Are we in the weakest qualifying group?

[Cymro]

I decided to start a new thread to avoid going off topic in the other one.


We are as good as out of our qualifying group with three games to go. Also we are in the poorest qualifying group by some distance. Dont try and put a good spin on it, Stan has done every bit as bad as everyone is making out. Our performances have not improved whatsoever, they just havent been as bad as in Nicosia. the only game where we played to our potential was at home to the Czechs when we let two valuable points slip away. Being as good as out of a qualifying campaign is something you expect from very middle of the road teams, such as Belarus, Latvia, Hungary or Bosnia. Not us, we are too damn good for that to happen and Stan has to be held responsible. Simple put we have been dreadful thropughout the campaign and finding any positives is a struggle. And dont come back with the crap that Stan brought through the young players. Had any other manager come in they would have had to use the younger players too.

carloz, I disagree. Look at some of the other qualifying groups around. Most of them have a lot of mediocre teams in them. it's just the nature of the 7/8 team group format.

1 Germany 8 7 1 0 31 4 27 22
2 Czech Republic 9 6 2 1 19 4 15 20
3 Rep of Ireland 9 4 2 3 14 11 3 14
4 Slovakia 9 3 1 5 20 20 0 10
5 Wales 8 3 1 4 13 13 0 10
6 Cyprus 8 3 1 4 13 16 -3 10
7 San Marino 9 0 0 9 1 43 -42 0

This is our group.

European Championship Qualifying : Group C Table
12 September 2007 20:57
P W D L F A GD PTS
1 Greece 8 6 1 1 14 7 7 19
2 Norway 9 5 2 2 20 8 12 17
3 Turkey 8 5 2 1 21 8 13 17
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina 9 4 1 4 14 16 -2 13
5 Hungary 9 3 0 6 8 17 -9 9
6 Malta 8 1 2 5 7 17 -10 5
7 Moldova 9 1 2 6 5 16 -11 5

Is it really weaker than this one?

European Championship Qualifying : Group E Table
12 September 2007 22:00
P W D L F A GD PTS
1 Croatia 9 7 2 0 24 4 20 23
2 England 9 6 2 1 18 2 16 20
3 Russia 9 5 3 1 14 4 10 18
4 Israel 9 5 2 2 17 10 7 17
5 FYR Macedonia 9 2 2 5 7 11 -4 8
6 Estonia 10 1 1 8 3 18 -15 4
7 Andorra 9 0 0 9 2 36 -34 0

Or this one?

European Championship Qualifying : Group G Table
12 September 2007 21:43
P W D L F A GD PTS
1 Romania 8 6 2 0 17 5 12 20
2 Holland 8 6 2 0 11 2 9 20
3 Bulgaria 9 5 3 1 14 6 8 18
4 Slovenia 9 3 1 5 9 12 -3 10
5 Albania 8 2 3 3 8 7 1 9
6 Belarus 9 2 1 6 11 19 -8 7
7 Luxembourg 9 0 0 9 1 20 -19 0

Or even this one?

Alright, it's nowhere near as hard as Scotland's group, I'll give you that.

It's not as easy as some though. In our group we've got a team that are among the very best in the world and one that qualifies almost without fail for every tournament going. We've also got Cyprus who are far from easy to go away to, the fact that Germany dropped points there indicates that. And there are plenty of other examples of 'giant killing' from their history.

Slovakia and ourselves may be rebuilding but I reckon we're still a good deal better than the 5th/6th placed teams in those groups. (Slovakia and/or ourselves will be down to 5th and 6th when you take into account the game in hand we and Cyprus have against each other, which is why I'm saying 5th and 6th, by the way)

I find your statement to be the rather OTT melodrama of a fan of a team who's had a couple of bad games so has to be negative about everything.

Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to have a debate about this where other users can post their thoughts.

[Torn-Ado]

The second group with Greece, Norway, Turkey, Bosnia and Hungary are all weaker sides than Germany and Czech republic but still good enough to come ahead of us if we were in their group.

All the rest have more capable sides weaker sides than the ones in our group. No offence.

[Cymro]

I doubt Hungary would come in ahead of Wales at this stage. And Ireland would certainly finish ahead of Hungary.

Bosnia I don't know that much about, but the only player of theirs I know who plays at a high level of club football is Salihamidzic who plays/played for Bayern. They are probably just overachieving in a weak group.

Norway, Turkey and Greece would likely finish ahead of Wales, but bear in mind not one of them qualified for the last World Cup, and only Greece made it to Euro 2004. Their win there was a once in a century thing, too.

Also, we have recently beaten Bulgaria (3rd in their group) and drawn with Slovenia (4th in theirs).

[Closed Account 2]

Salihamidzic plays for Juve now, he's a great player. They have other decent players like Sergej Barbarez (eg Hamburg SV, now Leverkusen) who played in the 1st half of these qualifiers and then quit, Zvjezdan Misimović (of Nurnburg), Elvir Rahimić (CSKA Moscow), Zlatan Muslimović (of Atalanta). I would say we are probably even with them in terms of strength.

[carloz]

Well its just an opinion i had at the start of the group Cymro. Maybe i was alone in my thinking but before our group started i was very happy and felt we had an excellent chance of qualifying (I was obviously looking at this from an Irish perspective, not a Welsh)

I think group C is definly tougher. I couldnt see Ireland going to Bosnia, Norway or Hungary and taking three points,and wouldnt have great trust playing them in Dublin. i would feel more condident against ye(Welsh) and the Slovaks.
I think we wouldnt have a hope of god in Englands group. im not sure who was the same seed as us, i think it was Russia. I really couldnt see us pipping Croatia or the English, who i think are both superior to the Czechs.
You are probably correct on group G. I think we would be in that group instead of Bulgaria. Id fancy our chances against Romania although they do seem to be imporving and think it probably would be an easier group for Waled. I stand corrected on that.

When i made that point on the other post Cymro i had two different thoughts behind it. Firstly Ireland were third seeds, so obviously we would have 2 higher seeds ahead of us. With 2 teams qualifying i would have been happy if one of those two teams were on a downward spiral. The germans are playing excellent now but i really feel the Czechs were there for the taken...Wales proved that by their performance in Prague.
My second reason was the strength of the weaker teams in our group. On their days Wales and Slovakia are a match for any team but on a personal view i would prefer to have them in my group than teams like Bosnia, Belarus, Norway or Israel. I guess its all about opinions but i was very happy when the group was drawn

[Torn-Ado]

Well its just an opinion i had at the start of the group Cymro. Maybe i was alone in my thinking but before our group started i was very happy and felt we had an excellent chance of qualifying (I was obviously looking at this from an Irish perspective, not a Welsh)

I think group C is definly tougher. I couldnt see Ireland going to Bosnia, Norway or Hungary and taking three points,and wouldnt have great trust playing them in Dublin. i would feel more condident against ye(Welsh) and the Slovaks.
I think we wouldnt have a hope of god in Englands group. im not sure who was the same seed as us, i think it was Russia. I really couldnt see us pipping Croatia or the English, who i think are both superior to the Czechs.
You are probably correct on group G. I think we would be in that group instead of Bulgaria. Id fancy our chances against Romania although they do seem to be imporving and think it probably would be an easier group for Waled. I stand corrected on that.

When i made that point on the other post Cymro i had two different thoughts behind it. Firstly Ireland were third seeds, so obviously we would have 2 higher seeds ahead of us. With 2 teams qualifying i would have been happy if one of those two teams were on a downward spiral. The germans are playing excellent now but i really feel the Czechs were there for the taken...Wales proved that by their performance in Prague.
My second reason was the strength of the weaker teams in our group. On their days Wales and Slovakia are a match for any team but on a personal view i would prefer to have them in my group than teams like Bosnia, Belarus, Norway or Israel. I guess its all about opinions but i was very happy when the group was drawn


Ireland were third seeds, so obviously we would have 2 higher seeds ahead of us.

We were not fourth seeds?

[Cymro]

I'd actually have said C is the weakest of all of them, mainly because Greece are the top seeds and are definitely beatable despite their good results in their group so far. Norway and Turkey are beatable too, even by Wales (pretty sure we've got a reasonable record against both those countries). The top teams have taken points off each other in that group whereas in ours it's been just two virtually dominating the group despite a couple of small hiccups from the Czech Republic.

As for Bosnia they obviously have some decent individual players but I think most of their squad play in lower standard world leagues, most of which are Championship standard or thereabouts which is where most of our side plays. Sure they have a few good individuals but then so do we, we have genuine Premiership quality in a couple of positions. I'd say we're on a par with Bosnia & Herz. at the moment.

[Cymro]

We were not fourth seeds?

No.

Germany were the 1st seeds, Czech the 2nd, you were 3rd, Slovakia 4th, Wales 5th, Cyprus 6th and San Marino 7th.

[Torn-Ado]

No.

Germany were the 1st seeds, Czech the 2nd, you were 3rd, Slovakia 4th, Wales 5th, Cyprus 6th and San Marino 7th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2008_qualifying

No man.

I was right.

:cool: :)

[Cymro]

Slovakia certainly didn't defend like a side that came out of pot 3 on Wednesday. So my mistake was understandable. :D

[Torn-Ado]

Slovakia certainly didn't defend like a side that came out of pot 3 on Wednesday. So my mistake was understandable. :D

No worries. Its a learning curve. You'll soon learn that I'm always right ;)

Another interesting point is that the Czechs and not the Germans were top seeds.

[Saint Tom]

presumably because the germans did not need to qualify for the last championship ie the world cup they hosted?

[holidaysong]

I agree with Cymro that we are not in the weakest group, I think this is the group that Greece currently lead..

[pete]

We may not be in the weakest group but it is still weak. We also have little or any hope of qualifying & still 3 games left in the group. This indicates Staunton has brought us backwards.

[Bungle]

I would consider an ageing Czech team to be the weakest first seeds by far. To balance this, the Germans are easily the hardest second seeds.

The Slovaks have shown themselves to be the poorest thirds seeds. In fairness, I would consider Wales among the best fifth seeds (they wouldn't be out of place in the fourth batch of seeds) and Cyprus are by far the most difficult sixth seeds. San Marino are easily the worst team in Europe. In contrast, I wouldn't bet too much on us going to places like Azerbijan and being too comfortable.

Overall, I would say it's not an easy group but if we wanted to qualify (which I feel is still what I expect of us) then this was a golden opportunity missed. The Czechs were there for the taking.

[Morbo]

I think Group C would have been harder in fairness and I'm glad we didn't get that group. Its bad enough being effectively eliminated with 3 games to go but imagine adding a hammering by England on top of all that

[Stuttgart88]

We may not be in the weakest group but it is still weak. We also have little or any hope of qualifying & still 3 games left in the group. This indicates Staunton has brought us backwards.It was mentioned in another thread but international football in general is weak.

International football, bar the actual finals themselves, is massively subordinated to the the club game. That's why this group was such an open goal missed. First place was always going to the Germans. The only reason a draw at home to Czechs was accepted was because the players played like they cared after the shame of Cyprus. They knew that their status in the eyes of the public depended on it. In ordinary circumstances we'd all have been frustrated that we blew a golden opportunity to claim a win.

1-0 wins against Wales & Cyprus are all well and good if other results are good but when you're out with 3 games to go and these results are the highlight of 12 months of football then it's a grim situation.

Anyway, on the bright side, Ireland's game against Georgia in the rugby tonight ought to allow soccer to reclaim about 50,000 10 year olds from rugby!

[TommyT]

Our group got a lot weaker the second Nedved retired !

Still not the weakest though

[carloz]

Well we shall go through our goup then. I obviously made a mistake thinking we were third seeds

Czech Republic after Greece were the poorest first seeds, and as was pointed out already, were very beatable the second Nedved retired.

Germany were probably the second most difficult second seed we could have got, after Italy. Probably the best second seed we could have hoped for were Turkey or Poland.

Slovakia were IMO easily the poorest third seed side, and were ranked bottom in the third pot. Serbia, Russia, Denmark, Norway, Bulgaria and Ukraine were the other teams. All very difficult and im sure we would all agree that Slovakia would be an easier place to travel to than any of those.

We were the fourth seeds. We were the second strongrst fourth seeds after Bosnia and Herzegovina

I believe that we could have got tougher fiifth seeds than Wales. Having said that Wales were prpobably one of the toughest fifth seeds. The fifth seeds included Hungary, Finland, Estonia, Wales, Lithuania, Albania & Iceland. Finland, Albania and Iceland have proved themselves more than capable i recent years. Id expect Ireland to beat all of these teams at home but as far as away matches are concerned i would prefer to have to travel to Cardiff to get three points than Helsinki or Tirana at the moment.

From the sixth seeds we got one of the weakest teams in the pot. Lets not get taken aay by Cyprus because of that dark night in Nicosia. There were much stronger teams in that pot. Sixth seeds included Georgia, Macedonia, Belarus, Armenia, Northern Ireland, Cyprus & Moldova. Everyone of them teams with the exception of Moldova are weaker teams than Cyprus. Armenia have surprised people in this campaign and would be a tougher away game IMO.

Again we got the weakest seventh seed. Only Luxembourg can claim to be as bad as San Marino. Here are the seventh seeds, Liechtenstein, Azerbaijan, Andorra, Malta, Faroe Islands, Kazakhstan, Luxembourg & San-Marino.

I think when the group is analyzed like this, with the exception of Germany and probably Wales, we could not have wished for a better draw.

[Cymro]

I believe that we could have got tougher fiifth seeds than Wales. Having said that Wales were prpobably one of the toughest fifth seeds. The fifth seeds included Hungary, Finland, Estonia, Wales, Lithuania, Albania & Iceland. Finland, Albania and Iceland have proved themselves more than capable i recent years. Id expect Ireland to beat all of these teams at home but as far as away matches are concerned i would prefer to have to travel to Cardiff to get three points than Helsinki or Tirana at the moment.

From the sixth seeds we got one of the weakest teams in the pot. Lets not get taken away by Cyprus because of that dark night in Nicosia. There were much stronger teams in that pot. Sixth seeds included Georgia, Macedonia, Belarus, Armenia, Northern Ireland, Cyprus & Moldova. Everyone of them teams with the exception of Moldova are weaker teams than Cyprus. Armenia have surprised people in this campaign and would be a tougher away game IMO.

I disagree with this-I would say of the fifth seeds maybe Finland are a better team than us. The others are on a par or below us. Albania are a reasonable team but are fairly limited individually.

As for Cyprus I strongly disagree. Their away form's sh1t but they can get results against genuine top sides at home. They're the only team to have taken any points off Germany in this group ffs. Not a team you'd want to go away to. I know you'd hardly relish a trip to any of the others, but you can get results. We've played Belarus four times in the last decade or so and got 9 points if my memory serves me right. We got absolutely tonked last time we went to Cyprus. It was 1-0 but could have been a lot more if not for a good performance from Price in the goal. We were never in it. Obviously we'll hope to be closer when we have to play them competitively but I'd never take them for granted.

Cyprus could feasibly finish third in this group, although it's rather unlikely.

Northern Ireland have had a good campaign and are probably a tougher task. That's it though, out of the sixth seeds.

[carloz]

I disagree with this-I would say of the fifth seeds maybe Finland are a better team than us. The others are on a par or below us. Albania are a reasonable team but are fairly limited individually.

As for Cyprus I strongly disagree. Their away form's sh1t but they can get results against genuine top sides at home. They're the only team to have taken any points off Germany in this group ffs. Not a team you'd want to go away to. I know you'd hardly relish a trip to any of the others, but you can get results. We've played Belarus four times in the last decade or so and got 9 points if my memory serves me right. We got absolutely tonked last time we went to Cyprus. It was 1-0 but could have been a lot more if not for a good performance from Price in the goal. We were never in it. Obviously we'll hope to be closer when we have to play them competitively but I'd never take them for granted.

Cyprus could feasibly finish third in this group, although it's rather unlikely.

Northern Ireland have had a good campaign and are probably a tougher task. That's it though, out of the sixth seeds.


well im talking about my opinion at the start of the group, obviously Cyprus have come on in this group. But out of these choices Georgia, Macedonia, Belarus, Armenia, Northern Ireland, Cyprus & Moldova, Cyprus would have been my second choice for our group after Moldova. Yes they are difficult to beat in Nicosia but they are not as technical as Belarus and in a qualifier Minsk would be alot more hostile than Cyprus, and Macedonia and Northern Ireland would be much tougher places to go to get a result. Hell we have had more trouble than anyone in Cyprus but if i was given those choices for the World Cup qulaifiers, Moldova and maybe Armenia and Georgia would be the only ones id consider as possibly an easier draw

[OwlsFan]

I see the "great" Eddie O'Sullivan almost met his San Marino last night. Can happen to a bishop as they say. WOnder are the rugby fans calling for the sacking of him and the IRFU?

Our group probably has two of the strongest top seeds and as 4th and 5th seeds Slovakia and Wales are tough enough. We were probably one of the weaker 3rd seeds to be honest

[green army]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2008_qualifying

No man.

I was right.

:cool: :)

If we had of beat the swiss in the last game of the last qualifying campaign, we would have been 3rd seeds at the expense of slovakia.

[tetsujin1979]

Anyway, on the bright side, Ireland's game against Georgia in the rugby tonight ought to allow soccer to reclaim about 50,000 10 year olds from rugby!

Famous last words there Stutts

[carloz]

Our group probably has two of the strongest top seeds and as 4th and 5th seeds Slovakia and Wales are tough enough. We were probably one of the weaker 3rd seeds to be honest

errr, no it hasn't. Our group has the second weakest top seed in the Czech Republic. Slovakia are also the poorest 3rd seeds by quite a distance(we were actually 4th seeds for this group).

[OwlsFan]

My mistake about Ireland's seeding but Czech/Germany combination is stronger than any of the top seeds in the groups listed at the start of this thread. Other than against Germany, I wonder when the last time was the Czechs lost at home in a competitive game. We were always going to have to perform miracles to finish ahead of either of them and a loss in Cyrpus spellt the end of any such miracle.

[Irish_Praha]

If we had of beat the swiss in the last game of the last qualifying campaign, we would have been 3rd seeds at the expense of slovakia.

If that happened we would also have qualified for the playoffs against Turkey (I think) and if we qualified and we got to the the second round or 1/4 final of the WC we could have been second seeds, or am I totally wrong?
If Kerr wasn't so negative we wouldn't have to be listening to this "building for the future" sh!te. The building would already have been well under way before this campaign started, but that's for another thread.

[Cymro]

well im talking about my opinion at the start of the group, obviously Cyprus have come on in this group. But out of these choices Georgia, Macedonia, Belarus, Armenia, Northern Ireland, Cyprus & Moldova, Cyprus would have been my second choice for our group after Moldova. Yes they are difficult to beat in Nicosia but they are not as technical as Belarus and in a qualifier Minsk would be alot more hostile than Cyprus, and Macedonia and Northern Ireland would be much tougher places to go to get a result. Hell we have had more trouble than anyone in Cyprus but if i was given those choices for the World Cup qulaifiers, Moldova and maybe Armenia and Georgia would be the only ones id consider as possibly an easier draw

So what you're saying is not actually that we are in the weakest qualifying group, ie the quote of yours I put in bold at the start of this thread, but basically that you underestimated a lot of teams in it at the time of the draw.

We agree then, more or less.

Minsk is a difficult place to go to but we've never been outclassed by Belarus in the same way Cyprus beat us last time out.

[carloz]

So what you're saying is not actually that we are in the weakest qualifying group, ie the quote of yours I put in bold at the start of this thread, but basically that you underestimated a lot of teams in it at the time of the draw.

We agree then, more or less.
Not at all. i believed we were blessed with an easy draw when the draw was made. I still feel we were probably in the best group but i underestimeated Germany( which i shouldnt have really) and to a lesser extent Cyprus. I think the rest of the teams have proven themselves to be the standard that i taught they were when the group was made. The Czechs were every bit as poor as i taught they would be, despite the fact they have qualified as good as. Apart from one match against Slovakia they have been quite poor. Slovakia were worse than i taught they would be. I have already mentioned my opinion on Germany and Cyprus. I felt other than the match against us and Slovakia at home the welsh have looked decent, partcivlarly against the Czechs. The point im trying ot make is the reason we(Ireland) are practically out of the group is due to our own failings, and we missed a golden opportunity. I still think looking through the groups, i wouldnt have swapped with any other 4th seeds and that is my main argument. You are viewing it from a Welsh perspective and obviously have different opinons than me.

[carloz]

My mistake about Ireland's seeding but Czech/Germany combination is stronger than any of the top seeds in the groups listed at the start of this thread. Other than against Germany, I wonder when the last time was the Czechs lost at home in a competitive game. We were always going to have to perform miracles to finish ahead of either of them and a loss in Cyrpus spellt the end of any such miracle.

why were we going to have to perfrom miracles against the Czechs??? This isnt the Czechs of the era 2000-2004 Nedved led team. They are a poor shadow of that team and Wales performances aginst them, and also Germany and cyprus's performances in Prague have proved that case.

[Stuttgart88]

Well, Jonathon Douglas beating Petr Cech from 12 yards (he saved it with his foot going the wrong way) and Robbie Keane scoring from 10 yards would have helped. So too would have been any result in Cyprus. Neither would have been a miracle.

In fairness, Czech game at home is a possible example of Stan getting it right and learning from a bad mistake. I'd blame player errors for failing to pick up a win at home.

[Cymro]

Not at all. i believed we were blessed with an easy draw when the draw was made. I still feel we were probably in the best group but i underestimeated Germany( which i shouldnt have really) and to a lesser extent Cyprus. I think the rest of the teams have proven themselves to be the standard that i taught they were when the group was made. The Czechs were every bit as poor as i taught they would be, despite the fact they have qualified as good as. Apart from one match against Slovakia they have been quite poor. Slovakia were worse than i taught they would be. I have already mentioned my opinion on Germany and Cyprus. I felt other than the match against us and Slovakia at home the welsh have looked decent, partcivlarly against the Czechs. The point im trying ot make is the reason we(Ireland) are practically out of the group is due to our own failings, and we missed a golden opportunity. I still think looking through the groups, i wouldnt have swapped with any other 4th seeds and that is my main argument. You are viewing it from a Welsh perspective and obviously have different opinons than me.

Well you haven't really been able to adequately back up your previous statement that we are 'in the weakest qualifying group by far'. That's what I was disagreeing with, I didn't say I thought Ireland would not qualify or that it was not a good chance for you to qualify. However when you look at the other groups there are some groups I'd rather be in than this one that's for sure.

[carloz]

Well you haven't really been able to adequately back up your previous statement that we are 'in the weakest qualifying group by far'. That's what I was disagreeing with, I didn't say I thought Ireland would not qualify or that it was not a good chance for you to qualify. However when you look at the other groups there are some groups I'd rather be in than this one that's for sure.
Well thats your opinion. I agreed on you with one group. I would take Greece's group over ours probably just, i think they are in Group C but i may be mistaken. I think i have justified my opinion. I said i believed we got the second weakest 1st seeds in the Czechs. I believe we got the weakest 3rd seed in the Slovaks. I believe that there were trickier teams than the Welsh in the 5th and i believe that San Marino are the weakest in Europe...though we didnt prove that:mad:. Looking at it that way i believe it is a weakish group but maybe i have a problem of thinking Ireland are better than we actually are. there are many groups where we could have used the excuse that there were at least two superior teams to ireland. i firmly dont believe this was the case in this group. the standings prove me wrong but thats my belief