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Billsthoughts
19/10/2007, 8:50 AM
Interesting article in todays indo....(quoted in full)


By Daniel McDonnell
Friday October 19 2007


Before the crunch qualifier with Slovakia in Bratislava in early September, the Irish players left their dressing room and climbed a flight of stairs where they were greeted by FAI security man Tony Hickey.


He was the last person they encountered before entering the playing surface and he exchanged warm handshakes with Robbie Keane and Shay Given and some of the other older players. There was even a bear hug for Kevin Kilbane.

Yet from some of the fresher faced members of the panel there was no reaction for Hickey. No handshake, no hug. A minor detail, perhaps, but symptomatic of the divide between old and new in this current squad, the unspoken reality of the Steve Staunton era.

This is no particular reflection on Hickey, who is popular with the players that have soldiered with him throughout the years, through the era of Mick McCarthy and Saipan, the World Cup and all the extras that went with it. Understandably, bonds were formed.

That is the past, however. And it was to the past that Staunton went when he was appointed as manager of Ireland. Hickey and Mick Byrne, cast out by Brian Kerr, were immediately restored to the mix. Famously, Byrne's return was kept secret until he leapt into Damien Duff's bedroom, waking him up with a hail of kisses. The good old days, indeed.

This was the contrast to the DVD addled days of Brian Kerr, where the players were bored to the point of mutinous. Stan, the old dressing room general, was bringing the fun back.

During the summer trip to the United States, he elaborated on how the general mood had been improved. "Well it's the little things", said Staunton, "The camaraderie, whether it be a quiz, a singsong, you name it. A keep ball session. The yellow jersey. Different things. They just add to it, and they've all grown to like it."

The spin was that the dressing room is now a happy place, where good vibrations are the order of the day. Kerr's dying embers were characterised by a flaccid, passionless display against Switzerland. Aside from the late flurry of activity, Wednesday's performance was equally devoid of this spirit and togetherness that was supposed to pull us through. It was eerily similar to that miserable night in Lansdowne against the Swiss.

And that's why the myth that everything is rosy in the Irish camp needs to be extinguished. For it is patently not the case. No pre-match huddle can disguise it. You don't have to scratch too far beneath the surface for a clear example of this, although Stephen Ireland is obviously an exceptional case. Beneath all the speculation and innuendo, numerous sources have confirmed that the Manchester City player was deeply unhappy in the Irish set-up prior to what could be his last game for some time in the green shirt -- the game against Slovakia.

He didn't appreciate the banter, most of which centred around suspicious developments regarding his hair. Even more alarmingly, he is understood to have approached senior players looking for a bit of help and was told that he was being too precious.

There are plenty more players with reason to be unsatisfied with their current lot -- those who have been victims of Staunton's ludicrous selection policy.

Somehow, within every squad, there appears to be thirteen or fourteen players named who are in genuine starting contention, a further seven or eight brought along to make up the numbers, and a couple in exile who come straight into the starting fold once summoned, thus making their initial absence inexplicable. You could forgive them for treading carefully on the red carpet in case it is laced with nails.

Exclusion

What must Liam Miller make of his exclusion from the initial selection for this double header when he was the man Staunton sent for in an emergency at half time on Wednesday night? What were the likes of Jonathan Douglas and Alan O'Brien, unused completely in those two games, doing there in the first place?

Rather than blooding young players methodically, Staunton has merely succeeding in throwing them to the lions before realising his error. Joey O'Brien was quickly sacrificed to make room for Miller on Wednesday. Andy Keogh was withdrawn to a polite reception.

He had endured two extremely ineffective games in an unfamiliar role. Practically being used as a convenient excuse. More worrying, however, are persistent whispers that some of the newer brigade and the stalwarts have not quite clicked. What we have now is a far more national team than we have had at any stage in recent memory but also a squad from a variety of backgrounds.

Not all of them have come through the hard grind of apprenticeship in English football, spending their lives in a sheltered environment. Instead, we have a more articulate breed, like Kevin Doyle, like Shane Long, like Stephen Hunt who are from different stock. Overnight sensations, if you will, but far more inclined to take responsibility for their mistakes. There's less of the spoofing.

Late on Wednesday night, Doyle admitted that aiming for third place in the group was not a task that anyone could get excited about. After another debacle against Cyprus, it was the least of their concerns. There's a bigger picture.

And this is where the issue of leadership comes to play, the whole root of the fallacy that this current Irish group are wholly united under one umbrella. The problem is that the manager is effectively still one of the lads.

Demeanour

All you have to do is watch the demeanour of Staunton and Keane at their frequently embarrassing pre-match press conferences. Watch as they sit side by side, with their arms folded, defensively poised. Sniggering at their own jokes, or the struggles of interpreters and questions from foreign sounding journalists. Not like manager and captain but as colleagues, as team-mates.

Like they once were. Add to the mix all the hangers on, like Byrne, with his cheerleading and feverish hugging after every game, and what we essentially have is a clique with the gaffer at the centre of it.

They are trying to recreate an atmosphere of days gone by, something that only those involved at the time can understand. It has failed miserably.

Of course, not everyone was too enamoured back in the good old days either.

There was another Keane that didn't really get it. A chap called Roy, you might have heard of him. He wasn't one for the sing-songs and neither, it seems, are quite a few of the current breed.

Not when so many are singing a different tune.

- Daniel McDonnell

macdermesser
19/10/2007, 9:03 AM
looks like the gloves are off now regarding spin and the alleged bullying of journalists that Dunphy was going on about the other night. Open season in the papers today.

I think untenable is the word that fits here now... and we know what happens after that.

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 9:04 AM
I've heard the same from several sources, even full blown disputes. This is not a united / happy camp.

Fair play to MacDonnell. The rest of the press pack know about it, but why has only one broken ranks to highlight it?

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 9:08 AM
one word for that article - crap.

print it off and wipe yer arse with it.

I hate when journalists have nothing to write about and start printing this stuff. It does no good only harm.

Ash
19/10/2007, 9:13 AM
Is that Dan McD the Dundalk fan? Used to run OrielWeb?

Billsthoughts
19/10/2007, 9:15 AM
I dont agree with ya Paul...why is it crap?
I have no idea if it is the dundalk person or not...

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 9:17 AM
If the Ireland squad is divided and Staunton's main selling point was an ability to restore the spirit of old, then why should a journalist not bring it to the public domain? It's important even if it has no bearing on Staunton. The players are letting us down on the pitch and we have a right to understand all the reasons why.

Why should disharmony be brushed under the carpet? Paul, you heard the same story that I heard just before the game in Prague.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 9:20 AM
I dont agree with ya Paul...why is it crap?
I have no idea if it is the dundalk person or not...

One reason for a start, these players will be here whoever the next manager is, by making out divisions exist in the squad is not going to help these get on any better. If there are divisions its up to the lads themselves and/or a manager to bring them together and sort it, by playing it out in the public that there are problems amongst members because of different backgrounds etc is just plain wrong.

We dont need to know about it, and shouldn't.

OwlsFan
19/10/2007, 9:21 AM
What a load of speculative cods wallop. Hickey gives the guys he knows a hug and doesn't hug the young guys he doesn't know. Hence there is a schism in the camp :rolleyes:

Joey O'Brien was quickly sacrificed to make room for Miller on Wednesday.

:rolleyes: "Quickly"!! He gave him 45 minutes trying him out in centre midfield and he was right to change it. He has done well there before but it obviously wasn't working out. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Mountains out of molehills. I agree with Paul O'Shea. A journalist filling up space with rumours and innuendos.

citizenerased
19/10/2007, 9:24 AM
the clicky ****e from the charlton era, no wonder the likes of stevie Ireland felt alienated..Get rid of all them idiots, Mick Byrne Hickey etc..we ahve to get away from the boys club mentality

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 9:24 AM
Why should disharmony be brushed under the carpet? Paul, you heard the same story that I heard just before the game in Prague.

Ill admit, I do listen to the rumours, but at least they are rumours and no proof. When a journalist comes out with stuff like this it is no longer just rumours with only a few knowning, its taken as fact ( even though its more than likely wolly speculation ) and the whole country knows! And that leads to the question, how in any way does that help the players and the team?


What a load of speculative cods wallop. Hickey gives the guys he knows a hug and doesn't hug the young guys he doesn't know. Hence there is a schism in the camp



That was the main line that drew me to my post, how stupid a sentence is that in fairness?!

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 9:27 AM
I think you've probably picked on the least important pieces of the article OF.

shanman2
19/10/2007, 9:27 AM
one word for that article - crap.

print it off and wipe yer arse with it.

I hate when journalists have nothing to write about and start printing this stuff. It does no good only harm.

The article is probably the best I have read in recent times to describe just how bad things are as a group. Yesterday evening Brian Kerr spoke about when he was in charge of the side and certain players not wanting to do their homework. He went on to explain that he felt the way he approached things was the reason Roy Keane came back. He wanted to approach things properly.
Then we get this clown Staunton. Who the hell can honestly say they wanted him in charge. He has condoned these cliques. Mick Byrne should haveleft with the charlton era.
Robbie Keane should get a kick up the arse and be told to go back to Spurs until he learns to respect Doyle and the rest of the young lads coming through. Keane sufficates Doyle he takes his space and even crosses that were meant for him.
The whole Stephen Ireland thing is rediculous. Who cares what he does to his hair. I know for certain all I care about is how he plays football Richard Dunne and the rest of them should hang their heads in shame.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 9:31 AM
[QUOTE=paul_oshea;795071]one word for that article - crap.

print it off and wipe yer arse with it.

I hate when journalists have nothing to write about and start printing this stuff. It does no good only harm.[/QUOTE

The article is probably the best I have read in recent times to describe just how bad things are as a group. Yesterday evening Brian Kerr spoke about when he was in charge of the side and certain players not wanting to do their homework. He went on to explain that he felt the way he approached things was the reason Roy Keane came back. He wanted to approach things properly.
Then we get this clown Staunton. Who the hell can honestly say they wanted him in charge. He has condoned these cliques. Mick Byrne should haveleft with the charlton era.
Robbie Keane should get a kick up the arse and be told to go back to Spurs until he learns to respect Doyle and the rest of the young lads coming through. Keane sufficates Doyle he takes his space and even crosses that were meant for him.
The whole Stephen Ireland thing is rediculous. Who cares what he does to his hair. I know for certain all I care about is how he plays football Richard Dunne and the rest of them should hang their heads in shame.

And there I rest my case.

shanman2
19/10/2007, 9:35 AM
[QUOTE=shanman2;795097]

And there I rest my case.

The only way to stop it Paul is to embarrase them it seems they whole lot of them are a F:"king disgrace. Better out than in?? deffinately in this case..

geysir
19/10/2007, 9:42 AM
I think you've probably picked on the least important pieces of the article OF.

There is nothing else. I would like to read something which even just has a hint of substance to the "Squad Divided" theme.
All I get is a source close to Stephen Ireland says he was not happy.
Stop the lights with that one.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 9:47 AM
There is nothing else. I would like to read something which even just has a hint of substance to the "Squad Divided" theme.
All I get is a source close to Stephen Ireland says he was not happy.
Stop the lights with that one.

Exactement, c'est vrai!

ifk101
19/10/2007, 9:51 AM
There're no hard facts in the article. Everything written is based on perception. But we can't expect that 25 chaps put together are all going to get on with each other. There're always going to be divisions. It's only when results go badly that these divisions become emphasised and we get articles such as the above in the papers.

Piltownpossy
19/10/2007, 9:54 AM
Very good article, particularly in relation to some of the newer lads not being spoofers. Some of the elder statesmen have been far too comfortable for far too long and sitting in the middle of the old boys clique doesn't help.

Someone mentioned above that its up to the players and the managers to sort this tpe of thing out - how can that happen when the manager appears to condone it?

Respect and Friendship are two totally different things when it comes to management and earning one doesnt necessitate the other. Yes there are always going to be a player or two who have the managers ear so to speak, but its clear that some are merely playing on seniorority and these ultimately are the spoofers within the squad.

Refreshing to read a journalist whos willing to take the leap and print what others won't

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 9:56 AM
He cites Stephen Ireland's case as being exceptional, though I agree he needlessly laboured the point.

He points to a divide between the "stars" and those who have arrived late. If I'd seen this article by itself I'd agree with you but having heard what I heard recently from sources I trust I think it's important for all to know that the camp isn't united. I've no doubt (as someone PM'd me) that if results were better the atmosphere would be better.

NeilMcD
19/10/2007, 10:01 AM
What did you hear Stuttgart.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 10:02 AM
Some of the elder statesmen have been far too comfortable for far too long and sitting in the middle of the old boys clique doesn't help.

I think i alluded to reason for this before.


I've no doubt (as someone PM'd me) that if results were better the atmosphere would be better.

And vice versa?!

ifk101
19/10/2007, 10:03 AM
Due to my location, I follow the fortunes of Sweden's national side. And they have a big division within their squad. It's well known that Freddie Ljungberg and Olaf Mellberg have it in for each other. Some of the players support Ljungberg, others support Mellberg. However this is not an issue for the team's success and Sweden continue to qualify for championship after championship.

Another example is Andy Cole and Teddy Sheringham.They didn't talk to each other when playing together at Man Utd.

Point being you don't necessarily have to have a group of players that like each other to get them functioning as a team. A skilled manager can divert these problems.

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 10:10 AM
What did you hear Stuttgart.

Robbie Keane called John O'Shea a sissy and O'Shea pulled Robbie's hair and put a snail in his boot.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 10:10 AM
Robbie Keane called John O'Shea a sissy and O'Shea pulled Robbie's hair and put a snail in his boot.

Id say he called him more than that ;)

BradyIsMyHero
19/10/2007, 10:28 AM
Whether the article is fully true or not, it is as plain as day that something is dreadfully wrong in the camp.

It is also as plain as day that Delaney (the quisling) is now fully prepared to give Stan the boot ( "It wasn't me who apponted him...). Clearly , the accountants in Merrion Square know that there is no possibility of filling Croke Park under current circumstances (think of forthcoming friendlies v Brazil for a start) and that something has to change.

Stan is the sacrificial lamb, and easier to get rid of. Delaney, unfortunately, will stay

Stuttgart88
19/10/2007, 10:30 AM
Clearly , the accountants in Merrion Square know that there is no possibility of filling Croke Park under current circumstances (think of forthcoming friendlies v Brazil for a start) and that something has to change.

You can actually see the Euro signs ringing in the FAI's eyes. First home game, new "world class" manager, new era...

Drumcondra 69er
19/10/2007, 10:48 AM
Easy article to write with very little substance to it really. Results are **** therefore the atmosphere is going to be bad. Stop the press, man hugs people he knows and doesn't hug people he doesn't! Those that made points about Sweeden and Sheringham / Cole are spot on. We were lucky enough to have a squad of players that got on exceptionally well under Charlton (bar O'Leary but that didn't stop him getting lept on after his penalty did it) and under McCarthy (bar Judas of course). Maybe they don't get on so well now, so what, it's up to the manager to ensure that doesn't impact and they all pull together on the pitch. The problem is that Staunton is incapable of doing this so that makes the situation ten times worse.

As for Stephen Ireland, well I'm sorry Stephen but that's teh sort of banter you can expect amongst any group of lads in their twenties, do a Shane Warne and sell an ad for advanced hair studios if you like rather then denying it and getting into a huff over it. You reckon the aussies didn't take the **** out of Warne when he had his rug done?? Doubt he cried over it.

O'Donnell's an average journalist at best, that story is pure hearsay.

geysir
19/10/2007, 11:03 AM
Well assessed Drumcondra. I was thinking of Keith Wood with his velcro and go.

MojoPin
19/10/2007, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Stuttgart88;795083 why should a journalist not bring it to the public domain? [/QUOTE]

because we are not a communist state

tetsujin1979
19/10/2007, 11:46 AM
because we are not a communist state
If we were in a communist state, it wouldn't be allowed into the public domain

Billsthoughts
19/10/2007, 12:35 PM
Im confused...are we or are we not a communist state?:confused:

Sligo Hornet
19/10/2007, 12:37 PM
Im confused...are we or are we not a communist state?:confused:

Stop asking stupid questions and get on with your work comrade.;)

shanman2
19/10/2007, 12:46 PM
because we are not a communist state

Dear God you must be joking Mojopin

MojoPin
19/10/2007, 12:50 PM
:eek: made a mistake taught stuggarts post said why should a jorno bring it in too the public domain sorry.... :cool:

drummerboy
19/10/2007, 12:53 PM
Think this is mostly speculation. There is bound to be a certain divide between the older players and the new arrivials, especially in the case of 3 lads from Reading, who are bound to be a clique in themselves. I think it was insulting to say that the younger guys were more articulate than the likes of Given, Kilbane, Dunne ect.

Wolfie
19/10/2007, 12:55 PM
If some of them did their talking on the pitch, noone would give a toss how articulate they were or otherwise.

Drumcondra 69er
19/10/2007, 1:29 PM
Think this is mostly speculation. There is bound to be a certain divide between the older players and the new arrivials, especially in the case of 3 lads from Reading, who are bound to be a clique in themselves. I think it was insulting to say that the younger guys were more articulate than the likes of Given, Kilbane, Dunne ect.

It is insult and is just an excuse for journalists that are obsessed with Roy Keane to have a cut at those players who actually played for their country in Japan and Korea. The new blood is post Saipan and therfore beyond criticism. Robbie Keane hasn't covered himslef in glory with is attitude and utterances this campaign but no one can have complaints about Kilbane (remember his interview following San Marion away? Didn't duck anything at all), Given , Dunne or Finnan for a start. It's lazy journalism again.

And is the writer was that worried about Stephen Ireland getting a bit of slagging then why give that story )that's really done the rounds on the web only) publicity in the national press. The lad will be mortified to see that if he's already self conscious about it.....

Noelys Guitar
19/10/2007, 1:40 PM
It is insult and is just an excuse for journalists that are obsessed with Roy Keane to have a cut at those players who actually played for their country in Japan and Korea. The new blood is post Saipan and therfore beyond criticism. Robbie Keane hasn't covered himslef in glory with is attitude and utterances this campaign but no one can have complaints about Kilbane (remember his interview following San Marion away? Didn't duck anything at all), Given , Dunne or Finnan for a start. It's lazy journalism again.

And is the writer was that worried about Stephen Ireland getting a bit of slagging then why give that story )that's really done the rounds on the web only) publicity in the national press. The lad will be mortified to see that if he's already self conscious about it.....

As Soon as I read that article I thought written in Bowes public house after at least 5 pints. Pure work of fiction.

NeilMcD
19/10/2007, 1:58 PM
Its the Long Stone now ha ha he is a young pup

Ozymandias
19/10/2007, 1:59 PM
As Soon as I read that article I thought written in Bowes public house after at least 5 pints. Pure work of fiction.

if he was drinking in bowes..he most definately wrote it in the bog......coz thats where you'd end up after five of their pints...allegedly

geysir
19/10/2007, 2:00 PM
Do you remember some story about journalist John O'Shea, he use to take the píss out of McCarthy's lack of pace and supposedly Hand arranged a sprint race between them causing Mick to supposedly pull a muscle and couldn't play in the team.
There was so much venom printed about Eoin Hand people spat on him in the streets. Now the same shíte is being directed at Stan, the players must be feeling relieved that all the bullits are directed at him.
The decision has been taken, the Stan era is over, it was the worst since the days before Liam Touhy, possibly the worst ever. Leave it at that and move on, Stan did his limited best to win as a manager.

Ozymandias
19/10/2007, 2:02 PM
The decision has been taken, the Stan era is over, it was the worst since the days before Liam Touhy, possibly the worst ever. Leave it at that and move on, Stan did his limited best to win as a manager.

her I corrected it for ya......Stan did his limited best as a manager

geysir
19/10/2007, 2:09 PM
Thanks, I didn't have 5 pints in Bowes so I don't have an excuse

Drumcondra 69er
19/10/2007, 2:23 PM
Do you remember some story about journalist John O'Shea, he use to take the píss out of McCarthy's lack of pace and supposedly Hand arranged a sprint race between them causing Mick to supposedly pull a muscle and couldn't play in the team.
There was so much venom printed about Eoin Hand people spat on him in the streets. Now the same shíte is being directed at Stan, the players must be feeling relieved that all the bullits are directed at him.
The decision has been taken, the Stan era is over, it was the worst since the days before Liam Touhy, possibly the worst ever. Leave it at that and move on, Stan did his limited best to win as a manager.


Yeah, don't think he pulled a muscle though but I don't think there was much in the race, McCarthy won it by a nose!! :)

It's a bit similar to Hand in that his big players (the likes of Brady, Stapleton and O'Leary) didn't perform towards the end of his reign but Hand got us to within a heartbeat of the 82 World Cup and would've been a national hero had it not been for bought referees against Belgium and France (I firmly believe that, it was very common on the continent at the time). It went tits up at the end but can't really be compared to this debacle.

geysir
19/10/2007, 2:37 PM
Stutts is yer man to discuss the conspiracies with. He's a believer :)

My favourite is the one where the commie Bulgarians use to have the ladies of the night lined up in a queue outside the ref's hotel room

Drumcondra 69er
19/10/2007, 2:40 PM
Stutts is yer man to discuss the conspiracies with. He's a believer :)

My favourite is the one where the commie Bulgarians use to have the ladies of the night lined up in a queue outside the ref's hotel room

ALso true!! :D:D

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 3:07 PM
Its the Long Stone now ha ha he is a young pup

Ah double entendre, good one Neil, even if ye didnt mean it ;)

geysir
19/10/2007, 3:25 PM
I don't get the "double sens" Paul, enlighten please.

paul_oshea
19/10/2007, 3:35 PM
The pub....and the player

Btw what does "traffice in both ways" have to do with what i was saying ;)