Manager Advice

[Jayk69]

Hey all,

I had one of these threads set up already but it turned into a pharse cause of unwanted bickering on it. I'm looking for advice so please don't go into the whole arguing on this thread do it else where!!

I've taken over managing a senior division side. Good ballers but no structure. I play a 3-5-2 formation which works really well but midfield needs improvement. Any advice out there on drills. Im looking to set up a good solid passing team, ball on ground, pass and move etc. Fluent football but as im only a newbie i need help. My back three are rock solid and two frontmen are fantastic, pace and skill but my mid is all over the shop. My tactics are a midfielder presses forward and falls into the gap behind front two and defensive one drops back into defense makelle still, the other is a holding midfielder.

Again im not on this for people to shut this thread down im lookin for advice so keep from arguing!!!!


Thanks

[progress]

from my experience 3-5-2 is probably one of the hardest formations to play if playing just at a junior level.but if played well can be very effective.most teams will play 4-4-2 because its safe and everybody in the team should be comfortable with their role.The main problem usually is that you wont get the balance right in midfield and end up leaving your back 3 exploited down the flanks.you really need the wide men in your team to be the fittest players at the club in order for the ground to be covered and to make the formation work.The problem with the 3 in the middle usually culminates in the player you select to be the attacking midfielder,what usually happens imo is that they turn into a third striker and actaully nullify the affect of 3 central midfielders,effectively making it a 4 in midfield with two overworked wide men.how do you rectify the problem, just keep the 3 midfielders central and try to over power the opposition by closing down the available space.also the back 3 should stick rigidly to their positions so as not to get dragged into corners,therefore creatiing space,this is why i mentioned the fitness of the wingbacks as being very important.the strikers dont neccessarily have to be quick with this formation as their aerial ability may be just as important because theorethically you should on average get more space down the flanks. i would not stick rigidly to that formation either as every game is differant and formations are there to be utilised if done right.weather conditions,opponents formation,opponents weaknesses etc should determine what formation you choose.hope that helped.thats how i see it anyway

[Jayk69]

Hey thanks for that Progress, i appreciate all the advice i can get. the flat centre mid is probably what i'll try for but i hope it doesn't take the edge from us pushing forward. our two wide men are defo the fittest on the field, they'd run all day. good feet too which is great. the back three as i said are extremely solid but i think without the more attacking approach we may go too deep and be more defensive than i'd be hoping for. wold you know any drills i can use for training with the midfield??? or anyone else readingg this?? help is always greatly received!!!!!

[galwayhoop]

the problem with introducing a different formaion to adult teams is you probably don't have more than 2 evenings a week with them. you are (more than likely) trying to play with a formation that is alien to most as has been said before most players probably have only really played 4-4-2.

you will do well to find a suitable drill, more than likely what you need to do is 'set-out' your starting 11 on a full size pitch and walk them through a 'phase of play'. for example what their individual role is when, say the opposition is attacking through their right winger. you can then tell them where each of them should be. a picture paints a thousand words etc...

then get them to do an attacking scenario, again showing them their own roles in a certain situation.

perhaps you will only get a chance to do one or 2 scenarios per week but eventually it will set in imo.

do the phase of play with no opposition at first and then introduce maybe 4 or 6 opposition players, but again step in and stop the play immediately when you see something wrong or a player in an incorrect position.

it is vital that you are 100% sure of what you are doing yourself so you can get the players doing it as you want. make sure you are totally on top of it first and then spread the gospel!!!

[galwayhoop]

on a side note, i'm not too convinced with how you are asking your central midfield players to play. usually in a 3-5-2 the 'extra' man in midfield either sits behind the other 2 or in front of them.

from the sounds of it you are looking for one behind the front 2, one holding, and one deep. this sounds very linear to me and will not give you the full benefit of the extra man. my advise would be to have a flat 4 in midfield with the 5th man sitting in behind that or as a free man in front. your other 2 central midfielders can be given specific instructions but leave their positions as central mid. it is way less confusing this way.

you sound like you are trying to achieve too much with a deep,holding and attacking player.

[Jock MIB]

You could try 4-5-1, as this formation is very adaptable in match situations... it allows a more stable defence and with two fit wingers they can use there pace alot better in attacking positions... rather than tracking back all time.. so when defending you team drops into the 4-5-1 and when attacking it can easily turn into 4-3-3 with the wingers pushing up. You would then need a Striker who can hold the ball up very well and is strong.

[Innishvilla]

You could try 4-5-1, as this formation is very adaptable in match situations... it allows a more stable defence and with two fit wingers they can use there pace alot better in attacking positions... rather than tracking back all time.. so when defending you team drops into the 4-5-1 and when attacking it can easily turn into 4-3-3 with the wingers pushing up. You would then need a Striker who can hold the ball up very well and is strong.

Last season we were flying in the league creating chances galore and solid at the back. Notice I said chances, we were not finishing off the opportunities, not getting enough player in the box to get on the end of what we created. We changed to 4-3-3 in an attempt to get more guys into the box, but as Jock says that will very easily be 4-5-1 when not in possession as long as your front 3 don't think they are playing with Barca... The three in the middle of the park have to be well up for a long hard day. It is a tough job. but if your back 4 can hold a high line it reduces the area that your central 3 have to cover... Plus when working well it is a system that scares the s*it out of opposition full-backs...

I suppose it isn't until you stop and think about it you realize how every player on the pitch has an important role in whatever tactics are chosen...

[Jayk69]

thanks for all the advice people, greatly recieved. we're leakin an obsurd amount of goals tho, 15 in 4 games. but at the same time we've scored 10. i know where the problem is coming from, my two wing backs, although know their job are getting caught out. and the two front men are not defendiing from the front, closing down and splitting the defence to counteract them gettting to play ball at the back. I like the 3-5-2 formation but i may need a re-think. i played a defensive midfield, one tucking in front of the back three and he is weel capable of the position as are the three bcks. i need help with my mid, the wingers need fitness but is the best way of doing it just keep them running in training??? we have a great squad but concede in the last 15 mins every match!!! please help!!!!

[Jock MIB]

thanks for all the advice people, greatly recieved. we're leakin an obsurd amount of goals tho, 15 in 4 games. but at the same time we've scored 10. i know where the problem is coming from, my two wing backs, although know their job are getting caught out. and the two front men are not defendiing from the front, closing down and splitting the defence to counteract them gettting to play ball at the back. I like the 3-5-2 formation but i may need a re-think. i played a defensive midfield, one tucking in front of the back three and he is weel capable of the position as are the three bcks. i need help with my mid, the wingers need fitness but is the best way of doing it just keep them running in training??? we have a great squad but concede in the last 15 mins every match!!! please help!!!!

you have answered your own question,. your leaking goals sort out the defence i'm assuming the goals aren't coming from attacks straight down the middle... start 4 - 5 -1 with holding midfielder and then you can let your wingers free to turn it into a 4 - 3 - 3 when attacking. i think 3 5 2 never works in junior soccer, you can't have a fit player like in the pro ranks, who are training every day , to for ninety minutes run up and down the field,, i think your putting to much pressure on the wingers to perform.

[ASR27]

I've played 3-5-2 fairly regularly over last four seasons with underage and junior female teams. Its vital they understand the roles of each player and each department on the pitch- the roles as you see them.i find it works well against superior opposition even if its not always the prettiest example of the beautiful game.

Defence
I am explicit that the 3 in defence are 3 CentreBacks. They play as a unit in a tight formation in front of goal. One should be good in air, one needs to be fast to sweep behind and one a good communicator to control that line.Their job is to Defend, delay and disrupt. NOT to make tackles or break up attacks on the wing.

Midfield
Central players (3) these are the engine. Preferably two spoilers (think Gattuso or Keano) and one Fantasista (play maker - can be older player who may no longer have the legs to be part of a two man midfield but can get the foot on the ball and deliver passes). With three players you flood midfield and a majority of play is in this central third at lower level amateur soccer.

Midfield
Wingers (2) it must be impressed on these players that they have a range of approximately 60 yards (box to box) and 15 yards (touchline to infield). Their single most important role is defending against opposition winger.

Attack
Strikers (2) try to get hungry players in here as they'll tend to take to heart that philosophy of defending from the front.

Drills
Defensive drills are most important to show how to track back facing a player to delay and slow down the attack and by positioning your body to force them to bad foot or away from centre of goal. this delay gives time for your midfield to come back and make the steal. theres 1000s of drills you can find through google, on FA sites etc

Midfield drills are about ball recovery and quick dispatch. think of making tackles and shooting to goals in a corner 25 or more yards away.

winger drills. lots of ladder work and short sprints at the beginning of training to improve the explosiveness. when one winger is defending the other one must press forward as a third attacker. this balances the team defensively into a fourman back line and either (a) keeps the opposition winger occupied or (b) gives the goalkeeper/defenders a great 3 man target to aim for on a quick counterattack.

attacking drills.
switching plays means your strikers need to constantly look for space in corners to run into - good drills for explaining the importance of space are playing small sided games (3v3, 4v4) of olympic handball games or Gaelic handpassing and placing goals in corners.

As regards fitness. - yeah overload the wingers at the beginning of training. but dont work on sprinting after that it actually has a negative impact. slow long stretches are vital after your initial warmups too(before sprints), i see so many teams counting to ten or fifteen on a calf or hamstring stretch, pointless. 45 second stretches or don't bother at all. sprints in soccer need to be 5 to 15 yards. wingers should work up to 30 yards. stamina drills can be useful for the whole team as they have an element of competition (who wants to be last behind the goalie?). eg. whole team walk the width of pitch, run back together and repeat maybe 8 times - brilliant for stamina & teamwork and players will feel like they really worked out afterwards.

Sorry thats a bit long winded! hope you get some ideas re 3-5-2 from it?!

[Jayk69]

you have answered your own question,. your leaking goals sort out the defence i'm assuming the goals aren't coming from attacks straight down the middle... start 4 - 5 -1 with holding midfielder and then you can let your wingers free to turn it into a 4 - 3 - 3 when attacking. i think 3 5 2 never works in junior soccer, you can't have a fit player like in the pro ranks, who are training every day , to for ninety minutes run up and down the field,, i think your putting to much pressure on the wingers to perform.

thanks jock, the only thing i can say is that i don't know if i have the ability in the squad for the two full backs. the 3-5-2 worked at the back because of the back three. i've never seen such a solid back three. they really are the business. i understand what your saying tho bout the two wingers turning into 4-3-3 on attack but i don't know if they are capable of scoring. they have fantastic feet but lack the killer instinct. we lose it in the midfield and i know that especially the wings. although great at trackin back pushing forward seems to be a problem. any other formations out there that may work?

[galwayhoop]

thanks jock, the only thing i can say is that i don't know if i have the ability in the squad for the two full backs. the 3-5-2 worked at the back because of the back three. i've never seen such a solid back three. they really are the business. i understand what your saying tho bout the two wingers turning into 4-3-3 on attack but i don't know if they are capable of scoring. they have fantastic feet but lack the killer instinct. we lose it in the midfield and i know that especially the wings. although great at trackin back pushing forward seems to be a problem. any other formations out there that may work?

personally i think that too much emphasis is put on formations. most players are very very comfortable with 4-4-2 so any other one needs to be really worked on a lot. ASR27 has gone into detail about the 3-5-2 in his post, but as he said himself it is very much about defending.

i recokon you should see what players you have and then get a formation to suit them, as you can't just go out and 'buy' players to suit your favourite formation. if your back 3 is top notch and your 2 wingbacks/wingers are doing very good defensively but not enough going forward then you need your central players, or at least one of them, to start making the goals for you.
the fact you are conceding so many goals late on is probably down to asking your wide men to do too much for the game and they are tiring late on.

perhaps you need to ditch one of the 3 centre halfs altogether in favour of a more orthodoox back four. when taking over a new team the first thing you have to do is make it hard for other teams to score against you. put your best players at the back and work forward. it mightn't be pretty but it is very effective.

maybe try 2 deep siting midfielders with 2 wingers and a playmaker behind a lone striker up front. a 4-2-3-1 formation. if ye are losing games this should at least stem the tide a bit and don't be afraid to win games 1-0!!! in this formation it is vital that either your wingers or your advanced midfielder are capable of supporting your front man, by having 4 at the back the wingers defensive duties will be reduced massively.

[ASR27]

Galwayhoop has a point about too much emphasis on formations at lower levels. 442 is simple. like you i was accommodating my players strengths by setting up a 352 (3 good backs) and the rest of the team(s) seemed to pick it up quickly and understand it. my wingers tend not to be technically good enough to be attacking fullbacks so, again, it suits.

It would probably be worth your while doing a Kickstart course with FAI - takes a day & a half and will give you confidence in setting up trainings ~ although its aimed primarily at under 10s coaching etc it does give you the basic structure on how to organise a session and how to explain the theme of the session to players which translates to any agegroup's training.

some useful sites for you to adopt or adapt drills etc
http://www.finesoccer.com/finesoccer_drills_archive.htm
and some excellent videos (some are real old school like the Coerver ones and Arrigo Sacchi training Italy prior to WCup USA'94)
http://www.totalvid.com

[alansmithccfc]

442 is without a doubt the easiest to play in this level.
If you have a team of really hard working players who are decent ball players then 352 could work.


Play 3 centre backs, make sure they keep tight in a good line, you'll need a leader in the line to keep them together. One way of dirupting this (for people playing against the system is to play the balls over the wingers,this will drag out one of the defenders leaving alot of space in the box

Midfield then the options are endless.
The most effective in my opinion is to put a player ahead of the defence with two men out wide(more effective if they can defend as well as they attack, plus they have to more running to cover as there are no right or left backs. Then you should put one man behind the attackers that leaves you with one midfielder left. If your under pressure put him as a second defensive midfielder if not leave him spray the ball around from the middle. If the opposition are playing 442 you can then Have one of the central midfielders free at all times i.e the one who can spray the ball around- the great player who is now over the hill. Then you have two strikers.

451 is more effective though as your still stabel at the bakc and can easily turn into 433 if you need a goal. The lone striker will haev to be superb at holding up the ball though.

All different formations fromt he usual one you play will take a few games to get used to anyway which is difficult when you only train twice a week at most

[Jayk69]

Galwayhoop has a point about too much emphasis on formations at lower levels. 442 is simple. like you i was accommodating my players strengths by setting up a 352 (3 good backs) and the rest of the team(s) seemed to pick it up quickly and understand it. my wingers tend not to be technically good enough to be attacking fullbacks so, again, it suits.

It would probably be worth your while doing a Kickstart course with FAI - takes a day & a half and will give you confidence in setting up trainings ~ although its aimed primarily at under 10s coaching etc it does give you the basic structure on how to organise a session and how to explain the theme of the session to players which translates to any agegroup's training.

some useful sites for you to adopt or adapt drills etc
http://www.finesoccer.com/finesoccer_drills_archive.htm
and some excellent videos (some are real old school like the Coerver ones and Arrigo Sacchi training Italy prior to WCup USA'94)
http://www.totalvid.com


Thanks for that, the drills that ya gave me are very useful!!! things are starting to fall into shape and i feel that with a bit of patience the results will come thick and fast. I may try the 4-5-1 formation ans see how it gets on from there. we normally always go 2-0 up with bout a half hour to go so maybe changing into this formation at that point may be a turning point for us but i'll try it sunday! Keep the advice coming!!!!

[ASR27]

Saturday night My 3-5-2 was a disaster. one of my centrebacks was simply not interested and neither winger was marking opposite number . the other two centrebacks couldn't decide who should pick up the main threat as she was 'running the line'. we were 2-0 by halftime but could have been worse.

changed it to 442, got the dodge centreback up front and subbed one of the wingers bringing the other one back to full back. the ship steadied and although we conceded to a spectacular goal late on we held our own for the rest of the game.


...if only we played on paper!

[Jock MIB]

Saturday night My 3-5-2 was a disaster. one of my centrebacks was simply not interested and neither winger was marking opposite number . the other two centrebacks couldn't decide who should pick up the main threat as she was 'running the line'. we were 2-0 by halftime but could have been worse.

changed it to 442, got the dodge centreback up front and subbed one of the wingers bringing the other one back to full back. the ship steadied and although we conceded to a spectacular goal late on we held our own for the rest of the game.


...if only we played on paper!

Moral of story is as the famous england manager MIKE BASSETT would say

" tomorrow we are playing 4 ------ 4 ----- F*****g 2 :D "

[Jayk69]

ASR27,

Finally never thought it would come but we actually had shape on sunday morning. spayed the ball around and passed simply for the first time. everything clicked into place apart from up front. The two strikers just don't wanna work or haven't the ability for senior sunday football. We seriously lack fire power up front. we went 1-0 down with ten minutes to go, took my powerful centre half out and put him up front with an agressive running attacking midfielder, put my other forward into left wing and hey presto we won 2-1 with a goal disallowed cause their player triped over his boot-lace, poor fella hope he didn't break a nail!! My powerful centre back worked perfect and now i know what im missing up front!! my attacking mid came on and powered the two goals away!! we then shut up shop with 6 mins to go, went to a 4-5-1 and that worked fantastic!! Thanks to everyone but keep checking i will need advice again. Appreciate everything!

[Jayk69]

so your trying to tell everyone here that with ten mins to go you brought on a centre midfielder who then scored 2 goals in 4 mins.this on top of a disallowed goal:mad:..who is this guy can we sign him up for the irish team..:p

no the centre back got the disallowed goal and the attacking midfielder for the time he was on the park was unbelievable. absolutely smashed home the two goals, one a chest down and volley from 20yards out, top corner screamer and the other a fantasic one two on the right wing and drilled home from a very tight angle on the right side just inside the 18yard box!!! as far as the irish teamis concerned, my granny on a zimmer frame could do a better job and score more goals than Robbie keane, she'd probably pass more too!!!

[galwayhoop]

as far as the irish teamis concerned, my granny on a zimmer frame could do a better job and score more goals than Robbie keane, she'd probably pass more too!!!

ahh but would she be as good with the frailing arms!!!!

[Jayk69]

Can I have your opinion Please!!

Well before i make a complete tit of myself and play this formation, i was hoping for some good feed back! i've tweaked the 4-5-1 formation and maybe too much.


Goalkeeper


R/c/b C/b L/c/b



C/b

R/w/b c/m c/m L/w/b


A/m



St



My aim for this is that the c/b will drop into the back four when defending allowing the r/c/b to push over and the c/b claim his position across the back four so a flat back is the result. and act as support for midfield when attacking. The two midfielders both man mark in the centre and the attcking is left to roam up in the gap. When defending, the attacking mid drops into the centre roll allowing 5 across midfield. Will this formation work!!! Need feed back before Sunday! Please

[ASR27]

STOP! you're trying too hard.

ive tried this twice - asking a centrehalf to sit behind the centre mids or drop deeper as it applies. both times disaster. it works fine on paper - ie it works fine as you understand it but your players dont have all week to think about it. you need to stick to one or two formations and your players need to understand them well before the game. never thrust something like this on them.

remember when you play/played the game? you need to have one or two basic agendas to follow - any more than that makes it very difficult especially when you get tired.

my strong advice would be to avoid this tinkering. stick with your 442 or your 352 - whichever your players are best with. if the results are going against you just persevere until they get comfortable with it and youll be surprised how much the team will change by the end of the season.


seriously.

as Seán Purcell said about football - its a simple game played by simple people...keep it simple and do those things well, thats how to win.

let us know how it goes :)

[Innishvilla]

I'd agree with ASR27, don't try to over-complicate things. The longer players play in a system the more comfy/assured they will be.

I played for years in back 4 where 1 centre back was the sweeper (me). When we got a new manager who preferred us to mark if marking needed to be done, I'll tell you it took a good few games to get into the habit of not dropping off...

Another small item of advice we always before a match agreed an outlet for the back 4/midfielders... i.e. if a guy is in trouble, hasn't time to look up and has to just get the ball the hell out of there at least the striker/winger knows where he is planning on trying to put it. The ball won't necessarily be to feet but at least there'll be someone there to compete for the ball and allow the defense and midfield to re-organize.

[Jayk69]

Nothing like a good bit of honesty, im lookin for a system that gives me basically a flat back four or defense that can hold up to wingers, 5 across the midfield and good striking abilities. i wanna attack but need solid defending. think im lookin too much into this!

3-5-2, great system but over run on the wings, thus conceding stupid goals

4-4-2, lose the match in the centre of the park every time

4-5-1, thought was the answer but simple thing, i dont have a front man that can play by himself, no strength up front

4-3-3 get caught on the counter on both flanks.

3-1-4-1-1 makes sense on paper but went belly up for ya's

Any ideas out there!!!!!

[galwayhoop]

try out a 4-4-1-1

flat back 4.

5 in midfield when not in possession, 4 when you have possession.
att mid either drops into cm when you don't have the ball or pushes up behind front man when you have it.
the important thing is you only need to give the att mid and cf special instructions. the other 8 outfield players play a normal 4 man line. you should be able to get a foothold in midfield but will need your striker to play most of the game with his back to goal. therefore the att mid and wingers will need to work hard to get up in support.

best of luck.

PS-for god sake stop worrying so much about formations. that 3-1-4-1-1 is really a 3-6-1 and sounds crazy!!!!!

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ok the best experiemental scheme I have ever seen is 5-3-2. What you need is the following : Two Stopper Centre-half and 1 Libero ball playing central defender.

You have two wings backs. Three midfielders including 1 winger the side he plays on depends on which foot he kicks with and two strikers.

so it looks something like this


Gk

Libero
Right footed CB Left footed CB

Right wing back left wing back

Midfield Midfield Midfield

Striker Striker

But basically it is down to what players you have in your squad. If you have a lot of centre backs as the team I am thinking of did, and not many midfielders, this system is ideal. When you attack the libero slots in to midfield and covers the defence. The wing backs over lap and provide width going forward. When you defend the libero slots back into defence the wing backs funnel back giving you 5 defenders at least ideally you will have some midfielders funnelling back too. This gives you big numbers defending and attacking and prevents you being overrun.

Your system should be based on what material you have in your squad.

[Jayk69]

hey evryone, taking this thread out of the ashes, in trouble again in regards to training drills. looking for pass and move drills that get the team working but enjoying it too. anyone know any drills that can be run in an indoor training hall??

[EAFC_rdfl]

P1, P5
P2

P3
P4we do this. P1 passes into 2 who kills ball and heads off towards 3 while P1 runs onto the ball (P5 stays at the base). he passes to P3 who lays it off for P2 (running) who then completes the move by passing into P4. then P4 starts off another cycle, sort of in reverse, thats why P5 is needed
we do it spread over the length of an astro pitch (not quite full size) so should work indoor

[ASR27]

http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~dgraham/manual/manual.pdf (http://www.ucs.mun.ca/%7Edgraham/manual/manual.pdf)

Thats a pretty comprehensive coaches guide - you should find things there to occupy any team