Overnight Trains in Europe

[stiofain]

I've got a week off in December and i'm thinking of visiting Poland, but rather than fly (which i'm always petrified doing) i'm considering travelling by train from London. I've taken inspiration from this (http://www.seat61.com/Poland.htm) website and though it will be time consuming, it should be a great experience and it will allow me to spend time in other cities along the way. The journey will consist of taking the Eurostar to Brussels, then a 'sleeper' train to Berlin before another train into Poland.
Does anyone have any first hand experience or advice regarding overnight train journeys?

[paul_oshea]

if travelling on yer own, lie with your head facing up in the sleeper train.

For a week its a lot of train travelling, you can get seriouslly restless if you are on your own.

[CollegeTillIDie]

If you're travelling by train in Eastern Europe go first class if at all possible. It's just about acceptable anything lower may not be.I's also more likely to have some kind of patrolling by ticket inspectors for extra security. You will be woken up at every border crossing you reach, so have your passport somewhere secure but reachable while in bed. Overnighted from Budapest to Bucharest back in 2003 travelled first class overnight it wasn't expensive by Irish standards at all. Depending on what part of Poland you want to visit Berlin is a good place to head off from in Germany.

[Bluebeard]

About 4 years ago, I travelled from Dublin to Japan overland, via Poland and Lithuania, and I would thoroughly recommend the short hop to Poland if you can manage it timewise.

I went to Brussels overnight by bus - never again - Eurolines may be cheap but you lose out in the equation, and the timing is awful. I'd say extra early morning or very late night Eurostar to Brussels, then change for the heart of the Fazerland! That way you should get the benefit of seeing the landscape of Germany as you pass through it. I had to change at Koln, then through to Berlin where I'd a three hour wait. If it can be done, get to Berlin early and aim for as late a train as possible, to allow some leg stretch time and a wander around a facinating capital. My train from Berlin left about 21h local time and arrived in Warsawa around 06h, so there was little to be done at that time but wander for quite a few hours.

There is also the possibility of doing it City-hop fashion - overnight to Paris or Belgium - the day there; overnight ot Berlin or Dresden(?) - the day there; overnight to your Polish destination. This is a little tiring, but a good city-shock way to see a couple of cities, to taste them for a later serving.

As chances are that you will be taking any of your overnight trains on the first part of the journey from Germany, France or Belgium, depending on your routing possibilities, I wouold recommend couchette class, as there is bugger all difference except price and company really. If money is not a major factor, go mad and go first class. I'm sure you use l'Oreale!

[paul_oshea]

Oh bearded one, can you detail a little more about that trip? How did you get fromm lithuania to japan?

[OneRedArmy]

Oh bearded one, can you detail a little more about that trip? How did you get fromm lithuania to japan?
Trans-Siberian I would imagine?

[paul_oshea]

does that start in austria? i thought it did?! obviouslly though you can jump on. I also thought it finished in china not japan.

[Bluebeard]

After a brief sojourn with friends in Lithuania, I made my way by early morning Eurolines bus to Riga - a rail link does go to Moscow via Vilnius, but it also goes via Belarus, where the current regime seems to have about 40% of it's annual turnover on transit fees, and I suspect another 20% from scelping folk coming over to try to help those affected by Chernobyl.

Riga was an afternoon's ambling - gorgeous city - followed by lepping on the overnight train to Moscow. I got the tickets on the day, each time prior to Russia, without any hassle. After that, it was the Trans Siberian Train (which is NOT an express, and does NOT go through China (Trans-Manchurian)or Mongolia(Trans-Mongolian)).

It was the best part of a night and two days to get to Yekaterinaburg, site of a gold rush in the 19th Century, border city of Europe and Asia, and supposed site of the death of the Romanovs at the hands of Comrade Sverdlov, for whom the town was named in Soviet times. This part of the route was on a different (Not TS) train going via Kazan rather than Perm. Two days stop over (the train only leaves Moscow / Vladivostok every two days) before getting back on in the evening for what felt the longest part of the trip.

May in Russia is hot, and when you have only maybe three stops of any consequence (more than 15 minutes) to look forward to any given day, it feels very claustrophobic too. Two nights and a bit is a long time on a train with only pot noodle, some fruit and overly sweet breads (NOT sweetbreads!) to keep one sated. It was on this part of the route I was helped greatly by the opportunity to try tuning in to hear Celtic lose the UEFA cup final to Porto in Russian. Eventually, in the dead of night, after a horribly long trip, I arrived in Irkutsk, capital of Siberia. Back in the day, it had been the capital of a vast area that incorporated what went Alaska up until the 1860s (I think). A beautiful city near to the worlds largest repository of fresh water, Lake Baikal, it was for me the Russia gem, and one I would gladly visit again. It's fairly closely connected to the Siberian hunting industry, and from there you can get onto the BAM rail routes to take you up to the wilds of Russia deep into tundra.

Two days off, two days on, and a 3am departure to Vladivostok. By the time one arrives in Vladivostok, you are aware of one thing and not of another - this is definitely the East - the harbour looks like what you might expect of a less populous Hong Kong or Shanghai. A lot more people on the streets are Asiatic - the most one will have seen since Berlin or London. They are not Chinese, and apart from a few "Exchanged workers" not Korean either - these are the indiginous peoples of the area, now, through a quirk of empire and location, Russian. What you will not have noticed is that you are now 9 hours different to Moscow. As I had travelled by train, the 9000 kilometres seemed an endless seve and a bit days of train travel, but the time change was simple - days lasted roughly the right length, and you only change just over an hour a day - easily done. Now, with the main TV stations being based in Moscow, the simple pleasures afforded in Moscow by the late night "sexy TV" programming was replaced by kids programmes (no, no, no people!). The corrollorary of this means that some kids who are stayinghome sick the day must be find out about the birds, the bees and the leather strap-ons a lot earlier than we did in good old Ireland of my time (about aged 25, in that magazine one of the boys brought back from England).

After a few days in Vladivostok, a formerly closed military city, and still a significant one in that regard, I made my way on the "Local" ferry to Toyama in Japan. There are two boats every couple of days - one for the turists, and one for the "respectable business" tyeps who are going over to buy used cars at intriguingly low privces from unlisted dealers. I'm sure I believe that everything was above board there. It was a fascinating experience, as they feed you and seat you, and you are seated beside someone for all your meals on the 36 hour crossing. I was sat with a chap who had travelled the world, had some interesting associates and a son who wanted to act for a living. He had a naval passport, but claimed to have never been part of the military forces, despite having lived his whole life in Vladivostok. Hmm.

I would have ideally gone from Vladivostok back into Russia and off down to Pyongyang and over the border into the south and onto a boat from there, but at the time I was booking things, it was not possible. Since then, apparently the borders have opened to allow one train a week each way.

A couple of weeks in Japan on a J-Rail pass ended with me grabbing a flight to LA (bleugh), and Amtrack-ing across the States over 10 days to fly out of New York on the 4th of July
The longest possible route manageable by train in the world is supposed to be from some small station in the south of Portugal through Warsawa and Vilnius to Moscow and on to Beijing on the Trans Manchurian, and down south to Vietnam - there is one to aim for!

[CollegeTillIDie]

You have to change trains in Moscow to get from St. Petersburg to Vladivostock. The two lines don't join up. So you would have to use some other public transport such as metro bus or tram to complete the journey.

[paul_oshea]

great read BB, it only took ye a day and a half ;)

I have just decided based on what you have said to try the same with a mate within the next 2 years, or drive as far as we can in a crap car, see how far we get then jump on a plane or taxi.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/d4/Vladivostok_parade.jpg

They dont look very "asian"


A lot more people on the streets are Asiatic - the most one will have seen since Berlin or London. They are not Chinese, and apart from a few "Exchanged workers" not Korean either - these are the indiginous peoples of the area, now, through a quirk of empire and location, Russian. What you will not have noticed is that you are now 9 hours different to Moscow. As I had travelled by train, the 9000 kilometres seemed an endless seve and a bit days of train travel, but the time change was simple - days lasted roughly the right length, and you only change just over an hour a day - easily done

Btw that doesnt make sense, were you travelling for 9 days from Moscow? As I thought you said it was about 2.5 + 1.5 days i.e. 4. Something not quite right there.

BB, it sounds like you went it alone, would you advise for long train journeys doing it with someone else? For the company at least.

[Bluebeard]

You have to change trains in Moscow to get from St. Petersburg to Vladivostock. The two lines don't join up. So you would have to use some other public transport such as metro bus or tram to complete the journey.

Uh, I never said go to St. Petersburg - go direct from Vilnius to Moscow through Belarus - it's actually part of the Kaliningrad Express which only occasionally stops at Vilnius (once or twice a week each way) linking the Moscow to the one physically disconnected part of Russia.

Also, whatever about the two stations in Moscow, the Metro - a type of train in its own right, links the stations.

[Bluebeard]

Please forgive the slight re-structuring and editing of your mail to make the responses easier to manage.


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/d4/Vladivostok_parade.jpg

They dont look very "asian".
That's because that is largely for tourist purposes - ideologically it is still in many ways a closed city, as like much of Russia, it has an image it wants to portray. Those costumes are very much European style slavic traditional wear. According to Wiki (can't find an immediate source to hand better)Russia only took over control here from the Chinese in the late 1850s.

I would also suggest that, from what little I gleaned talking to people and watching them, throughout Russia, the indigenous peoples in many different oblasts are treated in a second rate fashion. Here they generally looked poorer that the slavic (colonist?) types



Btw that doesnt make sense, were you travelling for 9 days from Moscow? As I thought you said it was about 2.5 + 1.5 days i.e. 4. Something not quite right there.
You are probably right, my calculations on a Tuesday afternoon may well be skewed by lack of concentration. It should work out at around 7 days, and on top of that you have the whole time change throughout. It worked out something like this, if I recall correctly (ignore the days, it's just for the sake of giving an idea of the order of things):
Depart Moscow Sun 16h
Arrive Ekatrinburg Mon 17h
Depart Ekatrinburg Mon 17h30
Arrive Irkutsk Thurs 02h45
Depart Irkutsk Thurs 03h45
Arrive Vladivostok Sat or Sun 01h (by the last leg time blurred a lot!)

www.seat61.com (http://www.seat61.com)would probably have all this detail more accurate than my tatty memory.



I have just decided based on what you have said to try the same with a mate within the next 2 years, or drive as far as we can in a crap car, see how far we get then jump on a plane or taxi.

BB, it sounds like you went it alone, would you advise for long train journeys doing it with someone else? For the company at least.

Excellent idea mate, seriously go for it - one of the best trips I've ever done.

As you guessed, I did it alone alright, but with a good grasp of English, German and some rudimentary Slavic (Serbian) to construct some Russian around. The German was more useful than one would have expected. The effort made with Russian opened a number of doors (and a few windows), and a willingness to communicate on their terms meant a lot of gesture was used on both sides.

As I went in May (that or late April are good times to go, before the heat gets up, and while the place is still quite green), I think I only meant native or fluent English speakers on one day of the trip after Moscow - unsurprisingly at Lake Baikal. Otherwise, I was travelling exclusively with Russians to the best of my knowledge. My anglophonic companions during this were messers H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, and Jerome k.Jerome and the occasional e-mail.

I'm used to the solo stranger in a strange land thing from years ago, and I quite enjoy it from time to time, but it is a long journey and I would recommend company. It also is quite nice to have someone for either back up if something starts going a bit aggro (never happened me fortunately), or someone to use as an excuse to go to, or to get you out of a pickle

The best example of such a pickle would be what I call my Dr. Zhivago experience. This was one of those many times that I was leaning out the window (this needs to be timed to not get smacked by a telegraph pole) enjoying the Taiga flying past: this chap comes up and starts talking to me - the usual - rudimentary words, gesture, etc. Clearly he'd spotted the blindingly obvious foreigner and wanted to improve his English, so I thought. Eventually he started asking why I was not married - a typical experience I have had whenever I've travelled outside of Western Europe. He described his family at length. Very nice. Then he started telling me how beautifful I was, brokenly obviously. "Aha", thinks I to meself, "he wants to say that he finds me to be a good person, and that he likes me. Bless him, he's making a fierce good go at it with what English he has. Fair play."

And then, as the song goes, he kissed me.

I have travelled far and wide, and I have been lucky enough to meet and experience many vastly different cultures. I have learned much from my travels about not jumping to a Western Post-Christian conclusion on matters - various places have various ways. as a kid, I couldn't get over the fact that in France they kiss each other on the cheek when they meet: having grown up in rural Ireland of the 70s and 80s, any men indulging in more than a firm handshake was what we called back in those benighted times, "a bit quare, ya know". And in due course, it eventually became commonly understood that where it was the case that these boys were "a bit quare" there was no harm in that either, once everyone involved was happy with things.

Armed with this openness and willingness to accept that this is probably one of the odd customs in a rather remote part of a a unfathomable vast empire, I was happy to let it go. And I laughed along. When he went for it again, I didn't need to feel his tongue attempting to penetrate my teeth to realise "No, this is attempting to go beyond a custom". I suspect that the bristle of his little moustache against my top lip and cheek was what tipped me off.

So it was Dr. Zhivago. Except I was Lara.

I disengaged - personally, I don't care who you are, I like to know that there is a kiss about to happen before a tongue goes rambling towards my tonsils (Well, actually I'll make an exception for perhaps Monica Belucci - someone tell her I'd be cool with that whenever she wants). I fumbled my way out of the embrace, but had not mannerly way of escaping for a while, without showing him the cabin in which I would sleeping. It is a long train, but depending on when you're allighting next, it is a small place. And after this, I had no intention of getting off until I alighted.

A moment like that is one when a friend would be useful. However a moment like that is when a friend would be awful, as there is no way they could ever possibly let something like that go unslagged. I know, because I wouldn't!

[paul_oshea]

And then, as the song goes, he kissed me.

:D:D I nearly died reading that. You know if anyone meets you not from foot.ie, thats the first thing that is going to pop into their head. Your street cred on foot.ie has now plummeted, that really is hilarious BB. I cant stop laughing.


I had no intention of getting off until I alighted.

Did he not offer to help?! ;)

[Bluebeard]

:D:D I nearly died reading that. You know if anyone meets you not from foot.ie, thats the first thing that is going to pop into their head. Your street cred on foot.ie has now plummeted, that really is hilarious BB. I cant stop laughing.

I had street cred?

It is one of those case that I can laugh about it now, but at the time it was terrible.

[stiofain]

Thanks for the advice lads. Very intersting replies.

[pineapple stu]

You have to change trains in Moscow to get from St. Petersburg to Vladivostock. The two lines don't join up. So you would have to use some other public transport such as metro bus or tram to complete the journey.
Think it's in Poland the lines don't join up; or at least, it's the Russian guage that's different to the European guage (which in turn is different to the Irish guage...). 'Twas on Michael Palin last week, and what he says goes!

Travelled from Paris to Berlin years ago; only thing I found is that it was hard to get to sleep 'cos I was scared I'd sleep through my stop an end up in deepest darkest Eastern Europe somewhere. So bring a good alarm clock if you've any early stops!

[Bluebeard]

Think it's in Poland the lines don't join up; or at least, it's the Russian guage that's different to the European guage (which in turn is different to the Irish guage...). 'Twas on Michael Palin last week, and what he says goes!

Travelled from Paris to Berlin years ago; only thing I found is that it was hard to get to sleep 'cos I was scared I'd sleep through my stop an end up in deepest darkest Eastern Europe somewhere. So bring a good alarm clock if you've any early stops!
Sorry CTID, I now see what you meant through the lens of another student. The old Soviet Union (and perhaps Mongolia - I disrecall) had a different gauge, and you had to either change train or change the chassis. I don't recall any change of chassis crossing from Poland to Lithuania, or Latvia to Russia, so I'm guessing it either happens by a separate route leaving Warsawa, or the Warsawa - Vilnius line being a special case of a European gauge being built specifically..

[CollegeTillIDie]

Think it's in Poland the lines don't join up; or at least, it's the Russian guage that's different to the European guage (which in turn is different to the Irish guage...). 'Twas on Michael Palin last week, and what he says goes!

Travelled from Paris to Berlin years ago; only thing I found is that it was hard to get to sleep 'cos I was scared I'd sleep through my stop an end up in deepest darkest Eastern Europe somewhere. So bring a good alarm clock if you've any early stops!

The lines from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok are the same gauge as they are all in Russia. They don't join up because there is no national railway line crossing the city of Moscow. You missed the point completely. Yes the gauges are different between Poland and Russia but there is a junction where the change can take place between gauges . You change trains apparently somewhere on the border.

[paul_oshea]

im completely lost, so are you saying BB doesnt remember changing train....possibly because he was caught up in a ( the ) "moment"?

[CollegeTillIDie]

im completely lost, so are you saying BB doesnt remember changing train....possibly because he was caught up in a ( the ) "moment"?

They may have moved the carriages on to different gauged bogeys and he may have been asleep. I mentioned the St. Petersburg thing because some people like to cross the whole span of Russia... and I was giving the information which I gleaned from my visit to Moscow in 2002 , as to how that could be done.

[mypost]

And now, for the (over)night trains in Ireland section:

21:00: Heuston-Cork
22:45: Heuston-Kildare
23.20: Connolly-Dundalk

Er, that's it.