View Full Version : Dawkins is seen at Mass-what a turnaround.
eamo1
16/10/2007, 12:33 PM
I seen an article in a Catholic newspaper that Richard Dawkins of "The God Delusion" fame has been spotted at Mass.I will try and scan the article from the newspaper because their website only provides the headline of it and not the actual full article.but here is the link where the headline is anyway:http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/news_index.html.
I hope that works.
If so its an incredible turnaround for a guy who a few months ago was having bitter arguments with David Quinn in particular about the exsistence of God.It reminds me a bit of that Roe woman in the united states who was responsible for getting abortion legalised but had a change of heart and is now campaigning for it to be overturned.
jebus
16/10/2007, 12:36 PM
Not a fan of Dawkins but I wouldn't take a Catholic Newspaper saying he's converted as anything other than nonsense to try and discredit the man. Doubt Dawkins would ever change his opinion about anything, let alone his cash cow beliefs.
Either way Dawkins has been doing enough to discredit himself lately, what with his 'the Jews are running a America' statements
dahamsta
16/10/2007, 12:42 PM
Um, one of the other front page articles on that website is "Pope's life told through the eyes of a cat". Hello?
John83
16/10/2007, 12:50 PM
Um, one of the other front page articles on that website is "Pope's life told through the eyes of a cat". Hello?
Read the article - there appears to be such a book.
Mgr Gänswein assured readers that he knows Pope Benedict well and that the words author Jeanne Perego puts into the mouth of Chico are “all true and interesting”
It's been widely reported elsewhere on the internet.
Regardless, Dawkins seen at mass and Dawkins is a Catholic are not equivalent statements.
osarusan
16/10/2007, 12:57 PM
Regardless, Dawkins seen at mass and Dawkins is a Catholic are not equivalent statements.
Exactly, he's probably getting more hands-on evidence for his arguments against God.
Read the article - there appears to be such a book.
Mrs Chippy must be turning in her grave.
David Quinn having bitter arguements? I'm astonished at that...
Lionel Ritchie
16/10/2007, 2:23 PM
If so its an incredible turnaround for a guy who a few months ago was having bitter arguments with David Quinn in particular about the exsistence of God.. Maybe it was a wedding, a funeral, a baptism or an anniversary mass for someone...
I'm an athiest. I don't believe a word of the garbage I was reared to consider "my faith" ...I reject it all for it's well dodgy core-theory, highly suspect provenance and ...general whiff of bullsh1t -yet I go to RC churches from time to time because most of my family are either practicing or nominal RCs ..and if they were all Jewish I'd probably be going to Synagogues for funerals, weddings, parties anything.
By the by, I doubt Dawkins has ever had a bitter argument with David Quinn (who he anyway?) or anyone else. He is probably the calmest most collected debater I've ever seen.
David Quinn (who he anyway?)
God Squad Correspondent for the Indo (possibly only a columnist now), former Editor of the Irish Catholic, and former rumoured prospective PD parliamentary candidate.
Maybe it was a wedding, a funeral, a baptism or an anniversary mass for someone...
I was going to say that. He could have been there for other persons benefit - does not mean he dancing in the isle to the tunes.
That cat story sums up that site purrfectly... :rolleyes:
Lim till i die
16/10/2007, 3:05 PM
I seen an article in a Catholic newspaper that Richard Dawkins of "The God Delusion" fame has been spotted at Mass.I will try and scan the article from the newspaper because their website only provides the headline of it and not the actual full article.but here is the link where the headline is anyway:http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/news_index.html.
I hope that works.
If so its an incredible turnaround for a guy who a few months ago was having bitter arguments with David Quinn in particular about the exsistence of God.It reminds me a bit of that Roe woman in the united states who was responsible for getting abortion legalised but had a change of heart and is now campaigning for it to be overturned.
Pathetic.
He could have been there for any number of reasons :rolleyes:
The Church wouldn't have had to stoop this low in the Middle Ages I tell ya
Lim till i die
16/10/2007, 3:08 PM
Read this piece of Opinion (http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features_opinion/features_4.html) :eek: :eek: :eek:
John83
16/10/2007, 3:40 PM
Read this piece of Opinion (http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features_opinion/features_4.html) :eek: :eek: :eek:
It's fairly standard for a Catholic newspaper. The headline is moronic, but the rest of it boils down to defending US religious figures having threatened to deny communion to pro-abortionist* politicians. Big deal.
*I prefer not to mince words with 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice'.
*I prefer not to mince words with 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice'.
Also fairly standard for catholic newspapers, and others who over simplify the arguement. Being Pro Choice I obviously prefer to mince babies.
John83
16/10/2007, 4:14 PM
Also fairly standard for catholic newspapers, and others who over simplify the arguement.
Arguably. I don't think it deserves to be held up as some sort of shocking example of how the paper is totally lacking in credibility though.
Being Pro Choice I obviously prefer to mince babies.
Very good. :D
Lim till i die
16/10/2007, 4:19 PM
Arguably. I don't think it deserves to be held up as some sort of shocking example of how the paper is totally lacking in credibility though.
It was this bit:
He is cagey when asked about his faith. In August he said: “My religious affiliation, my religious practices and the degree to which I am a good or not-so-good Catholic, I prefer to leave to the priests.” And last week he reacted coolly to the possibility of being denied Holy Communion. “Archbishops have a right to their opinion,” he said.
This response compares favourably to Senator Kerry’s, who told Time magazine: “I don’t tell Church officials what to do and Church officials shouldn’t tell American politicians what to do in the context of our public life.”
It is interesting that, according to the polls, American evangelicals prefer Mr Giuliani to other presidential hopefuls. It seems they are willing to ignore the former Mayor of New York’s unChristian social values because he is hawkish on foreign policy issues.
That stuck out for me.
Granted they are obviously Christians and will as such stick up for Christian beliefs.
But really, should they have anything to do with how capable someone is of running a country??
John83
16/10/2007, 4:25 PM
Granted they are obviously Christians and will as such stick up for Christian beliefs.
But really, should they have anything to do with how capable someone is of running a country??
In their eyes, yeah, it's pretty much everything. It hardly seems unreasonable to prefer someone on the basis that his policies are what you consider to be wrong. It beats our system anyway, where people vote on religious lines, depending on whether or not they buy into the Church of Bertie.
Lim till i die
16/10/2007, 4:27 PM
depending on whether or not they buy into the Church of Bertie.
Now, now, you saw the tribunal.
No-one was bought
That money was just resting in his account
dahamsta
16/10/2007, 4:32 PM
Read the article - there appears to be such a book. There is such a book, I've seen it before. I think you might be missing my point.
John83
16/10/2007, 4:59 PM
There is such a book, I've seen it before. I think you might be missing my point.
I did. I assumed you'd taken it for a parody. Surely no one would parody one of those. Too easy! :)
That article touches on it a bit & I think it is pathetic how American politics linked so badly to religion. Hopefully we never get so bad over here.
:(
dahamsta
16/10/2007, 5:37 PM
I did. I assumed you'd taken it for a parody. Surely no one would parody one of those. Too easy! :)Replace parody with nutty and you have me.
Replace parody with nutty and you have me.
but "Surely no one would nutty one of those" makes no sense... ;)
I read the God Delusion a while back and Dawkins came across as too arrogant to ever admit to being wrong so even if he was in a church, i doubt he was "at mass" in the usual meaning of the word... one question - do you guys think that his beliefs should stop him from going to a friends funeral or a wedding or something that most people (believers or not) would attend? Would his attendance make him a hypocrite of sorts?
For what its worth i hated the book and found his scenario for the beginning of the universe just as likely/unlikely as it being designed.
One thing is, it didnt make me believe in no God as such but it did confirm my belief that organised religion is good for nothing.
ill definatly scan this article and get it up here because it states hes been to Mass FOR A FEW SUNDAYS now in the recent weeks.thats either a hell of alot of funerals,weddings etc or he has had some sort of conversion or is at least thinking of it.
my catholic faith is extremely dear to me so to insult that is to insult me,ye may think its garbage etc but i certainly dont.ive had a few answers to prayers which i just CANNOT put down to coincidence.
richard dawkins did have a heated debate with david quinn on the ryan.tub show on rte radio.dawkins was stammering and stuttering when quinn asked him if he doesnt believe in God then what does he base moral decisions on etc?dawkins was shaken by this question and AVOIDED answering it by cleverly changing the subject.a tougher interviewer would have pressed him to try answer it,maybe he couldnt though:).
dahamsta
17/10/2007, 9:52 AM
Is it not possible to go to church as research?
richard dawkins did have a heated debate with david quinn on the ryan.tub show on rte radio.dawkins was stammering and stuttering when quinn asked him if he doesnt believe in God then what does he base moral decisions on etc?dawkins was shaken by this question and AVOIDED answering it by cleverly changing the subject.a tougher interviewer would have pressed him to try answer it,maybe he couldnt though:).
I'd have just said common decency...
Anyway I agree with you that you have a right to believe in whatever religion you want and think anybody who attacks any religion should receive an infraction. I mean people were censored for using the word prod earlier this week...
MyTown
17/10/2007, 10:46 AM
I'd have just said common decency...
Anyway I agree with you that you have a right to believe in whatever religion you want and think anybody who attacks any religion should receive an infraction. I mean people were censored for using the word prod earlier this week...
Hear Hear Dodge.
As a practicing Catholic, I still haven't forgiven you for putting up that poll to get rid of our manager yesterday -:D-, but let's have a bit of consistency around here.
My kind of catholicism got a boost today with the news that the Bishop of Kilaloe has given lands for social housing in Ennis to the value of €10m. When Mr. Dawkins makes an comparable gesture, I'll be more tolerant of his arrogance.
When Mr. Dawkins makes an comparable gesture, I'll be more tolerant of his arrogance.
What, give away land that someone had probably donated to him anyway?
Jerry The Saint
17/10/2007, 11:07 AM
I'm very fond of the idea put forward by Armando Iannucci that Dawkins is actually the Messiah, sent by God to test our faith, and everyone should treat him as such :D
MyTown
17/10/2007, 11:13 AM
What, give away land that someone had probably donated to him anyway?
Source?
Come on Macy, you can do better than that. I thought unattributed claims were the exclusive preserve of us unenlightened catholics. :D
John83
17/10/2007, 11:17 AM
I'm very fond of the idea put forward by Armando Iannucci that Dawkins is actually the Messiah, sent by God to test our faith, and everyone should treat him as such :D
I love it. The Armado Iannucci shows are on the top of my wish list on amazon.
... one question - do you guys think that his beliefs should stop him from going to a friends funeral or a wedding or something that most people (believers or not) would attend? Would his attendance make him a hypocrite of sorts?
I've attended several such functions while an atheist. I know a Muslim who is a guest at a Christian wedding this week. I don't see the problem. It's not about God, Buddha or Vishnu at those times.
Source?
Come on Macy, you can do better than that. I thought unattributed claims were the exclusive preserve of us unenlightened catholics. :D
It's an educated guess. Most church property has been donated at some stage, or sold to them below market value. Not a bad thing, but sometimes it's worth remembering that churches, their property and buildings actually belong to the congregation - the good Bishop wasn't donating it out of his own pocket as you seemed to be suggesting.
Lionel Ritchie
18/10/2007, 10:08 AM
my catholic faith is extremely dear to me so to insult that is to insult me,ye may think its garbage etc but i certainly dont. Too bad. Get over it.
I have a strong belief that I couldn't possibly enjoy supporting any football teams beside Limerick, Leeds and Ireland. I don't get my knickers in a twist when people laugh at my highly improbable hypothesis.
richard dawkins did have a heated debate with david quinn on the ryan.tub show on rte radio.dawkins was stammering and stuttering when quinn asked him if he doesnt believe in God then what does he base moral decisions on etc?dawkins was shaken by this question and AVOIDED answering it by cleverly changing the subject.a tougher interviewer would have pressed him to try answer it,maybe he couldnt though:).
Wow ...sounds like Quinn wiped the floor with him. Though I'll have take your word for it.;)
my catholic faith is extremely dear to me so to insult that is to insult me,ye may think its garbage etc but i certainly dont.ive had a few answers to prayers which i just CANNOT put down to coincidence.
thats fair enough but would you put it down specifically to your catholicism?
I've attended several such functions while an atheist. I know a Muslim who is a guest at a Christian wedding this week. I don't see the problem. It's not about God, Buddha or Vishnu at those times.
A muslim guest at a christian wedding is different though. Different beliefs but a defined belief structure all the same. And weddings and funerals are centred around God. Youre declaring your love for each other in front of God. Or the priest is asking for God to accept you into heaven at funerals. Theyre really religious ceremonies and i would have imagined that as devout an atheist as Dawkins would consider his own attendance at such events as hypocritical. I totally respect your opinion though John and your right to attend whatever ceremonies you want to.
Too bad. Get over it.
In fairness (and I'm not Catholic) the amount of abuse Catholics get on these boards is ridiculous, if it were any other faith you and a few others would have been banned long ago Lionel
Schumi
18/10/2007, 7:04 PM
funerals are centred around God.I disagree. Maybe for you they are but for me, funerals are centred around the dead person and the people who loved them. Any religious aspects are distinctly secondary, even for most religious people in my experience.
Vitruvian Man
18/10/2007, 7:41 PM
Comparing the donation of land by a bishop to a donation by a private individual is daft. That would be like some middle mananger in Microsoft Ireland claiming that their philthropy programmes was his own work or something like that. In fact the RC Church and Microsoft have a lot in common what with both being global corporations with multi-billions of dollars worth of assets. Not to mention predatory practices against customers, illegal action against competitors to maintain a monopoly and selling many duff products. In fact 10 mil from the coffers would probably equate to Dawkins buying a scratch card off the guide-dogs-for-the-blind stall outside his local centra.
I'm not calling you a liar eamo1 but "how can athiests be moral if they have no religion" is one of Dawkins set piece questions to which he has his pre-prepared stock answers so I very much doubt that question flustered him. You might have heard what you want to hear there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/10/09/dp0901.xml (Mention of Dawkins at Mass in the Daily Telegraph)
Just getting back to Dawkins Jewish comments, what do his supporters make of this direct quote from the man?
When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place.
It's mildly anti-semetic, whilst also ignoring large parts of history to make a point against the Jewish lobby (the bold part). I only bring it up because Dawkins supporters tend to believe that the man's word is infalliable and this statement is one of the more ignorant I've read from a 'leading mind' in quite some time.
I disagree. Maybe for you they are but for me, funerals are centred around the dead person and the people who loved them. Any religious aspects are distinctly secondary, even for most religious people in my experience.
cannot agree fully with that. Plus you kind of took that quote out of its context. A funeral is a religious ceremony - from prayers being offered to the dead person to the dead to the priest asking for the souls acceptance into heaven to the person being buried on blessed land.
The wake and the removal and any post church gathering is about celebrating the person but the funeral from church to graveyard is deeply religious and full of religious imagery.
anyway this has probably gone a bit off topic...
cannot agree fully with that. Plus you kind of took that quote out of its context. A funeral is a religious ceremony - from prayers being offered to the dead person to the dead to the priest asking for the souls acceptance into heaven to the person being buried on blessed land.
The wake and the removal and any post church gathering is about celebrating the person but the funeral from church to graveyard is deeply religious and full of religious imagery.
anyway this has probably gone a bit off topic...
Have to disagree with you. Of course the service itself is religious but as an atheist I dont see how my attending would be hypocritial.
If someone I know and loved died there would be no questiont hat I would go to the funeral. It is a sign of respect for the person that died. They chose their religion and how they'd like to be remembered and I would respect that and attend.
Similarly with weddings and baptisms, I wont marry in a church and if i had children i wouldn't baptise them but I will attend both. It is a celebration for someone else in the way they want it.
The last funeral I was at, id wager the majority of the people there were not there because of the religious aspect. It was to be there in memory of my grandfather, in support of my grandmother and in support of one another in a time of grief
Have to disagree with you. Of course the service itself is religious but as an atheist I dont see how my attending would be hypocritial.
If someone I know and loved died there would be no questiont hat I would go to the funeral. It is a sign of respect for the person that died. They chose their religion and how they'd like to be remembered and I would respect that and attend.
Similarly with weddings and baptisms, I wont marry in a church and if i had children i wouldn't baptise them but I will attend both. It is a celebration for someone else in the way they want it.
The last funeral I was at, id wager the majority of the people there were not there because of the religious aspect. It was to be there in memory of my grandfather, in support of my grandmother and in support of one another in a time of grief
well you actually do agree with me as all i stated was that the funeral service was a religious service and i asked would it be hypocritical of someone as passionately atheist as Dawkins to attend mass or a religious service.
It was just a hypothetical question to stimulate some debate but my opinion (and its just an opinion) is that it would be slightly hypocritical - Dawkins should just go to the wake/removal/party if he feels so passionately that the dead person doesnt have to answer to God or that he doesnt even have a God to answer to and no heaven to go to? Surely he should be handing out flyers outside the church telling everyone that theyre wasting their time? Or is it just easier to belittle peoples beliefs through a book?
But he wasnt even there for a funeral as far as i know - why the hell was he at mass in the first place! :confused:
BohsPartisan
18/10/2007, 10:59 PM
Stop blaspheming against the Invisible Earth Supporting Rooster.
eamo1
18/10/2007, 11:36 PM
:D,sounds funny me saying that in this thread:).I mean thanks for pointing out what ive said before here,that Catholics get alot of abuse on here and if it was another religion getting the same abuse the poster would be banned.Im not going to call for you to be banned though Lionel for the following reasons,
A:ill turn the other cheek
B:your entitled to your opinion
C:if i did ignore A and B and did actually complain to the moderator here im not sure they'd take action.
Ill just pray for your soul tomorrow at Mass instead;).
eamo1
19/10/2007, 12:01 AM
Hey Virtruvian Man,what is dawkins pre planned answer to that question??i didnt hear it on that show anyway,all i heard was silence and stuttering,please tell me it though because for real id love to know the answer.
to Skstu,1:my dad was at deaths door a few years ago after a transplant op that had complications,docs gave up hope but we prayed-he recovered and is FINE now,CONICIDENCE???.2:My uncle in laws body was recovered from the rubble of the wtc after the 9/11 attacks,my aunt asked us to pray she would get his body back at least-she did,only 250 out of nearly 2,700 were recovered.THE DAY WE PRAYED A HOLY HOUR WAS THE DAY THEY FOUND THE BODY!!!!COINCIDENCE????
3:my aunt MIRACULOUSLY beating her depression when we started praying,COINCIDENCE????
ive other answers to but they are my top 3 at the moment.
SkStu
19/10/2007, 12:59 AM
Hey Virtruvian Man,what is dawkins pre planned answer to that question??i didnt hear it on that show anyway,all i heard was silence and stuttering,please tell me it though because for real id love to know the answer.
to Skstu,1:my dad was at deaths door a few years ago after a transplant op that had complications,docs gave up hope but we prayed-he recovered and is FINE now,CONICIDENCE???.2:My uncle in laws body was recovered from the rubble of the wtc after the 9/11 attacks,my aunt asked us to pray she would get his body back at least-she did,only 250 out of nearly 2,700 were recovered.THE DAY WE PRAYED A HOLY HOUR WAS THE DAY THEY FOUND THE BODY!!!!COINCIDENCE????
3:my aunt MIRACULOUSLY beating her depression when we started praying,COINCIDENCE????
ive other answers to but they are my top 3 at the moment.
im not saying its a coincidence at all - i believe in the power of prayer - i just asked was it down to a God or catholic God? Your previous post suggested it was your Catholic faith that got your prayers answered. I just dont think anyone needs an organised religion to avail of this...
Lionel Ritchie
19/10/2007, 8:50 AM
In fairness (and I'm not Catholic) the amount of abuse Catholics get on these boards is ridiculous, if it were any other faith you and a few others would have been banned long ago Lionel
That's nonsensical Jebus. it's okay to stick the boot into Socialists, Free-Marketeers, Environmentalists, Developers, Politicians, Criminals, Musicians, Actors and Celebrities but we can't diss faith systems? Balls to that.
I've never abused a Catholic on this board. I don't personalise abuse. I consider myself reasonably qualified and perfectly entitled to have a pop at Catholicism if for no other reason than I was reared and educated as one and most likely couldn't get excommunicated if I tried.
But if, in the interests of even handedness, you'd like to see me have a pop at some of the stuff my Protestant in-laws believe in I'll readily oblige ... like how the probably single most defining difference between Protestantism and Catholicism -that "man is saved by faith alone" is an editorial leap by Martin Luther that would make a modern tabloid editor blush at it's sheer brazeness.
But there's plenty of examples of similar out there. Protestantism is really just a couple of chinese whispers further down the track from Catholicism.
Lim till i die
19/10/2007, 9:02 AM
Hey Virtruvian Man,what is dawkins pre planned answer to that question??i didnt hear it on that show anyway,all i heard was silence and stuttering,please tell me it though because for real id love to know the answer.
Anyone who thinks you need religion to be moral is a borderline sociopath IMO. The very notion is ludicrous
to Skstu,1:my dad was at deaths door a few years ago after a transplant op that had complications,docs gave up hope but we prayed-he recovered and is FINE now,CONICIDENCE???..
Yes.
2:My uncle in laws body was recovered from the rubble of the wtc after the 9/11 attacks,my aunt asked us to pray she would get his body back at least-she did,only 250 out of nearly 2,700 were recovered.THE DAY WE PRAYED A HOLY HOUR WAS THE DAY THEY FOUND THE BODY!!!!COINCIDENCE????
:eek:
Merciful god returning the body
What about all the people who prayed and didn't get bodies back??
Are they less worthy than your family??
3:my aunt MIRACULOUSLY beating her depression when we started praying,COINCIDENCE????
ive other answers to but they are my top 3 at the moment
I'd imagine there's pretty basic physcology at play here :confused:
Anyway here's a little example from my own life:
My aunt is a nun
Her brother died at a young age as the result of a house fire
Should her prayers not have been worth a bit more than your average therby saving her brother??
Or does god choose completely at random??
If so, why??
MyTown
19/10/2007, 9:08 AM
My aunt is a nun
Her brother died at a young age as the result of a house fire
Should her prayers not have been worth a bit more than your average therby saving her brother??
Fair point Ltid - I'm just surprised you couldn't persuade her to kick the habit:(
Your inverse logic about the apparently arbitrary nature of how prayers get answered suggests that God was actually to blame for the hijacking of the planes that flew into to the twin towers resulting in all the horrific loss of life.
But the strongest argument against the power of prayer really has to be the success Fr. Joe has brought to the local soccer club.:D:p
Lionel Ritchie
19/10/2007, 9:11 AM
Just getting back to Dawkins Jewish comments, what do his supporters make of this direct quote from the man?
When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place.
It's mildly anti-semetic, whilst also ignoring large parts of history to make a point against the Jewish lobby (the bold part). I only bring it up because Dawkins supporters tend to believe that the man's word is infalliable and this statement is one of the more ignorant I've read from a 'leading mind' in quite some time.
I'll tell you what I think of the quote. I think you've deliberately taken it out of context to try and portray him as an anti-semite. There's nothing anti-semetic mildly or otherwise in there and I'm unsure what you're referring to when you say he's "ignoring large parts of history to make a point against the Jewish lobby"
He was making a point that there's far more atheists out there than anyone, atheists included, realise and that if they were to somehow "come together" in a block like other groups (primarily religious denominations) do they'd have clout to influence the way the societies they live in are actually run.
Did he say something factually wrong in reference to a powerful Jewish lobby (I prefer Pro-Israel lobby...though, some right wing christian/republican groups aside, this is primarily a Jewish lobby) and it's huge influence on American foreign policy?
Lim till i die
19/10/2007, 9:17 AM
Your inverse logic about the apparently arbitrary nature of how prayers get answered suggests that God was actually to blame for the hijacking of the planes that flew into to the twin towers resulting in all the horrific loss of life.
But how come gods not to blame for the hijacking but when the building renders up a body ( :eek: btw) then it's gods good will??
Yiz can't have it both ways
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