G6 stay defiant [Archive] - Page 4

Poor Student

29/12/2007, 11:23 AM

I'd rather be governed by the FAI, which has a duty (in theory at least) to serve all of the clubs under its jurisdiction, than be governed by a structure set up by clubs who want to avoid a rule the majority of clubs (it seems to me) think is a good rule and a good idea.

I think that's something people forget. When the FAI/LOI merger was being debated a lot of people talked about smaller clubs "holding the rest of us back" referring to the fact that first division clubs and smaller premier clubs could easily out vote the five or six full time clubs and they looked forward to a more unilateral decision making process under the FAI. Now that the FAI don't share their vision for the league either they're willing to go back on everything they agreed on a short while ago.

micls

29/12/2007, 1:16 PM

Under current regulations, and assuming Ireland isn't granted an exemption by FIFA/UEFA, would the creation of an All-Ireland League mean that this island would no longer be able to have two national sides?

My belief is that it would mean that the island would no longer be able to have two national sides, in which case both FA's would never support it, in which case it's dead before it ever got started.

If there wasn't an exemption there isn't a hope of this happening, however I wouldn't be sure that FIFA/UEFA would be against it. As shown by FIFA they don't really want to get involved in the politics here, they don't want to tell Northern Irish people they aren't Irish and imo granted an exemption on that front so I don't think it's completely inconceivable.

On the G6 issue, whatever about the not inviting other clubs(is this 100% fact?) they know full well that their success as clubs is dependent n a strong and successful league in general. At a fans forum during the season Tynan spent a lot of time emphasising this point. Speaking of how important communication between the clubs is and the improvement of infrastructure and standards in every club is.

Now it's quite possible he was only thinking in terms of the premier but for any club to be successful there needs to be a general rise in standards of all clubs especially facility wise and I see this as a positive thing for the league overall.

On the wage cap, I'm unsure how I feel about it. If 'donations' are allowed then Im all for it. This allows investment without risk to the clubs of getting into huge debt.

However If donations are not allowed I think it'l just hold clubs back and turn investors off. While the concept behind it is sound and I understand the need to spend money on more than just wages(facilities, underage etc.) I think investors interested in the league will want to see more immediate results to their investments, i.e. better(more expensive) players coming in and creating a buzz which increases attendances.

Next year will be very interesting. As it stands I can't see how Drogs(and possibly Bohs) will stay under the wage cap(if donations are not allowed) given the size of their squads and when we actually start bringing in players(hopefully) we could be in the same position. How will it be enforced?

Anyway in general I'm all for an All Ireland league simply as I think it will improve standards and over time improve football in the country, however there are many many things that need to be worked out before we get anywhere near it. It needs the backing of the FAI/IFA and Uefa.

kdjaC

29/12/2007, 2:42 PM

same newspaper as rovers to donnybrook and nothng in any news paper or media since.....

hmmmmmm

kdjac

DmanDmythDledge

29/12/2007, 2:46 PM

same newspaper as rovers to donnybrook and nothng in any news paper or media since.....

hmmmmmm

kdjac
Negotiations between Rovers and Leinster Rugby were at an advanced stage and if the story hadn't been leeked to the Sindo Rovers would probably have ended up in Donnybrook.

damien

29/12/2007, 9:06 PM

typical C/\wkie delusional nonesense.

Waterford FC & WUFC are the same entity, i.e. club but different trading company. Ring up the WUFC main office when they open up in the New Year and they will give you a quick answer.

Still it must be absolutley galling for you egos down on Leeside the fact that our Club is 77 years young and has 6 League titles to its name.

Ah sure,what does a spotty, angst ridden geek who knows next to nothing about eL before 2000.

Its in my sig, watch and weep.

enjoy the first divison send us a post card as we have never been down there

DmanDmythDledge

29/12/2007, 10:11 PM

Billy Lord

29/12/2007, 10:29 PM

And their club and bank balance can't exist in isolation.

Why would trying to improve the game as a whole not fit with starting a breakaway league without the FAI? We did it before for a long time. If the FAI stay stoic on their rule which, while well intentioned, clearly did not involve a lot of thought (currently, if for some reason roy keane walked in the door of the offices in gran parade and asked for a job, sending the public into a frenzy and we sell �1,000,000 of merchandise in a day, we would have �350,000 sitting around that we couldn't do anything with except 'put aside for a rainy day'). While its well intentioned to prevent another shelbourne case (though i'd be surprised if at least one club isn't breaking it next year), if it doesn't allow pledged investment, i.e. money which doesn't have to be paid back and doesn't carry any risk, its only going to serve to turn away people who want to improve our game. We've been crying out for investment and now we're turning it away?

How about investing that mythical 350K in coaching kids/developing an academy?

holidaysong

29/12/2007, 11:01 PM

Article from Daniel McDonnell in today's Indo.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/allisland-project-has--potential-for-success-1254523.html

Doesn't really say anything that hasn't already been said, apart from saying that Shamrock Rovers and Dundalk have been invited to the group.

G6 is dead. Long live G8! :D

Selfishly I would have to support this move if Dundalk were to be involved (I'd sell my soul to Satan to get out of the graveyard at this stage) but if we were to remain outside the 'elite' division then I would have similar concerns to those expressed previously by osarusan et al. :o

Steve Bruce

29/12/2007, 11:09 PM

DmanDmythDledge

29/12/2007, 11:19 PM

G6 is dead. Long live G8! :D

Selfishly I would have to support this move if Dundalk were to be involved (I'd sell my soul to Satan to get out of the graveyard at this stage) but if we were to remain outside the 'elite' division then I would have similar concerns to those expressed previously by osarusan et al. :o
The plan is to set up a 12 team league, with 8 teams from the eL and 4 teams from the IL. Presumably these two teams have come into the media after yesterday's meeting.

Personally (although I obviously can't speak for them) I can't see Rovers going for it at this moment in time. The 65% wage cap fits in with the way the club is run and they seem happy enough to remain part time at the moment.

BohsPartisan

29/12/2007, 11:43 PM

Look it won't happen without FAI/IFA/UEFA backing (although I read somewhere that UEFA supported the idea of an AIL in principle). If that happens Rovers will be in no matter what. I agree with the wage cap. I also want to see an AIL.

Poor Student

30/12/2007, 7:10 AM

How about investing that mythical 350K in coaching kids/developing an academy?

Not to mention facilities and marketing.

GavinZac

30/12/2007, 9:18 AM

Not to mention facilities and marketing.

The point is, they're already building us a stadium, they're already building training facilities. They're already marketing us; but the only way to even half fill that stadium would be to be competitive on a european stage and to vastly improve the quality of the league by attracting the kind of players people will pay to watch.

As I said, I'm all in favour of limiting wages, but a blanket cap of 65% is ridiculous; Kilkenny City might pull in �50,000 a year and Cork City pull in at least �1,000,000. Cork City are in a much safer position to be spending more than 65%, perhaps 85% on wages. That leaves �150,000 for a "rainy day", as that is all that this money will be if the investors are already building facilities.

How legal is this cap, anyway? I know its anti-competitive, and its certainly restricting employment. National associations had to drop the foreigner limits and the strict transfer windows; how would one so blatantly illegal get by?

Poor Student

30/12/2007, 9:32 AM

I'm no expert but I've seen it written in other football circles that you shouldn't have more than 50/60% of your turnover spent on footballing wages as good business practise. I mentioned somewhere before that Celtic have worked theirs down to around 50%.

I think it's unlikely that any investor will throw their money at an eL club forever unless they happen to be rather rich and philanthropic therefore most eL clubs (there's 22 of them) will have to stand on their own two feet with a stable and sustainable business model. That can be done if they don't blow more than 65% on short termism.

It's hard to debate this though as I don't know if wages means purely players, the whole footballing side (e.g. coaches as well) or the entire wage bill of the club. None of us still seem to know how donations, directors loans and owners investment fit into the income definition either.

GavinZac

30/12/2007, 9:42 AM

I think it's unlikely that any investor will throw their money at an eL club forever unless they happen to be rather rich and philanthropic therefore most eL clubs (there's 22 of them) will have to stand on their own two feet with a stable and sustainable business model. That can be done if they don't blow more than 65% on short termism.
Yes, but investors don't want stable. Stable is unattractive right now as stable means bleeding money. its fine for celtic to limit their wages to 60% because they're dragging in multi-millions in merchandise from this island alone. The big clubs are losing money right now and all but a select few smaller clubs are having their costs covered by philanthropists. but (our) investors believe that with investment, rather than bill-paying, they can move closer to glasgow celtic than kilkenny city.

osarusan

30/12/2007, 11:58 AM

As I said, I'm all in favour of limiting wages, but a blanket cap of 65% is ridiculous; Kilkenny City might pull in €50,000 a year and Cork City pull in at least €1,000,000. Cork City are in a much safer position to be spending more than 65%, perhaps 85% on wages. That leaves €150,000 for a "rainy day", as that is all that this money will be if the investors are already building facilities.

You could argue that a rainy day in Cork would be much more costly than a rainy day in Kilkenny - the bigger the club, the bigger the expenses. I'm guessing the 65% was seen as a safe figure, no matter what the actual turnover for each club is.

How legal is this cap, anyway? I know its anti-competitive, and its certainly restricting employment. National associations had to drop the foreigner limits and the strict transfer windows; how would one so blatantly illegal get by?

I'm guessing it is not a case of being legal under Irish law - I'm guessing it is a policy the clubs signed on to. Lots of sports have wage caps, and I think they're all voluntary "gentleman's agreement" style deals. Every club signed on to this wage cap, right? If they change their mind and decide to ignore it, it probably wouldn't break any law, but would break their deal with the FAI and other clubs. I don't know what the consequences would be.

Stable is unattractive right now as stable means bleeding money. Isn't the function of this wage cap to try and change the situation so that "stable" doesn't mean bleeding so much money any more? A limit of 65% means that you can only bleed so much, on players at least.

Student Mullet

30/12/2007, 2:50 PM

The point is, they're already building us a stadium, they're already building training facilities. They're already marketing us; but the only way to even half fill that stadium would be to be competitive on a european stage and to vastly improve the quality of the league by attracting the kind of players people will pay to watch.If your investors spend millions on this then your wages will have no trouble keeping within 65% of your turnover.

Let's see them do all this first and we can cross the Roy Keane bridge if we ever come to it.

Celdrog

30/12/2007, 2:53 PM

The point is, they're already building us a stadium, Didn't know that - where is going and how long will it take?

R�iteoir

30/12/2007, 3:35 PM

Jealousy of what exactly?

A nice shiny new crest with a massive red "C" and what looks like a pirate ship you get a theme parks on it

This G6 thing is a media creation. Get over it and stop being scared of the future. Get on board now, and fight your corner for the type of league you want to see. Remember Widnes!

As a Widnes fan back then - I'd never thought I'd see that referenced on here - ****ing Maurice Lindsay selling us and Keighley up the River Mersey

Mr_Parker

31/12/2007, 10:27 AM

This was a summary of the meeting in Newry on Friday as I told to me and first posted on ILSF. I stand to be corrected on any of the below but I think it is fairly accurate.

12 full time teams with an 8-4 South North split (i.e. 3 IL clubs and Derry City) Best guess's are that the 3 "prefered" are Linfield, Glentoran and Glenavon.

New company to be formed with the clubs in the new league (by invitation) being franchisees.

Players fund to be available to help clubs have a level playing field when it comes to transfers.

The company to loan money to clubs if they need to do ground improvements.

Head Office in Belfast.

Board to run the company similar to what has be proposed for the IFAPL with one of the promoters companies acting as consultants it seems.

P&R. 1 relegated (with parachute money availalble) the 2 current leagues to continue to operate with the winners of each in a play off for promotion. (Though I don't know what happens if this causes inbalances in the leagues below.

Interest shown by Uefa and IFA (not sure if that is the Exec or one individual mind) but not from the FAI.

Governments show interest.

IL clubs represented: Glentoran, Portadown, Newry, Glenavon, Newry, Donegal Celtic and Crusaders with Linfield sending their apologies. (Don't think I have missed anyone). Portadown rep left early.

Steve Bruce

31/12/2007, 10:32 AM

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/article3296452.ece

Glentoran supporting the idea. Also their is talk of 2 champions leagues spots. Don't know how they will work that one out.

jebus

31/12/2007, 10:49 AM

New company to be formed with the clubs in the new league (by invitation) being franchisees.

Why can't Irish people get the concept of settling sporting matters on the field

Players fund to be available to help clubs have a level playing field when it comes to transfers.

Any more details on that? Say for example if Cobh were in the top division and Derry, Cork etc. spent 10k on a player's transfer fee, would Cobh be able to go and get 10k for their own player of similiar ability? More importantly would it be a short term loan?

The company to loan money to clubs if they need to do ground improvements.

All well and good until the creditors come calling

P&R. 1 relegated (with parachute money availalble) the 2 current leagues to continue to operate with the winners of each in a play off for promotion. (Though I don't know what happens if this causes inbalances in the leagues below.

Any idea on what the TV/Prize money breakdown is?

Interest shown by Uefa and IFA (not sure if that is the Exec or one individual mind) but not from the FAI.

Doubt they will want to pass the sceptre after only a year in charge

Glentoran supporting the idea. Also their is talk of 2 champions leagues spots. Don't know how they will work that one out.

I heard they will go to the top teams from the North and South, regardless of where they finish in the league, e.g. if Linfield finish above their fellow Nordies, but still only finish 5th they will still get the CL spot

Stato

31/12/2007, 12:11 PM

As I said, I'm all in favour of limiting wages, but a blanket cap of 65% is ridiculous; Kilkenny City might pull in €50,000 a year and Cork City pull in at least €1,000,000. Cork City are in a much safer position to be spending more than 65%, perhaps 85% on wages. That leaves €150,000 for a "rainy day", as that is all that this money will be if the investors are already building facilities.

Just in case it's not already known, the 65% cap is a cap on "player costs". In your scenario above you're suggesting that €150,000 would be enough for Cork City to pay its team manager, coaching staff, physio, grounds staff, admin, sales and marketing staff, and all of the other overheads (insurance, rent, rates, telephone, ESB, etc. etc.). I can't see how €150,000 would cover all that.

How legal is this cap, anyway? I know its anti-competitive, and its certainly restricting employment. National associations had to drop the foreigner limits and the strict transfer windows; how would one so blatantly illegal get by?

Technically the cap doesn't restrict employment. If a club has €1m turnover it can spend it's €650,000 any way it wants. That could be 20 players earning €32,500 each or one prima-donna earning €600,000 with another 50 earning €1,000 each. This isn't a wage-cap for players (i.e. one that limits the wages of any one player), it's a spending-cap for the clubs.

Mr_Parker

31/12/2007, 12:16 PM

Why can't Irish people get the concept of settling sporting matters on the field

Any more details on that? Say for example if Cobh were in the top division and Derry, Cork etc. spent 10k on a player's transfer fee, would Cobh be able to go and get 10k for their own player of similiar ability? More importantly would it be a short term loan?

All well and good until the creditors come calling

Any idea on what the TV/Prize money breakdown is?

Doubt they will want to pass the sceptre after only a year in charge

I heard they will go to the top teams from the North and South, regardless of where they finish in the league, e.g. if Linfield finish above their fellow Nordies, but still only finish 5th they will still get the CL spot

I'm afraid I don't have anything more than I posted.

steno

31/12/2007, 12:25 PM

This was a summary of the meeting in Newry on Friday as I told to me and first posted on ILSF. I stand to be corrected on any of the below but I think it is fairly accurate.

12 full time teams with an 8-4 South North split (i.e. 3 IL clubs and Derry City) Best guess's are that the 3 "prefered" are Linfield, Glentoran and Glenavon.

So 9 teams from the Eircom League leaving 3 premier division teams and 10 division One teams. Brings up the questions would the LOI return to a single division?. What about the (to date) 4 A league teams?, would there still be a A league or would these sides simply be entered into the new LOI division

Interest shown by Uefa and IFA (not sure if that is the Exec or one individual mind) but not from the FAI.

Governments show interest.

If the government of both sides are interested in seeing this go ahead then the FAI could come under pressure and find their government funding under threat and I can think of one or two sporting organistions who wouldn't mind an extra bit of money whether they do indeed need it or not.

One question regarding UEFA though where does that leave the two national teams?.

Not interrogating you Mr. Parker I know that all you know but just general questions/point(s) that spring to mind

jebus

31/12/2007, 12:59 PM

I'm afraid I don't have anything more than I posted.

Cheers for posting up what you heard anyway, my questions were more aimed at anyone else in the know

osarusan

31/12/2007, 1:09 PM

Players fund to be available to help clubs have a level playing field when it comes to transfers.

The company to loan money to clubs if they need to do ground improvements.

P&R. 1 relegated (with parachute money availalble)

Player funds, money available for ground development (bigger crowds), and parachute money.

If the first two bits of info relate only to top division clubs, it sounds like whatever club is relegated will be in prime position to get promoted again, given the financial aid.

Buller

31/12/2007, 1:42 PM

Player funds, money available for ground development (bigger crowds), and parachute money.

And all this money will come from new sponsorship and a tv deal?!

jebus

31/12/2007, 1:44 PM

And all this money will come from new sponsorship and a tv deal?!

It all sounds like the Simpsons episode where Mr.Burns buys/helps the Church doesn't it

DmanDmythDledge

31/12/2007, 2:12 PM

Interest shown by Uefa and IFA (not sure if that is the Exec or one individual mind) but not from the FAI.
Which basically kills any interest UEFA have for this.

steno

31/12/2007, 4:58 PM

Governments showing interest could see a change of heart by the FAI though, important source of money for the FAI that government.;)

Supersaint

31/12/2007, 7:57 PM

I dont think the G6 are really planning a breakaway, bottom line is they need the support of the FAI for there to be any chance of success , also i hear there presentation was **** poor with little support financial or otherwise .
does anybody see a breakaway surviving without fai support

didnt we do it up until last season without the fai supporting us,the league hasnt changed that much over the past year.

Supersaint

31/12/2007, 8:43 PM

i havent really been tuned into the whole g6 thing could anyone tell me how advanced the talks have come.

Kivlehan

31/12/2007, 11:33 PM

So I edited the Football Manager database (FM2007) to swap Irish and Northern Irish teams into the Hungarian league and the Hungarian teams into LoI/IL so that I could create one All-Ireland League. This was a 16 team league with two leagues of sixteen beneath it. Two teams get relegated, the winners of each sub-league get promoted. I didn't play as any of the teams, I just let it run. Here are the results of the 3 seasons I ran:

Year One:

1. St. Pats, 59 points
2. Bohs, 52 points
3. Cork, 52 points
4. Glentoran, 50 points
5. Linfield, 50 points
6. Derry, 50 points
7. Drogheda, 46 points
8. Dungannon, 42 points
9. Coleraine, 42 points
10. Galway, 41 points
11. Portadown, 40 points
12. Shams, 39 points
13. Sligo, 33 points
14. Ballymena, 27 points
15. Newry, 21 points
16. Cliftonville, 20 points

Cup Winner: Shamrock Rovers

Year Two:

1. Bohs, 55 points
2. Glentoran, 54 points
3. St. Pats, 53 points
4. Derry, 53 points
5. Cork, 53 points
6. Drogheda, 48 points
7. Linfield, 47 points
8. Portadown, 45 points
9. Sligo, 42 points
10. Galway, 35 points
11. Dundalk, 34 points
12. Crusaders, 33 points
13. Shams, 32 points
14. Dungannon, 29 points
15. Coleraine, 25 points
16. Ballymena, 22 points

Cup Winner: Cork City

Year Three:

1. St. Pats, 60 points
2. Bohs, 56 points
3. Drogheda, 49 points
4. Shams, 48 points
5. Portadown, 48 points
6. Glentoran, 47 points
7. Dundalk, 45 points
8. Cork, 44 points
9. Sligo, 42 points
10. Derry, 41 points
11. Longford, 39 points
12. Linfield, 35 points
13. Crusaders, 33 points
14. Glenavon, 32 points
15. Galway, 29 points
16. Dungannon, 14 points

Cup Winner: Dundalk

Buller

01/01/2008, 12:58 AM

Cup Winner: Shamrock Rovers

Sounds fairly accurate... ;)
I'm starting to like this new league!

LeixlipRed

01/01/2008, 1:11 AM

Most pointless exercise ever

Kivlehan

01/01/2008, 1:56 AM

Most pointless exercise ever

It's not meant to be serious, just a bit of fun.

OneRedArmy

01/01/2008, 12:59 PM

Huge amount of naivety on display on this thread.

I'm personally still to be convinced about the feasibility of launching an AIL right now, but I wouldn't underestimate the involvement of Drury & Co and the amount of work that went on prior to the discussions being "leaked". Drury is no fool and you can be sure all of the questions raised here, and a hell of a lot more have been discussed.

Which clubs are in are out of the "G6" at the present time is neither here nor there. If the proposals are attractive (ie lots of cash on offer), clubs will have no choice but to jump in.

The national association and governing body support issue is more problematic, but UEFA and FIFA are long overdue being taken to the European courts over freedom of trade and movement issues. I would also find it hard to believe that these bodies hadn't been sounded out unofficially before discussions began.

If anything can be a silver bullet to improve Irish football then a large, sustained injection of cash is whats required. This will improve infrastructure and the standard of play and the fans should come. If they don't, then they never will.

sullanefc

01/01/2008, 2:02 PM

I'm also sceptical of UEFA being for this AIL. If it is allowed to happen is it not setting a precedent? What is to stop Celtic and Rangers from joining the premiership or teams in other countries changing leagues? I don't think UEFA want that?

micls

01/01/2008, 5:14 PM

http://www.irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/showthread.php?p=131379&posted=1#post131379

A few posts down theres a scan of the front page of Today's Star.......

If there's any truth in that n wonder the 'G6' are staying defiant

sligoman

01/01/2008, 5:28 PM

DmanDmythDledge

01/01/2008, 5:32 PM

Have to register to view...summarise it?
Total of �10m prize money for this new league, with between �1 and �2 for the winners. Also says that seven clubs from the Irish League showed up at last weeks meeting.

Poor Student

01/01/2008, 5:33 PM

There's a headline saying "Super League clubs to net �10m". There's also a quote "With the top finishers in the new Super League receiving prize money between �1m aand �2m each", a bit unspecific but that's the main gist of the article.

micls

01/01/2008, 5:35 PM

Total of €10m prize money for this new league, with between €1 and €2 for the winners. Also says that seven clubs from the Irish League showed up at last weeks meeting.
:D
2m for the winners, between 1m and 2m each for the 'top finishers'

Mr_Parker

02/01/2008, 7:48 AM

Also says that seven clubs from the Irish League showed up at last weeks meeting.

And most walked away with more questions than answers!

Mr_Parker

02/01/2008, 8:48 AM

Wells dismisses All-Ireland plans

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/7167621.stm

Jerry The Saint

02/01/2008, 9:26 AM

Wells dismisses All-Ireland plans

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/7167621.stm

Misleading headline...

"I've had some informal chats with people about it but it has not been brought to the table of the appropriate authorities.

"As far as I am concerned, suggestions that this is all going to happen from August this year is pie in the sky," said Wells.

As far as I know, one paper ran with a quote suggesting the league would begin this year. If this was ever said by anybody it would only be to emphasize that the parties involved are serious about making this happen. I don't think anyone would realistically claim that the new league could begin in the middle of the next scheduled LOI season.

Mr_Parker

02/01/2008, 9:51 AM

Misleading headline...

As far as I know, one paper ran with a quote suggesting the league would begin this year. If this was ever said by anybody it would only be to emphasize that the parties involved are serious about making this happen. I don't think anyone would realistically claim that the new league could begin in the middle of the next scheduled LOI season.

Sorry to repeat myself from the other thread but the promoters of the new league themselves stated August to those IL in attendance at the meeting held last Friday.

Wells is no doozer and is giving a politician style answer. He is not going to come out and completely trash any ideas until he has actually seen what has been proposed.