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AustinoAsprilla
17/12/2007, 2:08 PM
Serious question. Are the FAI really that bad when compared to other FA's around? I know as an organisation they are looked upon as being a joke but is it just that all FA's are unable to please the public when it comes to running football?

The English FA have just given their fans one of the greatest stadiums in the world, run one of the best leagues in the world and have never been afraid to pump money into grassroots yet they get slated for stadium delays, McClaren, not producing enough homegrown talent, too many foreigners etc.

Dutch FA have probably greatest grassroots in the world yet their FA get really bad press due to their best players all leaving and national team always failing.

Brazilian FA can't hold onto any kid who shows potential and can't play many friendly at home because none of their players would turn up.

Italian FA - where do I start. Scottish FA - 2 teams won national league in about 100 years. Spanish FA - constantly underachieving, no national stadium.

So are the FAI really that bad compared to these or is it just FA's in general?


PS- I'll excuse the German FA... They seem "extremely efficient"!!

Stuttgart88
17/12/2007, 2:14 PM
I'm no expert (ask Owls Fan - he has opinions on this matter) but it seems to be they make a decent fist of the grass roots and have well thought out and ambitious plans regarding developing young players.

Their management of the international set up has to be questioned. The Staunton appointment, media relations, failure to capitalise on a golden era of success at underage level, failure to develop facilities e.g., eircom park, are all obvious failings.

Appalling corporate governance / organisation.

OwlsFan
17/12/2007, 4:51 PM
Well if you judge by the comparable yardstick, the IFA, there's not much in it.

There is no doubt that there has been mismanagement and bad decisions made but then show me any organisation that doesn't make mistakes.

Soccer has always played second fiddle (no pun intended) to the GAA in this country for historical reasons. If the GAA didn't exist I firmly believe we would have a viable soccer league comparable to say Scotland (with Cork vs Dublin being our Celtic vs Rangers) but like soccer in Wales, where rugby is the No. 1 sport, it is hard to compete as the No. 2 sport in a small country. Remember people were banned from playing soccer if they played GAA.

There was no money in soccer where it was a working class game played and supported by primarily in working class areas. Rugby had money even though it too was a minority sport for reasons I don't need to go in to.

The FAI is now, compared to many years ago, a professionally run organisation, primarily because it can now afford to be because of gate receipts and sponsorship acquired from home international games.

Things are now run relatively efficiently and I wouldn't put too much negative emphasis on poor choice of managers. The English FA up to recently lead the way on that and many professionally run clubs hire and fire managers with great regularity.

Things could be better but they are far better than they used to be when we used play our home games at Dalymount and the best view was under the shed with a thousand sitting on top of it (not having paid in but climbing up the back).

pineapple stu
17/12/2007, 4:56 PM
The FAI is now, compared to many years ago, a professionally run organisation

Things are now run relatively efficiently
How would you back up these statements?

jbyrne
17/12/2007, 5:25 PM
have to agree that things are better than they were. sure the fai get a fair bit of bad press but the media in this country always concentrate on the negative rather than the positive.

my memory is that things were so bad that they were almost bankrupt in the mid 80s and it was only the opel sponsorship that let them take on Charlton as manager. I seem to remember them trying to organise a raffle around 1987 to pay for the re-fit of their HQ but had to abandon it due to a lack of interest. If anyone has the Ireland v Belgium 1987 match programme I think there is something in it about the raffle listing what items they needed to purchase for the office. does anyone else remember this?

GavinZac
17/12/2007, 5:33 PM
Spanish FA - constantly underachieving, no national stadium.Spain is a collection of autonomous states. To select a national stadium, presumably in madrid, would cause a lot of hassle.

We, on the other hand, didnt bother our arses keeping dalymount in good nick.

lopez
17/12/2007, 6:29 PM
Spain is a collection of autonomous states. To select a national stadium, presumably in madrid, would cause a lot of hassle.

We, on the other hand, didnt bother our arses keeping dalymount in good nick.Spain's problems are not with the national stadium issue, with a number of class grounds around the place. Truth is there is a latent antipathy with 'la seleccion' that exists throughout the country. Hence only 65K at the Bernabeu for the crunch game with Sweden (I would have thought 15K of those would be Swedes though not sure).

The FA seems to be well run there, but it still has accusations of political issues and 'padrinismo' (not what you know,, but who you know), especially with the president Angel Villar getting his fellow Basques in some cushy numbers (the bloke before Aracojones, Inaki Saenz (was that his name?) being the worst example).

I think we all could have known Stan was not up to the job. Shame as the FAI has improved in recent years.

stojkovic
17/12/2007, 7:07 PM
The Spanish FA do not need a national stadium as their clubs have ones that are sufficient. Similarly the German, Italian, Portuguese, Dutch and French FA's do not own their own stadiums as they are owned by the clubs or local councils.

Wembley was privatly owned for 80 years before the FA took it over and rebuilt it.

Therefore the FAI cannot be criticised for not having a stadium as we will be one of the few who will own (part own) their own when Lansdowne is rebuilt.

The issue is the sh1t state of our club grounds and/or the lack of investment from local councils. If the GAA did not exist in this country then this problem would not exist.

Superhoops
18/12/2007, 1:24 AM
How would you back up these statements?
There is certainly more resource being put in at all levels of the game but especially at grass roots level.

The game is better promoted nationally now than ever and there are more participants than ever, more people now play soccer than any other game in Ireland.

There are more opportunities, whether it be for players, coaching or refereeing. Look at the underage set-up, not only are there more games and more players at representative level but they are being drawn from all over Ireland, not just the Dublin and Cork area. Also, there are now structures in place to support young players who have not made in the UK and to encourage them to continue playing and add value to the EL.

The FAI's commercial accumen has definitely improved and significant revenue is being generated from television, sponsorship and the corporate sector, all of which is necessary to sustain the financial viability of the activites they undertake. They have successfully lobbied for more Government funding of soccer which has increased massively over the last 3/4 years.

As has been pointed out before, in any big organisation every decision made is not always right every time but mature organisations move on and learn. Decision making and organisation matters are more business like since the implementation of the Genesis recommendation for a Board of Management which reports to the full FAI Council.

One area the FAI could improve on is how they interact with fans, be they EL fans, junior league fans or senior international fans both in Ireland and abroad.

All is not perfect but in my opinion the game generally is better run now than ever and some credit should be given where it is due. I would like to see more emphasis in the media on the success stories rather than the constant criticism and sniping that goes on but of course good news doesn't generally sell newspapers.

OwlsFan
18/12/2007, 10:01 AM
Well the English FA reviewed candidates and appointed a quality world class manager in a month.

The FAI have been playing hot potato with the responsibility for appointing a new manager for TWO months.

Not so difficult when the best possible available manager applies for the job and you have 6 million to give him.

They didn't take long to appoint McLaren either.

tetsujin1979
18/12/2007, 11:48 AM
Not so difficult when the best possible available manager applies for the job and you have 6 million to give him.

They didn't take long to appoint McLaren either.
They only appointed McLaren after Scolari had first accepted the job, then realised what sort of press scrutiny he would be under, and finally told the FA to keep it and signed a new contract with Portugal. Barwick then had the bare-faced cheek to tell everyone that McLaren was the number one choice from the beginning!

blobbyblob
18/12/2007, 11:53 AM
From one who is actively involved both in grassroots and club development, I must say that the FAI and the SFAI have been a great support and pulled out all the stops to ensure that we have all the resources available to us that we need.

There is definitely a structure and a vision in place now and they seem to know where they want to be. I think were in safe hands for the future.

As an organisation, the FAI is much bigger than just the international team and as far as Im concerned if they can crack the grassroots side of things we will have many good years ahead of us even if things arent so pretty now. Sadly the people with little involvement with grassroot or even junior club level have little appreciation for that.

barney
18/12/2007, 2:27 PM
Well the English FA reviewed candidates and appointed a quality world class manager in a month.

The FAI have been playing hot potato with the responsibility for appointing a new manager for TWO months.


Not really fair to compare with the English FA. They're bigger and have more money. What about Scotland? They got Walter Smith whose record at the time was not exactly glittering (Rangers aside). Then they got McLeish who had just seen his career nosedive.

Wales have gotten Toshack!! Before that it was a managerial rookie in Hughes.

Northern Ireland got Lawrie Sanchez, who didn't exactly set the world alight beforehand (or since) and then Nigel Worthington, who had been sacked by Norwich.

The Irish job is not an attractive one for any manager. The pay is realtively poor (compared to the English job or a Premiership job) and the chances of success, even relative success, don't look great on paper.

Also, why is there a rush to get a manager? No point in deciding on someone prematurely, we can take our time.

As for the FAI, I think they're doing a decent job but are in a position to be shot at. My only concern is the petty fines that they hand out.

OwlsFan
18/12/2007, 4:49 PM
My God, I was expecting this thread to turn in to the usual string of invectives but most are positive comments :eek:

Is that Santa's sleigh out there being pulled through the sky by a horde of flying pigs??

gspain
18/12/2007, 5:07 PM
The last ESRI study showed that football is the most popular sport in the country from a participation level - 13% v 8% for GAA. Schoolboy football and amateur football etc are all thriving. Unfortunately despite football being the biggest sport in the country by a long long way this does not translate into support for our domestic league. For some strange reason rugby supporters in Dublin seem to support Leinster rather than Glasgow or Sale. Those in Limerick seem to support Munster rather than Wasps or Leicester.

I think the FAI are doing a good job of running football in this country outside of the Eircom League. Progress is being made there but there is a lot to be done.

It appears that the FAI are totally screwing up the selection of a manager for our national team. I am loathe to comment until I see who we end up with but frankly I'd love to stop the process and just take the runner up for the Scotland job. He is likely to be streets ahead of whoever we pick.

pineapple stu
18/12/2007, 6:09 PM
There is certainly more resource being put in at all levels of the game but especially at grass roots level.

The game is better promoted nationally now than ever and there are more participants than ever, more people now play soccer than any other game in Ireland.

There are more opportunities, whether it be for players, coaching or refereeing. Look at the underage set-up, not only are there more games and more players at representative level but they are being drawn from all over Ireland, not just the Dublin and Cork area. Also, there are now structures in place to support young players who have not made in the UK and to encourage them to continue playing and add value to the EL.

The FAI's commercial accumen has definitely improved and significant revenue is being generated from television, sponsorship and the corporate sector, all of which is necessary to sustain the financial viability of the activites they undertake. They have successfully lobbied for more Government funding of soccer which has increased massively over the last 3/4 years.

As has been pointed out before, in any big organisation every decision made is not always right every time but mature organisations move on and learn. Decision making and organisation matters are more business like since the implementation of the Genesis recommendation for a Board of Management which reports to the full FAI Council.

One area the FAI could improve on is how they interact with fans, be they EL fans, junior league fans or senior international fans both in Ireland and abroad.

All is not perfect but in my opinion the game generally is better run now than ever and some credit should be given where it is due. I would like to see more emphasis in the media on the success stories rather than the constant criticism and sniping that goes on but of course good news doesn't generally sell newspapers.
See, the problem I have with this is that it reads like a string of sound-bytes - all very impressive, but again, backed up by nothing tangible.

The bit highlighted in bold particularly undermines your post. Have you seen the Genesis Report? If you say you have, you're either -

(a) a senior FAI official, in which case, get back to work.
(b) an international player, in which case you're a liar or
(c) a liar, because no-one outside of that group has seen the report. Even Noel Mooney couldn't get a hand on a copy when he went looking recently.

Moving on from that, how do you know the report was implemented? Was the report good or bad? The report into the league was god-awful tripe, and the one into the rugby team doesn't appear the most earth shattering either; it's quite possible the report into the FAI was of a similar standard. In which case, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a good thing the report's recommendations were implemented, even if they were.

Such gaping holes in your post leave me inclined to wonder about the rest of it.

John83
18/12/2007, 6:28 PM
(c) a liar, because no-one outside of that group has seen the report. Even Noel Mooney couldn't get a hand on a copy when he went looking recently.
So Eoghan Rice says. Not the same thing at all.

If anyone has a copy by the way, please pm me.

Bald Student
18/12/2007, 6:28 PM
the one into the rugby team doesn't appear the most earth shattering either;Pot, kettle and another secret report.

John83
18/12/2007, 6:29 PM
Pot, kettle and another secret report.
At least they admit that it's being kept private. The FAI just claim to have lost all their copies.

onceahoop
18/12/2007, 7:05 PM
I think the FAI are doing a good job of running football in this country outside of the Eircom League. Progress is being made there but there is a lot to be done.

It appears that the FAI are totally screwing up the selection of a manager for our national team. I am loathe to comment until I see who we end up with but frankly I'd love to stop the process and just take the runner up for the Scotland job. He is likely to be streets ahead of whoever we pick.



If there doing such a good job, why are the schoolboy associations, the shoolgirl associations, the junior associations, many EL clubs and many fans disilluioned. We can't all be wrong. The common denominator in all this angst is the Chief Executive, the man who hid behind every pillar in South Africa every time he saw Gerard Houllier ( a bit like Bertie up every tree in North County Dublin looking for evidence against Ray Burke), unbelieveable. John Delaney is the elephant in the room that most members of the FAI are afraid to stand up against becuse he's surrounded himself with lackeys to do his bidding. Whatever good has been done counts for nothing if the house comes tumbling down.

pineapple stu
18/12/2007, 10:13 PM
Pot, kettle and another secret report.
Hey, at least we've heard something concrete of its conclusions!

Only heard about it at lunch time today - was on the radio news, and someone was already laying into it for being wide of the mark. I think the report suggested more games against tougher opposition to keep the team on its toes, while the person talking about the report said this was silly as you can't increase the number of games for rugby teams like you can with football teams, as rugby is much more physically demanding. As you well know, I have no time for rugby at all, so won't claim to be anything other than ignorant of it; does that make sense/is that what's being said?

The thread here also noted that it seemed to be fairly obvious in its conclusions and lacking any real insight. That's all I'm going on for the rugby report; I know the eL one was utterly useless.


So Eoghan Rice says. Not the same thing at all.
In fairness, I think the info about Mooney looking for Genesis was come across completely independently (as in, I think Emmet was on to Rice, who mentioned it in passing). If it was his reply in the interview, then I'd be cynical, but less so when the info is third hand like this. (Note "less so" still implies some cynicism!!)


Wasn't there a row recently between the SFAI (schools' body) and the FAI? What was that about?

pete
18/12/2007, 10:13 PM
I am no apologist for the FAI but certain sections of the Irish media love to bash the FAI with complete lack of constructive criticism.

Had the displeasure of reading the Evening Herald tonight & particularly pointless criticism by Hyland. For some reason the FAI get criticised for unknown cost over runs on the new Lansdowne put no mention of the IRFU.

Superhoops
19/12/2007, 12:10 AM
See, the problem I have with this is that it reads like a string of sound-bytes - all very impressive, but again, backed up by nothing tangible.

The bit highlighted in bold particularly undermines your post. Have you seen the Genesis Report? If you say you have, you're either -

(a) a senior FAI official, in which case, get back to work.
(b) an international player, in which case you're a liar or
(c) a liar, because no-one outside of that group has seen the report. Even Noel Mooney couldn't get a hand on a copy when he went looking recently.

Moving on from that, how do you know the report was implemented? Was the report good or bad? The report into the league was god-awful tripe, and the one into the rugby team doesn't appear the most earth shattering either; it's quite possible the report into the FAI was of a similar standard. In which case, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a good thing the report's recommendations were implemented, even if they were.

Such gaping holes in your post leave me inclined to wonder about the rest of it.

To put your troubled mind at rest, no I don't work for the FAI nor am I an official senior or otherwise, no I am not an international player and no I am not a liar and no I have not read the full report.

However, the main recommendations of that report have been published and to the best of my knowledge no one who has had access to the full report has ever challenged those published recommendations as not being accurate.

I assume you have had access to the full report, otherwise you are hardly in a position to be calling me or anyone else a liar.

We do know that in respect of the manangement structure of the FAI, the Genesis recommendations (as published and unchallenged) have been implemented. They were agreed at the FAI's 2003 AGM and that is a matter of record. Whether the report was good or bad is a matter of opinion for those that had access to it but the full FAI Council certainly must have agreed the recommendations were good for Irish footbal, otherwise they would have hardly voted to implement them.

Personally, I think that grass roots soccer in Ireland generally is in the best shape it has ever been, some on here agree with that and others don't, that what opinions are all about.

I am not sure what you consider would be something tangible to back that up but I would think that initiatves like;
- the Technical Development plan
- the Emerging Talent programme
- Football for all initiative
- Summer Soccer Schools
- the Buntus programme
- the Development programme for the womens game
- the Referees Development programme
- the Coach Education programme
- the Intercultural plan
- the Regional Development Officers programme
are all good examples. If that sounds like a string of sound bytes then so be it.

Bald Student
19/12/2007, 12:54 AM
Hey, at least we've heard something concrete of its conclusions!
No more than the soccer one. The Genesis people gave a presentation to the IRFU board who then told us what was said. The information is coming to us third hand so you shouldn't be surprised that it contains no controversial conclusions. The IRFU even declined receiving a paper copy of the report to ensure that no evidence of the report remains, other than what they tell us happened.

blobbyblob
19/12/2007, 12:57 PM
why are the schoolboy associations, the shoolgirl associations, the junior associations, many EL clubs and many fans disilluioned. We can't all be wrong.

What associations exactly do you speak of? Do you have any first hand involvement in any of the clubs or associations that you can back up your point with? I hope your not believing everything you're reading in the Evening Hearld now?

Im aware that there are 7 clubs in Dublin who have a grievance and they dont like the way they were treated by the SFAI but theres nothing new there. That kind of political nonsence has been going on for years and not just in the FAI. (Personally I believe its about power more than football but thats another days work)

pineapple stu
19/12/2007, 5:08 PM
No more than the soccer one. The Genesis people gave a presentation to the IRFU board who then told us what was said. The information is coming to us third hand so you shouldn't be surprised that it contains no controversial conclusions. The IRFU even declined receiving a paper copy of the report to ensure that no evidence of the report remains, other than what they tell us happened.
Fair enough. Do you want to try get a copy for STIG next year?:p


However, the main recommendations of that report have been published and to the best of my knowledge no one who has had access to the full report has ever challenged those published recommendations as not being accurate.
No-one has ever challenged the report? Who do you expect to challenge it? "Excuse me, but I believe my job/my best mate's job ought to be downsized according to the Genesis Report"? "Excuse me John, but you shouldn't in your position according to Genesis?" The media? They didn't challenge the flagrant problems with the eL report; they're hardly going to go to the trouble of finding and then reading the original report to tell us whether it was implemented or not. No-one else has access to the report.


We do know that in respect of the manangement structure of the FAI, the Genesis recommendations (as published and unchallenged) have been implemented.
The only people who have said that Genesis was implemented are (a) the FAI and (b) Genesis, two organisations whose reputations have been shot to ribbons in recent times.

What were the main recommendations of the report? Only one I remember is ensuring a new CEO was hired from the outside. Didn't happen (althoguh we had a set of mock interviews to give it that appearance...)

Have you given any consideration as to whether Genesis should have been implemented? Or are you blindly assuming it was all good? Again, based on their eL report, that's a very dangerous assumption.


I assume you have had access to the full report, otherwise you are hardly in a position to be calling me or anyone else a liar.
No; I can not see something and call you a liar for saying you've seen it. As it turns out, you've said you haven't seen it, in which case, I don't need to call you a liar. But I can (and will) call you ignorant for commenting on something you've not seen, when all indications are that it's quite possibly not as you believe it to be.

You're being very very naive...

John83
19/12/2007, 5:42 PM
Fair enough. Do you want to try get a copy for STIG next year?:p
I tried yesterday.



Dear John,

The report was delivered to the committee last night. The report will not be published as much of the content is confidential as the information was provided to Genesis under strict confidentiality by the players, staff and management. However, the main findings have been made public in the statement released last night.

Regards,

jbyrne
19/12/2007, 6:10 PM
Had the displeasure of reading the Evening Herald tonight & particularly pointless criticism by Hyland. For some reason the FAI get criticised for unknown cost over runs on the new Lansdowne put no mention of the IRFU.

that is typical hyland drivel. what substance did he have to his scrawl??
there is no mention of the project going over budget anywhere else and if it was then surely some proper journalists who actually bother to investigate these things would have got wind of it?

Superhoops
19/12/2007, 8:31 PM
No-one has ever challenged the report? Who do you expect to challenge it? "Excuse me, but I believe my job/my best mate's job ought to be downsized according to the Genesis Report"? "Excuse me John, but you shouldn't in your position according to Genesis?" ...Genesis recommended the Board of Management be reduced from 23 to 10 and that a number of external professionals were recruited to replace some senior personnel who has held posts having been elected through committees.

This recommendation was adopted by the full council and implemented. The BoM now consists of 10. Pat Costello, Declan Conroy and Tadgh O'Halloran were brought in from outside the FAI.


No-one else has access to the report....If it was a report commissioned by the FAI why should anyone outside the FAI have access to it?


The only people who have said that Genesis was implemented are (a) the FAI and (b) Genesis, two organisations whose reputations have been shot to ribbons in recent times..... It would be reasonable to assume the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism at the time, John O’Donoghue, who had warned the FAI to get their house in order or risk losing up to €2 million in funding, was satisfied that the recommendations of the Genesis Report were being implemented, otherwise the Govt. would hardly have continued funding FAI projects.


What were the main recommendations of the report? Only one I remember is ensuring a new CEO was hired from the outside. Didn't happen (althoguh we had a set of mock interviews to give it that appearance)..... The Genesis report was delivered towards the end of 2002, The first CEO was appointed in 2003, Fran Rooney, remember him? Did he not come in from outside?


No; I can not see something and call you a liar for saying you've seen it. As it turns out, you've said you haven't seen it, in which case, I don't need to call you a liar. But I can (and will) call you ignorant for commenting on something you've not seen, ).....
Assume from that remark you consider yourself ignorant as well for commenting on something you also have not seen!

What a crass notion that if someone comments on something they have not seen, they are ignorant :confused:


You're being very very naive...Your opinion, not one that I have much time for, but if I am, I can live with it.

Bald Student
20/12/2007, 12:58 AM
No-one has ever challenged the report? Who do you expect to challenge it? "Excuse me, but I believe my job/my best mate's job ought to be downsized according to the Genesis Report"? "Excuse me John, but you shouldn't in your position according to Genesis?" The media? They didn't challenge the flagrant problems with the eL report; they're hardly going to go to the trouble of finding and then reading the original report to tell us whether it was implemented or not. No-one else has access to the report.Wasn't there an article in STIG about this?


The Mystery of the Disappearing Genesis Report
The Story of STIG’s attempts to get a copy of the first Genesis Report

Before the start of this season I was writing an article for STIG and needed to check something from the first Genesis Report. I don’t have a copy of the report so I made a freedom of information request to the Dept. of Sport which I sent off at the start of February, in plenty of time to be ready for our first home game. Two weeks later the Dept. got back to me to say that the FOI request was unnecessary as the report is freely available from the FAI and the Dept. had forwarded on my request.

I hadn’t heard anything from the FAI two weeks later. It was the start of March and my print deadline was approaching so I sent an email to the person in Merrion Square who was dealing with it. I heard nothing from her so I decided to get back in touch with the Dept. In our previous correspondence, the Dept. hadn’t answered my FOI request directly so I sent the following email:

“I’ve not heard anything back from the FAI about this. Do you mind if I repeat my earlier question, would it be available from you if I made an FOI request?
Thanks again,
John”

to which the Dept. replied:

“John
I have just spoken to [FAI employee] who informed me that she thought it had been sent to you. She will follow it up for you now.
Regards”

This was a bit odd as the FAI didn’t have my address at the time so couldn’t have sent me the report. I waited a week for the FAI to follow up with me and, having heard nothing, I wrote to them to ask if there was any progress. I received the reply;

“Hi John,
Yes I had replied to you to say that I was just waiting for some clean copies to come in from the stores, they should have been here yesterday, I will give you a call as soon as one arrives.”

Again, I thought this a little odd as the FAI employee didn’t have my phone number to call me but I gave her my address so as she could send me out the report. This was on 12th March.
Having heard nothing for a month I emailed the FAI again on 17th April. After another month I had received no response so I emailed the Dept. of Sport on 10th May;

“I never received that report from the FAI and they have not answered the last few e-mails I've sent them about it.
Do you mind if I repeat my earlier question, would the report be available from your department under a freedom of information request (or by any other method)? I would appreciate if you could answer this question directly as I have gotten the impression that the FAI is avoiding sending me out the report.
Thanks and sorry for having to trouble you again,
John”

I received the response the following day;

"John, I have just spoken to [the same FAI employee] in the FAI and she has informed me that the Genesis Report was sent out to you. She is to email you to check if the address she used was correct. I have checked with our Sports Unit and as it's an FAI Report it would not be available from this Department under Freedom of Information. However it should be available from the FAI. It would appear it got lost in the post. If you wish to contact the FAI by telephone their number is 01 XXXXXXX."

That was five months ago and I have not yet heard back from the FAI about this. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the FAI wants to give the impression that the Genesis Report is a publicly available document but at the same time, they don’t seem to want to hand out copies. Every request I made for the document was ignored and whenever the Dept. of Sport made the request on my behalf an excuse was given as to why I hadn’t received it.
If this document is forming the basis of the development and governance of the game I would expect it to be available to any member of the ‘family of football’. Firstly because it’s an important document in its own right and secondly because keeping it confidential gives the impression that something is being hidden, particularly when the FAI is going to some trouble to hide the fact that it is being kept confidential.
I have to stay open to the possibility that this is all one big misunderstanding resulting from ten or so separate pieces of communication between me and the FAI falling into a big black hole but that seems unlikely. I have never had problems with my email and I have been living at the same address for over 20 years without having any problems with my post.
Finally, I’m still looking for a copy of the report, despite having missed my deadline by about 7 months and counting. If anyone has a copy feel free to let one of us know.

Stuttgart88
20/12/2007, 9:31 AM
There was an article on implementing Genesis in yesterday's Examiner:


19 December 2007

Putting Genesis changes to work a work in progress for FAI

By Liam Mackey, Soccer correspondent

IT WAS the Bible rewritten: from revelation to Genesis, rather than the other way around.


The revelation was the shock of Saipan and Roy Keane’s withering criticism of the organisation — or lack of it — surrounding the senior international team’s preparations for the 2002 World Cup. Genesis was the name of the management consultancy group whose eponymous report into the fiasco went way beyond the still fresh controversy to recommend sweeping changes in the FAI.


Five years on, most of those recommendations have been implemented but the journey from there to here has not been without its bumpy passages.

The Genesis Report was particularly critical of the Association’s structures and called for a new “culture of professionalism”.

To help achieve that, it recommended a streamlining of the management structure as well as a number of key senior professional appointments. An FAI steering committee was established to oversee the implementation of Genesis and by the time of the Association’s AGM the following year, the FAI Council was able to rubberstamp a reduction in the Board of Management from 23 members to 10. But the appointment of senior executives — an urgent target of the report — proved more problematic.

After the chaos and controversy surrounding the departure of CEO Fran Rooney in November of 2004, Sports Council funding was temporarily withheld and FAI officials were called in by then Sports Minister John O’Donoghue and given a severe dressing down. O’Donoghue reaffirmed his backing for the reforms set out in Genesis, appointed his own watchdog on the joint Irish Sports Council/FAI Liason Group overseeing the process and, as an official Department statement put it, told the Merrion Square delegation that “the continuation of organisational turbulence within the FAI was a matter of serious concern to him and the Government.”

The FAI got the message and by the time Delaney was finally installed as a permanent chief executive in March 2005, good relations with the Government had been restored. And when Mark O’ Leary was appointed Financial Director the following June, John O’Donoghue welcomed the appointment, the Irish Sports Council recognised that “significant efforts and advances” had been made and the FAI even received a thumbs-up from the authors of the report itself.

Said Genesis CEO Alistair Gray: “It is clear that the need for transformation of the FAI has been accepted and acted upon. Significantly, the culture of discipline, lacking in 2002, is now clearly evident and in place, together with a new, more professional ethos.”

But Genesis remains a work in progress.

“We’re still implementing it,” says an FAI source. “They recommended a Director Of International Performance and that position has still to be filled. We’ve advertised for it and we have a London-based sports recruiting company working on it. That person’s role will be to work with the underage managers in terms of improving the quality and quantity of the elite players coming through the system. It’s all about producing players which, hopefully, the senior manager will be able to pick from. In terms of implementing Genesis, the Director of International Performance would probably be the last piece of the jigsaw.”

And Genesis haven’t gone away, they’ve been back since to deliver a sobering indictment of the eircom League, as a result of which major and often controversial changes continue to be implemented in the running of domestic football, with more to follow. Currently, Genesis are engaged in a review of the amateur game and in the near future will turn their attention to schoolboy football.

It all began, as the rugby inquest has now begun, with a World Cup appearance which became mired in acrimony — although it’s worth remembering that the soccer players faired better than their rugby counterparts. For the FAI, it was a chance to break with the past but, after the crushing setback of Steve Staunton’s reign and the controversy surrounding the search for his successor, it’s questions about the future which concern people now.

Superhoops
20/12/2007, 11:31 AM
There was an article on implementing Genesis in yesterday's Examiner:


19 December 2007

Putting Genesis changes to work a work in progress for FAI

By Liam Mackey, Soccer correspondent

IT WAS the Bible rewritten: from revelation to Genesis, rather than the other way around.


The revelation was the shock of Saipan and Roy Keane’s withering criticism of the organisation — or lack of it — surrounding the senior international team’s preparations for the 2002 World Cup. Genesis was the name of the management consultancy group whose eponymous report into the fiasco went way beyond the still fresh controversy to recommend sweeping changes in the FAI.


Five years on, most of those recommendations have been implemented but the journey from there to here has not been without its bumpy passages.....
.

Stutts, thanks for bringing this to the table.

No doubt, Pineapple Stu will be on soon telling us it all lies and that Liam Mackey is liar or at least ignorant for commenting on something he never read. :rolleyes:

John83
20/12/2007, 11:39 AM
“We’re still implementing it,” says an FAI source.
Contrast this with the claim that they've lost all their copies, even the electronic ones, and you get an idea of what some of us have run up against.
Superhoops, how does Liam Mackey know what's been implemented? I'd love to know. In fact, I'm going to ask, because if he has a copy of the report, then fair dues, but I'll bet he doesn't, and this is going on an FAI press release, or a quiet chat with an FAI official - either way, unquestioned reporting of the FAI's version of the truth.

John83
20/12/2007, 11:50 AM
Fran & the FAI: a marriage made in hell

Conor Keane 8th November 2004
Football Association of Ireland Chief Executive Fran Rooney resigns after weeks of infighting and acrimony
“The FAI has an honourable past, is experiencing a confused present and faces an uncertain future. If the Association is to achieve credibility as a competent, imaginative and professional governing body for Irish soccer, it needs to press ahead with a major overhaul of its decision-making structures and administration.”
Sound familiar? You’d be forgiven for thinking it’s a quote straight out of Genesis. Sadly, no. In 1996, following the “Merriongate” crisis over ticket purchasing, management consultants Ray Cass carried out an investigation into the operations of the Association. Cass criticised the FAI for its “lack of vision, direction and planning, its fragmented and indecisive structures and its marked reluctance to consider necessary change.” The blueprint, uncannily similar in content to Genesis, outlined just how the FAI could, and needed to, implement reform so as to become a competent, competitive body. Yet the people entrusted to implement these changes were the very ones cited in Genesis six years later.
The Saipan debacle took its pound of flesh. The nation was divided. Roy Keane sacrificed a place in the World Cup finals. Mick McCarthy fell on his sword after a pretty decent spell in charge of the national team. So just how was it possible that, bar general secretary Brendan Menton’s decision to step aside from his £150,000-a-year job (to take up other duties within the FAI), not one of the officers in Merrion Square initially felt the Genesis report warranted resignation? How did the game’s incompetent administrators avoid the axe?
The simple answer is that they control, regulate and discipline themselves. They play the game patiently, politically. It can be a long, 20-year journey to the illustrious ranks of the FAI senior council.
Upon publication of Genesis the report was welcomed in general terms by most of the FAI. What some of them refused to accept, though, was the nitty-gritty. When Milo Corcoran spoke in Athens in November 2002 about the association’s enthusiasm to implement the report over a period of five years, it startled FAI Treasurer John Delaney. He had been talking about getting much of Genesis done in 12 months, knowing too well the fate of those reformers in the past who had stalled for consultation after consultation and watched their modernisation get bogged down, as the Hollywood saying goes, in “development hell”.
“It seems to me,” Saint Patrick’s Athletic chairman and committed reformer Andy O’Callaghan said at the time, “that some of the forces lined up on this are the forces that are against Genesis. That is a perception I and others would have.”
The Genesis report recommended five senior professional appointments to be made to manage the FAI – a chief executive, a director of finance, and a director of communications, director of performance and director of football operations. When he took the chief executive’s role, Fran Rooney was hailed as the business-savvy entrepreneur who would turn the association round. But in the FAI change comes with a walking stick. The programme of reform did indeed get off to a good start when a number of senior personnel were replaced and Brian Kerr was appointed as manager, but the FAI didn’t take steps to address long-term reform. The bickering that was a feature under the old regime returned in force and the time scale of key reforms was allowed to slip. The appointment of a Chief Executive officer was supposed to have taken place in the first 3 months of the publication of the report in the summer of 2002. Rooney wasn’t given the job until June 2003.
The key thing for Rooney was getting the senior management in place. Yet his determination to have the positions filled met with fierce resistance from the board of the FAI. Of particular concern was the fact that no moves were made to appoint a director of performance who would liaise with the senior international team manager. That was the most important missing ingredient when Keane’s relationship with Mick McCarthy soured in Saipan.
His bid to revolutionise the administrative structures governing Irish soccer by bringing the previously stand-alone eircom league under the administrative wing of the FAI led to a hostile reaction from the league’s two most powerful officials. The eircom League at the time was receiving little or no investment and Rooney’s efforts were a genuine attempt to put in place structures to make the league a viable entity in the future.
Yet despite this, league chairman Brendan Dillon and general manager Tommy Allen resigned, with the former insisting that he would never again work with the
FAI as long as Rooney and Treasurer John Delaney were involved. The league was their route to the senior council and Rooney’s proposals jeopardized this.
Rooney’s strength of character to make decisions and face up to the guys who had presided over years of mediocrity in the FAI made him many enemies within its ranks. His resignation last Wednesday, after a long and protracted offensive against him, was the inevitable outcome of this episode of the Genesis war. The politics of Merrion Square were foreign to him as an outsider to the administrative side of football (Rooney once managed Ireland’s women footballers). By taking on the men in charge he was taking on men who knew how to fight and knew the ground they were fighting on.
Despite his faults, and he had many, Rooney tried to bring some structure to an organisation where, according to the Genesis report, there was “no culture of discipline” in FAI management, and basic management techniques were non existent. “The present structure, which includes voluntary leadership and professional management, is incompatible,” it said. “Sweeping change” was what was recommended, was what Rooney was mandated to bring.
Liam Brady said on Tuesday night: “the suits will keep their suits”. And so they have. On Thursday the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, John O’Donoghue warned the FAI to get their house in order or risk losing up to €2 million in funding. It may just be the only way to get them to allow their next chief executive to implement the changes that are long overdue.




Indo: 11/11/04
THE FAI will decide today if it is going to go against the Government's wishes and appoint an interim chief executive for an 18-month period.

The association's Board of Management and National Council will hold back-to-back meetings at Citywest this afternoon to discuss how they should proceed in the wake of Fran Rooney's resignation last week.

President Milo Corcoran indicated last night that there will be a proposal on the table to appoint Honorary Treasurer John Delaney as an interim chief executive for a period of 18 months.

"We will advertise the post of Chief Executive in a year's time because at the moment there is a need to stabilise the association by appointing an interim Chief Executive. As far as I, and the people I have sounded out, are concerned John Delaney is the man to fill that position," said Corcoran.

But while Delaney is a shoo-in as interim Chief Executive there is likely to be some heated debate at both meetings over the length of time he will be in place for.

Delaney is believed to be only interested in the position if it is for an 18-month period but some directors and council members are understandably wary about going against the Government's wishes.

Today is D-Day (Delaney Day?). Today is the day that representatives of the clubs (and their fans!) will decide if it is time for a fresh start or to continue like lemmings and support Delaney. The arrogance of this guy is amazing. No doubt the Board of Management will recommend Delaney's appointment. but hopefully, common sense prevails among the National Council and the future of Irish football is put before the whims of certain individuals.

If the Government's wishes are ignored we must hope John O'Donoghue will be firm and take the appropriate action. If the proposal to install Delaney for 18 months is defeated, then the Board of Management should do the honourable thing and resign en bloc.

What is needed is a clear outcome, but I fear what will emerge will be a fudge, something at which the FAI have traditionally excelled.
Here (http://foot.ie/archive/index.php/t-19413.html)'s the take on that on foot.ie

Examiner: Genesis ‘will go ahead’ despite Rooney exit
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/11/04/story168621025.asp

Irish Emigrant
http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCategoryID=177&iArticleID=37469

The FAI board met on Thursday and ignored the Government's wishes that it implement the Genesis Report, by bringing in fresh blood at the top, and proceeded to ask treasurer John Delaney to take over the CEO position on an interim basis. The proposal went to a meeting of the full council and was approved unanimously - although it was debated for 90 minutes. Delaney wanted time to think it over, and may be still thinking, but Minister for Sport John O'Donoghue stepped in and told the FAI that under the circumstances he would have no further discussions with the association and it would not be receiving any further Government funds. By Sunday the FAI had issued a statement saying that it would advertise the CEO and Finance Director positions before the end of the year. This change of heart was welcomed by the Minister.

Superhoops
20/12/2007, 11:52 AM
Contrast this with the claim that they've lost all their copies, even the electronic ones, and you get an idea of what some of us have run up against.
Superhoops, how does Liam Mackey know what's been implemented? I'd love to know. In fact, I'm going to ask, because if he has a copy of the report, then fair dues, but I'll bet he doesn't, and this is going on an FAI press release, or a quiet chat with an FAI official - either way, unquestioned reporting of the FAI's version of the truth.

What about 'Genesis CEO Alistair Gray: “It is clear that the need for transformation of the FAI has been accepted and acted upon. Significantly, the culture of discipline, lacking in 2002, is now clearly evident and in place, together with a new, more professional ethos.” ?

Why would Alistair Gray go on record if what he was saying was blatanly untrue? I am sure Gray is more concerned about the credibility and reputation of Genesis as an organisation than he is about the FAI. Why would he risk that by making false claims?

Student Mullet
20/12/2007, 5:13 PM
What about 'Genesis CEO Alistair Gray: “It is clear that the need for transformation of the FAI has been accepted and acted upon. Significantly, the culture of discipline, lacking in 2002, is now clearly evident and in place, together with a new, more professional ethos.” ?

Why would Alistair Gray go on record if what he was saying was blatanly untrue? I am sure Gray is more concerned about the credibility and reputation of Genesis as an organisation than he is about the FAI. Why would he risk that by making false claims?

Because he was being paid by the FAI to say it?

Superhoops
20/12/2007, 6:10 PM
Because he was being paid by the FAI to say it?
Why would you pay a consultant to come in to say things that were not true if no one was going to believe what was being said anyway? Doesn't make sense! :confused:

pineapple stu
20/12/2007, 6:13 PM
I tried yesterday.

I tried yesterday.


Quote:
Dear John,

The report was delivered to the committee last night. The report will not be published as much of the content is confidential as the information was provided to Genesis under strict confidentiality by the players, staff and management. However, the main findings have been made public in the statement released last night.

Regards,

__________________

Interesting. The IRFU seem like a fairly good organisation now. They've obviously gotten a very good report and are going to implement it. Anyone who questions the report is wrong.

Student Mullet
20/12/2007, 6:13 PM
Why would you pay a consultant to come in to say things that were not true if no one was going to believe what was being said anyway? Doesn't make sense! :confused:

But a lot of people do believe him. For example, look at the number of people who believe that the Genesis Report was implemented without any of them having read it.

Getting a consultant in to say things you want said is a reasonably common tactic. Businesses, the Government and other sporting organisations do it all the time.

pineapple stu
20/12/2007, 6:24 PM
Stutts, thanks for bringing this to the table.

No doubt, Pineapple Stu will be on soon telling us it all lies and that Liam Mackey is liar or at least ignorant for commenting on something he never read. :rolleyes:
I don't know if Mackey has read it or not. I know you haven't (because you said so), so I know it's ignorant of you to say it's been implemented. i at no stage called you a liar, so that point is irrelevant.


Assume from that remark you consider yourself ignorant as well for commenting on something you also have not seen!
You're the one suggesting the FAI are now a decent organisation because of Genesis. I haven't given my opinion on the FAI. I've commented on the Genesis Report I have seen, and am poking at your assumption that the initial Genesis Report has been implemented and is good. I'm not commenting on something I haven't seen.


What a crass notion that if someone comments on something they have not seen, they are ignorant :confused:
You think it's crass to assume that Genesis is all good, without knowing what it says? Fair enough.

GavinZac
21/12/2007, 12:48 AM
FAO UCD Fans: I know its a study week, but please ease up on the essays.

Bald Student
21/12/2007, 4:57 AM
This discussion is going down a bit of a cul de sac. Superhoops' point is that there has been a lot of good change in the FAI these last few years and Pineapple's is that no one knows for sure what was in the Genesis Report since the document is kept secret. Both opinions are valid and they don't particularly contradict one another.

pineapple stu
21/12/2007, 4:27 PM
You're an awful spoil sport...

CollegeTillIDie
23/12/2007, 8:17 AM
The FAI was for years an organisation run exclusively by volunteers in the evenings after work. At one point the only professionals working in the organisation were the office staff dealing with the correspondence. A lot has changed, not just the location of their offices. However at the risk of sounding like the tail end of an election slogan '' they have a lot more to do''.

This past season they took over the EL for the first time.
It wasn't a bed or roses for sure the asterisk returned to the League table again, petty fines were issued for seemingly trivial things. However, overall the fact that time effort and money was put into promoting the League, the fact that they negotiated the best TV deal on behalf of the League in it's history to cover the next 5 years or so, indicates that some improvements have been made. Noel Mooney and the Club CPO's have been an improvement. Fran Gavin former player and PFAI chairman is now the very visible person running the affairs of the League employed by the FAI. He has been at games every weekend of the season and was at Belfield on numerous occasions.

At grassroots level while they have problems in terms of disaffection with clubs at some levels of the game , there have been improvements in terms of grants being made available for facilities and the extra Coaching back up provided by the Technical Department under Packie Bonner.

At international level the biggest disaster is the senior team without question. And they seem to be unnecessarily prolonging the process. However I will point out that in 1985/86 they accidentally got the best candidate at the time. They are being a bit more methodical with the process today.

So the FAI is a mixed bag, but to deny there have been some positive things done would be to reduce oneself to a gutter press hack.

I am not a huge fan of John Delaney, his trail of wreckage both in Merrion Square AND during his time at Waterford United stand against him. He is very Macchiavellian in his approach to behind the scenes Admin politics. He spent 10 years in the FAI behind the scenes getting even with those who caused his father to resign as far as I can see. However, he is doing SOME GOOD work and maybe when he does leave office the organisation will be in a better place than when he took over.