Young irish players and continental clubs

[Metrostars]

Not sure if this is the correct forum for this but why don't young Irish players get trials for continental clubs? I never hear of young players going to a club in Holland, Spain or Germany. Only to England/Scotland. Why is that? I only ask the question as I see a lot of young Americans getting trials in Holland, Sweden, Germany etc.

e.g. http://www.yanks-abroad.com/get.php?mode=players

[Sligo Hornet]

Not sure if this is the correct forum for this but why don't young Irish players get trials for continental clubs? I never hear of young players going to a club in Holland, Spain or Germany. Only to England/Scotland. Why is that? I only ask the question as I see a lot of young Americans getting trials in Holland, Sweden, Germany etc.

e.g. http://www.yanks-abroad.com/get.php?mode=players

When I read the title of the thread I thought poor old "youngirish" had been shipped abroad.....:D

[Dodge]

Because English clubs ask first. Americans "tout" themselves to clubs but English clubs actively recruit Irish kids

[youngirish]

When I read the title of the thread I thought poor old "youngirish" had been shipped abroad.....:D

Wishful thinking.

[Stuttgart88]

Or as an excellent poster on chatsoccer.eu says "how can our players play international football if they don't play internationally?".

Liam Miller & Michael Doyle have both played in Denmark, O'Shea, Stack and Gibson in Belgium but all on loan from UK clubs.

[Kingdom]

Its something I never understand either. Particularily if you're a defender. I always thought a good defender would have more chance of succeeding on the continent rather than the UK

[Stuttgart88]

I think the technically good but physically lightweight players like Stephen McPhail and Liam Miller would have had better careers, or at least a better playing education, on the continent too.

[Dodge]

Its something I never understand either. Particularily if you're a defender. I always thought a good defender would have more chance of succeeding on the continent rather than the UK

Nothing stopped the players from seeking these moves themselevs. The facts are most Irish kids are afraid to do it, or at least feel comforable enough in the UK. Because the British clubs take these lads on when they're 15-16 they get engrained in that culture. And lets not forget the language/travel thing too

I'd love a few 17 year olds at Barca rather than Celtic but its up to the player 9and their families) to make it happen

[osarusan]

The lure of more cash in Britain, no language barrier, they're closer to home (in some cases they just stay home)......any more?

[kingdom hoop]

any more?

More glamour/chance of 'dream come true', precipitated by the infatuation with the English leagues in Ireland.

Concerns that continental birds may not be as slaggy as their English counterparts.

[Ireland4ever]

Concerns that continental birds may not be as slaggy as their English counterparts.

Hit the nail on the head there!:D:D

[Sligo Hornet]

More glamour/chance of 'dream come true', precipitated by the infatuation with the English leagues in Ireland.

Concerns that continental birds may not be as slaggy as their English counterparts.

Are you talking about chicken, turkey, goose etc?......surely it depends on how you cook them.......although when you read stories in the Redtops about English players.....they seem to insist on roasting their birds!!;)

[kingdom hoop]

Hit the nail on the head there!:D:D

Cheers! Being a carpenter by trade one begins to appreciate the fine art of hitting nails on the heed. Though of course for our young pretenders over in England the art of nailing their head into their hit tends to occupy minds a bit more. :p

[tetsujin1979]

Liam Miller & Michael Doyle have both played in Denmark, O'Shea, Stack and Gibson in Belgium but all on loan from UK clubs.
What level did they play at in those leagues? I'm all for playing on the continent, but if the level of play is not much higher than the level they would play in England/Scotland/Ireland then there's not much point.
Miller and Doyle were in the second division in Denmark with Aarhus, think Stack was in the second division in Belgium. Not sure about O'Shea and Gibson, but they were with Royal Antwerp, United's feeder club. Diarmuid O'Carroll is currently on loan in the Belgium second division.
Was James McCarthy watched by clubs in the Primera Liga?

[SkStu]

Ronnie O'Brien, Time Magazines Man of the Century, played for Juventus. :)

[Dodge]

What level did they play at in those leagues? I'm all for playing on the continent, but if the level of play is not much higher than the level they would play in England/Scotland/Ireland then there's not much point.
Miller and Doyle were in the second division in Denmark with Aarhus, think Stack was in the second division in Belgium. Not sure about O'Shea and Gibson, but they were with Royal Antwerp, United's feeder club. Diarmuid O'Carroll is currently on loan in the Belgium second division.
The others were in Belgina 2nd division too. And no way in hell is that better than LOI standard...

[Woody]

Maybe it is that the Americans that go to continental Europe are often of German decent etc.

[Metrostars]

I just think that some young players might be better served by coaching methods in Holland or Germany as opposed to England.

[SkStu]

joking aside, i think its a pretty straightforward case of very few of our young players being technically good enough to interest big european clubs. Those that are will generally be snapped up by the big premiership/championship scouting network in force across the country before any Spanish/Italian/Dutch etc even get a chance to see them. And i dont think our stock, as a footballing nation which produces technically gifted players, is particularly high across the continent so scouting Ireland is not a high priority for european clubs. Sad but true.

[Sniffer]

joking aside, i think its a pretty straightforward case of very few of our young players being technically good enough to interest big european clubs. Those that are will generally be snapped up by the big premiership/championship scouting network in force across the country before any Spanish/Italian/Dutch etc even get a chance to see them. And i dont think our stock as a footballing nation, which produces technically gifted players, across the continent is particularly high so scouting Ireland is not a high priority for european clubs. Sad but true.

I'd see this as pretty accurate. We generally produce the hardworking but technically limited workhorse that the British game thrives upon. it's the same reason you don't see too many so called top British players plying their wares in Europe.

[ifk101]

Not at all.

Firstly it's money. British clubs pay best.

Secondly, Irish players don't want to play on the continent. Plenty of examples of this. Phil Babb is one that comes to mind and puts an end to this better technic suggestion.

[SkStu]

Not at all.

Firstly it's money. British clubs pay best.

Secondly, Irish players don't want to play on the continent. Plenty of examples of this. Phil Babb is one that comes to mind and puts an end to this better technic suggestion.

how exactly does Phil Babb put an end to the suggestion that our players are limited in their technique? Can you name one player in the senior squad or fringes with good enough technique to play in Spain or Italy? Possibly Duff of a few years ago. Keane, the most technically gifted player of his generation couldnt cut it in Italy no matter what spin is put on his time there.

It is a fact that we produce footballers in the british mould. Our players are both technically and tactically inferior to players from the more successful leagues. Is there any player coming up that is better than, say, Pique of Man Utd? I doubt it.

If we are at the same level as the other countries then why are we not qualifying and challenging for underage tournaments?

[eirebhoy]

Can you name one player in the senior squad or fringes with good enough technique to play in Spain or Italy?
Andy Reid. Nobody could convince me otherwise. Reid is a joy to watch when he has space to play. He's a little vulnerable when he gets put under pressure. Deep lying players get all the time in the world in Italy. In England he gets very little time on the ball.

[irishfan86]

I'd say players like Andy Reid, Duff, Ireland, McGeady and Keane to name a few would excel on the continent.

I wouldn't rip into Robbie- he was hardly there before he got shipped off. British clubs expect a settling period for foreign players, why should Robbie get off the plane and be scoring goals right from the get go?

[Billy Lord]

The bottom line surely is that Irish players are technically rubbish. Why would 'continental' clubs want them? Until Irish clubs start coaching rather than feeding, our best players - with notable exceptions - remain hod carriers who are best served as minions in England.
Sad but true.

[tetsujin1979]

Ken Earlie had an interesting point on NewsTalk tonight about the influx of non-English players to the Premiership. Since the clubs there make so much money, compared to the rest of Europe, they can afford to take on players from wherever they like, and pay them far more than any club in their home nation can. So Spain lose the likes of Fabregas and Pique to Arsenal and Man United, France have lost an amount of talent to Arsenal and Liverpool, and so on.
It could be as simple as the fact that the English clubs offer more money than any continental club ever will to Irish youngsters to come over is the reason that more of them don't play on the continent. I'm not saying that things like the lack of a language barrier don't come into the equation, but money could be the largest factor.
Money could also be the reason that so many of the players that come out of the English academy system stay in the English game, even Championship clubs can still afford to pay better than some Primera Liga and Serie A clubs. Alright, you're not going to win any medals, but you'll make a fantastic living out of it.
Could lack of ambition on the player's side also be a massive factor?

[irishfan86]

Ken Earlie had an interesting point on NewsTalk tonight about the influx of non-English players to the Premiership. Since the clubs there make so much money, compared to the rest of Europe, they can afford to take on players from wherever they like, and pay them far more than any club in their home nation can. So Spain lose the likes of Fabregas and Pique to Arsenal and Man United, France have lost an amount of talent to Arsenal and Liverpool, and so on.
It could be as simple as the fact that the English clubs offer more money than any continental club ever will to Irish youngsters to come over is the reason that more of them don't play on the continent. I'm not saying that things like the lack of a language barrier don't come into the equation, but money could be the largest factor.
Money could also be the reason that so many of the players that come out of the English academy system stay in the English game, even Championship clubs can still afford to pay better than some Primera Liga and Serie A clubs. Alright, you're not going to win any medals, but you'll make a fantastic living out of it.
Could lack of ambition on the player's side also be a massive factor?

Since when was an ambitious person in any career criticized for wanting to make more money?

[SkStu]

Ken Earlie had an interesting point on NewsTalk tonight about the influx of non-English players to the Premiership. Since the clubs there make so much money, compared to the rest of Europe, they can afford to take on players from wherever they like, and pay them far more than any club in their home nation can. So Spain lose the likes of Fabregas and Pique to Arsenal and Man United, France have lost an amount of talent to Arsenal and Liverpool, and so on.
It could be as simple as the fact that the English clubs offer more money than any continental club ever will to Irish youngsters to come over is the reason that more of them don't play on the continent. I'm not saying that things like the lack of a language barrier don't come into the equation, but money could be the largest factor.
Money could also be the reason that so many of the players that come out of the English academy system stay in the English game, even Championship clubs can still afford to pay better than some Primera Liga and Serie A clubs. Alright, you're not going to win any medals, but you'll make a fantastic living out of it.
Could lack of ambition on the player's side also be a massive factor?

the flaw in that argument tets is that we dont even hear of potential interest from mainland europe for our best young players. For your argument to be sound we would need it to be regularly said that "Man U and Barcelona both showed interest in X but he chose Man U for the cash."

What we do have is scandinavian clubs coming in occasionally for our players (Zayed on loan for example). I think thats our level to be honest. We simply dont produce players who will thrive on the continent. It really goes to show just how good a player Liam Brady was. Aldridge did it (but we didnt produce him). Roy could have made it. Robbie probably should have. Duff doesnt have the ambition. Thats it folks. In 30 years we have 2 players who made it at the top level in a country other than England. I wont count Kevin Moran with Sporting Goujons ;)

Fully agree with Billy Lords post by the way and its something ive mentioned here before but it was largely ignored. We need to coach our own players to play the game the european way before we will be able to attract interest from europe. I just wish that people could see the potential that we have to shape our own destiny as a footballing nation but are just too lazy/uninterested to realise.

[SkStu]

I'd say players like Andy Reid, Duff, Ireland, McGeady and Keane to name a few would excel on the continent.

Andy Reid? possibly
Duff? too late and hes not ambitious enough
Ireland? no way. doesnt even excel in the premiership.
McGeady? Highly unlikely, though i rate him highly.
Robbie Keane? Yes.

[ifk101]

It's money, money, money. And to lesser extent family, friends, culture.

British clubs pay best - ambition comes second.

If our players wanted to play on the continent they could do so.

[Billsthoughts]

I just wish that people could see the potential that we have to shape our own destiny as a footballing nation but are just too lazy/uninterested to realise.

good point.
I cant understand how nobody pulls Delaney up on this when he is blathering on about technical development plans. We basically export our players en masse to another country(with a totally alien culture as far as Im concerned) and leave it in the lap of the gods as to who does or doesnt make it.
We need to have at least 3 regional acadamies were we keep our own players and train them. We also need a reasonably strong domestic league to absorb these players so only the good ones go abroad.

[Stuttgart88]

Is our Technical Development Plan good enough? Would it be worthwhile paying foreign coaches to come here?

[dr_peepee]

It might be a bit late, and will take a number of years to bare fruit but I know that some of the under age coaches at the bigger schoolboy clubs are doing UEFA coaching badges under the like of Les Reed (failed charlton manager but apparently a coaching guru)...

[tetsujin1979]

Since when was an ambitious person in any career criticized for wanting to make more money?
My point was that instead of moving to, say Udinese (currently 5th in Serie A) and trying to win the Scudetto, or get into the Champions' League, player A gets an offer of a far bigger pay packet to help Middlesbrough not get relegated, and stays in England. To me, that signifies a lack of ambition.


the flaw in that argument tets is that we dont even hear of potential interest from mainland europe for our best young players. For your argument to be sound we would need it to be regularly said that "Man U and Barcelona both showed interest in X but he chose Man U for the cash."
Fair point, but that would mean that coaching of these players would have to start at a far younger age than the current U-16 setup. Also, normally player X usually comes up through the ranks from a very young age at clubs like Barcelona (Pique, Fabregas), Madrid (that Argentinian that just signed for Liverpool), i.e. massive clubs with the money to pay for a huge youth setup. I don't think any club in Ireland has the resources to set up anything on that scale. Should the onus to do something like that fall to the FAI?

[endabob1]

There have been a handful who have went Aldridge & Brady, were both established stars in Britain befoer they went and were successful.
Others have been on a career slide when they went Babb, Alan Mahon, Harte and never really pulled up any trees, others like Moran, McCarthy & especially Cascarino were at the end of their careers but seemed to do pretty well.
The real enigma is the likes of Keane and to a lesser degree Connolly Who went to big European clubs as bright young things but it never worked out. Keane has at least kept his career on track and is still playing at a very high level.
The only 2 others I can think of are Joe Kendrick & Ronnie O'Brien who did go but ended up coming back to smaller clubs and in Kendricks case he really is scraping the bottom now but O'Brien seems to be doing well in the US.

England & Scotland are easier options, I did read that Micah Richards went to Feynoord as a kid but came back to England because he was homesick whereas there were kids from Africa, US, Canada there who stuck it out because they didn't really have another option, it's pretty much the same for Irish kids.

[Metrostars]

Well I was meaning younger players, probably under 21. Ideally there should be acadamies in Ireland but my problem is that young irish only get exposed to english coaching methods.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Frank Stapleton played in France and Holland. John Byrne and Tony Cascarino played in France. Liam Buckley played in Belgium, Alan Campbell played in Spain.
Some ELOI clubs should negotiate loan deals for younger players in Poland. After all the Irish streets are full of Polish people , so they would feel right at home :D