Hypocrisy

[paul_oshea]

the final chapter.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1207/crib.html

People on this forum, and in Ireland generaly now are affront to the power the church has in this day and age. They castigate the church, when suits, but on the other hand, xmas etc is still the biggest phenomenon in Eire and women ( along with their husbands, many included on this forum I'm sure ) still crave the "big church wedding". This hypocrisy really winds me up, partly because I go to mass nearly every week, but it wouldn't bother me if I didnt get married in the church, yet those who dont go assume its their "god" given right to have their big lovely day in the church, but yet when it suits will be the first on the bandwagon to complain about the church. :mad:

I'm pretty sure I could name the more prominent members on this forum who would be the first to do this also.

Discuss.....

[Macy]

That ad was banned under legislation. Blame the FF politicians that brought it in in 88, and amended it in 2001.

I agree we should go back to original meaning of Christmas time - the pagan winter solstice festivals, and their traditions of logs, trees, holly, misletoe. Happy midwinter one and all.

The church should be delighted that people still want to get married in them and maintain some connection, given the way attendances are dropping. And most priests seem to agree, only the fundamentalists seem to have a problem with it. Much better to maintain the connection voluntary through marriages and christenings that the effective blackmailing through the schooling system which is happening all over Ireland.

[DIFChick]

You said it all in your post Macy and I agree with ya all the way.

[Magicme]

I dont got to mass. When I got married it was a civil cermony on the beach in Barbados. I didn't want to baptise my children but pressure from family caved me in. I gave my kids the choice if they wanted to make their 1st communion & confirmation. They choose to do so mainly coz everyone in their class was doing it and didnt want to be left out.

For me Christmas stopped being religious 14 yrs ago and now it is an amazingly beautiful time when my family (including my aunt & uncle from holland, granny, other aunt, her kids and their kids) all descend on my parents home and we have the time of our lives together. It is a few days where we put our busy lives aside and really really enjoy each others company. The presents and food are secondary to the love that is in the house on that day.

Its a tradition borne out of a religious event but the religion plays no place in it anymore for me. Like Macy, I would like to see it back to the truer tradition of celebrating that you are still alive and have family in the dead of winter.

[Macy]

Actually, reading the link that Paul provided for the basis for his rant, the ad wasn't even banned - RTE said veritas should run it past the BCI to see whether it complied with the legislation and veritas didn't bother their hole and changed it instead. PC Gone Mad indeed :rolleyes:

[endabob1]

I agree we should go back to original meaning of Christmas time - the pagan winter solstice festivals, and their traditions of logs, trees, holly, misletoe. Happy midwinter one and all.

The church should be delighted that people still want to get married in them and maintain some connection, given the way attendances are dropping. And most priests seem to agree, only the fundamentalists seem to have a problem with it. Much better to maintain the connection voluntary through marriages and christenings that the effective blackmailing through the schooling system which is happening all over Ireland.

Agree with paragraph 2 but not the first one, regardless of Christmas's origins as a pagan festival it became a Christian festival under Roman Emperor Constantine and so for almost 1700 years it has been a Christian festival.
Your midwinter festival & Christmas should be able to co-exist, if you are into Christianity and all it entails, celbrate Christmas to your hearts desire.
If you are into sun-worshiping (As the holy Roman Empire was pre-Constantine) then howl at the moon (or whatever sun-worshippers do) during the Winter Solstice, to your hearts content.
As with most modern day festivals they draw traditions from more than one original source but if you are really keen on keeping them seperate, due to the movement in Calendars the dates are now 3/4 days apart in the northern hemisphere, so you can do both!

[paul_oshea]

The church should be delighted that people still want to get married in them and maintain some connection, given the way attendances are dropping. And most priests seem to agree, only the fundamentalists seem to have a problem with it. Much better to maintain the connection voluntary through marriages and christenings that the effective blackmailing through the schooling system which is happening all over Ireland.

Attendances have stayed pretty steady to be honest. You have completely missed my point though and I don't know what priests "you know".


I agree we should go back to original meaning of Christmas time - the pagan winter solstice festivals, and their traditions of logs, trees, holly, misletoe. Happy midwinter one and all.


Christmas and the winter solstice are 2 completely different things, as I am sure you know after your quick google ;)


Actually, reading the link that Paul provided for the basis for his rant, the ad wasn't even banned - RTE said veritas should run it past the BCI to see whether it complied with the legislation and veritas didn't bother their hole and changed it instead. PC Gone Mad indeed

Thats strange, I just reclicked on the link and that last paragraph wasn't there.

MagicMe, I would respect you far more than most for that, plus barbados would be way better to get married in!!! :)

[Magicme]

Thanks Paul. Next time I want to get married at Mountain Lake Resort in Virginia, USA. Yup, home of Dirty Dancing! Poor sap I convince to join me on that jaunt!

[MyTown]

Lectures on hypocrisy from a Roscommon man who purports christian beliefs but who has a track record of avowed hatred for Galwegians on this forum?:eek:

Unless of course the three wise men were originally from Roscommon, which would really push the per capita IQ for that region over all known records.:p

Relax Paul. A very Happy Christmas to you and yours whether they're in Knockcroghery or Knightsbridge, Keadue or Kings Cross, Elphin or Elephant & Castle.

(It's a little known fact that the three wise men were originally from Galway, and that when Herod sent the troops out to look for them they settled around the Kepak facility in Athleague:D)

[paul_oshea]

Lectures on hypocrisy from a Roscommon man who purports christian beliefs but who has a track record of avowed hatred for Galwegians on this forum?

Unless of course the three wise men were originally from Roscommon, which would really push the per capita IQ for that region over all known records.

Relax Paul. A very Happy Christmas to you and yours whether they're in Knockcroghery or Knightsbridge, Keadue or Kings Cross, Elphin or Elephant & Castle.

(It's a little known fact that the three wise men were originally from Galway, and that when Herod sent the troops out to look for them they settled around the Kepak facility in Athleague)

Theres nothing wrong with those people who get upset with the names of Teddy Bears. :D


Thanks MyTown, but thats the thing what exactly are you wishing me, are you wishing me what you believe as christmas or what I believe as christmas?! :) Whatever it is though, I do appreciate ;)

[Macy]

Christmas and the winter solstice are 2 completely different things, as I am sure you know after your quick google
Yeah, it's been obvious for a long time that Jesus was actually born in September. Christians hijacked all the pagan festivals...

[endabob1]

I think Hijacked is the wrong word, Christitanity flourished under the Romans and rather than change the festival dates they simply changed the reason for celebrations. This is almost 2000 years ago we're talking about, things were slightly different!!

Paul, I'm with Magime on the wedding score, I got married in a civil service on a wine estate in South Africa, absolutely stunning. I don't go to mass, I don't believe in God so it would have hugely hypocritical of me to get married in a church, My poor old Mam had a bit of trouble with it but she just said "it's your life and your day so you do what's right for you".

[Magicme]

I do believe in God and angels etc, just not organised religions. I follow my own path.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'm one of the "gloves are off" atheists on this site. I think much of the story of Christ and Christianity is of dubious provenance and probably made up as they were going along by a number of characters starting with his Ma.

...BUT - I'll set up a Christmas tree on Saturday (once the house is cleaned down), I'll put a (highly improbable) wooden stable that my Dad made decades ago at the base of it and I'll put into it figurines of the Mam, the ..erm ... step-Dad, the donkey and bull, and the three wise men (seemingly Mary and Joe hung around in the stable for the three to four years it'd have taken the three wise men to get to them.) We'll not put the wee baba into his manger until Christmas Eve though and I'll let my (unbaptised) 2 year old do that job. Charming and endearing tradition. that's all.

[MyTown]

Lionel: Happy Dawkins to You just doesn't have that festive ring to it I'm afraid. If you're dad was handy with the hammer & chisel, you have soooooo much in common with the founder of my religion. Are you sure you're not just in denial?:D

Paul: I'm wishing you you're kind of Christmas. I'm a practicing catholic, as in practicing - not perfect.

[Macy]

I think Hijacked is the wrong word, Christitanity flourished under the Romans and rather than change the festival dates they simply changed the reason for celebrations. This is almost 2000 years ago we're talking about, things were slightly different!!
What have the romans ever done for us? Just because the romans were doing it, doesn't mean the Celts automatically followed through. Sure we still (just about) have Wren Day which was all part of the midwinter festival.

[Macy]

They castigate the church, when suits, but on the other hand, xmas etc
Meant to say earlier, referring to it as xmas in a pro church rant???

[paul_oshea]

What have the romans ever done for us? Just because the romans were doing it, doesn't mean the Celts automatically followed through. Sure we still (just about) have Wren Day which was all part of the midwinter festival.

Well, on the topic of not knowing what is and isn't there is no proof that we are celts or to be more specific that "celts" originated where everyone believed, so unless you can claim bloodline to tuatha dé danann or fir blog or one of the other 3 settlers to ireland yer rambling.


Meant to say earlier, referring to it as xmas in a pro church rant???

mad busy at work today!! shorter, simple as :)

[Schumi]

regardless of Christmas's origins as a pagan festival it became a Christian festival under Roman Emperor Constantine and so for almost 1700 years it has been a Christian festival.And now it's become a consumerist buying festival for the last few decades. Follow whichever tradition you want.

[paul_oshea]

Follow whichever tradition you want.


How could that be called a tradition?

[stann]

I'm declaring meself with the Atheist Front too, and see no problem with following a few quaint traditions at Christmas that, for me, are just that - quaint traditions. No problem in loving Christmas because it's the family / friends / feel-good vibe that I love, and most of the Christmas traditions that we observe, from mince pies to Coca-Cola coloured Santas, are secular in origin anyway.

As the g/f is moderately religious I forsee partaking in several Christian ceremonies in the future which I have no problem with as it'll be for her. I'll hardly have her convinced in that short a space of time. :D

To be honest, there's many more hypocrisies involving the church you could be getting worked up about. I had typed a few out, but that argument is for another time.

Oh, and we're not all Celt by the way, surprisingly few of us are. There's a similar level of Viking blood here, for example, and rather a lot more Anglo-Saxon.

[paul_oshea]

Oh, and we're not all Celt by the way, surprisingly few of us are. There's a similar level of Viking blood here, for example, and rather a lot more Anglo-Saxon.

Didnt go that far forward, but ya, we're definitely not as inbred as we once thought. That comment was silly to start with anyway.

[Macy]

The vikings had Yule. If it's going to be about which pagan festival were replaced.

[superfrank]

I honestly don't see Christmas as a religious holiday anymore. I think of it as more of a public holiday, like Halloween or St. Patrick's Day (surley that's another load of Christian hypocrisy but that's for another time).

I enjoy Christmas cause I get presents and I get to see my family for a few days which I doesn't happen that often as my brothers and sister have left home.

I think Christmas is more of a marketing ploy these days. The religion part is long gone.

A lot like society. I don't know anyone my age who goes to mass week-in, week-out and who is a strong Catholic. People who DO are the only people I will let give out to me about Catholicism. Lapsed Catholics who whinge annoy the hell out of me.

For the record, I was very religious up until I was 14. I finally realised and understood the extent of the whole priest abuse scandals and how blinkered some lay people were. I didn't want to become one of those people and I couldn't trust any priests enough to convince me to change my mind.

POS, I do agree with you on church weddings though.

[pete]

Non story. As mentioned already the advert was not banned by RTE.

I find Christmas offends my alcoholic atheist beliefs. I cannot purchase alcohol on December 25. :( Maybe that is why Coca Cola sponsored the festival?

[paul_oshea]

I find Christmas offends my alcoholic atheist beliefs. I cannot purchase alcohol on December 25. Maybe that is why Coca Cola sponsored the festival?

ah ye can, if ye really want ;) But, btw, I never knew you were a person who doesn't believe there is such a thing as alcoholics. You learn something knew everyday. :)


I enjoy Christmas cause I get presents and I get to see my family for a few days which I doesn't happen that often as my brothers and sister have left home.

I think Christmas is more of a marketing ploy these days. The religion part is long gone.


See thats where we are going to end up, like yankiville "happy holidays"

I have to say the more of kevin myers that I read the more I agree with. :(

[Lim till i die]

People on this forum, and in Ireland generaly now are affront to the power the church has in this day and age. ...

The church has power in this day and age :confused:


They castigate the church

*whispers* It's because of all the evil stuff.


xmas etc is still the biggest phenomenon in Eire

Not like all those xmas hating countries out foriegn.


and women ( along with their husbands, many included on this forum I'm sure )

On behalf of the women on this forum, I'm offended


still crave the "big church wedding".

Of course they do. It's a traditional and above all pretty setting.

Religion doesn't come into it my dear fellow.


This hypocrisy really winds me up

Swiftly followed by:


I go to mass nearly every week

It's just non church hypocrisy that bothers you I take it??


but it wouldn't bother me if I didnt get married in the church

See now that's just your opinion and doesn't really have any relevance to any of ours.


yet those who dont go assume its their "god" given right to have their big lovely day in the church

Look, aslong as I tip the vicar or the priest a few quid into his hat I should be allowed get married wherever the hell I want.

It's a lovely setting with lots of seating capacity....perfect.

Wouldn't be very Christian to ruin my wifes big day over a dusty old book now would it??

If the church are going to get snotty about who can and can't use their land may I suggest the government taking it back.


but yet when it suits will be the first on the bandwagon to complain about the church.

Damn those common sense bandwagons!! Damn them!!

[strangeirish]

I dont got to mass. When I got married it was a civil cermony on the beach in Barbados. I didn't want to baptise my children but pressure from family caved me in. I gave my kids the choice if they wanted to make their 1st communion & confirmation. They choose to do so mainly coz everyone in their class was doing it and didnt want to be left out.

For me Christmas stopped being religious 14 yrs ago and now it is an amazingly beautiful time when my family (including my aunt & uncle from holland, granny, other aunt, her kids and their kids) all descend on my parents home and we have the time of our lives together. It is a few days where we put our busy lives aside and really really enjoy each others company. The presents and food are secondary to the love that is in the house on that day.

Its a tradition borne out of a religious event but the religion plays no place in it anymore for me. Like Macy, I would like to see it back to the truer tradition of celebrating that you are still alive and have family in the dead of winter.
I like it! Peace.

[mypost]

The whole white wedding is really one of those madwomen ideas they insist on. I don't think many men care where it is, tbh. For a bloke, getting married is a simple operation. Propose to her, and turn up in the church on time, not causing a drama. Women spend decades planning the day, with military precision. From the dress, to the cake, to the family members, to the invites, to the location, to the reception, to the honeymoon, etc. One thing they pay least attention to is the cost. While she wants no expense spared, he's thinking, how in the name of Christ am I going to afford/pay it off??

I do agree it's hypocritical to have it in a church, when by choice, you only go there once every year/five years. I wouldn't care where mine would be, at the end of the day, big or small budget, mansion or shed, the ceremony is all the same.

[pete]

I think the Catholic church in Ireland has started to become irrelevant. Maybe new religions will replace it but while 90% might officially belong I guess even the weekly mass goers is in the minority. Other churches not large enough to make a difference.

I suppose the biggest impact the churches have is in primary schools as due to historical circumstances they run/control those schools.

[Noelys Guitar]

Whats a church?

[Lim till i die]

Whats a church?

World Famous Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Church) ;)

[Noelys Guitar]

World Famous Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Church) ;)

How does one go about joining this church? I want to get inside the confessional box.

[micls]

Superfrank sums it up well for me.

I am an atheist, but adore Christmas. For me its a holiday and has never really been a religious occasion. 2 weeks off work, presets, food, relaxing, family. What's there not to celebrate? I celebrate it as a holiday

Saying that what I do find hypocritical is those who don't see a church for the rest of the year but turn up on Christmas day, and pretend to care about the religious aspect of it. Saying that, leave them off. If it helps them enjoy the season then what harm.

Also Im another woman who would have no interest whatsoever in getting married in a church, never have but a lot of the reason being I dont like the whole big occasion thing.Some hot country on a beach please. This works as my partner is an atheist too.

If i was with someone who wanted a Church wedding I'd probably cave.

Would that make me a hypocrite? Maybe but it would mean their burning in hell for marrying a heathen so leave them enjoy the day.

[beautifulrock]

I find this discussion quite amusing, what we have here is the religous equivelant of the barstooler the "Hosanna Hosanna" crowd :). We only go to Church for the big games (weddings) not interested in the rest thank you.

[bennocelt]

got the old catholic upbringing and all that.........but hate all religions.......
Myself? I got married, no church wedding, no ring, small party and that was that........and still happily married.

Ireland is still a very catholic country..........we try to pretend we aren't and look all modern and liberal, but jeez when that bloody relic was here from France how crazy did the country go, thousands were touching the dead body, and what about the live show on Sean Brady the new cardinal

Ireland: FF, The Church, GAA..............thats the holy trinity:(

[pete]

Saying that what I do find hypocritical is those who don't see a church for the rest of the year but turn up on Christmas day, and pretend to care about the religious aspect of it.

I agree. No doubt some people go to be seen there & others enjoy the atmosphere at the event. Makes the event junkie analogy very apt.

Even in Ireland Christmas has long since been a holiday & little religious aspect left.

[Raheny Red]

What pishes me off the most is the large majority of people who get their child baptised and don't even practice the religion.

[micls]

What pishes me off the most is the large majority of people who get their child baptised and don't even practice the religion.

For a lot of people it's seen as a tradition ad an excuse for a party celebrating the birth. Now personally I wouldn't do it but I cant say much.

I'm a godmother despite being atheist. It was before I had completely given up on religion but even then it wasn't seen as a religious thing by the parents, it was them saying I trust you to look after the child with and for us.

It's hard in a country as religious as traditional as we are to be different. Even though I wouldn't christen my child my family wouldn't understand it, grandparents etc. Id say a lot of people just do it to keep relatives happy and for the day out.

[Macy]

What pishes me off the most is the large majority of people who get their child baptised and don't even practice the religion.
You have to in many areas to make sure they get into the local (state) school.

btw the type of hypcrites that get on my tits are the type that will diss none believers, but then have no problem breaking other Church rules. They'll say so and so shouldn't get married in a church, but have no problem using contraception (for example) when it's specifically outlawed by the church. These types of the real hypocrites - get on their high horse about others when they're a la carte themselves...

[endabob1]

I find this discussion quite amusing, what we have here is the religous equivelant of the barstooler the "Hosanna Hosanna" crowd :). We only go to Church for the big games (weddings) not interested in the rest thank you.

Quality :D

[Magicme]

I agree with Micls on the baptising thing. I wanted to have a family party and "naming ceremony" and wanted to plant a tree in honour of my boys, but as Macy said, I worried about the implications of getting them into the schools I wanted them to go to and my parents were horrified at the thoughts of their grandchildren not being christened so I caved.

I wouldn't cave on the wedding thing. If he wants to get married in a church he is marrying the wrong chick.

[anto1208]

I have no desire or need to get married in a church and i wouldnt be dictated to by my family , but if the missus really was religious and wanted to get married in a church then id have no problem doing that either.

Id have no problem using a church that the community has paid for. My family would have given bag loads of cash to the church over the last 60 odd years. Its a large community paid for building its there for the community .

[endabob1]

It astounds me that the church still wields so much power in education in Ireland. I remember My brother & his now wife, then girlfriend being told that their son might not be able to make his communion because they were "living in sin", so they had to sneak off for a quicky wedding. That was 15+ years and I had hoped things had improved but clearly not.

[reder]

The power of the church has definitely been reduced over the past 10-15 years in Ireland. However, it is still a multi-million pound organisation and will always have a grip on this country. Anyone who desires can have a church wedding. Simply give the priest a couple of hundred quid and his principles will fly out the window pretty quickly. I have umpteen people "living in sin" with kids doing this.

As a matter of interest. I have seen pictures of the visit of the last pope to Ireland in the late 70's. If the pope visited Ireland today, what sort of attendances would result?

[pete]

What pishes me off the most is the large majority of people who get their child baptised and don't even practice the religion.

I would not hold these against people. As already mentioned it may be required to get into school & by not baptising a child you are basically marking out as "different".

[Lionel Ritchie]

As a matter of interest. I have seen pictures of the visit of the last pope to Ireland in the late 70's. If the pope visited Ireland today, what sort of attendances would result?

With the amount of event junkies in this country? I've no doubt he'd sell out anywhere he went. Merchandise would a lot more prominent this time too and it'd be sponsored by a mobile fcuking phone company.

Festival packs would be funny though ...and they could have those lads who normally sell exhorbitantly priced half full plastic glasses of beer selling sweet tea and corned-beef sandwiches

[osarusan]

it'd be sponsored by a mobile fcuking phone company.

Maybe we could get a cigarette company to sponsor it. New Testament cigarettes anybody?

F9Rumfb5kyU

[hoops1]

I would not hold these against people. As already mentioned it may be required to get into school & by not baptising a child you are basically marking out as "different".

Anybody that only baptises their kids because they are afraid of what schools they can and cannot get them into really need to take a look at themselves. That age is probably the most important as they are so easily influenced and form most of lifes opinions in there. Non believers that send kids to a school to learn things they the parents dont believe are baffling to me. Really strange logic in there somewhere

[Macy]

It's the reality of life. I'll educate my child at home about my opinions on what they are learning in school. I can't replace the local friends they'd lose if we instead chose to send them to the nearest Educate Together school 20 miles away as opposed to the school in the village. That's ignoring the simple realities of getting them to and from school.