View Full Version : A 'Home' Squad
eirebhoy
06/12/2007, 10:27 PM
In fairness I don't think Cymro was actually going for the best 11 players. Dunne is clearly the better of the 2 Man City centre halves atm although Richards is potentially world class. And Healy isn't as good as Keane, Bellamy, Rooney and a few more.
tricky_colour
07/12/2007, 12:36 AM
One argument against us being considered a home nation is this. Britain has snakes and we don't ... reason? Because Britain came out of the sea while it was still physically connected to continental Europe. Our little island remained immersed until several thousand years later, hence no snakes.
No it was St Patrick that go rid of the snakes.
...In this case it refers to Ireland, N Ireland, Wales, Sotland and England.
It's not a political term, just a convienient term to refer to local nations who
failed to qualify.Why not add Belgium?
...Our little island remained immersed until several thousand years later, hence no snakes.Charlie Haughey?
tricky_colour
07/12/2007, 3:14 PM
Why not add Belgium?
We have no land border with Belgium.
We have no land border with Belgium.Don't have a land border with Scotland, Wales or England either. Why not the Faroes or Iceland?
tricky_colour
07/12/2007, 5:31 PM
Don't have a land border with Scotland, Wales or England either. Why not the Faroes or Iceland?
Scotland, Wales and England are part of the UK which has a land border with Ireland.
I guess you could call the team the homeland squad or something like that.
Faroes and Iceland don't have a land border with either the UK or Ireland
Bondvillain
07/12/2007, 7:15 PM
Faroes and Iceland don't have a land border with either the UK or Ireland
If that's an official FAI statement, I want independent confirmation.
Paddy Garcia
07/12/2007, 9:04 PM
One argument against us being considered a home nation is this. Britain has snakes and we don't ... reason? Because Britain came out of the sea while it was still physically connected to continental Europe. Our little island remained immersed until several thousand years later, hence no snakes.
That's an urban myth, we all know who got rid of the snakes FFS.
Paddy Garcia
07/12/2007, 9:06 PM
Seriously though, We'd easily get 3 or 4 players in the team. given, finnan, Keane and Mcgeady
1/2 of this forum don't want McGeady anywhere near the Irish team!
danonion
07/12/2007, 9:22 PM
Scotland, Wales and England are part of the UK which has a land border with Ireland.
I guess you could call the team the homeland squad or something like that.
Faroes and Iceland don't have a land border with either the UK or Ireland
This is very much clutching at straws. Home nation has a specific meaning. Ireland does not fit the criteria of this meaning. We are not a home nation, one cannot consider us a home nation.
Arguing that Ireland is a home nation is congruent to arguing we are part of the UK.
Feech
07/12/2007, 10:34 PM
This thread says more about the state of Irish schools than anything else!
Qwerty
07/12/2007, 10:36 PM
In fairness I don't think Cymro was actually going for the best 11 players. Dunne is clearly the better of the 2 Man City centre halves atm although Richards is potentially world class. And Healy isn't as good as Keane, Bellamy, Rooney and a few more.
At club level yes but at international level he is in a purple patch that the others can only dream about.
Qwerty
07/12/2007, 10:39 PM
This is very much clutching at straws. Home nation has a specific meaning. Ireland does not fit the criteria of this meaning. We are not a home nation, one cannot consider us a home nation.
Arguing that Ireland is a home nation is congruent to arguing we are part of the UK.
Right we were a home nation prior to 1922. We are not now nor ever will be again a home nation. I have seen the future so I know.
And the term home nation doesn't relate to the UK as much as it distinguishes the home nations with the overseas empire, what's left of it.
tricky_colour
07/12/2007, 11:17 PM
This is very much clutching at straws. Home nation has a specific meaning. Ireland does not fit the criteria of this meaning. We are not a home nation, one cannot consider us a home nation.
Arguing that Ireland is a home nation is congruent to arguing we are part of the UK.
That's nonsense, "home nation" is just two words strung togeather, nothing more.
Infact to suggest it is anything to do with the UK is frankly ridiculous otherwise it would obviously be called the UK Championships.
Why Ireland was excluded form the Home Championships is beyond me.
It is basically a historical term to cover the two islands, nothing to do with the British empire.
I mean if some people don't like the term then perhaps I should change the title to:-
"A "people who can vote on I'm a Celebrity and the X-Factor squad'" :rolleyes:
This, I believe, would comfortable exclude Belgium, the Faroes and Iceland.
tricky_colour
07/12/2007, 11:26 PM
I guess you could have Simon Cowell as the manager and Ant and Dec as cone layers :rolleyes:
danonion
08/12/2007, 3:14 AM
That's nonsense, "home nation" is just two words strung togeather, nothing more.
Infact to suggest it is anything to do with the UK is frankly ridiculous otherwise it would obviously be called the UK Championships.
Why Ireland was excluded form the Home Championships is beyond me.
It is basically a historical term to cover the two islands, nothing to do with the British empire.
I mean if some people don't like the term then perhaps I should change the title to:-
"A "people who can vote on I'm a Celebrity and the X-Factor squad'" :rolleyes:
This, I believe, would comfortable exclude Belgium, the Faroes and Iceland.
Repeating your initial argument doesn't make it any less wrong. Home Nations specifically refers to the British nations of the North Atlantic Archipelago . It was coined originally to distinguish between British controlled entities around the world from the ones on these isles. Later used to distinguish between the British nations on these isles and those that belong to the British Commonwealth of Nations.
We aren't British and we don't belong to the Commonwealth.
My response was respectful and well thought out, I don't appreciate it being dismissed as nonsense, when you are not countering my facts in any capacity.
Bondvillain
08/12/2007, 3:42 AM
Infact to suggest it is anything to do with the UK is frankly ridiculous otherwise it would obviously be called the UK Championships (.......) Why Ireland was excluded form the Home Championships is beyond me.
Just a shot in the dark here, but would it possibly be because we aren't a "home nation"?
kingdom hoop
08/12/2007, 1:08 PM
we aren't a "home nation"?
So all those damn immigrants just came here for the jobs and not the warm, homely atmosphere? :mad: :p
Bondvillain
08/12/2007, 1:31 PM
So all those damn immigrants just came here for the jobs and not the warm, homely atmosphere? :mad: :p
That, and Mrs McLafferty's world famous boxty.
kingdom hoop
08/12/2007, 1:54 PM
That, and Mrs McLafferty's world famous boxty.
Very true! I was at an Enterprise Ireland trade fair in Mexico a few months ago where they served free samples of said boxty. You shoulda seen the faces of the attendees light up! I could sense the cogs whirring upstairs as they processed the joy of living in a land host to such delightful fare.
backstothewall
08/12/2007, 2:57 PM
Repeating your initial argument doesn't make it any less wrong. Home Nations specifically refers to the British nations of the North Atlantic Archipelago . It was coined originally to distinguish between British controlled entities around the world from the ones on these isles. Later used to distinguish between the British nations on these isles and those that belong to the British Commonwealth of Nations.
We aren't British and we don't belong to the Commonwealth.
My response was respectful and well thought out, I don't appreciate it being dismissed as nonsense, when you are not countering my facts in any capacity.
There were no facts to counter. You told us the term home nation has a very specific meaning, then failed to tell us what that meaning is or provide any source. It was nothing more than an opinion.
btw, is Iceland part of the North Atlantic Archipelago? What about the Faroes?? Rockall??
As was rightly pointed out what makes us a home nation is that we all watch x factor and I'm a celeb, eat the same bad food, speak the same language, vote for each other in Eurovision, and go on holiday to Majorca to watch repeats of Only Fools and Horses and Father Ted while getting terribly burnt due to our pasty white skin.
To paraphrase an Irishman who made the most of this, we are 4 nations divided by a common culture and history.
This thread says more about the state of Irish schools than anything else!I agree.
...Why Ireland was excluded form the Home Championships is beyond me.
It was called the British championship the last time I looked. And the reason we were excluded was that we are not British.
"A "people who can vote on I'm a Celebrity and the X-Factor squad'" :rolleyes:
This, I believe, would comfortable exclude Belgium, the Faroes and Iceland.Does it? Probably pick up these cr*p programmes on Terrestrial in Belgium if your ariel's pointing the right way.
...btw, is Iceland part of the North Atlantic Archipelago? What about the Faroes?? Rockall??
Don't see why not.
As was rightly pointed out what makes us a home nation is that we all watch x factor and I'm a celeb, eat the same bad food, speak the same language, vote for each other in Eurovision, and go on holiday to Majorca to watch repeats of Only Fools and Horses and Father Ted while getting terribly burnt due to our pasty white skin.
To paraphrase an Irishman who made the most of this, we are 4 nations divided by a common culture and history.Apart from speak the same language I don't do any of the above, so I'm afraid I don't belong to your Ireland, a member of the home nations. If Ireland can't be a*sed to stay a member of the Commonwealth, there is little to justify anything more in common than being neighbours. They eat sh*te food in Belgium too (chips and Mayonaise) and get sunburnt in Majorca and probably have dubbed British TV comedies too. And I've never had much problem speaking English there either.
The 'Home Nations' came to the fore in 1994, when the British media faced with a World Cup without their sides, chose us. I would have suggested Germany, seeing you like them as your heads of state instead of British royals. In a nutshell, it's b*ll*cks (if you pardon the pun).
tricky_colour
09/12/2007, 1:44 AM
It was called the British championship the last time I looked. And the reason we were excluded was that we are not British.
That was just a convienient name for it, we will call it the Two Island Championship.
Does it? Probably pick up these cr*p programmes on Terrestrial in Belgium if your ariel's pointing the right way.
Can't vote on them though.
Apart from speak the same language I don't do any of the above, so I'm afraid I don't belong to your Ireland, a member of the home nations. If Ireland can't be a*sed to stay a member of the Commonwealth, there is little to justify anything more in common than being neighbours. They eat sh*te food in Belgium too (chips and Mayonaise) and get sunburnt in Majorca and probably have dubbed British TV comedies too. And I've never had much problem speaking English there either.
The 'Home Nations' came to the fore in 1994, when the British media faced with a World Cup without their sides, chose us. I would have suggested Germany, seeing you like them as your heads of state instead of British royals. In a nutshell, it's b*ll*cks (if you pardon the pun).
You are making too much of a word "home", I am sure Baltic or Scandanavian countries have no problems with such terms.
Does New Zeland have a problem with the term Australasia? Does it mean it is ruled by Australia? Of course not, it's just convienient a word.
Bondvillain
09/12/2007, 3:27 AM
That was just a convienient name for it, we will call it the Two Island Championship..
"We" ? Can I play? Can my mate from the Isle of Man play? What about the likes of Le Saux? If he were to come out of retirement would he destined to sit on the sidelines, forever cursing his island of birth?
Does New Zeland have a problem with the term Australasia? Does it mean it is ruled by Australia? Of course not, it's just convienient a word..
So "convenient a word" in fact, that they ignore it completely and use the term "Oceania" regarding football tournaments.
My primary school teacher had a word for people who said too much stuff while their brain was out playing.
the word was "Shhhh".
danonion
09/12/2007, 5:26 AM
Walsall
A) I provided a succinct and accepted definition of home nation in an earlier post. They have a thing to help with reading comprehension out here in the States called hooked on phonics, I suggest you invest.
B) Taking the **** out of the term North Atlantic Archipelago does not help your case in any capacity. It too, is the accepted diction of historians, when there is need to describe your "British Isles" without injecting any form of political or social bias.
That was just a convienient name for it, we will call it the Two Island Championship.
Without everyone on the two islands eligible
Can't vote on them though.
That says more about where the programme is from rather than who is watching. (see above comments on 1994 World Cup)
You are making too much of a word "home", I am sure Baltic or Scandanavian countries have no problems with such terms.
Does New Zeland have a problem with the term Australasia? Does it mean it is ruled by Australia? Of course not, it's just convienient a word.Scandanavia (sic.) is not a political country to which one country has departed and yet it can't let go of it (even keeping hold of six of its provinces). Same with Australia (although as Bondvillian has pointed out, Oceania is the acceptable term).
John83
10/12/2007, 1:19 PM
So "convenient a word" in fact, that they ignore it completely and use the term "Oceania" regarding football tournaments.
My primary school teacher had a word for people who said too much stuff while their brain was out playing.
the word was "Shhhh".
Oceania is a larger region which encompasses Australasia. I have a word for people who speak with authority when they don't actually know what they're talking about, but would rather not take this thread up a notch to a slagging match.
Bondvillain
10/12/2007, 1:46 PM
Oceania is a larger region which encompasses Australasia. I have a word for people who speak with authority when they don't actually know what they're talking about, but would rather not take this thread up a notch to a slagging match.
The only "authority" I was speaking with was that of the Oceania Football Confederation. They seem pretty sure (As was my initial assertion) that they play football under the correct name (untainted by Australia having a big old warranted flid & upping sticks to Asia...)
I searched in vain for an Australasian football confederation to use as a counter authority so I could bow to your greater knowledge on this matter, but alas , it was not to be located. Therefore, I can only maintain that my original position : New Zealand etc. "use the term "Oceania" regarding football tournaments." is pretty much allowable.
Good call on not taking this thread up a notch to a slagging match though.:D
John83
10/12/2007, 2:52 PM
The only "authority" I was speaking with was that of the Oceania Football Confederation. They seem pretty sure (As was my initial assertion) that they play football under the correct name (untainted by Australia having a big old warranted flid & upping sticks to Asia...)
I searched in vain for an Australasian football confederation to use as a counter authority so I could bow to your greater knowledge on this matter, but alas , it was not to be located. Therefore, I can only maintain that my original position : New Zealand etc. "use the term "Oceania" regarding football tournaments." is pretty much allowable.
Good call on not taking this thread up a notch to a slagging match though.:D
OFC don't use the term "Australiasian" for the same reason UEFA don't use the term "Iberian". You seem to have trouble understanding me.
Bondvillain
10/12/2007, 6:32 PM
OFC don't use the term "Australiasian" for the same reason UEFA don't use the term "Iberian". You seem to have trouble understanding me.
I do indeed. However, it mightn't be all your fault, I've been tired recently.
Still, Im willing to give it another go. Here's how I read it :
TC alleges that one reason that Ireland should have no problems with being part of a "home nations" tournament is that New Zealand have no obvious objections to being referred to as part of AustralasiaBV (That's me) noting that TC was perhaps ignoring the mitigating factors of Australia & New Zealand's Commonwealth membership & sharing a common head of state in the Current British Monarch, etc. which really renders them closer (in circumstance of Nationality) to Scotland and Wales rather than England & Ireland, counters by saying (with perhaps an over-reliance on the smartarse plugin involved here) the point that For Footballing purposes, New Zealand are considered part of The Oceanic conference & nowhere is the geographic term Australasia mentioned in relation to football.
So for this discussion at least, Geopolitical accuracy notwithstanding, I was of the opinion that the point was irrelevant, as an Australasian tournament featuring these nations simply doesn't exist. Comparing Ireland's attitude to that of New Zealand's in this case is similar to comparing Bananas and motorbikes.J83 (That's you) Avoids the Footballing point & gives BV a mighty fine schoolin' in Pacific geography 101 in a spirited & stern attempt to put the apparently Australasia-denying BV and his smart mouth back in his damn box.
How'm I doing so far?
John83
10/12/2007, 6:54 PM
How'm I doing so far?
Not so bad - rather better than before. I am ignoring the larger debate here, and perhaps we're discussing slightly different questions (I don't really care for the original debate - I think 'home nation' is a sloppy term for Ireland, incorrect since 1921, but that people are over-sensitive to that sort of thing). However, I'll give it one last go.
You countered the assertion that New Zealand has no problems with the term Australasian by pointing out an irrelevancy.
You've met the point better in your last post, but previously your answer was,
So "convenient a word" in fact, that they ignore it completely and use the term "Oceania" regarding football tournaments.
My primary school teacher had a word for people who said too much stuff while their brain was out playing.
the word was "Shhhh".
There's no mention of cultural factors or monarchy there, just knocking a straw man down before throwing a petty insult at tricky_colour.
Bondvillain
10/12/2007, 8:57 PM
just knocking a straw man down before throwing a petty insult at tricky_colour.
So...
J83 (That's you) gives BV a mighty fine schoolin' in Pacific geography 101 in a spirited & stern attempt to put the apparently Australasia-denying BV and his smart mouth back in his damn box.
...was pretty much on the money then? It wasn't actually about the post subject, but rather about umbrage taken over an alleged slight on another poster? Took you long enough to get round to actually saying it...
Fair Enough, perhaps your intervention was required. If Tricky_colour is in the audience, I of course sincerely apologise if they felt any discomfort or anguish due to the aforementioned petty insults, and I will endeavour to avoid anything that smells remotely of straw men in future, lest I post and cause someone to be upset. And John83, if you want to tell someone to cop on and stop being a smartarse in future, don't use an atlas. Just use the words "cop on and stop being a smartarse". It's quicker and a bit less "round the houses".
backstothewall
11/12/2007, 10:44 PM
Walsall
A) I provided a succinct and accepted definition of home nation in an earlier post. They have a thing to help with reading comprehension out here in the States called hooked on phonics, I suggest you invest.
B) Taking the **** out of the term North Atlantic Archipelago does not help your case in any capacity. It too, is the accepted diction of historians, when there is need to describe your "British Isles" without injecting any form of political or social bias.
"the accepted diction of historians"
I feel the accepted diction of Geographers might be a tad more relevent when discussing a geographic term, however...
...I tested your theory out with a simple test.
The phrase History of the North Atlantic Archipelago returns 133,000 results on google. History of the 'North Atlantic Archipelago' returns 854
"History of the British Isles" returns 6,570,000 results. History of the 'British Isles' gets 6,530,000. It not scientific, but its a good indication of the extent of the phrases use
Getting back to the point, what you have done with the term "British Isles" is exactly what has been done with the term "home Nation". Inject politics where none exists naturally, or is needed. My politics are staunchly nationalist for what its worth, but recognising links and similarities in culture between everyone in IONA/British Isles has no impact whatsoever on the right of Ireland to independent self determination.
In summary, in my definition, we are a home nation because when England got knocked out it put a smile on most Irishmens face and a spring in the step on the way to work, in a way it simply didn't do for Swedes or Germans, and because when the BBC did their Sports Personality of the year show they included us in the football segment.
When the term came about we were a home nation, as we were all part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. That much is true. But when part of the nation ceased to be, i don't see that it automatically follows that we ceased to be a home nation. One is not interdependant with the other in my opinion, as one is about politics, and the other culture.
citizenerased
11/12/2007, 10:55 PM
how has this thread not been binned yet?!
irishfan86
11/12/2007, 10:57 PM
how has this thread not been binned yet?!
Indeed, this isn't foot.naa!
backstothewall
11/12/2007, 11:05 PM
Even i'm fed up with it:confused:
tricky_colour
11/12/2007, 11:20 PM
how has this thread not been binned yet?!
You don't bin good food, it has drifted a little off topic and we have not even sorted out the squad yet, never mind where the games will be played.
irishfan86
12/12/2007, 12:06 AM
I propose a re-mix medley of Ireland's Call and GSTQ (Sex Pistols version) for the anthem.
backstothewall
12/12/2007, 5:36 PM
It couldn't be worse than Ireland Call on its own
dcfcsteve
12/12/2007, 8:41 PM
Look up the origins of the term 'British'. Specifically, look for the term 'Pretanic'. 'Celtic' derives from a Greek term applied to the Gauls by the Romans. We're far more British than Celtic.
I know the origins of the word 'Britain' thanks - I'm big into my etymology.
I also know the origin of the word 'gay'.
Both have changed their meaning over time, so your point is irrelevant.
It is very arguable that the Celts were more a linguistic 'nation' than a genetic one. The Celts of Ireland were different linguistically from the Priteanic 'P' Celts of Britain (we were/are 'Q' or Goidelic Celts). So on that basis the Irish we're very much Celtic, and not very British - even by its original origins.
dcfcsteve
12/12/2007, 8:50 PM
Trying reading a bit. I'm sure theres a decent library in Derry.
You do make me laugh,. Glad you've finally found Google.
As for the libraries in Derry - there's a couple of decent ones, but a glance to the top right-hand corner of every post I make wll give you a clue as to why I don't use them.
You are great humour value though - I wll say that. Please promise me you'll be on here a lot over Christmas, as the TV is usually rubbish and you're much better entertainment..... :)
CollegeTillIDie
13/12/2007, 6:43 AM
There were no facts to counter. You told us the term home nation has a very specific meaning, then failed to tell us what that meaning is or provide any source. It was nothing more than an opinion.
btw, is Iceland part of the North Atlantic Archipelago? What about the Faroes?? Rockall??
As was rightly pointed out what makes us a home nation is that we all watch x factor and I'm a celeb, eat the same bad food, speak the same language, vote for each other in Eurovision, and go on holiday to Majorca to watch repeats of Only Fools and Horses and Father Ted while getting terribly burnt due to our pasty white skin.
To paraphrase an Irishman who made the most of this, we are 4 nations divided by a common culture and history.
We have our own language, so do the Welsh and the Scottish, the English can only speak one, and they don't speak their own one all that well duh! Hardly a common culture and English people, on the whole take a sun tan better than we do on the whole which proves we are different !
Now as regards a national anthem for Northern Ireland... GSTQ as Gaeilge and a verse in Ulster Scots :D
tricky_colour
13/12/2007, 4:42 PM
I guess we could call it a Union Jack squad.
Oof course that would exclude Wales because they are not represented on the Union Jack.
It's no great loss though Ryan Giggs would have struggled to get a place in the first team anyway.
SuperDave
13/12/2007, 6:19 PM
I guess we could call it a Union Jack squad.
Oof course that would exclude Wales because they are not represented on the Union Jack.
It's no great loss though Ryan Giggs would have struggled to get a place in the first team anyway.
well, Gareth Bale can play left wing as well as full back (where England are fairly well covered)
I guess we could call it a Union Jack squad.
Oof course that would exclude Wales because they are not represented on the Union Jack.
It's no great loss though Ryan Giggs would have struggled to get a place in the first team anyway.
Who would you have at left wing in place of Giggs, just out of interest?
backstothewall
13/12/2007, 6:40 PM
We have our own language, so do the Welsh and the Scottish, the English can only speak one, and they don't speak their own one all that well duh! Hardly a common culture and English people, on the whole take a sun tan better than we do on the whole which proves we are different !
I didn't want to come back to this, but hey.
All you have shown is that we used to speak different languages, but don't any more.
Compared to the legacy of 500 years of Irishmen fighting in the British army; great Irishmen like Wilde, Wellington, Burke, Shaw etc making their fame in London, great Scots, English and Welsh men like James Connolly, Erskine Childers doing so here; Millions of Irish migrants altering Britain forever; the Williamite War and the sacrifice in Flanders, us having different minority languages seems insignificant
tricky_colour
13/12/2007, 7:28 PM
Who would you have at left wing in place of Giggs, just out of interest?
Duff, Hunt, Kilbane, A Ried etc......
Duff, Hunt, Kilbane, A Ried etc......
Please dear God tell me you are not being serious.
Duff=injured
Hunt=doesn't even start regularly for the ROI
Andy Reid=plays in the Championship
Kilbane=the only realistic contender, but still nowhere near Giggs's level, both in past achievements and current form
If you seriously believe that those players would get ahead of Giggs, you are an idiot. If not you are a troll. Either way comments like that don't help your image much.
tricky_colour
14/12/2007, 12:36 AM
Please dear God tell me you are not being serious.
Duff=injured
Hunt=doesn't even start regularly for the ROI
Andy Reid=plays in the Championship
Kilbane=the only realistic contender, but still nowhere near Giggs's level, both in past achievements and current form
If you seriously believe that those players would get ahead of Giggs, you are an idiot. If not you are a troll. Either way comments like that don't help your image much.
Giggs is 34, he is on the wane, he has retired from international football.
My image remains intact ;)
Giggs is performing as well as he ever has. If he were on the wane, Ferguson would have got rid of him by now. The fact that he hasn't and still starts him in his first choice XI (he does rotate his squad, obviously) should prove that.
The fact that Giggs has retired from Welsh internationals should not bar him from being considered for a hypothetical HN squad.
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