Defibrillators

[Ringo]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fears-after-another-boy-dies-suddenly-1074141.html

Seems to have been a large spate of these in the last week, very sad. We have three of these in work, just wondering how many clubs have them, i know Dublin City didn't. at about £950, surely, every school, football club, business, could have one. I know theyre not always going to help, but theres a good percentage that they could help in.

http://www.heartstarthome.com/content/uk_heartstart_featured.asp

[micls]

City had one donated a few weeks back, by a fan whose brother(?) died young.

[Seagull]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fears-after-another-boy-dies-suddenly-1074141.html

Seems to have been a large spate of these in the last week, very sad. We have three of these in work, just wondering how many clubs have them, i know Dublin City didn't. at about £950, surely, every school, football club, business, could have one. I know theyre not always going to help, but theres a good percentage that they could help in.

http://www.heartstarthome.com/content/uk_heartstart_featured.asp

Article in the Tribune today has a doctor saying you only have 3-4 minutes to resuscitate someone after cardiac arrest and questioning the use of defibrillators as resuscitation after this time leads to brain damage. It seems to me you'd need a lot of training on the use of these and would have to have it in a very accessible place with trained people constantly on hand.

[SligoBrewer]

at about £950, surely, every school, football club, business, could have one. I know theyre not always going to help, but theres a good percentage that they could help in.



sorry ringo..

apostrophe s in title to be changed please.

i'd like to question the use of these as well..there being seen as a be all and end all after the death of cormac mcanallen.

would someone like to live if they knew they'd have major brain damage?

[pete]

...surely, every school, football club, business, could have one.

Where do you stop then. Should every home have one?

I think all eL sides should have one just like they should have doctor on duty at all games.

Moderator: Moving this to eL forum

[Ringo]

Where do you stop then. Should every home have one?

I think all eL sides should have one just like they should have doctor on duty at all games.

Moderator: Moving this to eL forum

They won't let you shock someone on less they need it. I think all sports clubs should definitely have them. It won't save every life, but if it even saves one.

[Sam_Heggy]

Where do you stop then. Should every home have one?

I think all eL sides should have one just like they should have doctor on duty at all games.
Moderator: Moving this to eL forum

This should be more of a priority, I dont know if Ive heard of a Doc at any games in an official cappicity. I remember a few seasons ago, where it was asked over the PA if there was a doctor at the game could he come to the clubhouse.

[SligoBrewer]

why is this in the eL section?

[Tis-smeee]

This should be more of a priority, I dont know if Ive heard of a Doc at any games in an official cappicity. I remember a few seasons ago, where it was asked over the PA if there was a doctor at the game could he come to the clubhouse.

A doctor has to be in attendance at every game otherwise it is a violation of club licensing, at the rsc there is always a st johns ambulance also, dunno if they would have a defibrillator

[The Rebel Ram]

They are not hard to be trained up on and are definetily worth it. They can improve your chances of survival drastically.
In Cobh one was put into the local taxi kiosk and within 6weeks 2 people were saved. I'm not sure if Ramblers have one but think the FAI should at least purchase one for each club with the club paying for training maybe???
No need for a doctor, first aider will do and there are plenty of them around.

[Sniffer]

From today's Indo....
FITTINGLY, given recent tragic events, Alan Byrne, the FAI's progressive medical director, is organising a pilot health programme for four eircom League clubs. Under the scheme, each club -- to be selected at random -- will get a defibrillator and six personnel trained in basic life support.

The programme, endorsed by the FAI and certified by the Irish Heart Foundation, is for all 22 clubs to have a defibrillator, complete with trained staff, in place for 2008.

Byrne has also organised the first seminar for the 22 doctors attached to eircom League clubs. The seminar, on September 25, will cover the medical regulations and the new UEFA guidelines relating to the medical care of players, particularly in relation to heart health.

For 2008, all first team players in the eircom League must have a proper medical history including a cardiological examination and a resting ECG (Electro cardiogram). The qualifiers for next year's UEFA competitions must ensure all players undergo an echocardiogram.

[The Rebel Ram]

From today's Indo....
FITTINGLY, given recent tragic events, Alan Byrne, the FAI's progressive medical director, is organising a pilot health programme for four eircom League clubs. Under the scheme, each club -- to be selected at random -- will get a defibrillator and six personnel trained in basic life support.

The programme, endorsed by the FAI and certified by the Irish Heart Foundation, is for all 22 clubs to have a defibrillator, complete with trained staff, in place for 2008.

Byrne has also organised the first seminar for the 22 doctors attached to eircom League clubs. The seminar, on September 25, will cover the medical regulations and the new UEFA guidelines relating to the medical care of players, particularly in relation to heart health.

For 2008, all first team players in the eircom League must have a proper medical history including a cardiological examination and a resting ECG (Electro cardiogram). The qualifiers for next year's UEFA competitions must ensure all players undergo an echocardiogram.

Great news!!!

[alansmithccfc]

Even aul team im playing for have one.

[onceahoop]

My own club is thinking of getting one and a local GA club have one. There was a girl on the radio recently explaining about them and they seem quite simple to work after training. The machine apparently tells you what to do and when to do it. I'm not totaly sure but I think the one in Dublin Airport has saved about nine lives since its introduction

[michaelguineys]

City had one donated a few weeks back, by a fan whose brother(?) died young.

Ya that was Stephen Comerford, his brother Gary died whilst playing football vwhen he was only 15

[pineapple stu]

I dont know if Ive heard of a Doc at any games in an official cappicity.
A lot of clubs don't have a doctor; utterly stupid. UCD's doctor has often had to stand in as our opposition's doctor as well.

Most St John vehicles at this stage carry defibs.

The notion that we shouldn't have them at grounds because people might survive is possibly one of the silliest arguments I have ever heard here. You do have 3-4 minutes to get the shock in, but only if no oxygen therapy and CPR is administered first (whole point of CPR is to keep the brain alive until further help arrives), and with the St John or whoever on the sidelines, that should be easily doable.

That said, they don't help in every occasion. Some cardiacs are always going to end in death no matter what.

[Stato]

I think all eL sides should have one just like they should have doctor on duty at all games.


I know clubs are obliged under Club Licensing to have a doctor at all their matches home AND away but do Bohs ever have a doctor on duty at their games? When they played Pats in Dalymount earlier this season one of their players got what looked like a serious injury late on in the game and it was Pats' doctor that had to go out on the pitch to treat him.

And, as far as I know, Pats have a defib in place this season, I think one of the former board members donated it.

[Paddyfield]

I actually spotted the GUFC doctor carrying one (along with his case) in Terryland last Friday. I never noticed it before and I though it was a pizza delivery bag :cool:

Two weeks ago, a spectator collapsed at a GAA match in Tuam Stadium and there was no ambulance or any medical professionals in attendence. The guy survived the incident but it goes to show how important it is to regulate for it. Many shopping centres and theatres have a defibrillator for emergencies.

[Snoop Drog]

My local cinema has one.

[Dyl10]

I don't note if it as been stated, but Dublin Airport have one.
It has been used 4 times with 4 saves.

Surely the big sports clubs around Ireland should have one.
1k really isn't that much considering places that host alot of sports will probably have someone trained in first-aid on site already

[smellyfeet]

I was trained to use Defib only last week. Its a must for EL clubs to have one. you never know when it might be needed.

[onceahoop]

I don't note if it as been stated, but Dublin Airport have one.
It has been used 4 times with 4 saves.

Surely the big sports clubs around Ireland should have one.
1k really isn't that much considering places that host alot of sports will probably have someone trained in first-aid on site already

The price stated on the radio was, I think, 2-3k depending on what extras you wanted. Anyone who's club has one know the cost.

[osarusan]

Most train station in Japan have one. They are covered with pictorial instructions, to save reading time. All students of driving schools are trained to use one. It is actually quite simple (in a practice situation at least).

[Copa Mundial]

As a person who is fully trained in the use of AED and has had to use one, i would encourage as many if not every club/sporting organisation to invest in an Automated External Defibrillator.

There is a cost attached obviously but surely it is worth the investment considering the tragic events of the past week or so. Should something happen it gives the casualty a very high chance of survival.

Basic life support is not enough if somebody is to use it. There is a cost involved to get personnel fully qualified to use a Defib and there is a cost involved in renewing your qualification every 90 days approx.

[smellyfeet]

The price stated on the radio was, I think, 2-3k depending on what extras you wanted. Anyone who's club has one know the cost.

2000 euro is what i was told the cost of one was.

[monutdfc]

There was a Shamrock Rovers fan on here recently (can't remember which thread, but it was something to do with the GAA) saying that most (all?) LSL clubs have one; his point was that this was an LSL or FAI initiative done quietly some time ago while the GAA were blowing their trumpet about getting some.

[onceahoop]

There was a Shamrock Rovers fan on here recently (can't remember which thread, but it was something to do with the GAA) saying that most (all?) LSL clubs have one; his point was that this was an LSL or FAI initiative done quietly some time ago while the GAA were blowing their trumpet about getting some.

Don't know about that but I do know that the FAI have initiated a programme to encourage clubs to get their schoolboy members between the ages of 14-16 to be checked out by their GP.

[Ringo]

http://www.defibrillators-uk.co.uk/html/heartstart_m5068a.html

We got ours here £945 +vat.


http://www.defibrillators-uk.co.uk/busbro.pdf

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwqlcwaumh/

Mr Smith said all local sports clubs should have access to and be trained in the use of defibrillators, but he made no mention of whether the Government would fund such a scheme

[John83]

I was just looking up the success rates of these devices.


In casinos — where AED-armed security agents monitor people with video surveillance — victims shocked within three minutes had a 74% survival rate. Airline passengers who suffer sudden cardiac arrest and are shocked by flight attendants have a 40% survival rate.(source (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/heart/2002-05-09-defibrillators.htm))

I seems reasonable to require them in grounds. Certainly a bit more important than insisting there be enough hot water for the ref to have a hot shower, or that accounts be in the appropriate colour pen.

[pineapple stu]

Most train station in Japan have one. They are covered with pictorial instructions, to save reading time.
Defib I'm trained with just tells you what to do. "Place pads on casualty's bare chest. Plug in pads connector next to flashing yellow light", followed by "Shock advised" if a shock is advised. You don't even need training in it (which is the whole point).

[smellyfeet]

This is absolutely and totally incorrect. A person that has had absolutely no medical training whatsoever could use one of these things, no problem. There is a diagram on each one, you place the pads as indicated on the diagram and deliver the shock.

It seems easy enough, but in reall life the situation is totally different.
Patients face turns different colour,lips,eyes and nose can turn blue, they usually get sick also they sweat like mad..

Ive been trained but can't say that i would cope if i was called upon

[osarusan]

also there may be some legal ramifications for a defibrillator being used incorrectly/unessecarily.

[Ringo]

also there may be some legal ramifications for a defibrillator being used incorrectly/unessecarily.

It checks the body & won't let you shock on less the person needs one. It also talks you through mouth to mouth & beats a rhythm for cpr.

http://www.heartstarthome.com/animated_demo/uk_animated_demo.asp#

[pineapple stu]

also there may be some legal ramifications for a defibrillator being used incorrectly/unessecarily.
There are next to no legal ramifications for a lay person using a defib incorrectly. Good Samaritan principle. Basically, if you go to save someone's life, shock him, but maybe took too long and he came back with brain damage, you've still saved his life and he'd want to be one ungrateful little sh!t to sue you for anything.

Worst case scenario if you do nothing is the person dies, so you can't really do any harm.

As Ringo said, the machine makes the call as to whether to shock the person, not you. It won't shock someone who doesn't need it.


It seems easy enough, but in reall life the situation is totally different.
It really is. Nearly had to shock someone once (someone else got there first), but I was rather nervous still! Also, people really flollop when they're shocked - a big jump with all limp limbs.

Anyway, bottom line is there's no reason for any eL ground to be without a defib. However, you can argue that the one in the ambulance you're paying for should be sufficient.

[Sniffer]

We need to think seriously about this. If managers realise that they can get their hands on a defibrillator at half time there could be carnage in dressing rooms at the break.:p

[soccerc]

would someone like to live if they knew they'd have major brain damage?

Can only speak from personal experience here, I am delighted my wife survived a brain haemorrhage and the brain damage subsequent to surgery, and I know she is too, despite the disabilities.

She was fully informed of the possible consequences of the surgery and those of not going under the knife, i.e. death.

[osarusan]

There are next to no legal ramifications for a lay person using a defib incorrectly. Good Samaritan principle. Basically, if you go to save someone's life, shock him, but maybe took too long and he came back with brain damage, you've still saved his life and he'd want to be one ungrateful little sh!t to sue you for anything.

There are some ungrateful sh!ts around who would do just that.

Is the Good Samaritan principle a legal concept? It sounds pretty easy to defeat legally.

[passinginterest]

There are some ungrateful sh!ts around who would do just that.

Is the Good Samaritan principle a legal concept? It sounds pretty easy to defeat legally.

I know when I worked in Xtra Vision we were warned not to administer any kind of first aid to anybody. We were told that even giving someone with a small cut a plaster could have legal ramifications if the cut became infected etc.

We were advised that if anyone asked for medical treatment, or needed it, to call an ambulance and wait for it.

I'd imagine if a company is that worried about giving someone a plaster there would have to be some serious issues around using a defib.

[Dodge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_samaritan_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_intervention

No mention of Ireland

[pineapple stu]

Good Samaritan Bill 2005 (http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0611/D.0611.200512060029.html) being discussed in the Dáil.

Didn't read through it, but I was told when I was being trained in the AED that the principle applied in Ireland.

It's happened once in England - a man fell from a bike in one of those motorcycle scramble things, and was dragged out of the way by the St John crew. He was paralysed because of it, and sued St John in England, but the judge ruled that if he'd been left, there was a bike about to land on him and do a lot worse than paralyse him. Got thrown out of court, essentially, for being an ungrateful ****. English law usually acts as the starting point here, although it hasn't been tested as far as I know.

[MojoPin]

i did a first adi course before and was trold that under irish law if you give first aid to somebody (well cpr or diffib) they cannot sue you afterward for damage caused... i.e if you give someone cpr or the heimlik (spell that) and break their ribs tehy have no legal standing against you..

but i suppose in the case of a defibrillator they might have a case against somebody if they were shocked unintentionall becasue of misuse of the equipment or if the equipment was faulty....?????

[pineapple stu]

The machines will not shock someone who doesn't need it. That's the whole point. If the machine's faulty, that's hardly your fault.

[MojoPin]

ya but it doesnt stop the person who was been shocked as a result of a fault sue SOMEBODY like i said.

[Dodge]

ya but it doesnt stop the person who was been shocked as a result of a fault sue SOMEBODY like i said.

but it stops them winning

Anyone can sue me for something I didn't do. I'd be glad of the time off work

[onceahoop]

Good Samaritan Bill 2005 (http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0611/D.0611.200512060029.html) being discussed in the Dáil.

Didn't read through it, but I was told when I was being trained in the AED that the principle applied in Ireland.

It's happened once in England - a man fell from a bike in one of those motorcycle scramble things, and was dragged out of the way by the St John crew. He was paralysed because of it, and sued St John in England, but the judge ruled that if he'd been left, there was a bike about to land on him and do a lot worse than paralyse him. Got thrown out of court, essentially, for being an ungrateful ****. English law usually acts as the starting point here, although it hasn't been tested as far as I know.

I've seen English case law quoted in written judgements from the courts.

The defib is practically idiot proof. Tells you what to do and when or if to do it. Wonder could junior/schoolboy clubs get grants fom the local councils for them

[pete]

Not wanting to make light of a serious topic but I only remember the Good Samaritan Law from Seinfeld. :)

[GreenStar]

The company that supplies them is based in Stillorgan in Dublin. If anyone wants their details PM me (because I don't want to be seen to be advertising, because I'm not! We have 2 in our job and my mate works there and he got us a deal)

[Sam_Heggy]

This issue has been raised again up with us. Some of you may know but, a man unfortunately lost his life in the terraces at Finn Park from a heart attack. There was a defibrillator in the ambulance but it was in vain.

The club will be sending a few reps to Dublin on a coarse to use these defribrillators in the next few weeks. They are also in the process of purchasing one for Finn Park. I think it should be made compulsary for license requirements for next season. Maybe the FAI could use all these fines they're handing out to purchase a defribrillator for each club.

[Magicme]

The FAI purchased 4 defibrillators recently and held a "competition" between clubs for them. 2 were for Premier & 2 were for 1st division and they are going to provide the training. I dont think all clubs put their names forward for them, which is a disgrace if that is the case, but I am delighted that Monaghan United were awarded one in the draw. Myself and a few others will be taking up the training.

AFAIK there are plans to provide all clubs with them in the coming year too.

[Sam_Heggy]

The FAI purchased 4 defibrillators recently and held a "competition" between clubs for them. 2 were for Premier & 2 were for 1st division and they are going to provide the training. I dont think all clubs put their names forward for them, which is a disgrace if that is the case, but I am delighted that Monaghan United were awarded one in the draw. Myself and a few others will be taking up the training.

I think Harps were the other one in the first div, im not sure though. I thought it was just for training, and 2 clubs at a time. :confused: