprehensible, such as our propensity to get drunk and injure ourselves and others, or gypsies' inclination to beg and (many/most/some) steal, pointing that out makes you no more a racist than if I were to point out that arab culture devalues women or that the Dutch are generally liberal.

[Block G Raptor]

Jaysus GavinZac you've a way with words, thats exactly what I've been getting at(badly). It's the cultural pre-disposition of a large proportion of Roma to consider a way of life that to most of us is deplorable and to most of them an acceptable existence

[dahamsta]

Call it what you want, I don't want to see any more of this "I met three people of a certain category and they were beggars therefore all of the category are beggars" crap here or anywhere else on Foot.ie. Drop it, both of ye, now, and get back on topic or I'll throw one or both out for trolling instead.

[Block G Raptor]

Call it what you want, I don't want to see any more of this "I met three people of a certain category and they were beggars therefore all of the category are beggars" crap here or anywhere else on Foot.ie. Drop it, both of ye, now, and get back on topic or I'll throw one or both out for trolling instead.

I think that trivializes the arguement somewhat. In all honestly if I could say that I met three of them who were not beggers then I would be a lot more hesitant to generalize them all beggars unfortunately I have met bucket's loads more than three and as yet have not met one who hadn't begged. any way thats me finished on this topic, there really is nothing more to say

[dahamsta]

When you've met every single one of them, you'll be qualified to comment. For now, if you post again along those lines or on this off-topic subject, you'll be banned permanently from Current Affairs. Don't say I didn't warn you.

adam

[Billy Lord]

I think that trivializes the arguement somewhat. In all honestly if I could say that I met three of them who were not beggers then I would be a lot more hesitant to generalize them all beggars unfortunately I have met bucket's loads more than three and as yet have not met one who hadn't begged. any way thats me finished on this topic, there really is nothing more to say

It's not that long since Irish people slept with pigs and were regarded as red-headed, drunken monkeys, and there you are looking down on other people.
Maybe if the Roma went nuts on cocaine and stabbed each other to death you could relate to them. Culturally, that is.

[inexile]

my opinions on these people is nothing to do with borderline racism, its having to deal with them every single day and their ignorance and aggression in approaching people and making them feel very nervous. So you may think my views are racist but until you deal with them every day dont dismiss anyone as borderline racist.

[sullanefc]

I would consider myself quite liberal, but any Romas I have ever seen are either begging or stealing.

And what's worse we are becoming such a PC society that if someone points this fact out they are labelled as racist.

I don't know which is more worrying. :rolleyes:

[inexile]

I would consider myself quite liberal, but any Romas I have ever seen are either begging or stealing.

And what's worse we are becoming such a PC society that if someone points this fact out they are labelled as racist.

I don't know which is more worrying. :rolleyes:


i could not agree with you any more

[kingdom hoop]

I can post links to some interesting historical essays on Roma history and culture to back this up

Out of being a curious Gheorghe, could you furnish me with such links please? Good man. :)


I don't know much at all (as yet!) about their history and culture, but I'd find it very hard to believe that a cornerstone of their philosophy is to simply be an unabashed scourge on society by stealing and begging from honest folk. They may very well do so more than other people, but unless it has been a general paradigm they have had for eons then you can't say they (as a collective group) should be marginalised and subject to the kind of vitriol they would deserve if it was a basic tenet of their way of life. That's not political correctness gone too far but just simple non-generalisation of a group of people.

If it is shown that they are predisposed to common criminality, and that fact is supported by historical evidence, then there is some merit in arguing that we should pour scorn on them as filthy, thieving gypsies who are an unashamed scourge on society, and who distract us from assisting those who really deserve our help.

Sure they do engage in begging, but, for all we know, they could just be entrenched introspectors who bear a grudge against the world for marginalising them over the centuries and are now getting their own back after their fortune-telling spirituality was rejected as overly heretical! Whatever, I'd try to understand the nature of the beast before attempting to slay it. In other words are they the way they are because that was the path they chose for themselves, or because we've forced them down that path? If it's the former then, regrettably for the sound amongst them, I'd have to say ostracisation is in order.

If there is anything slightly smirk-worthy to be taken from this it is that it would seem the adage of beggars can't be choosers is being controverted as it appears that the beggars of the EU can in fact be choosers and follow the whiff of wealth around the community as they see fit. :p

[Ringo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

The Roma are in fairness, similar to Irish Travellers. How many Irish travellers pay tax? Have full time jobs? The Roma seem to have had a much harder time than Irish Travellers. Its hard to see too many poor travellers. I doubt very much if they all have large houses & huge wealth back in Eastern Europe. I saw an article(can’t find it now), where in said they can get €50 here a day begging, while at home it would take them a month to get that. So it’s not hard to see why they are here. I think there needs to be some enforcement of the laws on one side & encouragement for them to get work & become, if they won’t, part of our society.

[Block G Raptor]

Out of being a curious Gheorghe, could you furnish me with such links please? Good man. :)


I
Interesting Links to Roma history in the UK (http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Society_and_Culture/Ethnicity/Romani_and_Traveller/Romani/)
More Roma UK Heritage (http://members.tripod.com/~Gypsy3M/roma.html)
A Brief history of Roma (http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/A_Brief_Romani_History_(M1)_p19.pdf)

Read the first paragraph of this article(written by Roma themselves) to understand why Roma will not work or integrate (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/occupations.htm)

[jebus]

Lord God, it's like debating with a defective Bear in the Big Blue House doll sometimes

Bazza go back to your first post and read the bit you wrote about the Big Issue seller at least earning a crust, unlike the Roma as you say. That's you dealt with

InExile, the racist thing has stemmed from me saying that your remark about smacking one of them if they approach you, coupled with Gavin's ban them all rant, and well about ten or so of Block's posts, would find a happy home on **********, which they would.

[dahamsta]

The users would fit well on sfront too. Enough. Lads, go there if you want to chat with like-minded citizens.