New Champions League format proposal

[eekers]

http://football.uk.reuters.com/european/news/L2660231.php



BRUSSELS, Nov 26 (Reuters) - The fourth-placed teams in England, Spain and Italy will face a tougher route into the lucrative group stage of the Champions League as part of a reform of the competition to be approved by UEFA on Friday.
Under the proposals, third-placed teams in Europe's three top leagues -- which previously entered in the final qualifying round -- will now get automatic entry into the money-spinning group stage, a senior UEFA official told Reuters on Monday.
But in return the fourth-placed sides, which until now were also given qualifying berths and seeded against clubs from lesser nations, will be pitted against each other along with five clubs of a similar size in a separate qualifying phase.
"The clubs will come from the eight leagues ranked highest according to our (coefficient) rankings and will play for four group phase places," the official said.
Based on current UEFA rankings, France, Germany, Portugal, Romania and Netherlands make up the top eight countries along with England, Spain and Italy.
"The lesser-known and medium-sized clubs will fight it out in a separate phase based on the traditional three qualifying rounds with six group spots on offer for them," the official addedfrom what i can gather from that is that the irish team will be battling it out for one of six champions league slots with team 39 other national champions ranked from 14th country and down [edit - no i've idea which teams/countries theyre gonna face]

[Aaron]

http://football.uk.reuters.com/european/news/L2660231.php



from what i can gather from that is that the irish team will be battling it out for one of six champions league slots with team 39 other national champions ranked from 14th country and down

Interesting. May give an Irish team a better chance of getting into the Group Stages. Will help IMO

[eekers]

i'm not sure it increases the automatically qualifying teamform 16 to 22 and reserves another 8 spots for big teams from the top 8 countries. leaving 6 spots for the rest of europe!

[TheBoss]

I think it is good to let the lesser leagues got some spotlight in Europe, can only do those leagues the power of good.

[viagogo]

Cant see how regular beatings in the Champions League group stage is going to help teams from lesser leagues progress. The Champions League should be graded accordingly to the strength of the country and these lesser leagues should progress from there. If Drogheda play in the Champions League next season, can you honestly see them competing against any team.

[Aaron]

Cant see how regular beatings in the Champions League group stage is going to help teams from lesser leagues progress. The Champions League should be graded accordingly to the strength of the country and these lesser leagues should progress from there. If Drogheda play in the Champions League next season, can you honestly see them competing against any team.

No you cant but you cant run before you can walk. Its one step at a time. If Irish teams continually get into the gropus then experience and profile for the league will come with it, look at Rosenborg, Norwegian league was pretty much the same as what we're in now about 7 years ago but through continuous qualification, they are getting better

[viagogo]

Yeah, but they went through the present system which meant 3 matches to get to the group stage. We would go from 1st/2nd stage knockout straight to the group stage. An gigantic gap.

Also, to raise the profile of the league is to raise the standard of all teams in the league and getting better facilities. Which would mean more work at domestic level and this would eventually transfer to European level.

Another point is if we had a team in next seasons Champions League, where would the games be played? The RDS!

[micls]

Yeah, but they went through the present system which meant 3 matches to get to the group stage. We would go from 1st/2nd stage knockout straight to the group stage. An gigantic gap.

Also, to raise the profile of the league is to raise the standard of all teams in the league and getting better facilities. Which would mean more work at domestic level and this would eventually transfer to European level.

Another point is if we had a team in next seasons Champions League, where would the games be played? The RDS!

We will still have to play 3 rounds to get there. JUst hopefully against slightly weaker teams.

Yes the team would be hammered the first year, but the 10million they got for reaching the group stage would help them better prepare for the next season and so on.

[TonyD]

, look at Rosenborg, Norwegian league was pretty much the same as what we're in now about 7 years ago but through continuous qualification, they are getting better

Not disputing your basic point, but in fairness I think it's a bit longer than that since the Norwegian league was at our level. Rosenberg have been making the group stages for about ten years if I'm not mistaken.

[eekers]

i think (90% sure) the 46 teams competing for 6 qualifying spots will be the champions of countries 14-53 and 2nd place teams from countries 9-15

[osarusan]

Yes the team would be hammered the first year, but the 10million they got for reaching the group stage would help them better prepare for the next season and so on.

Given the limited funds on which eL clubs operate,is anybody else concerned that the 10 million would enable that team to reach a level which no other eL team could match, thus leading them to be Champions league candidates almost every season?

I'm out of the loop in terms of what clubs spend in a year, but it seems to me that 10 million would give the recipient a vast advantage in the eL.

[ifk101]

Given the limited funds on which eL clubs operate,is anybody else concerned that the 10 million would enable that team to reach a level which no other eL team could match, thus leading them to be Champions league candidates almost every season?

I'm out of the loop in terms of what clubs spend in a year, but it seems to me that 10 million would give the recipient a vast advantage in the eL.

Think about it along these lines.

Football is a business.

Match day tickets is the basic product.

The first Irish club to gain entry to the Champions League will gain first mover advantages.

Champions League football is a niche product segment that may generate extra product sales. In essence, Champions League football is the premium product extension of the match day ticket. As the first Irish club to enter the premium segment of the market, it is likely that this movement will attract the interest of the Irish sporting public - the consumer. What value the consumer is willing to place on the premium product offering will ultimately determine the market value of the club's first mover advantage.

If the market value is positive, other clubs will seek to piggyback this first mover advantage. They'll want Champions League football as well. Their consumers will too. This will drive other market leading clubs to enter the premium segment of the market as not to do so will ultimately damage their basic product sales.

If the Irish consumer is willing to purchase the premium product experience, it can be hoped that this purchasing pattern will generate product and brand loyalty. It's up to the individual club to market itself correctly to retain and attract new customers.

The Norwegian League is a perfect example.

Rosenborg's entry into the Champions League gave them a first-mover and competitive advantage on the Norwegian market. Other clubs have since piggybacked the Rosenborg example which in turn as raised the quality of the basic product offering in Norway.

Rosenborg's product innovation was needed to drive growth and the quality of the product offering on the Norwegian market. There was an underlining consumer demand for premium-positioned products on the Norwegian market and Norwegian clubs have supplied this demand. They have also been successful in evolving the basic product offering of a match day ticket to a match day ticket experience - consumers are willing to purchase the basic product offering as they now perceive it as a high quality product.

As in the case of Rosenborg, one club will dominate Irish football in the short-to-medium term. However product innovation is needed to drive value in the Irish football market. Without it, product quality will not improve and ultimately, long-term, all products on the market will see a quality improvement.

Simple really :D.

[Mr A]

Think about it along these lines.

Football is a business.

Match day tickets is the basic product.

The first Irish club to gain entry to the Champions League will gain first mover advantages.

Champions League football is a niche product segment that may generate extra product sales. In essence, Champions League football is the premium product extension of the match day ticket. As the first Irish club to enter the premium segment of the market, it is likely that this movement will attract the interest of the Irish sporting public - the consumer. What value the consumer is willing to place on the premium product offering will ultimately determine the market value of the club's first mover advantage.

If the market value is positive, other clubs will seek to piggyback this first mover advantage. They'll want Champions League football as well. Their consumers will too. This will drive other market leading clubs to enter the premium segment of the market as not to do so will ultimately damage their basic product sales.

If the Irish consumer is willing to purchase the premium product experience, it can be hoped that this purchasing pattern will generate product and brand loyalty. It's up to the individual club to market itself correctly to retain and attract new customers.

The Norwegian League is a perfect example.

Rosenborg's entry into the Champions League gave them a first-mover and competitive advantage on the Norwegian market. Other clubs have since piggybacked the Rosenborg example which in turn as raised the quality of the basic product offering in Norway.

Rosenborg's product innovation was needed to drive growth and the quality of the product offering on the Norwegian market. There was an underlining consumer demand for premium-positioned products on the Norwegian market and Norwegian clubs have supplied this demand. They have also been successful in evolving the basic product offering of a match day ticket to a match day ticket experience - consumers are willing to purchase the basic product offering as they now perceive it as a high quality product.

As in the case of Rosenborg, one club will dominate Irish football in the short-to-medium term. However product innovation is needed to drive value in the Irish football market. Without it, product quality will not improve and ultimately, long-term, all products on the market will see a quality improvement.

Simple really :D.

I feel sick.

[Macy]

One club walking the league nearly every year, a la Rosenborg is just what the league needs alright. The fact that our league is generally competitive is one of the main selling points - gambling that European Football will prove the key to a successful league is no different from gambling on summer football, 10 team premier etc.

There is no short term fix, it has to be done on the basis of a sustainable league, with decent facilities that will slowly grow. Not some european pipedream which will only really benefit one club (i.e. whoever gets there first).

[osarusan]

2007 Brann
2006 Rosenborg
2005 Vålerenga
2004 Rosenborg
2003 Rosenborg
2002 Rosenborg
2001 Rosenborg
2000 Rosenborg
1999 Rosenborg
1998 Rosenborg
1997 Rosenborg
1996 Rosenborg
1995 Rosenborg
1994 Rosenborg
1993 Rosenborg
1992 Rosenborg


Just as well you were joking ifk!

Admittedly, Rosenborg were already the dominant club in Norway, but CL money just cemented that.

Seriously, this kind of situation could easily happen in Ireland, as the first club to qualify will surely get there again.

[Macy]

They only haven't won the league when they've been hit with resignations, and then made strange choices of replacements/structures... When they've had stable management, they've won the league.

[dcfcsteve]

Think about it along these lines.

Football is a business.

Match day tickets is the basic product.

The first Irish club to gain entry to the Champions League will gain first mover advantages.

Champions League football is a niche product segment that may generate extra product sales. In essence, Champions League football is the premium product extension of the match day ticket. As the first Irish club to enter the premium segment of the market, it is likely that this movement will attract the interest of the Irish sporting public - the consumer. What value the consumer is willing to place on the premium product offering will ultimately determine the market value of the club's first mover advantage.

If the market value is positive, other clubs will seek to piggyback this first mover advantage. They'll want Champions League football as well. Their consumers will too. This will drive other market leading clubs to enter the premium segment of the market as not to do so will ultimately damage their basic product sales.

If the Irish consumer is willing to purchase the premium product experience, it can be hoped that this purchasing pattern will generate product and brand loyalty. It's up to the individual club to market itself correctly to retain and attract new customers.

The Norwegian League is a perfect example.

Rosenborg's entry into the Champions League gave them a first-mover and competitive advantage on the Norwegian market. Other clubs have since piggybacked the Rosenborg example which in turn as raised the quality of the basic product offering in Norway.

Rosenborg's product innovation was needed to drive growth and the quality of the product offering on the Norwegian market. There was an underlining consumer demand for premium-positioned products on the Norwegian market and Norwegian clubs have supplied this demand. They have also been successful in evolving the basic product offering of a match day ticket to a match day ticket experience - consumers are willing to purchase the basic product offering as they now perceive it as a high quality product.

As in the case of Rosenborg, one club will dominate Irish football in the short-to-medium term. However product innovation is needed to drive value in the Irish football market. Without it, product quality will not improve and ultimately, long-term, all products on the market will see a quality improvement.

Simple really :D.

You're trying to over-complicate and play science with something that is fundamentally very simple.

It's not about 'the product', match tickets etc. It's about the vast sum that will be handed to the first Irish club to make the Champions League group stages. A sum divorced from the size of their fan-base, the size/quality of their stadium, or the ability of their team. This is where your 'free market' analogy collapses. It would be the equivalent of massive state intervention into an otherwise free-market.

Giving a sum like €10m to a single EL team will completely subvert the normal rules of financial practise (i.e. that your outgoings should reflect your earnings, which are a reflection of your popularity). Instead - it will enable a team to build a huge dominance, independent or even despite of its level of public popularity (Shelbourne anyone...?). If any team in the EL is handed €10m, unless they are run by complete fcukwits they will dominate the league for the forseeable future. Look at what Shels did with about a tenth of that figure !

The only way that dominance will be broken is if they then fcuk up (a la Rosenborg twice in 15 years) or if other clubs get a vast sum of money given to them. I believe this is extremely unlikely - no right-thinking business person would give a side in Ireland €10m PER YEAR in the hope of breaking the existing dominance of a team that is being given that amount every year by a third party.

The way to improve our league is through incremental improvement - possibly alied with private investment, but not where it creates an unsustainable financial bubble, and not of a level so huge as to create a massive gulf. A rising tide may lift all boats - but having only one club on the crest of a financial tsunami will oly result in the other clubs getting left far behind in their wake.

[paul_oshea]

lads, not too much has been said about who the 6 40 lowest ranked countries could be in these proposals. Surely though it augurs well for helping teams from the EL reach the golden trail.....

[paul_oshea]

lads, not too much has been said about who the 6 40 lowest ranked countries could be in these proposals. Surely though it augurs well for helping teams from the EL reach the golden trail.....

Btw, i reckon qualifying for europe also gives them an advantage on tranfers and attracting players that would normally ony look at scotland/england and also young talent from going overseas at too early an age. IN fact I would put my house on it that if and when a team qualifies for the CL it will be of huge benefit to THE league. In fact i would put my flat on it.

[Rossi]

Also look at Scotland.The money of Celtic and Rangers filters down into the rest of the league through transfers and tickets for the 'big matches'.

[dcfcsteve]

Also look at Scotland.The money of Celtic and Rangers filters down into the rest of the league through transfers and tickets for the 'big matches'.

But does it really ??

Inverness or Falkirk get 6,000 odd for their games against ther Old Firm. Whooppee-doo. We're talking about tiny crumbs here that are falling off the banqueting table of the big 2.

The SPL is the worst possible example to give of broad fiscal benefit arising from the dominance of one or two clubs. The gulf in Scottish football is now so big that there an inbuilt permanent imbalance. Honestly - can anyone see a future where both of the Old Firm are not dominant beyond the short term ??? Even the presence of a multi-millionaire Lithuanian banker at Hearts couldn't break the mould. You might be able to out-perform one or other of the Old Firm on occasion, but to out-perform both on an ongoing basis is impossible within the current SPL.

[Schumi]

The old firm dominance of Scotland goes back much further than European money though. One or other of them have won the league 80-90% of the time right back to the 1890s.

[neutrino]

This reform is part of platini's plans and on the face of it looks good. However the big clubs are trying to fight it off and prob will. In terms of the 1st irish team getting to CL proper bringing a new rosenborg type dominance;well i'm all for it - it would only benefit the entire league in terms of exposure and would increase transfer fees once again.I'd love to see a team flying the flag for Ireland in the european super elite deluxe league.

[dcfcsteve]

The old firm dominance of Scotland goes back much further than European money though. One or other of them have won the league 80-90% of the time right back to the 1890s.

But the point still stands that having what is effectively structural dominance of a league by one or two clubs does not cause any real benefit to the other clubs. Regardless of what created that imbalance in the frist place (large European money, historical existence etc).

I'd hazard a guess that the Old Firm actually divert more money OUT of the Scottish game in terms of transfer fees than they do re-circulate money in the form of transfer fees inside the league. Rangers have certainly been guilty of paying a lot of large transfer fees to ship players in from other leagues. Celtic likewise invariably have their biggest transfers involving overseas players. So you could argue that the Old Firm are actually leaking money out of the Scottish game, rather than re-circulating it to the benefit of lesser clubs (hence further cementing their dominance).

Scottish and Norwegian football are the models that we should aim to avoid in the EL, but there is a real danger that giving a single team c. €10m each year for Champions League involvement would do the opposite of that.

[dcfcsteve]

This reform is part of platini's plans and on the face of it looks good. However the big clubs are trying to fight it off and prob will. In terms of the 1st irish team getting to CL proper bringing a new rosenborg type dominance;well i'm all for it - it would only benefit the entire league in terms of exposure and would increase transfer fees once again.I'd love to see a team flying the flag for Ireland in the european super elite deluxe league.

Two flaws I see in your arguement :

1) I'm not convinced that the money would re-circulate within Irish football as much as you think beyond the short-term (see the example of the Old Firm above). A lot of it would leave the league - particularly in attracting the better Irish players back from clubs in England and Scotland, which s where the best players would still aspire to be. Derry City were the money-bags of Irish football in the last 80's, and signed players from all over (incl. asset-stripping the Shamrock Rovers 4-in-a-row team, coincidentally). Did that really create any noticeable financial uplift for the rest of the league ? I don't believe so.

2) I accept that the profile of the league etc would increase. But what would Drogheda being in the Champions League group stages genuinely do for the attendance at Kilkenny v Monaghan, for example, 3 days later ? Do Arsenal's antics in the Champions League create a thirst for people to go watch Wigan, Portsmouth or Barnet ? I'm not convinced they do, and I don't believe such an aspiration holds up to scrutiny. Look at the best example we've had recently in Ireland - Shels had 25,000 watching them draw with Deportivo on a Wednesday, followed by 1,500 watch them play an EL Premier game the following Saturday. Do we honestly think that that gulf in attendnaces will be bridged for league games if Shels played such Euro games more often ??

So I can't see how having one perpetually rich and high-flying club in Ireland would do anything other than create a structural imbalance in the league that would be extremely difficult to break, and which would therefore effectively kill the league as a spectacle (as in Scotland and Norway)

[Steve Bruce]

The reason why clubs are in Europe is to see how far they can go, to compete with other nations best teams, to improve their own standard and also for financial benefits.

I do not believe for one second that if a club made it to the CL proper that it would be bad for Irish Football either side of the border.

If anything, I think it would help our respective leagues, because it would prove that there is a decent standard of football for our people to go and watch. The progress would increase exposure for the leagues as well.

If say Linfield(who dominate football anyway) go through to the CL proper next season, yes it would give us extra money, but it would be a once in a life time amount. I do not think that once one club qualifies that, the same club would qualify most years. It doesn’t work like that and it would take an aweful lot of luck to qualify in the 1st place.

Sure you might get €10million, but will you as a club be able to attract the higher standard of player without paying extortionate wages? I doubt it.

And then if say Linfield got this sort of money, when Linfield go around the league(s) to get the best players, the clubs will bump the price of players and overprice them. e.g. Manchester United having to pay 18million for Carrick.

Theirs also another side you need to contemplate. If we had a club go into the CL proper, the amount of points that CL team would get would benefit the rest of the teams heading to Europe in the future.

Can I also say, that in the LOI especially, if say Drogheda got into the CL proper next season and they finish the season with an operating profit of €8 million euros because of the CL. Don’t you think that investers might come in for other teams, willing to put money in, in the hope to progessing the clubs in Europe and increasing the value of their investment? I’m not talking about bleeding the clubs resources, I’m talking about increasing the value of the club for the invester to get their investment to mature.

I personally cannot wait for the day, a club from this island makes it to the CL proper. But I don’t think it will be for a long time, if it does happen at all, which I hope will.

[padraicoc]

UEFA.com


Between 2009 and 2012, some 22 teams will qualify directly for the UEFA Champions League group stage instead of 16, and the UEFA Champions League final will be played on a Saturday, under format changes agreed by the UEFA Executive Committee at its meeting in Lucerne, Switzerland, on Friday.

Group stage unchanged
There will be no changes to the main part of European club football's most prestigious competition, which will continue to feature 32 teams split into eight groups of four in the group stage, followed by the knockout phase. The eight sides that finish in third place in their groups will move into the knockout phase of the UEFA Cup – which also has an amended format.

Access list
However, the UEFA Champions League access list between 2009 and 2012 will change accordingly: 22 teams go through directly to the group stage instead of 16. The six additional clubs will be the third-placed sides from the associations ranked between 1 and 3 in the ranking list, and the champions of countries ranked from 10 to 12.

Qualifying routes
Ten teams will qualify through a double qualifying route – one is reserved for the champions of the associations ranked from 13 to 53, with the exception of Liechtenstein. Five clubs will qualify via this route. The other path is reserved for the non-champions of associations rated between 1 and 15.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Rankings:
13 Czech Republic
14 Belgium
15 Greece
16 Switzerland
17 Bulgaria
18 Norway
19 Denmark
20 Austria
21 Serbia
22 Israel
23 Sweden
24 Slovakia
25 Poland
26 Hungary
27 Croatia
28 Cyprus
29 Slovenia
30 Finland
31 Latvia
32 Bosnia-Herzegovina
33 Lithuania
34 Moldova
35 Ireland
36 Macedonia
37 Iceland
38 Georgia
39 Liechtenstein
40 Belarus
41 Estonia
42 Azerbaijan
43 Albania
44 Armenia
45 Kazakhstan
46 Northern Ireland
47 Wales
48 Faroe Islands
49 Luxembourg
50 Malta
51 Andorra
52 Montenegro
53 San Marino
_____________________

5 places on offer, if it's a random draw we could do well. If it's seeded with the top half (places 13-33) playing the bottom half we might not do so well... However if we can out preform a few of the leagues above us and be seeded in the top half things would seem better...

I think that in a few year it will be possible to come out as one of the top 5 teams...

Five years time Galway United playing CL football... I can't wait and SBB doing the commentary...

[incident]

I'll try and simplify the new format as best as possible for anyone who doesn't have the patience to read through a UEFA document (http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/630630.pdf).

The very, very short version is that Ireland gets..
Champions - Champions League 1st Qualifying Round
Cup Winners - UEFA Cup 2nd Qualifying Round
2nd place - UEFA Cup 1st Qualifying Round
3rd place - UEFA Cup 1st Qualifying Round


The long version is....

Champions League

Champions Qualifying

Preliminary Round
- Champions of 6 countries ranked 48-53
Winners go to 1st Qualifying Round

1st Qualifying Round
- Champions of 31 countries ranked 16-47 (except Liechenstein)
- 3 winners from previous round
Winners go to 2nd Qualifying Round.

2nd Qualifying Round
- Champions of 3 countries ranked 13-15
- 17 winners from previous round
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round, Losers go to UEFA Cup 4th Qualifying Round.

3rd Qualifying Round
- 10 winners from previous round
Winners go to Champions League Group Stage, Losers go to UEFA Cup Group Stage.

Best Placed Qualifying

(there is no 1st round)

2nd Qualifying Round
- Second placed teams of 9 countries ranked 7-15
- Third place team from country ranked 6th
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round, Losers go to UEFA Cup 4th Qualifying Round.

3rd Qualifying Round
- Third placed teams of 2 countries ranked 4-5
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- 5 winners from previous round
Winners go to Champions League Group Stage, Losers go to UEFA Cup Group Stage.

Group Stage
- Reigning Champion
- Champions of 12 countries ranked 1-12
- Second placed teams of 6 countries ranked 1-6
- Third placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- 5 winners from Champions Qualifying Tournament
- 5 winners from Best Placed Qualifying Tournament
8 Groups of 4 teams: top 2 from each group go to Champions League Knock-out stage, 3rd place team goes to UEFA Cup Knock-out Stage.

Straight knock-out from then on..



UEFA Cup

Qualifying

1st Qualifying Round
- Third placed teams of 29 countries ranked 22-51 (except Liechenstein)
- Second placed teams of 16 countries ranked 35-51 (except Liechenstein)
- Cup Winners of San Marino and Andorra
- 3 "Fair Play" teams.
Winners go to 2nd Qualifying Round

2nd Qualifying Round
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Fourth placed teams of 6 countries ranked 10-15
- Third placed teams of 6 countries ranked 16-21
- Second placed teams of 16 countries ranked 19-34
- Cup Winners of 24 countries ranked 28-51
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round

3rd Qualifying Round
- Sixth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 4-6
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Third placed teams of 6 countries ranked 10-15
- Second placed teams of 3 countries ranked 16-18
- Cup Winners of 12 countries ranked 16-27
Winners go to 4th Qualifying Round

4th Qualifying Round
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 4-6
- Third placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Cup Winners of 15 countries ranked 1-15
- 15 Losers from Champions League 2nd Qualifying Rounds (10 from Champions Qualifying, 5 from Best Placed Qualifying)
Winners go to Group Stage

Group Stage
- Reigning Champion
- 37 winners from 3rd Qualifying Round
- 10 losers from Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round (5 from Champions Qualifying, 5 from Best Placed Qualifying)
12 Groups of 4 teams: top 2 from each group go to Knock-out stage

Knock-out Stage
- 24 qualified from Group Stage
- 8 third placed teams from Champions League Group Stage


Does this get the record for dullest post ever on foot.ie?

[osarusan]

Does this get the record for dullest post ever on foot.ie?

No, but it might get the record for being the post people are most likely to read carefully at the start, then lose patience and scroll quickly down scanning for the word "Ireland", then get to the end of the post, and not bother going back up to look again.

Or maybe I'm the only one.

[Dazzy]

So basically we will be doing the same as we always did in the CL.

[Schumi]

No, but it might get the record for being the post people are most likely to read carefully at the start, then lose patience and scroll quickly down scanning for the word "Ireland", then get to the end of the post, and not bother going back up to look again.Spot on. :D


From the bit I did read: does the league have to make it to #30 to be seeded in the 1st qualifying round now?

[Celdrog]

Why are Liechenstein being singled out?

[incident]

No, but it might get the record for being the post people are most likely to read carefully at the start, then lose patience and scroll quickly down scanning for the word "Ireland", then get to the end of the post, and not bother going back up to look again.

Or maybe I'm the only one.
That's why I listed exactly where the Irish teams enter right at the start ;)


Spot on. :D


From the bit I did read: does the league have to make it to #30 to be seeded in the 1st qualifying round now?
Assuming it's still seeded, it'd be #32 I think.

[CollegeTillIDie]

A point made earlier during about the Old Firm, being dominant is true except for one stage during the mid 1980's when Aberdeen and Dundee United were dominant for a five year stretch and were dubbed the ''New Firm''. Unfortunately their rise to prominence didn't last and the previous status quo was soon resumed from 1986, when Celtic beat Hearts to the title on goal difference, to date. It would be good for the game in Scotland if Hearts and Hibs were to emerge as top 4 clubs and Aberdeen and Dundee United were to return to something like their early-mid 1980's status !

[Poor Student]

Why are Liechenstein being singled out?

They don't have a proper national league. Their best clubs play in the Swiss football pyramid. There's only a national cup competiton, the winner of which (nearly always Vaduz) gets into the UEFA.

[sullanefc]

They don't have a proper national league. Their best clubs play in the Swiss football pyramid. There's only a national cup competiton, the winner of which (nearly always Vaduz) gets into the UEFA.

How come they get away with not having a proper national league, and every other country HAS to have one??

I always thought that if we were to have an All-Ireland League, we would also have to have an all Ireland national team?

Let's say Lichtenstein was the equivelent of NI and the Swiss was ROI, couldn't you have an All-Ireland League (1CL spot & 2 UEFA spots), an Irish cup (1 UEFA spot) and an Ulster Cup (1UEFA spot) and 2 national teams. Everybody wins???

Back on topic though, I'm all for one team getting into the CL group stages. I don't think it will have as detremental effect as some people think it will.

1) Bohs apparantly have €10 mill and they are not dominating.
2) Its not like an Irish team will qualify every year and thus having €10 mill per year, more like €10 mill every now and again when they get lucky enough to qualify.
3) Local pride. More punters will see a rival team with some glamour and playing in the CL and will hopefully come out and support they're own team.
4) On the point of Shelbourne getting 25,000 for the deportivo game and 1500 the next was poor marketing. If a team was to make the CL group stages then tickets would have to be sold in pairs. (1CL ticket + 1 league ticket) Like the way Ireland sells international tickets.

[CuanaD]

Assuming it's still seeded, it'd be #32 I think.

Yep, and 34th would get our second placed team straight into the 2nd quali round of the UEFA, with our cup winners.


we are already 35th, so a decent euro run again next year could see us starting with that scenario :eek: :ball:

[CollegeTillIDie]

They get away with not having a senior League because they only have something like 9 Senior clubs all of whom play in Swiss regional leagues. FC Vaduz play in the Swiss Second Division and keep missing out on promotion. No shortage of money over there for their clubs because Liechtenstein is one of the banking centres of Europe. Lack of people is the main problem for that country and it's ability to host a League.

[dcfcsteve]

How come they get away with not having a proper national league, and every other country HAS to have one??

1) No different than Wales having a "national league", but their best teams playing in England.

2) You don't "have" to have a national league. I'm not aware of any country that has been put on the spot by UEFA/FIFA over this. Those that have acted defensively (e.g Wales ) have done so pre-emptively.


I always thought that if we were to have an All-Ireland League, we would also have to have an all Ireland national team?

Says who ? And as if we couldn't blag an exemption due to our troubled history.... :eek:


Back on topic though, I'm all for one team getting into the CL group stages. I don't think it will have as detremental effect as some people think it will.

1) Bohs apparantly have €10 mill and they are not dominating.

When have Bohs spent €10m....? Anyway - there's a difference between being given a gift against long-term equity (i.e stadium value) and being given €10m full-stop.


4) On the point of Shelbourne getting 25,000 for the deportivo game and 1500 the next was poor marketing. If a team was to make the CL group stages then tickets would have to be sold in pairs. (1CL ticket + 1 league ticket) Like the way Ireland sells international tickets.

If you're telling me the only way an Irish team in the CL group stages is going to increase it's EL attendances is by effectively forcing participation, then you've already lost the arguement.... :o

[higgins]

FC Vaduz can't gain entry to UEFA competitions through the swiss leagues. Even if they won the Premier Swiss league they'd not be allowed entry. Cardiff and Wrexham also play in the english league under these conditions I think.

Going on that basis we'd have teams from the North playing in the Eircom League and they couldn't get a place in europe!

As for the new format, I think it's fantastic news for our league. If we can get ourselves seeded in the QR1 game you're looking at 2 more CL games and entry into the UEFA cup when you get knocked out.

It wouldn't be country seeding that qualifies you as a seed in QR1 so just getting to 32nd alone isn't going to be good enough. Teams need to begin to up their team seeding for a place in the seeded section.

[dcfcsteve]

FC Vaduz can't gain entry to UEFA competitions through the swiss leagues. Even if they won the Premier Swiss league they'd not be allowed entry. Cardiff and Wrexham also play in the english league under these conditions I think.

Not true.

It is down to each FA to nominate to UEFA who their European reps are. The English FA would have no problem nominating Cardiff etc, were they to be in a position to qualify for Europe. The Welsh FA are the only ones who've said they wouldn't nominate one of those teams for a Euro slot, were they in a position to win one (e.g. by entering and winning the WFA Cup).

[Cymro]

Not true.

It is down to each FA to nominate to UEFA who their European reps are. The English FA would have no problem nominating Cardiff etc, were they to be in a position to qualify for Europe. The Welsh FA are the only ones who've said they wouldn't nominate one of those teams for a Euro slot, were they in a position to win one (e.g. by entering and winning the WFA Cup).

Actually that's not true, the English FA have said pretty explicitly in a couple of letters (and I've emailed the FA too and got the same response) that they would not nominate a Welsh club for Europe.

As for the new format for the CL, I absolutely loathe it. My main complaint is that UEFA have managed to create another barrier between the haves and the have-nots, we've now got a ridiculous pre-qualifying round that consists of the bottom six nations in Europe. (which could quite feasibly contain Wales and Northern Ireland in future, as we are the two nations immediately above the bottom six) Why in God's name we have to put FOUR qualifying rounds between the top ranked sides and the bottom ranked sides I don't know. Put simply, it's totally robbing the bottom countries of any chance to make any long-term progress in Europe and smacks of a conservative, rich-and-poor attitude.

Bástards. :mad:

[higgins]

Cymro, I can't believe you're knocking the first Round of 6!

There's a reason why they are down that low and drawing teams ranked in the 30's is going to end in one sided games. When the bottom six play they will at least have the chance to progress and meet a side further up. It's better to have the chance of 4 games and not go out every year after 2!

Also one win every few seasons will keep you well above this first qualifying round so it really shouldnt be a problem if you're half decent.

Avoiding one sided games has to be a must.

I really like the new format.

[Cymro]

My problem is that the 3 clubs that get knocked out in pre-qualifying get didly squat, even less than they get at present and no chance of an even moderately prestigious tie against a side from Norway, Austria, Denmark etc etc that will get a decent gate reciept and a bit of TV coverage.

Also, the clubs that do make it through are then going to be disadvantaged by injuries/suspensions/fatigue when they come to play in the first qualifying round.

More than anything though I just don't like the idea of clubs having such inequality. I think all clubs should start off in round one with no seeds and an open draw. It's bad enough as it is, UEFA have just gone and made it worse.

Even if Wales never drop into the bottom 6, I would still truly loathe it.

Additionally, I do think those clubs are capable of competing at the current level, ie QR1. Look at the bottom 6. Andorra and San Marino got coefficient points this time around, Luxembourg got a team through against Lillestrom. They can compete. There are very few one-sided ties in Europe, and the ones that are are usually freak results and not confined to specific nations on a consistent basis.

[higgins]

I think fans would have more interest in the games when your team has a decent chance of winning ?? It may be great to get teams from Denmark, Sweden etc but after 3 or 4 years of getting hammered then what attraction is there?

We've not had the Champions from some of these countries in the competition before so they can be at least happy enough to have a place. Qualifying rounds are the best way to keep the competition interesting. If anything I'd like there to be one more qualifying round as the more games the weaker nations get the better.

Losing 5/6/7 nothing and having a home leg to come is not exactly going to do these teams any good. Nobody will have any interest after a few seasons.

If you're good enough you'll get your chance to play the better sides further on.

[Cymro]

My point is that they are currently good enough-at least to give a decent account of themselves, and that by putting them into pre-qualifying, UEFA are denying three potentially competitive teams to participate in the CL qualifying proper. It is possible that you missed my edit, but if not, how would you respond to the points made, especially regarding Kaerjeng v Lillestrom?

Also, if you can find more than one or two 5/6/7-0 scorelines in any given European competition over one leg these days, I would be surprised. Generally, you get the odd freak result (I would regard Carmarthen v Brann this year, for example, as being one) but most teams are competitive (the three other Welsh sides lost out on the away goals rule only)

[Rossi]

Just looking at the new proposals and i see if the Irish Champions make it through to the third round (ie just win one tie) and then lose, they will be entered into the UEFA Cup 4th round so surely this makes it easier for our Champions to make it to the UEFA Cup group stages?

[higgins]

Cymro, You can't go taking one game as an indication of how these teams will do in the coming years. Going on the results of the national sides and from the very few times I've watched these sides, you're going to get many one sided games.

If you bring the six teams into the following round then you're going to have to up the amount of teams in that round to get the correct numbers going through. It's not a case of just bringing the six in, you have to work the numbers and I just think that if you're good enough you'll get through to play the bigger teams.

[Cymro]

My argument is not that they will win every game though. It's merely that they can be competitive enough to justify their position amongst the rest of the 21st-down ranked sides. Of course it's unlikely that Kaerjeng will beat Lillestrom every time, but they will usually play well enough to keep the score respectable. Your argument is that they are not good enough to compete full stop, which is just not true.

About the numbers-it worked fine this year, although we have since lost the Intertoto Cup. Not that that should really mean anything.