Lest we forget - Rememberance Sunday.

[rebelarmyexile]

They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them,
Nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun
And in the morning
We will remember them.
-- Laurence Binyon (1869-1943)



Lets us hope that biggotry against remembering fallen Irishmen can finally leave this island and all rememberance events be it either Republican or otherwise be respected and honoured.

Lest we forget.

[jebus]

Jesus I'd forgotten about that.....

[Dodge]

Lets us hope that biggotry against remembering fallen Irishmen can finally leave this island and all rememberance events be it either Republican or otherwise be respected and honoured.

Or lets not try to glorify anything that killed millions of innocent people. German soldiers were just doing their job too

[GavinZac]

The past is the past. Learn and move on, I say. No disrespect to the dead soldiers here, but im sure they would be much better off remembered as people, by those who knew them, rather than by random generation Xers in a grandiose celebration of man's greatest folly.

[eamo1]

And when he gets to Heaven,
to Saint Peter he will tell,
one more soldier reporting sir,
ive served my time in hell.
R.I.P

[onceahoop]

"If any question why we died.
Tell them, because our fathers lied".

Rudyard Kipling.

[OwlsFan]

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

8 October 1917 - March, 1918

[osarusan]

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
All that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour,
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."


Hand on heart, who knows which poem this is from, without looking it up?

[Lionel Ritchie]

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
All that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour,
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."


Hand on heart, who knows which poem this is from, without looking it up?


I dunno -but Eamo lifted his from an ad for Playstation. :)

[cheifo]

I watched that documentrary last night recalling the rememberance day bomb in Enniskillen.Moving stuff.According to a lot of the contributors the subsequent reaction led to many within the Republican movement to start assesing their methods.The Gordon Wilson interview(his daughter Marie was killed) afterwards in which he stated he bore no ill will to anybody is one of the most moving things I have seen.

[Docboy]

Yea he was a proper man and is rightly linked with the eventual acceptance by the Republican movement that violence wasn't the way forward.

[OwlsFan]

Just finished reading a book on 5 out of 8 brothers in a family who were lost during WW1, and one of the survivors was a semi-invalid. The mother would receive the notifications by telegram and you can imagine what she must have gone through. I have also been to the Somme and Verdun and there are very moving places to visit.

[dcfcsteve]

I have no issue with Remembrance Sunday at all. A lot of Irish men fought and died in WW1, and in numerous campaigns for the British Army.

My grandad was shot and badly injured in WW1, for example - brought home and sat out the rest of the war working in telecommunications. My Great-grandad fought in the Boer War at the end of the 19th Century.

But the problem I have is with the British legion and Poppy Day. My problem is this - it is governments that send soldiers to war, and usually for political purposes more so than ones of national defense. The only conflict Britain has been involved in for the last 100+ years that held any vague threat of Britain being attacked was WW2, and that threat was never clear and never transpired.

Theerfore - as it is governments who send people to die and get injured in wars, and usually for political purposes, then they and they alone should cover the bill for caring for those soldiers and their families during and after the wars.

That is what I despise about Poppy Day. There is an expectation upon people to support it, and you're unpatriotic in Britain if you don't (note how many politicians etc won't be seen dead without a poppy). Yet flogging Poppies to look after soldiers who can't p!ss of their own accord any more because they were sent to Iraq or Afghanistan by the t!ts who curently run the UK lets those very t!ts completely and utterly off the hook for the fall-out form their flawed actions. It lets the government wipe its hand of its responsibilities.

Governments start/get involved in wars. So let them carry the can after those wars are over. If money is colected for any victims of war then it should be for the hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders - the 'colateral damage' - who had no choice about the fate that befell them and receive no support in return.

[Macy]

Would agree that too often Remembrance Day is tied directly to the Poppy Appeal. Not sure I really agree with that there should be no role to play for them in the care of former soldiers. You could make equal claims that there should be no need for MacMillan Cancer Support or other Cancer charities, or homeless charities - they're all doing work that should be done/ funded by Government.

My main problem with the Poppy Appeal is their continued failure to provide funds to the Merchant fleet charities. More seamen were lost in the Merchant fleet than were lost by the Royal Navy, in what was a protected occupation.

[dcfcsteve]

You could make equal claims that there should be no need for MacMillan Cancer Support or other Cancer charities, or homeless charities - they're all doing work that should be done/ funded by Government.



Doesn't work as a counter-example at all I'm afraid.

The difference being that a government's decisions don't directly give people cancer, and particularly not for political purposes.

[Macy]

The difference being that a government's decisions don't directly give people cancer, and particularly not for political purposes.
None of those in Iraq or Afghanistan are conscripts though - there must be some expectation that they'll see action and the inevitable consequences for some of them.

[bennocelt]

didnt john snow (isnt he the fella off C4 news?) refuse to wear a poppy, cause he was told he had to wear one so he refused?

[Dodge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6134906.stm

[osarusan]

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
All that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour,
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."


Hand on heart, who knows which poem this is from, without looking it up?

Stanza 9 from "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" by Thomas Gray.





Ignoramuses.

[dcfcsteve]

None of those in Iraq or Afghanistan are conscripts though - there must be some expectation that they'll see action and the inevitable consequences for some of them.

Which is my point. Government sends them out to war knowing what will happen to a certain percentage of them. It then leaves their longer term care to charities.

I don't know anything that governments do that directly cause the types if impacts you mentioned (cancer, homeessness etc). Even licensiing the sale of cigraettes at-best only leads indirectly to cancer. A smoker has the choice of whether or not to smoke. A soldier does not have any choice on where they get sent and whether or not they die. Government effectively makes those decisions for them.

It was for purely political reasons that the decision to go to Iraq and Afghanistan was taken. Once that decision is made, soldiers have no choice but to go or desert. Soldiers themselves may enter their occuipation understanding there is a risk they will die or get injured, but they also do so expecting that government will not put them at risk unnecessarily. The opposite has happened in Iraq, and those who've died there would still be alive today if that political decision hadn't been taken.

[Dodge]

Soldiers themselves may enter their occuipation understanding there is a risk they will die or get injured, but they also do so expecting that government will not put them at risk unnecessarily
Surely the actions of governments the world over would indicate that nearly every war is avoidable. So if you join the army, you must have a fair indication that you will be put in a warzone.

[dcfcsteve]

Surely the actions of governments the world over would indicate that nearly every war is avoidable. So if you join the army, you must have a fair indication that you will be put in a warzone.

Every war is arguably avoidable - but that doesn't mean that each side had an equal say in getting involved.

Japan was the instigator behind the Sino-Japanese war of 1937-1945 fro example. It was Jaopan's choice to start that war. China had the choice of dedfending itself, or of being over-run by thr Japanese who coveted their resources and land. That was therefore a political war caused by the Japanese and forced upon the Chinese. You can't fault the Chiense government for choosing to defend its people and territory from naked aggression, and therefore their decision to go to war. You can, however, fault Imperial Japan for yet again starting a war unecessarily.

Likeiwse - the US and Britain must carry the blame for the invasion of Iraq. It was conducted for political pruposes under false pretenses, they'd been warned in advance that their ostensible grounds were unfounded and that they'd only make things worse, and the turn of events has shown all that to be the case. You can blame Sada Hussein for many things, but sending his troops to fight the invasion is not one of them.

So whilst death and ionjury is an occupational hazard that soldiers accept may befall them, the covenant with governments that soldiers have is that they won't be placed in such danger unnecessarily. Starting wars for narrow political reasons is an example of that covennat being broken. Defending your nation from attack is not. So whilst every war is avoidable for the aggressor(s), it is not for those who are the subject of that aggression.

[dortie]

Found it slightly ironic although not surprising to see a photograph of an ex mayor of Derry (SDLP) at a rememberance Sunday event at the war memorial, funny i never seen her attend any easter commemorations to honour Irelands dead, not even the 'official free state' events that honour those of 1916 etc.

[micls]

Found it slightly ironic although not surprising to see a photograph of an ex mayor of Derry (SDLP) at a rememberance Sunday event at the war memorial, funny i never seen her attend any easter commemorations to honour Irelands dead, not even the 'official free state' events that honour those of 1916 etc.
WAR IS UNAVOIDABLE, ITS HUMAN NATURE, AND NO OTHER REASON, EACH OF US IN EVERY COUNTRY DO IT COS WE WANT 2 HON. NO OTHER REASON.

[Blanchflower]

The only conflict Britain has been involved in for the last 100+ years that held any vague threat of Britain being attacked was WW2, and that threat was never clear and never transpired.

You've never heard of the Battle of Britain?:eek:

[dcfcsteve]

You've never heard of the Battle of Britain?:eek:

By attack, I meant a serious effort to invade/occupy the country.

The BoB may well have been a pre-cursor to such a land-sea assault, but one never transpired.

[sligobhoy67]

I always thought that the Poppy Appeal and Rememberance Sunday was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.

So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.

Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.

[micls]

WAR IS UNAVOIDABLE, ITS HUMAN NATURE, AND NO OTHER REASON, EACH OF US IN EVERY COUNTRY DO IT COS WE WANT 2 HON. NO OTHER REASON.

What the hell? I didn't post this :confused:

[Lionel Ritchie]

I always thought that the Poppy Appeal and Rememberance Sunday was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.

So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.

Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.

That sort of one-size-fits-all logic is defective. For example -If, like myself, you're from a Catholic background you'll be familiar with "all souls day/feast of all souls" (it's either Nov 1st or 2nd). Now if we're to assume Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot and any other despot who's passed off this mortal coil had a soul ...well then, by your defective logic you shouldn't pray for ANY souls on all souls day for fear some of the goodies make their way into the wrong hands no?

All Saints day becomes a serious no-no. Some of the Saints were right bast@rds. St. Christopher hacked his parents up in a jealous rage as they lay in bed in the spare room. Apparently he thought it was his wife playing an away match...

[Lim till i die]

What the hell? I didn't post this :confused:

Must have been your shouty, ill-educated twin :)

[dcfcsteve]

I always thought that the Poppy Appeal and Rememberance Sunday was in rememberance of those who died in all conflicts that the British were involved in.

So in essence you would be page homage to the Black and Tans, the Parachute regiment etc.

Not something I would particularly care to do if I am being really honest.

More Irish people died in the service of the British army in the space of 60secs in many WW1 battles, than British soldiers ever died in Ireland, so if that's your main objection then your logic is valid but confused.

[bennocelt]

More Irish people died in the service of the British army in the space of 60secs in many WW1 battles, than British soldiers ever died in Ireland, so if that's your main objection then your logic is valid but confused.

Yeah but as an irish man you are hardly going to wear a poppy, are you? but knowing your posts you probably do!!

the irish were very good at fighting other peoples wars

[Blanchflower]

More Irish people died in the service of the British army in the space of 60secs in many WW1 battles, than British soldiers ever died in Ireland, so if that's your main objection then your logic is valid but confused.

Good point - he's looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

[dcfcsteve]

Yeah but as an irish man you are hardly going to wear a poppy, are you? but knowing your posts you probably do!!

I have never worn a poppy, but would be delighted for you to show me these posts that suggest I would ?

I suspect you may be some time.....:rolleyes:


the irish were very good at fighting other peoples wars

And at happily pocketing the Queen's shilling in return. It's not just about "fighting other people's war" - as if their responsibility is somehow abdicated, just because Ireland didn't start the war...

[GavinZac]

What the hell? I didn't post this :confused:

"hon"? sounds like your mom saw you logged in and had a go :D

[bennocelt]

I have never worn a poppy, but would be delighted for you to show me these posts that suggest I would ?


And at happily pocketing the Queen's shilling in return. It's not just about "fighting other people's war" - as if their responsibility is somehow abdicated, just because Ireland didn't start the war...

that kind of proves my point!:rolleyes:

[CollegeTillIDie]

And at happily pocketing the Queen's shilling in return. It's not just about "fighting other people's war" - as if their responsibility is somehow abdicated, just because Ireland didn't start the war...

While not arguing with the broad thrust of your earlier points in this post I feel it's only right to point out two things 1) The Irish economy was down the toilet under British rule, sometimes taking the Queen's shilling was the only way to feed the family 2) Ireland was not a sovereign state before 1921, therefore any wars fought by Irish soldiers were not fought on behalf of the Irish nation and therefore we have a spotless record as a State of not having started any sort of a belligerent War since our independence. We fought an economic war with the English in the 1930's but nobody was shot during it by either side.

[Mr_Parker]

That sort of one-size-fits-all logic is defective. For example -If, like myself, you're from a Catholic background you'll be familiar with "all souls day/feast of all souls" (it's either Nov 1st or 2nd). Now if we're to assume Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot and any other despot who's passed off this mortal coil had a soul ...well then, by your defective logic you shouldn't pray for ANY souls on all souls day for fear some of the goodies make their way into the wrong hands no?

All Saints day becomes a serious no-no. Some of the Saints were right bast@rds. St. Christopher hacked his parents up in a jealous rage as they lay in bed in the spare room. Apparently he thought it was his wife playing an away match...

Apart from the fact the Catholic religion teaches that you should pray for the sinners too ie "All souls," it is not comparable in regards to the British Legion Poppy Appeal. Monies rasied from this are used for all strands of army personnel including those contentious ones already mentioned.

[rebelarmyexile]

Apart from the fact the Catholic religion teaches that you should pray for the sinners too ie "All souls," it is not comparable in regards to the British Legion Poppy Appeal. Monies rasied from this are used for all strands of army personnel including those contentious ones already mentioned.


As a point of information all monies raised by the Republic of Ireland Branch of the Legion stay within the Republic's Branch and go directly to help veterans and their families residing in the Republic. Likewise for the Northern Ireland Branch, English, Scottish & Commonwealth.

Therefore, if one buys a poppy on Grafton Street or Patrick Street in Cork they can be assured the money stays in the Republic so safe from so-called 'contentious' recipients.

[holidaysong]

As a point of information all monies raised by the Republic of Ireland Branch of the Legion stay within the Republic's Branch and go directly to help veterans and their families residing in the Republic. Likewise for the Northern Ireland Branch, English, Scottish & Commonwealth.

Therefore, if one buys a poppy on Grafton Street or Patrick Street in Cork they can be assured the money stays in the Republic so safe from so-called 'contentious' recipients.

I have never seen poppies for sale in the Republic of Ireland, does it happen?

[Lionel Ritchie]

I have never seen poppies for sale in the Republic of Ireland, does it happen?

Of course it does.

[cheifo]

I watched Timewatch about D-day landings on Omaha beach on Sunday night.Lordy what a slaughter.I will never complain about the stresses of modern life again.

[sligobhoy67]

Of course it does.

Church of Ireland churches sell them

[Saint Tom]

I watched Timewatch about D-day landings on Omaha beach on Sunday night.Lordy what a slaughter.I will never complain about the stresses of modern life again.
Being half Dub, half Scouse and both sides an Irishman, I fully agree. Great grandfather fought (father's side) in Boland's Mill during the Rising, Grandfather (on mother's) who saw the sea red with blood at Dunkerque while not agreeing with it at all. I hope none of us witness it in our lifetimes.