Dublin Bus Strike

[Dodge]

But the lads at Luas do not do stuff like shut down the entire system because one of their son's gets caught fiddling the fare box as happened on the Dublin-Cork line
I thought you were complaining about the DART


That brings up another major issue in the CIE unions, incredible nepotism and inter-generational employment for the sons and grandsons of CIE employees and us the suckers in the private sector paying for this system of economic aparthide. Do us civil servants not count? Can't be nepotism in there and we pay as much tax as anyone. From my experience the nepotism thing is worst in big private sector companies like Banks etc

[Macy]

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.
I agree to some extent, but it's more that the members don't come looking until there's an issue that effects them. We immediately saw an increase of approx 25% when we started on an issue here. It's the members that dictate, not the other way round. Infact I'd go as far as to say in most cases it's the Officials talking down the members more than the other way round!

Union density has suffered as a result of the Unions buying into Partnership, at a local and national level (it is one of the conditions of the wage agreements). It has to be a two way street though - most disputes are when the management don't stick to agreements.


Bohs so Good - to repeat my earlier post, LUAS is a SIPTU closed shop. You know, the union that is the root of all evil according to your earlier posts.

[Dodge]

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

Union officials wages need to come from somewhere and therefore in their interest to keep membership as high as possible.

Again I can speak about my area but unions play a big part in wage negotiations etc. Plenty of support too for individual disputes with management

[Macy]

Still interesting that no one has been able to justify the Dublin Bus strike. A few people supporting but no reasons why... :confused:
Most have said that they don't know enough. To go back to last week, I'll say again, allowing the same time that the Dublin Bus route says it takes from Harristown to the City Centre would've been a start! 45 or 50 minutes, it's still Harristown to Eden Quay 60minutes as per the timetable! Also obvious enough Management were trying to play the system with minor route changes to give major terms and conditions changes rather than go through the proper procedures. i.e. Management trying to pull a fast one, which the Unions pulled them up on. I doubt they'll try the same again too soon, whereas if it'd been let through...


Brendan Ogle should be banned from representing people that work in critical public services.
People should have the right to be represented by who they want.

[OneRedArmy]

Certainly think so. Although even that may just be internet rubbish. "He who shouts loudest" and all that...

My previous union was notorious for inaction. Despite numerous meetings/compaints etc I think they only contacted management once (outside of normal partnership type meetings)How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

[BohsPartisan]

I am sorry but in 2007 this is complete bull**** and has been for about 6 years when the huge bucks started flowing in the public transport again.

I based my post on the latest figures.




I was a socialist until I started investigating the NBRU. I am not joking. I am 100% being honest here. I have been studying the CIE unions for a few years now and some of the stuff I came across turned me from a socialist to the capitalist. I am not joking.
Sounds like a massive wind up to me. The NBRU and SIPTU have little to do with Socialism, other than that Socialists advocate unionised workforces. We also oppose undemocratic union bureaucracies.


Like I said, bring on the Metro and more Luas lines so we can keep the working public transport in this country doing what public transport is mean to do. Serve the eh, "public."

Private companies exist to make a profit for their shareholders. The metro will be payed for out of taxpayers money, then a private company will come in and take the profits. Recently LUAS announced they would increase their fares at rush hour.
Private operators are only interested in lucrative profitable routes. The CIE companies will be then left to try and run the unprofitable but essential lesser used routes with less cash to fund them. WOrkers in CIE companies will be asked to take pay cuts so the state company can compete with yellow pack labour in the private firms. We already have two glaring examples of this in Irish Ferries and now Aer Lingus.
The LUAS is a success, not because is run by a private company but because demand exists for the service. It would be no different if it was run by a state company. However the workers might get paid a bit better.

[Dodge]

How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

In my sector its very clear cut(with HR being definied as management).

I agree with the thrust of your arguement though

[Dodge]

Unions are a joke. They'd call a strike for the slightest change in their work processes. They were a curse on this country for a long time and now its seems to be in vogue again!

It's ESB next possibly according to RTE News

Of course it's alway involves ex state-run companies - feckers wouldn't last a second in a job in the private sector!

Please read the thread before making stoopid comments.

[pete]

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

[pineapple stu]

And you think being squashed into a non air conditioned carriage like a sardine, with people jabbing you in the ribs at every turn (thats of course assuming that people can actually move their arms at this stage) with more and more people pilling on at each stop isn't the worst part of your day?
Have you ever driven during the rush hour? There's no contest.

[BohsPartisan]

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

We should have a Daft Post of the Month competition. :rolleyes:


The media is owned by Billionaires in the case of the private media and controlled by the pro-capitalist/neo-liberal state/government in the case of the national broadcaster. Journalists know which side their bread is buttered on and it clearly isn't the workers' side.

[Macy]

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.
Come off it pete, this has to be a wind up? Journalists have got pulled off stories in the last couple of years because they were being too balanced (not even pro union), at the same time as the main protagonists on the management side were given columns!

[Dodge]

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ

Without a doubt the worst arguement ever put forward in the current affairs forum

[Student Mullet]

Everyone thinks that the media is biased against them. It's because you tend to remember the articles disagreeing with you more than the ones agreeing.

[BohsPartisan]

Everyone thinks that the media is biased against them. It's because you tend to remember the articles disagreeing with you more than the ones agreeing.

I disagree. The media have always been anti-union and anti-worker.

[pete]

I see the start of competition for Dublin Bus with the Swords Express service & no public subsidy. They seem to be running service throughout the day too & not just cherry picking the peak times. I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.

Competition can only be good for the consumer as long as no private monopolies to go alongside the public one.

I checked the Dublin Bus website & takes approx 50 minutes to get from Harristown to City centre on regular bus service. I get that Dublin Bus workers would strike if they changed the colour of the buses.

Incidentally big changes in France in relation to opinions on unions. Government elected on mandate of change & apparently for first time possibly ever majority of people opposed the transport worker strike before it started. Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:

[Ceirtlis]

I see the start of competition for Dublin Bus with the Swords Express service & no public subsidy. They seem to be running service throughout the day too & not just cherry picking the peak times. I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.

Competition can only be good for the consumer as long as no private monopolies to go alongside the public one.

I checked the Dublin Bus website & takes approx 50 minutes to get from Harristown to City centre on regular bus service. I get that Dublin Bus workers would strike if they changed the colour of the buses.

Incidentally big changes in France in relation to opinions on unions. Government elected on mandate of change & apparently for first time possibly ever majority of people opposed the transport worker strike before it started. Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:


Theres a bus company called circle line that runs from Nutgrove to Celbridge as well, apparently its fairly good havent been on it myself though.

[Dodge]

Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:

Same in Guinness. Plenty or large private sector jobs with pension only require 30/35 years service

[pete]

Same in Guinness. Plenty or large private sector jobs with pension only require 30/35 years service

That is their choice. Private companies can pay people not to work if they like. I would love a job like that too but will you pay for it?

[Dodge]

That is their choice. Private companies can pay people not to work if they like. I would love a job like that too but will you pay for it?

WTF?!! Just go to France a become a train driver :rolleyes:

Are you just randomly spouting things you don't like now?

[pete]

WTF?!! Just go to France a become a train driver :rolleyes:

Are you just randomly spouting things you don't like now?

I mentioned in the context of unions protesting about issues no sane individual could defend. When the French public are opposing strikes it is a sign that their future is near an end.

[Schumi]

Theres a bus company called circle line that runs from Nutgrove to Celbridge as well, apparently its fairly good havent been on it myself though.
Seen them around, never seen more than two people on them though.

[Lim till i die]

When the French public are opposing strikes it is a sign that their future is near an end.

What, all the French people??

I think you'll see Sarkozy in the grave before the French left somehow pete.

I would imagine the majority (again how big?) protesting is down to the fact that after they drag on for awhile public transport strikes are an unholy nuisance

[BohsPartisan]

I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.



The private operator has exclusive rights to use the port tunnel. You get in in no time. Dublin bus were prevented by the government from using that route. It was actually kept idle since the opening of the tunnel just so it could be given to a private operator.
If this is competition - its rigged!

The belief that competition is good for the consumer is one that has been drummed into us by the media and tools like Eddie Hobbs for some time. Lets look at this objectively if we can for a minute. Where is the competition in the case of the example Pete gave. The private operator is given a plum route by the government. The state company is left with having to do a full circuit of Swords - by government dictat - before it even starts out towards the city centre. They are not in competition because they are not on the same route.
In England where all public transport is privatised there is no competition - it cannot exist in public transport! Take Liverpool as an example I am very familiar with. Stagecoach run some routes and Arriva others. If you live in Everton valley, you have to get a stagecoach bus. If you are out in Speke you have to get an Arriva one. Where's the competition?
Same applies for the rail service over there. I could go on and on.
Dublin Bus provides a public service. It does not exist to make a profit. It exists to move people around the city. It has to run some extremely unprofitable routes. With the severe lack of funding it gets it needs the profitable ones to stay afloat. This is nothing if not the good old fashioned Thatcherite method of sewing discontent in public services through deliberate underfunding and mismanagement so they can throw then out to their fat cat friends to make a killing.

Socialist piece on the outcome of the strike (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/11/22irelaa.html)

And on the situation in France (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2007/11/22franca.html)

[Macy]

The private operator has exclusive rights to use the port tunnel. You get in in no time. Dublin bus were prevented by the government from using that route. It was actually kept idle since the opening of the tunnel just so it could be given to a private operator.
If this is competition - its rigged!
Dublin Bus had actually started running buses through the port tunnel and were banned when it was found out. They were blocked by the same minister who launched the private service and saying how great it was that new routes were being provided by the private sector. :rolleyes:

Every privatisation and de-regulation has been a farce in this country. Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough. Markets have to be rigged to allow the private companies to make profits and enter the market, which means higher prices for consumers not lower prices. So essentially what is the point, bar misguided ideology?

[Student Mullet]

Dublin Bus had actually started running buses through the port tunnel and were banned when it was found out. They were blocked by the same minister who launched the private service and saying how great it was that new routes were being provided by the private sector. :rolleyes:

Every privatisation and de-regulation has been a farce in this country. Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough. Markets have to be rigged to allow the private companies to make profits and enter the market, which means higher prices for consumers not lower prices. So essentially what is the point, bar misguided ideology?
I think that's only half true. There are lots of industries where competition is perfectly sensible and others where it doesn't work.

[Macy]

I think that's only half true. There are lots of industries where competition is perfectly sensible and others where it doesn't work.
There's not really industries that are public left are there? What's left is our strategic infrastructure and key public services.

[OneRedArmy]

Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough.
Macy, you seem to be scathing of sweeping generalisations when used in the "unions are evil" context, but yet use them yourself in the context of privatisation, which reads akin to "big business is bad"!

The Aircoach service is a prime example of a successful private sector bus enterprise.

As Student Mullet says, there are cases where public sector provision suits (or possible public sector support of the private sector, eg through PSO) and cases where private sector is better. They can and do co-exist happily.

I do agree that privatisations have been mishandled by and large, but this doesn't necessarily make them a bad idea, it simply reflects on the clowns who handled the privatisation.

[Macy]

No, I'm genuinely not. I'm saying if the case is that competition is better then it should be able to do so without market interference.

Air Coach has been a success - would the Department of Transport allow another firm, let alone Dublin Bus compete on that route? Even where there are private operators there isn't competition - there is a private sector monopoly.

We want competition in the health insurance market - lets make VHI put up it's prices to bring companies in. We want competition in the electricity market - lets put up electricity prices to bring companies in. We want competition in the transport sector - let's restrict routes to one operator only. What benefit is for the actual consumer, rather than the owners of the privately help competition?

Even that supposed example of how competition works, Ryanair, was given a leg up by Government stopping Aer Lingus competing on the certain routes.

Government privatisations/ de-regulations should be all about the consumer. Unfortunately, they've all been ideologically driven not consumer driven.

[OneRedArmy]

I'd imagine the constraint to a private sector competitor to Aircoach is simply the lack of space at Dublin Airport.

In terms of health insurance, the equalisation payments that underpin community rating (everyone paying the same) create the problem. A true market-based system would do away with community rating but as we are still pretending we have a public health system in Ireland this is apparently unacceptable.

In general terms, the approach to privatisation is one of opening up markets slowly to competition by regulating entry to the sector (a la most of the examples you have provided) versus a big bang type approach, which whilst probably beneficial in the long-term for the customer (Darwinian evolution, only the strongest survive and the price is what the market can bear) creates market disruption and the potential for hugely varying prices and levels of service in the short-term.

As for your airline example, whilst that may have been true in the past, not sure that type of government interference is occuring now?

[Ceirtlis]

No, I'm genuinely not. I'm saying if the case is that competition is better then it should be able to do so without market interference.

Air Coach has been a success - would the Department of Transport allow another firm, let alone Dublin Bus compete on that route? Even where there are private operators there isn't competition - there is a private sector monopoly.


They may be city buses but Dublin Bus operates services to Dublin Airport.

[Dodge]

They may be city buses but Dublin Bus operates services to Dublin Airport.

Not from southside hotels. But I'd agree its a similar service.

[Macy]

I'd imagine the constraint to a private sector competitor to Aircoach is simply the lack of space at Dublin Airport.

No, the Department of Transport issues licences for specific routes. If you went looking for a licence for the same route you would be denied the licence. Space at Dublin Airport isn't the issue.


In terms of health insurance, the equalisation payments that underpin community rating (everyone paying the same) create the problem. A true market-based system would do away with community rating but as we are still pretending we have a public health system in Ireland this is apparently unacceptable.

BUPA/Quinn and VIVAS knew the system when they entered the market. What would be the benefit to the consumer if community rating went? No payments have been made, and instead BUPA used the exemption rules to make huge profits and then cut and run. At the same time, Government is making VHI build up a reserve, which means higher prices, which means that the competitors can charge more and make bigger profits whilst still just undercutting VHI.


In general terms, the approach to privatisation is one of opening up markets slowly to competition by regulating entry to the sector (a la most of the examples you have provided) versus a big bang type approach, which whilst probably beneficial in the long-term for the customer (Darwinian evolution, only the strongest survive and the price is what the market can bear) creates market disruption and the potential for hugely varying prices and levels of service in the short-term.
But the regulation is all about ensuring profits not about restricting entry.

Has the service in eircom kept up with European norms since privatisation? How does our broadband compare to European standards in coverage and speed. How many private shareholders have profitted from the multiple sales? How has the consumer benefitted?


As for your airline example, whilst that may have been true in the past, not sure that type of government interference is occuring now?
Would they be in such a dominant position, owning 25% of their main competitor if it hadn't happened and they'd actually had to just compete straight?


They may be city buses but Dublin Bus operates services to Dublin Airport.
On the exact same route?

[pete]

Dublin Bus has run an "Express" service from City centre to the airport for years. If this was reliable there would have been no room for Air Coach to operate. I believe Dublin Bus now use the port tunnel for the airport route?

I can already mentioned that a private monopoly (eircom was close to that) just as bad as public monopoly. In the end as a customer we just see the price we charged & the service we receive. All things being equal why should I care where the money goes. Everyone works for profit or wages. The alternative to profit is 100% state run economy which I would be surprised if could find 1,000 people in Ireland to support.

Without competition Aer Lingus was run for the employees & it cost a months wages to fly to London but sure it was great as they not making a profit.. :rolleyes:

Sarkovzy was elected by the French to implement these reforms so obviously a majority approve. I can't find the link but I read 64% opposed the strikes before they started which apparently had not happened before - usually opposition for strikes grows as strike prolongs.

[BohsPartisan]

Without competition Aer Lingus was run for the employees & it cost a months wages to fly to London but sure it was great as they not making a profit.. :rolleyes:



Aer Lingus workers took pay freezes when they were asked to save the company. They worked longer hours when they were asked to save the company.
What thanks did Aer lingus workers get? A kick in the teeth, their company virtually given away, Mannion on mega bucks telling them to sign an agreement to never take industrial action, explain why they shouldn't or face suspension and told to take 5 grand a year less. Competition sure is beautiful isn't it?
How about Irish Ferries? Where did privatisation lead that company and its workers? Yellow pack jobs, a sh1tty service compared to what it used to be and registered overseas to escape Irish legal requirements.
Is competition good for the consumer?
How did it work in the construction industry? Did it provide affordable good quality housing to working people?
We all know what happened in housing was the opposite. A state construction company could build and sell or rent a house for a fraction of what these privateers charge.
Moreover consumers are not a separate group to workers. They are by and large one and the same. So even if prices go down due to "competition", so do wages as each company puts pressure on its workforce to take a smaller cut of what it produces in order to "compete".

On Sarkozy and what the electorate agree or don't agree with - The main opposition - the so called Partí Socialist said they would carry out these "reforms" (read attacks) if they were elected. So it wasn't a choice between a workers party and a bosses party but between two bosses parties. A majority of the population in a poll earlier this week said they support the public service strike. The number supporting the train drivers was lower because as Macy said, people get ****ed off when they get delayed going to and coming from work.

[Block G Raptor]

What's wrong with the DART?

The Dorsh is loike SO full of Skobies, Like were talking Skobie-Wan Kenobi Here

(sorry Ive just been reading Ross O'Carroll-Kelly)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ok bit of background. In the 1920's there were lots of private bus companies in Dublin. They were so keen on the bottom line that the buses operating were bloody dangerous.
They would race each other to reach bus stops to get passengers and caused lots of accidents. They also were not interested in so called '' unviable '' routes leaving large swathes of the city without a service. And a lot of them were experiencing financial trouble. This was why the first part of CIE was set up to put safe vehicles on the streets for the purposes of public transport as the private operators at the time were not doing so. And also to provide a real public service in areas which might not be all that profitable. Around the same time the privately owned rail companies were starting to come into a situation where they needed to invest in infrastructure and rolling stock.
A combination of dividends to share holders and generous payments to company executives had seen profits frittered away and nothing left to invest in rolling stock. They were bought out by the State and that was how CIE was formed.

CIE had to be formed in 1941 at a time when the choice was State involvement or no services because the old trains were breaking down. There was the Great Northern Railway , The Great Southern Railway and the Dublin South And Eastern.

The Great Northern Railway terminated at what we now call Connolly Station And the Dublin South and Eastern terminated in Pearse. They didn't join up so there was no rail service for years in Dublin crossing the River until around 1950.

[pete]

Aer Lingus workers took pay freezes when they were asked to save the company. They worked longer hours when they were asked to save the company.
What thanks did Aer lingus workers get? A kick in the teeth, their company virtually given away,.

The shareholders of Aer Lingus were the State. It was not the employees company although obvious was run like that for a long time.

It might be interesting for historical purposes but see no relevance in 1920s bus services to today. By any standards Dublin a poorly run company. When the buses turn up they seem fairly ok but it the scheduling that is the problem. I fail to see how they are unable to set schedules to accurate times especially along QBCs. I would love to know where the non-viable routes in Dublin City are.

I think chances of another strike over this idiotic issue are likely in the next 6 months.

[Macy]

It might be interesting for historical purposes but see no relevance in 1920s bus services to today. By any standards Dublin a poorly run company. When the buses turn up they seem fairly ok but it the scheduling that is the problem. I fail to see how they are unable to set schedules to accurate times especially along QBCs. I would love to know where the non-viable routes in Dublin City are.
But there's no buses that are totally QBC - it's inevitable that it's going to be hard when there's so many bottlenecks. For example, the 46a flys down the stillorgan dualler but gets knackered once it starts hitting the estates beyond foxrock. No reason why there can't be some tracking system - I suppose making it vandal proof is the problem.

I can think of a few non-viable routes off the top of my head - a lot of the orbital routes I'd harzard a guess would struggle as they take so long because no scope for bus lanes. Plus a hell of a lot of the non-peak buses on what would be profitable routes at peak times.

[CollegeTillIDie]

The Dorsh is loike SO full of Skobies, Like were talking Skobie-Wan Kenobi Here

(sorry Ive just been reading Ross O'Carroll-Kelly)

And given that some of the original founders of your club were graduates of Trinners ( hence your club colours) not said without a hint of irony :D

[BohsPartisan]

The shareholders of Aer Lingus were the State. It was not the employees company although obvious was run like that for a long time.


No need to pall back on pedantry, you know what I meant.