Burglars killed by next-door neighbour.

[osarusan]

Self-defense or vigilanteeism?

Man shoots burglars as the leave neighbour's house - From CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/17/national/main3517564.shtml)


"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.


Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

I just saw a report on this on CNN. What the CBS report doesn't show is that on 7 different occasions Mr Horn said "I'm gonna kill them" while he was told not to kill them on 9 occasions by the dispatch officer (On the CNN report, the "Boom! You're dead" comment was written as "Move n' you're dead", which is a significant difference).

Bear in mind a new law was passed on Sept 1, termed the "Castle doctrine", which grants homeowners greater powers of defense.
However, this doesn't quite fall into that category-

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth.

A poll mentioned on that link has 2:1 support for Mr. Horn, and the CNN report had a poll which showed 84% supported him (by supported they meant he should not be charged).

[strangeirish]

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KErLj83Go) the audio and video report. As far as I'm concerned, it's murder. If he gets away with this, it's going to set a bad precedent. What really gets me is that he walked outside to confront them, holding a loaded shotgun, with the expressly stated intention of killing them, and then he had the gall to claim that he had no choice!

[osarusan]

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KErLj83Go) the audio and video report. As far as I'm concerned, it's murder. If he gets away with this, it's going to set a bad precedent. What really gets me is that he walked outside to confront them, holding a loaded shotgun, with the expressly stated intention of killing them, and then he had the gall to claim that he had no choice!
yeah, on the audio you can hear him say something along the lines of "If I go out there, then I'll have no choice". He engineered a situation where he thought self defence laws would apply. He may be wrong though.

Strangeirish, is the case a big deal in the USA?

[pete]

I would go with murder too but I don't know the finer details of that law. Would not be surprised if he was acquitted under Texas law though.

The thief was leaving his neighbours house so no threat to him or anyone else.

[jebus]

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigade

[OneRedArmy]

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigadeHe'll go down.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigade

God Bless America

[jebus]

He'll go down.

He won't, there will be campaigns to make sure he doesn't. As Lionel said

[strangeirish]

Strangeirish, is the case a big deal in the USA?
It's not getting as much coverage as I thought it would. Of course Fox News[sic] is all over it with their right wing 'legal experts'. The mainstream media seems to be letting it fly under the radar for some reason.

[kingdom hoop]

Sorry Joe, it's murder/vigilanteeism for me too. Interesting case though. More so for the degree of outpouring of support for Mr. Horn than anything else. I think it shows how defensively minded and just plain scared Americans are that they will nonchalantly defend someone with little or no involvement (he said he didn't really know his neighbours) killing a burglar. Fantastic comments by one so-called Christian on that link; They were already on a path to self-destruct. Good riddance. If more people took the path of deadly force I firmly believe there would be less crime. (they actually said they were a Christian! :rolleyes:)


I would go with murder too but I don't know the finer details of that law.

Basically, you must have intended to cause death or serious injury - which he did by saying he had a shotgun and wouldn't get let them get away. And then you must actually do it too - which he did.

After that there are defences available to mitigate/explain the harm caused. None of which would appear to apply here. He knew exactly what he was doing, what he did was in no way commensurate to what the burglars were doing, and he denied the prolonged exhortations of the 911 fella. A defence of duress (that he just had to do it) may be tried. But I'd classify what he did as self-created duress - he voluntarily exposed himself to the situation, so the breastplate of righteousness should be whisked off in my opinion.

[drinkfeckarse]

Simple case of murder. He wanted to do it.

[anto1208]

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too. what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

[jebus]

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too. what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

lovely

[kingdom hoop]

if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too.

But what happens if I look out my window just as he pulls the trigger? Presumably I should shoot him in turn yeah? But just then you pull up to see my target fall so you then shoot me. Then either the police come to arrest you or some other 'Samaritan' comes along to shoot you. Either way, you ultimately end up getting ****ed

Where would we stop Anto? I saw a young fella kick a dog the other day, am I entitled to kick him in turn? You throw an ice-cream wrapper into my garden, so I pelt you with a dozen rotten eggs? (I would too, so don't you dare)

[dcfcsteve]

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too.

What if a neighbour of yours shot someone leaving your house with your property, and it turned out they were a Removal man ? Or a relative who'd come over to get some stuff ? Still ok to shoot them ? This man didn't seem to know his neighbours very well, after all. Who decides who is a burglar - the guy who just wants an excuse to shoot someone ? What if the 'suspect' is black and the guy with the gun a rascist (as very many are in America). Is it ok for him to shoot the black guy and get away with it, cuz he assumed a black guy must be a burglar...?

I've had to break into my own house recently when I got locked out. Should someone walking by have shot me as a suspected burglar ?

There wass a classic case about 7 years ago in Florida or Texas where an English man living in the US broke down in his car at night. He knocked on the door of a house nearby looking for help, the home-owner assumed he was a burglar or someone with ill-intent, and shot him dead through the door.

You see Anto - the above are the type of idiotic consequences that happen from idiotic suggestions like yours. Thank God we don't have easy access to guns in Ireland with trigger-happy macho cowboys like you around......:o


what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

I can't believe you have the stupidity to ask "what should he do". How's about calling the police ? :confused: If he wanted to be of extra help he could've taken a good look at the person to provide a detailed description, covertly taken a photo/video footage of them, noted care registration plates etc etc etc. If he was able to have a big debate about shooting them, and then go off and do it, he certainly had the time to do all of that. Or call me old fashioned - but he could just have confronted the guy with his shotgun without murdering him; only using the weapon if he absolutely had to.

What about if your neighbours house was on fire ? Would you jump ion with a hose, or do like the ad says : "Get out, stay out, get the Fire Brigade out". I guess spraying water isn't as much fun as bullets though, eh....

This is a case of murder - plain and simple. There will be right-wing cam,paigns etc, but I struggle to see how any vaguely sane judge can decide anythign other than the fact that this guy went out with the express intetnion of killing another man, regardless of the danger he may or may not have faced. Tyhat's why it's murder.

[pete]

Guy should have called the police. Based on TV expertise he would have had 5 squad cars there in less than 5 minutes assuming he lived in leafy suburb.

[strangeirish]

Who decides who is a burglar - the guy who just wants an excuse to shoot someone ? What if the 'suspect' is black and the guy with the gun a rascist (as very many are in America). Is it ok for him to shoot the black guy and get away with it, cuz he assumed a black guy must be a burglar...?

You don't know how close you are to the truth there,dcfcsteve. The burglars were Hispanic. Knowing the Texas mentality, I don't believe this guy would have shot them if they were white. That may sound juvenile and over simplistic, but in Texas, if you ain't white, you ain't right. Sad, but true I'm afraid.

[anto1208]

They are just all what if stories its as silly as me saying what if this burgular went to the next house and stabbed an old woman would you be happy with that knowing it could have been stopped.

Taking a discription etc would do no good , look at the story last week of a house getting robbed the owners disturbed them so the robbers came back later that night and shot the place up. the family had to move out after 24 years living there. they can call the cops give them discriptions whats going to happen F all thats what.

If he wasnt robbing houses he wouldnt be dead. its liek that frog ward case a while back , dont rob houses you won't get shot.

Where the robbers wearing masks and breaking in a window when he saw them i dont know many delivery men that use that method.

[John83]

Guy should have called the police. Based on TV expertise he would have had 5 squad cars there in less than 5 minutes assuming he lived in leafy suburb.
He did call the police. At least I assume he did. I suppose the 911 call mention in the first post in this thread could have been for mountain rescue.

[strangeirish]

Here's a video from one of the local Fox channels. Sickening, (http://rackjite.com/archives/964-Pasadena-Texas-Joe-Horn-NEW-raw-video-of-Demonstration.html)
if you ask me.

[OneRedArmy]

He won't, there will be campaigns to make sure he doesn't. As Lionel said
Put your money where your mouth is.

I'd take the US judiciary over ours any day, flawed as both may be.

[jebus]

Here's a video from one of the local Fox channels. Sickening, (http://rackjite.com/archives/964-Pasadena-Texas-Joe-Horn-NEW-raw-video-of-Demonstration.html)
if you ask me.

God I love Fox News, really put into focus how **** this world is. Stephanie Storey speaks a lot of sense towards the end of that video


Put your money where your mouth is.

€50 says you didn't watch SI's Fox video just there

[micls]

They are just all what if stories its as silly as me saying what if this burgular went to the next house and stabbed an old woman would you be happy with that knowing it could have been stopped.

Taking a discription etc would do no good , look at the story last week of a house getting robbed the owners disturbed them so the robbers came back later that night and shot the place up. the family had to move out after 24 years living there. they can call the cops give them discriptions whats going to happen F all thats what.

If he wasnt robbing houses he wouldnt be dead. its liek that frog ward case a while back , dont rob houses you won't get shot.

Where the robbers wearing masks and breaking in a window when he saw them i dont know many delivery men that use that method.

So basically your saying any theft deserves the death penalty? Would you apply the same to every other crime?

A man quite clearly wanted to kill another human being, went outside when he had a choice not to and shot him. That is murder.

[Noelys Guitar]

Remember the 16 year old Japanese exchange student shot dead in Louisianna. This happened in 1992.
Baton Rouge, Lousiana--October 17, 1992--8:30 P.M....

“A Japanese exchange student, Yoshihiro Hattori, was searching for a
party he had been invited to. Thinking he had found the house in which
the social would take place, Yoshihiro knocked on the door. Not
knowing that they had the wrong house Yoshihiro and his companion
startled the proprietor. After having the front door shut in their
face the two boys began walking back to Yoshihiro's car. Yoshihiro
Hattori and his friend, Webb Haymaker, then turned back towards the
house upon hearing the carport door open behind them. Instead of
seeing the party's host, these two boys were greeted by a " 'Freeze' "
and a .44 Magnum-carrying Rodney Peairs. Yoshihiro, thinking he had
found the party after all, stepped towards Mr. Peairs and said, "
'We're here for the party' ". Webb Haymaker then found himself
standing over his dying friend, Yoshihiro Hattore, a victim of
unintentional homicide.”
Peairs was acquitted of all charges by a jury after only 3 hours.

[anto1208]

I wonder if i checked through the gangland crime thread would i find some of ye saying things along the lines of " as long as they are killing each other i dont care" or are ye jumping up and down looking for the guys that killed Marlo Hyland to be brought to justice. Balls ye are.

The most annoyed i got at the vid was the girlfriend of one of them saying "we know they where doing wrong" well if you knew they where going out robbing houses why didnt you stop them !!!!

What if the cops came and shot them would that make it any different ?

[anto1208]

Remember the 16 year old Japanese exchange student shot dead in Louisianna. This happened in 1992.
Baton Rouge, Lousiana--October 17, 1992--8:30 P.M....

.

Thats a question about the trigger happy gun culture in america rather than its ok to shoot burgulars, how you can link a totally inoccent kid in with scum bag burgulars is beyond me.

Can we stick to this case or can i start linking to stories like...

Remember the poor old 75 year old man that was tied up and left to die by burgulars there a few weeks ago down in cork ?

No threads started about him? no we'll ignore that and get upset about some scumbags getting shot. Priorities lads ??

[gustavo]

The most annoyed i got at the vid was the girlfriend of one of them saying "we know they where doing wrong" well if you knew they where going out robbing houses why didnt you stop them !!!!

What if the cops came and shot them would that make it any different ?

Maybe because people cant just go round taking the law into their own hands , handing down their own form of justice

[anto1208]

Maybe because people cant just go round taking the law into their own hands , handing down their own form of justice

Oh right so if i walking up town later and see an old woman being attacked i cant knock the attacker out because i cant hand out my own form of justice.

You are forgetting these are adults as adults
they chose to rob this house

So the logical conclusion is its there fault.

People have to be responsible for there actions.

[gustavo]

You are forgetting these are adults as adults
they chose to rob this house

So the logical conclusion is its there fault.

People have to be responsible for there actions.

Is there a death penalty for burgalry in those states?

[jebus]

You are forgetting these are adults as adults
they chose to rob this house

So the logical conclusion is its there fault.


This is true, it is their fault they were robbing the house, and they should have served the right sentence. Just as ******** who shot them should serve the right sentence for wandering out and murdering the two robbers when there was no need to (Cops were on the way). Justice will prevail and all that

[micls]

I wonder if i checked through the gangland crime thread would i find some of ye saying things along the lines of " as long as they are killing each other i dont care" or are ye jumping up and down looking for the guys that killed Marlo Hyland to be brought to justice. Balls ye are.

The most annoyed i got at the vid was the girlfriend of one of them saying "we know they where doing wrong" well if you knew they where going out robbing houses why didnt you stop them !!!!

What if the cops came and shot them would that make it any different ?

Why do you seem to think the only option was for them to be shot? Could the cops not just have arrested them? And they could have done their time for burglary?

[anto1208]

Why do you seem to think the only option was for them to be shot? Could the cops not just have arrested them? And they could have done their time for burglary?

I dont think its the only option i just dont think the guy that shot them should get done for murder for protecting his neighbours house.

[micls]

I dont think its the only option i just dont think the guy that shot them should get done for murder for protecting his neighbours house.

How is he protecting his neighbours house?

1) They were already leaving the house, they had the loot and hadnt hurt anyone. Why could he not have waited for the police to recover the goods. Or are your neighbours possessions now worth someones life?

2)How did he know for certain the were burglars?

3)He was told by the authorities repeatedly not to shoot? He ignored them and shot anyway. How is this not vigilantism?

It's a great excuse to have though if he gets away with it. Well they were committing a crime so I had every right to kill them. Next time I see someone rob something from a shop I'l try the same.

[Lim till i die]

Do ye all know all the ins and outs of the case??

He could have been constantly tormented like that Nally chap.

Very easy to sit at your computer screen and pass judgement.

Only fact I can see so far is if that man wasn't out robbing that house he wouldn't be dead

[micls]

Do ye all know all the ins and outs of the case??

He could have been constantly tormented like that Nally chap.That makes it alright so. Who's this He your talking about. The lad who shot him? There's no mention whatsoever of the burglars doing anything at all to him.

Im basing my posts on the facts being presented with. Obviously if these are changed then people can revise their opinions.


Only fact I can see so far is if that man wasn't out robbing that house he wouldn't be dead

There's plenty of other facts. If your man had followed the orders of the operator he wouldn't be dead.

[GavinZac]

I dont think its the only option i just dont think the guy that shot them should get done for murder for protecting his neighbours house.

if the guy is on the way out, he's not protecting anything. he's going after the criminal.

[Lim till i die]

That makes it alright so. .

Where did I say it makes it alright :confused:


Who's this He your talking about. The lad who shot him?

Got it in one.


There's no mention whatsoever of the burglars doing anything at all to him.

I never said they did :confused:


If your man had followed the orders of the operator he wouldn't be dead

True.

But then again


if that man wasn't out robbing that house he wouldn't be dead

[GavinZac]

if that man wasn't out robbing that house he wouldn't be dead
the appropriate consequences of robbing a house do not include death, id imagine a a prison sentence. (although, it is texas).

If I robbed a shop and was strolling out with the cash as no threat to anyone, I'd be rather uppity about my rights and justice and all that if someone had the cheek to kill me.

[Lim till i die]

the appropriate consequences of robbing a house do not include death

I never said they do :confused:

[GavinZac]

I never said they do :confused:

You're saying its not right to pass judgement on the guy for shooting a fleeing suspect. It is. In fact, the judgement has already been made and it is against the law.

This is an open-and-shut case, especially with the transcripts.

[Lim till i die]

You're saying its not right to pass judgement on the guy for shooting a fleeing suspect.

No I'm not. :confused:

Here's what I said:


Very easy to sit at your computer screen and pass judgement.

Which it is.

[GavinZac]

No I'm not. :confused:
Here's what I said:
Which it is.

Oh. I thought you were making some relevant input to the thread rather than commenting on the increasingly user-friendly nature of today's personal computers. In that case, I agree with you.

Carry on.

[Lim till i die]

Oh. I thought you were making some relevant input to the thread

Please try and read my posts more carefully in future.


On the question of whether shooting a retreating man constitutes murder, I would have to say Yes, obviously.

Whether you'll find a jury to convict him is another matter.

Sometimes bad things happen to bad people.

It doesn't make these things right but it does make a lot of people not care that much.

[osarusan]

NY Times article on the story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/13texas.html?ref=us

[OneRedArmy]

NY Times article on the story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/13texas.html?ref=usSo they were shot in the back but were approaching the guy with the gun at the time......

Backwards presumably?

[DmanDmythDledge]

So they were shot in the back but were approaching the guy with the gun at the time......

Backwards presumably?
Seems to me that they ran in the direction of Horn (intentionly/unintentionly) but then turned back around when they saw him with the shotgun.

It's clear that Horn had in his mind to kill them before he got outside but he may get away with it if it is proved that the robbers ran his direction when he initially went outside.

[gee wizz]

You wouldn't want be anything other than white in that state they seem to be killing anyone of colour be the black,hispanic or any other minority for fun with no conseqences for their actions the police had killed a 15 year old black teenager for pulling out a hairbrush a few weeks before,so i know where i'm not goping on holidays this year y'all.

[Stuttgart88]

One of the best football chnats (this is foot.ie after all) I heard in recent years was Norwich singing "we shout burg-u-lars, we shoot bur-u-lars" to the tune of "ooh ah paul mcgrath". Yer man Michael Martin was from Norfolk.

[anto1208]

I presume if they where coming from around the back or sides and he was in the front lawn they would be coming towards him and if they turned when the gun went off it would hit them in the back.

2 illegal imigrants one who got life for dealing and deported where robbing houses and got shot , not only should they not be in the house they shouldnt be in the country. last time the cops caught them they clearly got away with it and just snuck back into the country .

Well they wont be breaking anymore laws now will they. 2 scumbags got shot who cares.

[jebus]

The law apparantly anto, and the scumbags family