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View Full Version : Big Jack or Slick Mick?



Gaz
07/06/2001, 5:18 PM
Nice debate going on in another thread about this, so I thought I'd give it it's own thread. Do you long for the glory days of Jack Charlton when it was all about the result, or do you prefer the more attractive football that Mick brought to the team? Is Mick the right man for the job? Should Jack have gone? Should Jack ever have been manager in the first place?

Answers on a postcard, please!

James
07/06/2001, 5:24 PM
..between the 2 i'd go for mick as some of the time ( definately not last night) they try to play good football, as oppose to hoofing it into the corners or to big Quinner or Cas.

But i won't like either as manager.

i say give Gaz's cat a chance

Gaz
07/06/2001, 5:28 PM
James, you're spot on - I've used my God like Administrator powers to modify the poll.

dahamsta
07/06/2001, 5:37 PM
[Adam censors himself because it is in fact he who is the moron.]

adam

Neil
07/06/2001, 6:01 PM
Mick without a doubt. Good football and a majority of Irish players. Good riddance to hoofing, Eddie McGoldrick (and the likes) and Big Geordie Jack.

Gaz
07/06/2001, 6:13 PM
As posted elsewhere:

I guarantee that if you asked your average Irish fan to name their top three experiences, none of them would be under Mick. For example, my three:

1) Italy, WC 94 (Ray!!)
2) England, Euro 88 (Go on Ray!!!)
3) N. Ireland, Qualifiers for WC 94

(Outside of that, there was the Ireland v England game in Italia 90 as well)

So you see, despite the fact that back in the day we played "hoof it and hope", we got results and a rather creditable ranking of 6th in the World. And those are the things we remember. I doubt that in years to come you'll hear oul fellas in the pub saying things like "Remember the time we nearly beat Holland in 2000? Ah sure we fell apart, but God we passed the ball well for a while, so we did."

rebel yell
07/06/2001, 11:21 PM
I voted for Charlton as he was a WC cup winner himself and made us hard to beat. He awakened football by success at senior level in this country which made the young teams come through. Note our success at U-16. U 18 level etc. But Charlton
should never have axed Liam Tuohy! That was a disgrace! But also Big Jack hated making substitutions and would not be as good today,
and only one automatically qualify now. I'd love Spider O'leary
as part-time manager!:cool: :cool:

joe
08/06/2001, 9:31 AM
I'd have to go with Mick, though it's a close call between those three.

When you look at the players Charlton had I think our 'achievements' in tournaments should have been expected, but because we had never done anything before people's expectations were low.

Éanna
08/06/2001, 10:48 AM
Never liked either of them, so I voted for Gaz's cat. Charlton had a clue, but his team was appalling to watch, McCarthy's team CAN be good to watch, but he doesn't have a clue. Brian Kerr for Ireland!

Daniel McD
08/06/2001, 2:12 PM
Why Brian Kerr Eanna, because he's Irish ...

Kerr's teams for under 18 level have been full of guys who you wouldn't class as Irish and I wouldn't either

Very significant fact. Aside from Kilbane, who really is Irish and turned down England when he was 15 and made it clear he was Irish, every single Irish player that started against Portugal last Saturday was actually born and raised in Ireland etc etc. ..

Given, Carr, Harte, Dunne, Staunton, Kinsella, Keane, Kilbane, Kelly, Keane and Quinn ..

Think I'm right there ...

Macy
08/06/2001, 2:47 PM
Yeah - the issue for me was never where someone was born. Kilbane knew what nationality he was - no career decision, and just because he was born in England doesn't matter.
Manager's - Charlton just for the memorable results, if not the memorable matches - any football lover must find it hard to accept the long ball game.

Éanna
08/06/2001, 4:37 PM
Because I think he's a good manager, and I don't think the step up would change that. I already said elsewhere I don't mind where the manager is from, it's the players that interest me. I take your point about the line-up, yeah they were all Irish. BUT Mick still likes to grovel before the Butlers and Morrisions in the press. Anyways, I'm fed up of this debate to be honest, so I'll finish my piece by saying that I will never support Mick McCarthy as Ireland manager- but I will continue to support the team

Gaz
08/06/2001, 5:02 PM
When it comes right down to it, I couldn't give a feck about who's managing, or what the performance is like. In fact although I'd love it if every single player was born, raised and came through the ranks here, I really don't mind the odd Granny catcher in the ranks either - case in point, Matt Holland (from Bury - and I never had an issue with Houghton, Townsend and the like). When it comes down to it, all I care about is coming away from the matches with a result, and up until now those results haven't been coming.

Yeah, we can beat the Estonians and the Cypriots (sp?) of the world, but when it comes to the crunch matches against decent opposition like Holland, Portugal, Croatia, we start mumbling about draws being a good result. There was a time under Jack Charlton where we'd run out against those teams and expect a win - and that's the thing that annoys me most about the current state of the Irish team. We as fans are starting to slide back into being comfortable with being an average international team, with little or no expectations.

The Good Son
08/06/2001, 5:35 PM
Éanna did you ever consider moving to Oldham you'd fit in nicely with the racially pure 16% who voted for BNP.

James
08/06/2001, 5:36 PM
in those days when we would go out expecting a win we had world class players...moran/mcgrath/brady/whelan etc and we also had less players that were below international standard..I mean staunton or dunne wouldnt have got within a sniff of the team back then..as they are playing now.

that is why we expect less. we are happy with a draw because we know the team is not as good.
as for being happy about it well i'm not so sure either. I'm not happy about the fact that connolly was getting a run out and that stan and dunne are playing but you also have to look at the situation with a degree of realism. who else is out there?

that said i still reckon we can beat the dutch and qualify no matter how bad the team.

Btw Gaz will your cat be looking for an assistant cause my hamster aint doing much at the mo.

james

Éanna
09/06/2001, 12:25 PM
So now it's racist to want irish people to be Irish?! I'm all in favour of every form of equality, and totally against any discrimination, but some people are taking this too far! The comment re the skinhead nazi scum in Oldham is bloody low, those are the very people who have threatened me on numerous occasions for wearing a Che Guevara top with a communist flag on it- hardly the actions of a skinhead! Next time you want to accuse someone of something, particularly something that VILE, would you try and get some basis for your comments!:mad:

The Good Son
09/06/2001, 4:00 PM
Well you've already stated elsewhere,"I don't care if a guys name is Goran Abdul Mandela or what he looks like, as long as he was born here", so you are saying unless you are born here you aren't Irish.
Che Guevara on your "right-on man" top would've qualified for Ireland (he'd a mother or grandmother from Kerry I think) but under your thinking he wouldn't have been welcome to play for Ireland.
You've also said about MickMcCarthy "he's not 110% Irish- he's English, he was born in England" now Mc Carthy might not be even related to a football manager but one thing he isn't is English.
So I'll admit I was wrong about the BNP thing ,they don't have a problem with English people born in other countries so you'd probably be a bit too extreme for them:)

soccerhead
18/06/2001, 11:55 PM
Jack's days were fantastic, however, McCarthy, to his credit has turned his spell around to fine tune his men into one of the most impressive sides around. His biggest test off all will be to see if he can miracoulasly crawl into The World Cup Finals. It is unfair on Mick to compare the two as Mc Carthy may have yet to produce his finest days. At the moment Charlton is thed main man but Mick should overhaul him.

Éanna
19/06/2001, 1:51 AM
Ok, answer me this- has McCarthy ever lived in Ireland for a sustained period of time? I doubt it. Irish and all as he may feel, he was born and reared in England, however Irish his upbringing was. And please spare me the BNP crap. If anyone said that to my face, I'd string them up.I don't condone any kind of racism, I have no problem with refugees/immigration- I welcome it. All I said was that Irish means being born in Ireland! It's a bloody fact. Get a grip!

The Good Son
19/06/2001, 11:31 AM
Dear Auntie Eanna(official decider of nationalities),
Thank you for clearing up what being Irish exactly is,but now I'm worried as I had the misfortune of living in London for a year out of my 33 in the late 80's for economic reasons does this mean I'm not Irish? Also I've a friend who was born in England came over here until he was 7 or 8 went to live in Wales for the next 10 years or so and has been living in Cork since( over 10 years) is he Irish,English,Welsh or just a mongrel?I know another person who can only trace his Irishness back 3 generations and suspects there may be a bit of German before that, is he Irish?What exact"sustained period of time" does one need to be in Ireland to consider themselves Irish?Please clear up these queries for me as soon as possible.Once again I'll admit I was wrong with the BNP slur, it's obvious from your preference for stringing up you'd be more comfortable with The KKK.
Love and peace, The Good Son.

James
19/06/2001, 11:33 AM
that is a non sensical arguement


All I said was that Irish means being born in Ireland

So If I go to the States for example to work for a few years as alot of Irish people did and still do, and then come home with a wife and a kid, then that kid is what, American?
then years later the rest of your children are born.
you'd have what then in your imediate family..

2 Parents, an American and a couple of irish kids!!!
:confused: :confused:

Grow up Éanna

being Irish is more then just being born here.
Now lets get back to phootball, thats why we're here isnt it?

PS would somebody please vote for gaz's cat, i cant believe McCarthy is beating him.

joe
19/06/2001, 11:35 AM
yeah, but who'd marry you james? :p

James
19/06/2001, 11:45 AM
to make the argument more believable we'll use Joe as the example...
:D :D
the point is still the same though now it is developed into a joke

joe
19/06/2001, 11:50 AM
i take it back, you can go to america, get married and do the whole family thinkg - i'll stay young, free and single, thank you very much!

Gaz
19/06/2001, 2:12 PM
This coming from a man living in America - if I had a child over here, the child would be an American. In fact, one of the things that gets on my tits the most about this place is the amount of people who come up to me (after telling me that they love my accent) and tell me that they're Irish too. (Oh really? Whereabouts?) "Oh actually I was born in Detroit, but my great great grandfather was from 'Don-nay-gal'" :mad:

Both my parents were English, and they watched a hell of a lot more BBC than RTE - does that make me a Brit? (Watch what you say in response to this!) :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The bottom line is that you are from where you're from, pure and simple. Born is Afghanistan? Then your an Afghan. Born in Ireland? Then you're Irish. If you're not born here, I can't see how you can claim to be from here. End of story.

dahamsta
19/06/2001, 2:31 PM
In fact, one of the things that gets on my tits the most about this place is the amount of people who come up to me (after telling me that they love my accent) and tell me that they're Irish too. (Oh really? Whereabouts?) "Oh actually I was born in Detroit, but my great great grandfather was from 'Don-nay-gal'" :mad:

Having to deal with yanks a lot of the time - and pseudo yanks like Gaz - I get this an awful lot and it drives me insane...

Person on mailing list: "Oh, I'm Irish too - my great-great-great-gransfathers pig was exported from Ireland in nineteen-oh-splash - so I know exactly what you mean!"

Adam: "No you don't, you dolt, you don't know anything. Which means you're american."

HUR HUR

adam

The Good Son
19/06/2001, 3:05 PM
Gaz if you had a child born in America then of course you and the childs mother would have a right to decide what nationality is put on its passport. But when that child is old enough to decide for itself it could then decide that it wants an Irish passport or if its mother was British for example, a British passport, as is it right .I personally couldn't care less where anyone is from but I believe in a persons right to consider themselves a citizen of any nation that they are legally entitled to(this does not include the buying of passports by people investing in pet food factories belonging to Taoisaigh).Nationality can be a lot more than where you are born.Now loud Americans whose great-great-great grandfathers came from the land of Darby O'Gill are a different matter altogether.

Éanna
19/06/2001, 6:52 PM
Originally posted by Gaz

The bottom line is that you are from where you're from, pure and simple. Born is Afghanistan? Then your an Afghan. Born in Ireland? Then you're Irish. If you're not born here, I can't see how you can claim to be from here. End of story.

Spot on! I can't believe the amout of crap being spouted here! I never said anything about Irish-Americans or Irish-English people or Irish-Spanish people; I have no problem with someone who's parents are from whatever country taking up citizenship.
Btw, Adam, considering your flaming policy, should The Good Son not have got some kind of slap on the wrist for alleging my membership of 2 despicable and appalling organisations!
I'm not posting on this thread again, because it's not worth the hassle of getting unwarranted abuse.

The Good Son
19/06/2001, 7:38 PM
Lighten up boy ,you know and everybody else knows I didn't seriously consider you to be a member of either organisation.I'm just using extreme examples to try, obviously not very well, to get my point across.Anyway everyone knows it's the Aryan Nation you're in.I've no problem ending my contribution to this thread either as it's reached the point of you childishly looking for a slap on the wrist for me. Believe it or not if I was banned for life from this or any other board it wouldn't bother me in the slightest .

Macy
19/06/2001, 7:51 PM
I was born in england, my brother was born in england. We've never considered ourselves anything but Irish. I would add that doesn't mean to say that I think anybody who qualifies to play for Ireland should. I went to school with plenty of people with a similar family background who don't consider themselves Irish. It's not about choice, it's about what you feel, and without getting too silly about it where your heart is. That's why the likes of Kilbane and Kelly get my vote, whereas the likes of Matt 'god save the queen' holland and Clinton 'I'm english/ jamacan/ irish delete as applicable' don't. Too many generations have been forced to emigrate for people who's families were lucky enough to be able to afford to stay in Ireland to get on their high horse. Never forget your, or this country's, history - it wasn't always like it is now in these celtic tiger days......

dahamsta
19/06/2001, 8:09 PM
Btw, Adam, considering your flaming policy, should The Good Son not have got some kind of slap on the wrist for alleging my membership of 2 despicable and appalling organisations!

Sure, as the moderator of this forum... oops, hang on now...

No offense Éanna, but it's not up to me, it's up to Joe. I'm trying to set up a fair hierarchy here from the off, so the moderator is who you talk to if you have a problem. If Joe can't sort it out, he comes to me. (Actually, in this case he doesn't, because Joe is an admin too, so his decision is final.)

In my opinion - and it is only my opinion - I think it may have been a bit OTT, but you should take it with a pinch of salt.

adam

Gaz
19/06/2001, 8:23 PM
Sorry (and after this, I'm bowing out of this thread as well) but I have to maintain my stance that you can't claim to be FROM somewhere when you're not born there. If (God forbid) I have a child here in America, then although he or she will of course have an Irish passport, they will be American by birth, pure and simple.

My sister was born in England as well. Yes, she spent a fair chunk of her life in Ireland, and yes she has ties here, and considers Ireland her home, but at the end of the day she's English. I can't see why people think that one rule should apply for her, when the affore mentioned Yanks aren't allowed to claim their heritage?

It's funny that someone mentioned that they went to school with many people who were born away from Ireland but never considered themselves anything but - I went to school with a guy who was born in England while his parents were on holiday, and considered himself 100% English, even to the extent where he's show up in school with an England jersey on (and promptly got seven kinds of crap kicked out of him).

Nobody's opinion on this is going to change. I was born in Ireland, and therefore I'm a Mick. Live in America, but will never be American. I have English heritage, but will never be English. The bottom line is that you can choose what you want, but at the end of the day you are what you are.

Gaz
19/06/2001, 8:25 PM
And with my mighty administrator powers, my cat just won the vote. I'm renaming him GW Bush....

dahamsta
19/06/2001, 8:28 PM
You should call him Al Gore, who is after all the real US president.

adam

dahamsta
19/06/2001, 8:29 PM
C'mere, shouldn't you be working? On, uh, what is it again... ooh... this site???

adam

James
19/06/2001, 8:34 PM
all right thats a strike each for the pair of you
Ye should know better...this is blatently off the topic and should be carried on elsewhere :D :D :D or PM each other

:D :D

Feck it I'm off to pack for Latvia
Adam if I dont make it back I have a PM ready to be sent to you by my solicitor in which I will pass on my Moderators hat and my numerous postings to a lucky punter out there:cool: :cool:

Its latvia baby

joe
19/06/2001, 8:39 PM
right looks like everyone's ending there contribution to this thread so there's no need for any slaps on any wrists - does that get me out of having to do any work?

Dr.Nick
25/06/2001, 3:05 PM
you have to remember that when Jack Charlton was manager second place in a group almost certainly garaunteed u automatic qualification for a tournament(apart from euro '96).How many groups did we win under Jack? none.In that sense Mick has been unlucky.The team has played much better football under Mick with less talented players than Jack had...so under the circumstances I believe Mick has done a better job. By the way, COME ON DE TOWN(Longford that is)

Pauro 76
26/06/2001, 2:05 PM
I agree, Mick has done wonders on limited players and resources, we've no Paul McGrath, Brady or Lawrenson, but Mick gets the best of the players we've got. Weve a backbone of a squad yet weve still a good chance of making it.

TheJamaicanP.M.
15/12/2004, 7:56 PM
Just found this thread from way back. Mick was definitely my favourite. In fact, I think Brian Kerr will be doing well to live up to the achievements of Slick Mick.

Cowboy
15/12/2004, 8:53 PM
but at the end of the day you are what you are.

You are what you choose to be. I think you have a narrow geographically inclined view as to what it is to be Irish and to be honest I resent your view that becuse I was born outside ireland in a town which has a county team in the all ireland championship, I am not Irish.

Sorry for off topic but back on topic:

I never really enjoyed the brand of football that Charlton esposed but I've always wondered would any of the subsequent success have happened without him ? I mean a whole generation of players grew up only having seen Ireland do well whereas guys of my generation had to watch us get cheated by dodgy refs.

tricky_colour
16/12/2004, 12:32 AM
Maybe Brian Kerr's name should be added to the list of options?

It better to wait untill the qualifiers have finished as we will
have a better idea then.

1MickCollins
16/12/2004, 12:57 AM
I gave my vote to Big Jack as he was the first manager to take us to the European Championships and two World Cups. He has given me many more great memories and moments than Mick McMcCarthy. He was the first to really give us self belief as a soccer nation.

Mick, and Brian Kerr even more so, are benefiting from the larger pool of players to choose from as so many kids became interested in the game because of Charlton's success. Charlton had some great players early on but never had the strength in depth we have now.

Sure you can criticize Jack for his style of play, treatment of players etc but hey he did the business.

onenilgameover
16/12/2004, 1:06 AM
ohhh Gaz's cat goes into a sizable lead..this is a turn up for the books!

eirebhoy
16/12/2004, 12:56 PM
Why was this thread dragged up from the dead? :confused:

Plastic Paddy
22/12/2004, 2:24 PM
Why was this thread dragged up from the dead?

Two words: Patrick J. :eek:


Why not?Ireland's 2 successful managers to date;Jack by a country mile.......

Don't you start... :rolleyes: ;)

Having a good time over there in New Zealand? Are you actually a Hobbit in disguise? :D

:D PP

gspain
22/12/2004, 3:07 PM
Jack definitely for me.

Brought a belief that was sadly lacking to the team. OK football wasn't pretty - not defensive really, quite positive but not attractive however after years of moral victories we were getting real results away from home. Often forgotten too are some superb displays of football - Hampden 87, Hannover 88.

Mick was a far better player than he ever got credit for although a far worse manager then his press too. Shocking for WC98 - Ian Harte at centre half, Gary Kelly up front, Roy Keane sweeper at home to Iceland and then when needing a goal he brings on Alan Moore not John Aldridge. His decision making in Skopje cost us a place in Euro2000. Did a marvellous job to get uys to Japan and really grew into the job and I wish him all the best with sunderland.

Emmet
27/12/2004, 8:07 PM
and then when needing a goal he brings on Alan Moore not John Aldridge.

Didn't Aldridge mention that in his autobiography? Aldridge was sitting there on the bench expecting to come on and afterwards when he asked McCarthy why (given that he'd been scoring goals by the bucket-load for Tranmere) he didn't bring him on, Mick said something like "Oh, I didn't think of that"(!) Aldridge later says in the book that McCarthy had denied the conversation afterwards ever took place - but if it did it's a bit of a shocker on Mick's part really.