Would other Countries want Ireland in their group?

[Hibernian]

We are going on about who would we like to get for or group for World Cup 2010 but how would other countries react to getting Rep of Ireland in there group would you think??

Personnally it depends. Im sure most pot one teams wont mind playing us but im sure we would not be first on everybodys lips either to come out of Pot Three(thats if we are in that Pot).

[drinkfeckarse]

They certainly wouldn't fear us anyway. A lot depends on the new manager and the system/belief/pride etc he instills in the team. We could be dark horses or we could be dross...again.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm sure Switzerland and Cyprus would love it, not that they themselves are comparable.

I'd say most oppositiopn coaches would come up with the usual "we know how Ireland play, a British style physical game, never giving you a chance to settle, a big man upfront etc.". Little do they know we're a bunch of lightweight shortarses who at the moment don't have any style of play whatsoever.

[Hibernian]

But if the seeds are to be believed I think Ireland would be ones to avoid in Pot Three. I think Teams would prefer Hungary for example or even Norn Iron.

Yes I say Switzerland would be already through to WC2010 if they got us :D

[irishfan86]

But if the seeds are to be believed I think Ireland would be ones to avoid in Pot Three. I think Teams would prefer Hungary for example or even Norn Iron.

Yes I say Switzerland would be already through to WC2010 if they got us :D

Yeah we're definitely an undesirable third seed on paper- whether or not we can turn that potential into anything is something else altogether.

As for Norn Iron, there's no way in hell anybody wants to face David Healy right now.

[shakermaker1982]

I think they'd be a little worried about having to come to Dublin (we're still undefeated at Croke Park 4 games in :) ) but they can be sure of 3 points in the bank when they play us at home.

[Hibernian]

True I know there on rich vain of form but there one of teams that I think most people will see as having no chance of getting out of there group. There away record is not good enough and will have to improve greatly if they are get near South Africa.

I know there very hard to beat at home but think all pot one teams would win there and would learn from the mistakes that Sweden and Spain made there as well as Denmark who at end of day Ireland hammered away not so long ago.

[EalingGreen]

But if the seeds are to be believed I think Ireland would be ones to avoid in Pot Three. I think Teams would prefer Hungary for example or even Norn Iron.
Yes I say Switzerland would be already through to WC2010 if they got us :D

Yeah, right. Just ask any Spaniard (Lost 1), Swede (Drew 1, Lost 1) or Dane (Drew 1, Lost 1)...:eek:

[Ceirtlis]

I'm sure Switzerland and Cyprus would love it, not that they themselves are comparable.

I'd say most oppositiopn coaches would come up with the usual "we know how Ireland play, a British style physical game, never giving you a chance to settle, a big man upfront etc.". Little do they know we're a bunch of lightweight shortarses who at the moment don't have any style of play whatsoever.

Ya the standard line trotted out by international managers facing ireland or club teams facing eircom league teams in europe. Id say our name still has some standing on the european front though but only on past performance, abit like belgium who are poor at the moment.

[Ceirtlis]

Yeah, right. Just ask any Spaniard (Lost 1), Swede (Drew 1, Lost 1) or Dane (Drew 1, Lost 1)...:eek:

The minnows love ye though.

[Hibernian]

But at end of day they still wont qualify for Euro 2008(I know they still have chance but no).

They lost to Iceland twice and Lativa.

Do not see teams like Germany, Italy or France losing that many points to Norn Iron

[EalingGreen]

True I know there on rich vain of form but there one of teams that I think most people will see as having no chance of getting out of there group. There away record is not good enough and will have to improve greatly if they are get near South Africa.

I know there very hard to beat at home but think all pot one teams would win there and would learn from the mistakes that Sweden and Spain made there as well as Denmark who at end of day Ireland hammered away not so long ago.

The ROI hammering Denmark in a friendly is meaningless; you did the same against Sweden, iirc, too, which turned out to be equally meaningless. The Scandinavian summer season is out of synch with the main European Winter Leagues which most of their star play in. Therefore, they are known for not taking friendlies seriously.

When Denmark played NI, a victory at Windsor, along with a home victory over Iceland in their last game, would still have given them an outside chance of qualifying.

But after Saturday, they'll not want to come back to Windsor in a hurry - and I don't mean due to the weather, either! ;)

[RogerMilla]

anyone who would prefer northern ireland to us at the moment as group opponents is an idiot. EG are you posting from the airport ? couldnt get on the flight ? ;-)

[paul_oshea]

True I know there on rich vain of form but there one of teams that I think most people will see as having no chance of getting out of there group. There away record is not good enough and will have to improve greatly if they are get near South Africa.

I know there very hard to beat at home but think all pot one teams would win there and would learn from the mistakes that Sweden and Spain made there as well as Denmark who at end of day Ireland hammered away not so long ago.

YOu know, I was sure you were on about Ireland there for a min ;) It took me a few times to read that :D


They lost to Iceland twice and Lativa.


Ye know, whatever we think about losing to cyprus and what not, but any NORN IRON fan must be really kicking themselves, knowning that a win there now and they would have been through, in any of the games.....but i spose had they won them they prolly wouldn't have beaten sweden etc....

[EalingGreen]

The minnows love ye though.

Not exactly - we beat Liechtenstein comfortably home and away and Latvia at home. And we only lost away to Latvia due to a combination of a new manager getting used to his players in his second game (since possibly put right), plus a dreadful own goal.

I'll give you Iceland, mind, who really are our bogey team. No NI fan wants to meet them ever again! :eek:

[EalingGreen]

Do not see teams like Germany, Italy or France losing that many points to Norn Iron

Those teams don't lose many points to anyone, never mind NI! Though as it happens, our record against Germany is actually pretty good, all things considered.

The highlight was in the qualifying games for Euro84, when we beat them home and away, something no country has ever done, before or since. In fact, we finished level with them on points in the Group, but missed out on the one qualifying place on Goal Difference. Had it been Head-to-Head, we'd have been there and it would have meant the Germans failing to qualify for a major tournament for the first and only time...:(

[Hibernian]

I can see Norn Iron winning tomorrow night but cant see Sweden losing at home, but you never know.

Republic should be looking at Scotland and Norn Iron and learn from them big time and see how teams with bit of pride want it more then the opposition.

[as_i_say]

If you're talking about the Danish game, I have never seen such a stone wall penalty as the one the danes were denied in the last few minutes. The lad volleyed a close range shot which was blocked full on by an outstretched arm from a NI defender on the line.

So you were well lucky to win that game, not taking away from healy who is incredible but if i was a NI fan i would be very annoyed with Sanchez for leaving and the IFA for not getting him to finish the campaign. 1 win against either iceland or latvia (who lost to liechtenstein) and you would be serious contenders for qualification.

Would take a double miracle now. The north have blown it big time, just like we have done in the past-i cant see them replicating the same threats next competetion.

[EalingGreen]

EG are you posting from the airport ? couldnt get on the flight ? ;-)

Fraid not (personal circs). Still very tempted to just go to an airport tomorrow morning, get on a plane and worry about causing the collapse of Barclaycard when I get back, mind...:eek:

[RogerMilla]

causing the collapse of Barclaycard when I get back, mind...:eek:

by default you mean ? more likely to add to their shareprice EG if you do enough damage with it in the canaries...

[paul_oshea]

no if a bank is owed so much money and that cant be repaid it would cause the bank to collapse. Just like Barings....you know that bank roger :D

[EalingGreen]

Ye know, whatever we think about losing to cyprus and what not, but any NORN IRON fan must be really kicking themselves, knowning that a win there now and they would have been through, in any of the games.....but i spose had they won them they prolly wouldn't have beaten sweden etc....

You're probably right that had we beaten all the minnows, we might not have taken many points from the big boys (although I feel that had we kept Sanchez, we might still have pulled it off?).

Anyhow, what you have to remember is that in a 12 match Group, you can actually afford to lose two, or even three games, so long as its against the also-rans.

Whereas, in a tight Group like ours with four teams all in with a shout, even one defeat against one of the other big teams can screw you, if it's accompanied by a load of (otherwise) creditable draws. In fact, wasn't that what did for the ROI in your last WC Qualifiers?

P.S. The new system of deciding positions on "Head-to-Heads" rather than Goal Difference makes it even more important to pick up points against the big teams, and defeats by the little teams relatively less important.

[paul_oshea]

EG I think I know what you are trying to say but I dont think its correct, if you are in a tight group you need to be guaranteeing the wins against the also-rans, just like ye havent done in this group. IF ye had ye would be through.

In the last WC qualifer, we failed to beat switzerland and Israel ( also rans ) at home, that was our porblem, plus throwing a lead against Israel again.....

[RogerMilla]

EG I think I know what you are trying to say but I dont think its correct, if you are in a tight group you need to be guaranteeing the wins against the also-rans, just like ye havent done in this group. IF ye had ye would be through.

In the last WC qualifer, we failed to beat switzerland and Israel ( also rans ) at home, that was our porblem, plus throwing a lead against Israel again.....

in the next campaign our home record must improve , our away record can only improve !

[EalingGreen]

no if a bank is owed so much money and that cant be repaid it would cause the bank to collapse. Just like Barings....you know that bank roger :D

As they say, if you owe the Bank £100, you've got a problem, but if you owe the bank £100m, they've got a problem.

My problem is that it was my girlfriend's Barclaycard I was referring to! :eek:

[carloz]

My opinion would be that thee would be the order that most countries would look at the 3rd seeds, starting with the hardest

Turkey, Denmark, Republic of Ireland, Bulgaria, Northern Ireland, Israel, Switzerland, Finland and Hungary


Turkey, Swizerland, Bulgaria, Israel, ROI, Finland, Denmark, Northern Ireland, Hungary


Really Bulgaria. Israel us Finland and Denmark are nearly inseperable at the moment i would think. I think most of us would agree that Turkey and Switzerland is who everyone wans to avoid, while Hungary is who they all want. Very difficult pot actually

[carloz]

P.S. The new system of deciding positions on "Head-to-Heads" rather than Goal Difference makes it even more important to pick up points against the big teams, and defeats by the little teams relatively less important.

Isnt that what cost Northern Ireland. Really the only reason Northern Ireland havent qualified by now is Iceland, a nothing team.

[RogerMilla]

Turkey, Denmark, Republic of Ireland, Bulgaria, Northern Ireland, Israel, Switzerland, Finland and Hungary




i see norn iron as better than us , certainly not on paper but in actuality they are better , agreed no one wants turkey , isreal also quite sticky , delighted to be avoiding some of these teams !

[Hibernian]

My opinion would be that thee would be the order that most countries would look at the 3rd seeds, starting with the hardest

Turkey, Denmark, Republic of Ireland, Bulgaria, Northern Ireland, Israel, Switzerland, Finland and Hungary


Turkey, Swizerland, Bulgaria, Israel, ROI, Finland, Denmark, Northern Ireland, Hungary


Really Bulgaria. Israel us Finland and Denmark are nearly inseperable at the moment i would think. I think most of us would agree that Turkey and Switzerland is who everyone wans to avoid, while Hungary is who they all want. Very difficult pot actually


would not argue with this to be honest see Turkey and Switzerland as teams more would want to avoid

[EalingGreen]

If you're talking about the Danish game, I have never seen such a stone wall penalty as the one the danes were denied in the last few minutes. The lad volleyed a close range shot which was blocked full on by an outstretched arm from a NI defender on the line.

So you were well lucky to win that game, not taking away from healy who is incredible but if i was a NI fan i would be very annoyed with Sanchez for leaving and the IFA for not getting him to finish the campaign. 1 win against either iceland or latvia (who lost to liechtenstein) and you would be serious contenders for qualification.

Would take a double miracle now. The north have blown it big time, just like we have done in the past-i cant see them replicating the same threats next competetion.

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid, about our being lucky vs Denmark. Sure, they should have had a penalty, but their goal came direct from a throw-in to them which clearly came off a Danish shin last, so these things even themselves out.

The fact is, the Danes may just have shaded a (goalless) first half which was ruined by the atrocious conditions, but we completely dominated the second, despite conceding the opener after 50 minutes, and being under pressure for the last five minutes, when the Danes threw everyone up in desperation.

And for once, the stats back this up. NI had 54% Possession to 46%; we had 9 corners to their 4; we conceded 9 fouls to their 13; and we had 12 goal attempts to their seven. Most tellingly, only two of their attempts were on target (the goal and the handball), whereas we had 8 on target. Looking back, Taylor had little to do, whereas Sorenson was probably their best player.

As for Sanchez, sure we'd have loved him to stay, but no reasonable fan begrudges him the opportunity to manage full-time in one of the biggest three Leagues in the world. In fact, we're just grateful to have had him long enough to turn us from being a being a bit of a laughing stock, to being the proudest team and supporters in the world.

And you're right, we almost certainly won't qualify, indeed this campaign could represent a high-water mark for us, before we sink back down again. But so what? Unlike e.g. England or (dare I say it?) ROI, we still have fairly reasonable expectations of our team, which is why we didn't turn on McIlroy when we were awful, on Sanchez when he departed early, or on Worthington when he screwed up in Latvia and Iceland.

As the song says, "We're not Brazil, we're Northern Ireland, but it's all the same to me..." ;)

[citizenerased]

id say people would favour us over Israel, Switzerland, Turkey etc..

Pot 3 is really tough we are blessed we didnt get put in pot 4...

[Hibernian]

Hungary should not be in third Pot they have not been a major player in Europe for many moons now.

I do recall they getting to playoff few years back but since then and in last 15-20 years they have done very little I would take them as fourth seed if we could.

[EalingGreen]

Isnt that what cost Northern Ireland. Really the only reason Northern Ireland havent qualified by now is Iceland, a nothing team.

No! Our first two games were against Iceland and Spain at home. Reasonable expectations were for four points - three v Iceland and 1 v Spain.

In fact, we got three points, but the way things worked out, that was just as good (arguably better?), since Iceland were never going to threaten the Group, whereas taking three off Spain immediately boosted us and put them under pressure. In fact, it was beating Spain and Sweden and drawing in Denmark which put us top of the Group at the half way stage. Dropping three points at home to Iceland, whilst a blow, didn't hurt us nearly as much as those other three results cost them. Indeed, if we should qualify (v.unlikely, I know), it will be because we will have gained 23 points in a competitive Group. Who we got them against is important only for the "head-to-head"; we will edge out Sweden because we took four points off them. The fact that they took six off Iceland and we took none will be irrelevant.

[Which, as a side issue, may be something which should worry ROI. It's all very well beating the smaller teams consistently, but any continuance of your recent inability to pull off results against the big boys, if only at home, could cost you dear. In fact, these "Qualification Six Pointers" are the International equivalent of "Relegation Six Pointers" in club football]

[ifk101]

I think Sweden would be a good draw out of the second seeds. A number of their more prominent internationals will retire and a change of coach is likely before the start of qualifying.

[Maroon 7]

ROI, we still have fairly reasonable expectations of our team, which is why we didn't turn on McIlroy when we were awful, on Sanchez when he departed early
;)

You can't be serious unless you mean you didn't turn on them at the matches (not sure if you had the chance with Sanchez though). I remember reading loads of abuse on OWC towards McIlroy and Sanchez after he left.

[RogerMilla]

but any continuance of your recent inability to pull off results against the big boys, if only at home, could cost you dear. In fact, these "Qualification Six Pointers" are the International equivalent of "Relegation Six Pointers" in club football]

spot on , three points against the big boys at home is the key to qualification.
2002 3 holland and 1 portugal
2004 0 switzerland and 1 russia
2006 1 switzerland and 0 france
2008 1 germany and 1 Czechs

no prizes for guessing which group we progressed from....

[EalingGreen]

You can't be serious unless you mean you didn't turn on them at the matches (not sure if you had the chance with Sanchez though). I remember reading loads of abuse on OWC towards McIlroy and Sanchez after he left.

Granted, there was no shortage of opinions on the managers on OWC*, but what counted was the reaction amongst the fans. And the fact is, we never turned on either team or manager during the bad old day of Sammy Mac, nor was there any reaction against Lawrie, either. In fact, Lawrie still visits NI from time to time, where he gets a great reception.

Indeed, it is notable the contrast in the attitude of our respective support to failed managers. Sammy was never really booed or abused, unlike Stan. In fact, NI fans will tell you "Sammy Mac was a crap manager, but he'll always be a legend as a player". Whereas the reaction I'm seeing amongst ROI fans (admittedly possibly unrepresentative) is "Stan might have been a legend as a player, but he was still a crap manager". The change in emphasis may not be coincidental!


* - The "hotheads" on OWC might have made most noise, but the various Polls conducted showed a more equable consensus. And besides, OWC only represents a section of the NI support.

[Stuttgart88]

1990 qualification:

Home wins over Spain, Hungary, Malta and Northern Ireland

1988 qualification:

Home wins over Bulgaria and Luxembourg only.

Point taken though.

More pertinently I think 4-5 points in total from the top two seeds is essential to really be in the running.

Stopping your immediate competition from winning - and hence gaining a 3 point advantage - is essential.

If a top seeded team drops points somewhere, which they invaraibly do, improving on their performance in the equivalent game is essential too. That's why Israel away was so frustrating. Everyone was dropping points there so winning there was 2 points that France & Switzerland couldn't have got. Simple, but true.

[eirebhoy]

No! Our first two games were against Iceland and Spain at home. Reasonable expectations were for four points - three v Iceland and 1 v Spain.

Aye but qualification wasn't even a reasonable expectation at the time.

[Stuttgart88]

Indeed, it is notable the contrast in the attitude of our respective support to failed managers. Sammy was never really booed or abused, unlike Stan. In fact, NI fans will tell you "Sammy Mac was a crap manager, but he'll always be a legend as a player". You're not comparing like with like, unless McIlroy was an inarticulate rookie billed in advance as a "world class manager" who had a squad of experienced Premiership footballers at his disposal and who had absolutely no idea of the basics and who did not have the humility to admit that things weren't going well. If we hadn't voiced our disapproval - most of us doing so in a very measured manner - we may still have him in charge.

[paul_oshea]

My problem is that it was my girlfriend's Barclaycard I was referring to!


:8 When/where did ye get her? www.putherinthepost.ie.co.uk or is she a FIFA exec, in the legal department by any chance ;)

[youngirish]

Hard to answer this question at the moment but If we get Jewell or Houillier as a manager I'd say very few teams would want us in their group. However if we get Souness or Brady the answer is everybody.

It's also unfair to say we are a less attractive proposition for opposition managers than NI at present. I'd say currently most managers in Europe would prefer to get the ROI, a team currently in turmoil and freefalling in the rankings over recent years to a more settled NI team seemingly on the up. Until a new manager comes in and rectifies this I'd expect that situation to remain.

[EalingGreen]

You're not comparing like with like, unless McIlroy was an inarticulate rookie billed in advance as a "world class manager" who had a squad of experienced Premiership footballers at his disposal and who had absolutely no idea of the basics and who did not have the humility to admit that things weren't going well. If we hadn't voiced our disapproval - most of us doing so in a very measured manner - we may still have him in charge.

Obviously it's not an exact comparison between Sam and Stan, but I would point out that it was not Stan who billed himself a World class manager, but JD.

And if Sammy had some experience in management, it was only at a lowly level i.e. taking Macclesfield from non-league to the (old) Fourth Division i.e.hardly more than the Eircom.

Moreover, whatyever else you think of him, it must have been very hard for Stan to walk away from the massive salary he was being paid by the FAI. Whereas, Sammy broke his Contract with the IFA to desert to the mighty Stockport County (where, btw, he sunk like a stone before being sacked and re-emerging once more in non-League).

But for all that I must be amongst his sternest critics as a manager, I also respect Sammy both as a player and a human being, and so would never personally abuse him in the same way as some abused Stan, when he found himself in similarly difficult or unfortunate circumstances.

And before anyone has a pop at me for making that point, I am not insinuating that ROI fans are any less inherently reasonable than their NI counterparts. If pushed, I'd guess it is primarily because ROI fans have much greater expectations than NI fans.

(Of course, if you were to ask me whether those expectations were reasonable, you might not like the answer! But that's a topic for another thread...;))

[ifk101]

Obviously it's not an exact comparison between Sam and Stan, but I would point out that it was not Stan who billed himself a World class manager, but JD.

And if Sammy had some experience in management, it was only at a lowly level i.e. taking Macclesfield from non-league to the (old) Fourth Division i.e.hardly more than the Eircom.

Moreover, whatyever else you think of him, it must have been very hard for Stan to walk away from the massive salary he was being paid by the FAI. Whereas, Sammy broke his Contract with the IFA to desert to the mighty Stockport County (where, btw, he sunk like a stone before being sacked and re-emerging once more in non-League).

But for all that I must be amongst his sternest critics as a manager, I also respect Sammy both as a player and a human being, and so would never personally abuse him in the same way as some abused Stan, when he found himself in similarly difficult or unfortunate circumstances.

And before anyone has a pop at me for making that point, I am not insinuating that ROI fans are any less inherently reasonable than their NI counterparts. If pushed, I'd guess it is primarily because ROI fans have much greater expectations than NI fans.

(Of course, if you were to ask me whether those expectations were reasonable, you might not like the answer! But that's a topic for another thread...;))

Then again maybe there was enough Northern Ireland fans at the time to get an abuse campaign going against Sammy McIlroy. Out of interest what was the average attendance at Windsor during McIlroy's reign??

[Hibernian]

Then again maybe there was enough Northern Ireland fans at the time to get an abuse campaign going against Sammy McIlroy. Out of interest what was the average attendance at Windsor during McIlroy's reign??


I presume they got a full capicty still.

Its not as if Windsor is 80,000 seater

Would I be right EG?

[Irish_Praha]

How the fupp did this turn into another ROI vs NI thread. I know we are both in pot 3 but there's a selection of other teams in there too!
It's a fact that NI did better than ROI in the current qualifiers, beating one of the top two seeds and still (bearly) in contention up until the last game. Maybe they will go one better and qualify for the WC or they have reached their peak and will fade away. Maybe ROI will appoint a messiah of a manager that will give their supposedly superior players a good kick up the hole resulting in a vast improvement or maybe we are going to be submitted to another 2 years of dross and ultimate failure. To be honest this ROI vs NI debate is starting to get on my tits here. One or two threads which I can choose to avoid is fine but it's infiltrating too many threads IMO. I was actually looking forward to reading people's opinions when i saw the title of this thread but it looks like another one I will be avoiding, unfortunately. :(

[Bungle]

In my opinion, pots 2 and 3 are almost inseperable in terms of standard.

Turkey, Bulgaria and Switzerland are very decent teams, while Denmark regularly qualify for most tournaments. Israel are a decent side too. Finland have had a very good campaign in a tough group but I wish they had been a fourth seed at the expense of a team like Bosnia or Georgia. Hungary don't belong as a third seed. As already pointed out, they're a fourth seed at best.

As for Norn Iron, on paper they are an average team but they certainly deserve to be third seeds. Their home record is outstanding and they have gone to places like Denmark and Sweden and come away with points. I am happy to avoid them, as I could see them taking points off us in both Dublin and Belfast.

Ideal group:
Czech Republic, Scotland, Moldova, Liechtenstein and Andorra.

Horror group:
Holland, Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Kazakhstan

That group contains exactly the type of teams that could take points off us. Holland could conceivably win both games against us, while Russia are always tricky in Moscow. In none of the other games would I put too much money on an away win.

[Cymro]

I wouldn't mind you guys again, but you're probably about on a par with most teams in your pot, bar maybe Switzerland who are a really decent team in my opinion. I'd like Hungary at the moment, they are just about in pot 3 but have had a disappointing campaign this time around and we could be looking to beat them.

Northern Ireland would also be good as we've shown fairly recently we can beat them, though whether we'd beat them if we played each other tomorrow is debateable.

[Stuttgart88]

Cymro, I see your U21s are beating France. That'll be a great result.

If we do get Wales again it'll be good to have you back on here. Good luck.

[Cymro]

Thank you, Stuttgart. Equally, I'll enjoy posting on here if we're drawn together again. I have really enjoyed the banter and discussion in this campaign.