Another British isles discussion

[Block G Raptor]

Hate the way the brits use the term Eire because they can't bring themselves to say Republic. but on the other hand it does say eire on our coins does it not

[GavinZac]

Hate the way the brits use the term Eire because they can't bring themselves to say Republic. but on the other hand it does say eire on our coins does it not

id imagine its just because its shorter than saying "the republic of ireland" and they quite legitimately have to differentiate between our nation and the part of their nation that is called ireland.

[dahamsta]

Jesus, is this thread still running? :rolleyes:

[rebelarmyexile]

We are Ireland, or The Republic of Ireland, part of one of the British Isles.

Finally someone with a sense of clarity

we Irish, English, Scots and Welsh are Britons, in the historical sense. Then the Normans (French now) invaded bla de blah

[-lamb-]

does nobody read the whole thread anymore. We've established that

thats what i said and you poo pooed it!


Thats not strictly true either.

The name of the state is Ireland.

The words republic were only brought in when we left the commonwelath

The distinction bit above is wikipedia ********. There's nothing official in it

[gael353]

wrong. its the british isles, because britons lived here, as they did in britanny.

wrong. Eir is an indo-european root word for "land", and it is what the people who the Romans called the scotti and the greeks called the iverna, called this island. the norse and normans turned up and added -land to the end of it, the same as they did for angle - land and scotti - land, aswell as is - land and grun -land.

the fact that the islands are called the british isles (of gallic origin), should please you as opposed to the alternatives, e.g. the Saxon isles. that'd go down well i'd say.


Read my second post Gav, you may be right i may be right but its all opinion and im not gonna start by say "wrong" to everything you say

[Lionel Ritchie]

its the british isles, because britons lived here, as they did in britanny.
True ...and not only that but the term "Great Britain" has nothing to do with little englanders thinking they're country's the dogs. It's a straight translation of Grand Bretagne -the expanded "liebensraum" if you will of the Breton empire.


...and it is what the people who the Romans called the scotti and the greeks called the iverna, called this island. the norse and normans turned up and added -land to the end of it, the same as they did for angle - land and scotti - land, aswell as is - land and grun -land.
. I read a while back that the Romans referred to Ireland as Scottia Major and to Scotland as Scottia Minor. Found that peculiar but there you go.

[pineapple stu]

True ...and not only that but the term "Great Britain" has nothing to do with little englanders thinking they're country's the dogs. It's a straight translation of Grand Bretagne -the expanded "liebensraum" if you will of the Breton empire.
Great Britain is to differentiate from Little Britain, not Brittany. To do with size of area.


I read a while back that the Romans referred to Ireland as Scottia Major and to Scotland as Scottia Minor. Found that peculiar but there you go.
Never heard that. Scotland is Alba and Ireland is Hibernia?

[onceahoop]

Jesus, is this thread still running? :rolleyes:

Had the same thought myself boss when I saw the thread back up there.

Maybe we can petition our TD's to table a Constitutional Amendment for Eire, Republic of Ireland, Scotia Minor, Ireland, Southern Ireland...............
Let the peolple speak. Then again, if that happens this thread could just run and run and run. There's times when I just need a dark room to lie down in.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Great Britain is to differentiate from Little Britain, not Brittany. To do with size of area.
..what like? ...the TV show?:)

[galwayhoop]

Hate the way the brits use the term Eire because they can't bring themselves to say Republic.

personally I would much rather Éire than when British TV pundits refer to us as 'The Republic'. Preferably Ireland or Republic of Ireland but not 'The Republic' ffs. I think that this is the most condescending description of all as ironically I feel that it is excluding us from even being Ireland in the first place. It's only something small and I'm sure it doesn't bother most people but there you go....

iirc on Sky's highlights on Wednesday NI were refered to as 'The Irish' and we were referred to as 'The Republic'!!!

[Lionel Ritchie]

personally I would much rather Éire than when British TV pundits refer to us as 'The Republic'. Preferably Ireland or Republic of Ireland but not 'The Republic' ffs. I think that this is the most condescending description of all as ironically I feel that it is excluding us from even being Ireland in the first place. It's only something small and I'm sure it doesn't bother most people but there you go....

Irish Republic gets under my skin for the reasons you outline here. Usually in the context of the term being bandied about by a Unionist politician* or a Tory MP. I have a niggling suspicion it's used as a passive slur similar to the way Russians habitually stick a "The" in front of Ukraine ...like it's a homestead or a reservation.

*in an interview with RTE radio a while back a DUP representative (I think it was Mervyn Storey) pulled up the interviewer for referring to his jurisdiction as "The North" and insisting she call it "Northern Ireland". Yer wan apologised, shrugged it off and got on with it only for the DUP guy to go off on one with multiple references to this mythical "Irish Republic". I half hoped she might ask him to watch his Ps and Qs while he was at it but in an interview situation...

[galwayhoop]

Irish Republic gets under my skin for the reasons you outline here. Usually in the context of the term being bandied about by a Unionist politician* or a Tory MP. I have a niggling suspicion it's used as a passive slur similar to the way Russians habitually stick a "The" in front of Ukraine ...like it's a homestead or a reservation.

good post.

The Irish Republic does indeed sound like a self-declared area which is not a real country at all.

I met a Ukrainian woman a few years back and she absolutely HATED her country being called 'The Ukraine' and made no apologies for it. If I ever said it she retorted by saying 'The Ireland' and on hearing the stupidity of that I refrained and called her country by it's name instead of putting a prefix to it!

Although I never went into dept about why she hated it or how it came to pass your explaination above makes sense.

EDIT - Source - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
In English, the country is sometimes referred to with the definite article, as the Ukraine, similar to the Netherlands, the Gambia, the Sudan or the Congo. However, usage without the article is now more frequent, and has become established in diplomacy and journalism since the country's independence.

[Lionel Ritchie]

good post.

The Irish Republic does indeed sound like a self-declared area which is not a real country at all.

I met a Ukrainian woman a few years back and she absolutely HATED her country being called 'The Ukraine' and made no apologies for it. If I ever said it she retorted by saying 'The Ireland' and on hearing the stupidity of that I refrained and called her country by it's name instead of putting a prefix to it!

Although I never went into dept about why she hated it or how it came to pass your explaination above makes sense.

EDIT - Source - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)
In English, the country is sometimes referred to with the definite article, as the Ukraine, similar to the Netherlands, the Gambia, the Sudan or the Congo. However, usage without the article is now more frequent, and has become established in diplomacy and journalism since the country's independence.

My source is the sleeve notes of a Wedding Present record :D.

Their then guitarist (and 2gen Ukrainian) Pete Solowska gave the explaination that Russian Imperialists popularised the placing of the definitive article before Ukraine.

Incidently I've a few Dutch and Fresian friends and they wouldn't put a definitive article before their countrys name in any language. They just call it 'Nederland' (nay-der-lont).
They have I'm sure mentioned the 'The Netherlands' thing before but I'm certain it doesn't bug them to anything like the extent calling the country 'Holland' does -which they'd consider as errant as calling Ireland 'Leinster'.

[bennocelt]

We are Ireland, or The Republic of Ireland, part of one of the British Isles.

might dip into this thread again:)


you see i would find it very insulting if someone called me British
and from the islands of Britain, but then i dont wear a blue shirt and the like;)

anyway whats your opinions on the British lions team? or London Derry?

[osarusan]

might dip into this thread again:)


you see i would find it very insulting if someone called me British
and from the islands of Britain, but then i dont wear a blue shirt and the like;)

anyway whats your opinions on the British lions team? or London Derry?


I didnt call you British. But (I'm assuming) you live on what I readily call the British Isles.

I'm sure you know that they are actually called the British and Irish Lions (as they should be).

Derry is a city. Some people may call it Londonderry, I don't.

I think you are mixing the geographical with the political.

[GavinZac]

Read my second post Gav, you may be right i may be right but its all opinion and im not gonna start by say "wrong" to everything you say
No, in matters of "who is right", there are no opinions. simply wishing something to be true does not make it so. Both statements you made were wrong, but of course in our tolerant society you are full entitled to be wrong, and I am full entitled to point this out in a derisive manner.

I read a while back that the Romans referred to Ireland as Scottia Major and to Scotland as Scottia Minor. Found that peculiar but there you go.Yeah, the north of ... er, Scotland was colonised by Scotti from, er, Ireland, pushing the existing "brittish" Picts south where they would later antagonise the Roman garrisons into building that wall.

Great Britain is to differentiate from Little Britain, not Brittany. To do with size of area.True, a more accurate translation would have been "Greater Britain"

Never heard that. Scotland is Alba and Ireland is Hibernia?Albion refers to the entire island of Britain. THe Roman aristocracy enjoyed borrowing heavily from the Greeks, and Hibernia is a Latinised version of the Greeks' "Ierna", and would indeed have been another name for Ireland. However, Ptolomey (Greek Roman Citizen of Egypt!) refered to the "Irish" people as Scoti and the island as Scotia, and his maps were taken as gospel for much of the Roman people and even after the fall of Rome.

[bennocelt]

I didnt call you British. But (I'm assuming) you live on what I readily call the British Isles.

I'm sure you know that they are actually called the British and Irish Lions (as they should be).

Derry is a city. Some people may call it Londonderry, I don't.

I think you are mixing the geographical with the political.


no you didnt, but if someone did call me from the British Isles (as i said) i would be insulted, casue I'm not from Britian, Im Irish from the island of Ireland
Of course if you want to call yourself that then thats fine

By the way the correct term is the British Lions! cause it represents the four British rugby playing nations!;) :)
No one outside of southern ireland calls it any different

i think you are mixing Google and wikipedia with the political reality (like what irish people call their country!)

[LeviathanNI]

Meh.. I don't think I have ever called the Republic 'Éire', but I do remember my oul folk calling it 'the Free State' - which mean't nothing to me as a kid. The Republic is just that part of Ireland which isn't mine, so I wouldn't get offended, the same way there is no point getting offended, imo, when Northen Ireland is refered to as 'the North'.. it is just clarification that it isn't 'the Republic'. The whole British Isles thing is just silly.. thats just a general name.

However, I don't like it when Ireland is used distinctly to mean the Republic.. Ireland is the Island that we all live on, not just one political jurisdiction... but there you go, we all have our hang ups :)

[MervilleUnited]

Good Debate!
I was told this one at school many years ago, by both a Christan Brother and then later by a local C of I Vicar whom I got to know very well. Ireland was never British, or part of Britian.

Over to our Pals in the CIA, on thier website:
England has existed as a unified entity since the 10th century; the union between England and Wales, begun in 1284 with the Statute of Rhuddlan, was not formalized until 1536 with an Act of Union; in another Act of Union in 1707, England and Scotland agreed to permanently join as Great Britain; the legislative union of Great Britain and Ireland was implemented in 1801, with the adoption of the name the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921 formalized a partition of Ireland; six northern Irish counties remained part of the United Kingdom as Northern Ireland and the current name of the country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was adopted in 1927

To explain, England and Wales is Britian, England, Wales and Scotland in Great Britian, and the Act of Union created United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The then after partition United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So in effect, the citizens of Northern Ireland were never British, they were, and are should they choose (Good Friday/Belfast Agreement) UK or Irish. The reading of my two learned pals, from both sides,
is that these islands are called British and Irish Isles.

[osarusan]

By the way the correct term is the British Lions! cause it represents the four British rugby playing nations!;) :)
No one outside of southern ireland calls it any different


http://www.lionsrugby.com here is the official site - look at what they call the team. And most people just say "The Lions" when they talk about the team.



i think you are mixing Google and wikipedia with the political reality (like what irish people call their country!)

I never said anything about what Irish people call their country in that post. I call it Ireland or The Republic of Ireland.

[bennocelt]

http://www.lionsrugby.com here is the official site - look at what they call the team. And most people just say "The Lions" when they talk about the team.



I never said anything about what Irish people call their country in that post. I call it Ireland or The Republic of Ireland.


sorry thats not true......most people (outside of ireland) call it the British Lions, i mean that not might be perfect but thats what im always hearing when i tune itno BBC and the like

what about terms like "the home nations" or "the mainland"

and im still not convinced of your reasoning for calling Londonderry..."Derry", by your reasoning you should go stricky by the book (atlas)

[osarusan]

sorry thats not true......most people (outside of ireland) call it the British Lions


You said "British Lions" was the correct term - I'm just pointing out that it is not.




what about terms like "the home nations" or "the mainland"


I never use (and rarely hear) "home nations".
If I were on the Aran Islands, I'd say Ireland was the mainland. If I were at home in Clare, I'd say I was on the mainland.

[OneRedArmy]

sorry thats not true......most people (outside of ireland) call it the British Lions, i mean that not might be perfect but thats what im always hearing when i tune itno BBC and the likeSo most British people call the team the British Lions and most Irish people call them either the Lions or the British and Irish Lions.

Blinding glimpse of the obvious I would've thought :confused:

[pineapple stu]

anyway whats your opinions on[...]London Derry?
It's Derry. From the original Irish Doire, meaning Oak Grove. Londonderry belongs in the archives along with Queen's County (Laois), King's County (Offaly), Queenstown (Cobh) and Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire).

[rebelarmyexile]

anyway whats your opinions on the British lions team? or London Derry?

The city is Derry, the county is Londonderry. i.e. Londonderry were playing in croke park yesterday, not Derry. NO such county exists, on a city.

[pineapple stu]

Not true, actually.

Officially both are Londonderry. In reality, the name belongs the same place as the names I mentioned.

[rebelarmyexile]

It's Derry. From the original Irish Doire, meaning Oak Grove. Londonderry belongs in the archives along with Queen's County (Laois), King's County (Offaly), Queenstown (Cobh) and Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire).


As a matter of interest, Kingstowns name was never legally changed as the residents opposed a name change. To have the name changed required the support of the residents, however the name was simply informally changed and has stuck, though was forced on residents. i know an old woman from the town who still insists on calling it Kingstown, to the amusement of bus drivers.

[rebelarmyexile]

Not true, actually.

Officially both are Londonderry. In reality, the name belongs the same place as the names I mentioned.

Oh, I was sure a Republican dominated City Council has changed the name in 1999. I am 100% sure the city council is Derry CC.

The county is Londonderry, and will remain Londonderry.

[John83]

Oh, I was sure a Republican dominated City Council has changed the name in 1999. I am 100% sure the city council is Derry CC.

The county is Londonderry, and will remain Londonderry.
As I understand it, the council changed their own name, but so far, no one's been able to get the county or the town itself officially renamed.


As a matter of interest, Kingstowns name was never legally changed as the residents opposed a name change. To have the name changed required the support of the residents, however the name was simply informally changed and has stuck, though was forced on residents. i know an old woman from the town who still insists on calling it Kingstown, to the amusement of bus drivers.
Wonderful!

Often, when I get corrected for calling it "Dun Laoire" (I've never bothered spell it Dun Laoghaire, much less pronounce it the way RTÉ do), I'll offer to agree to disagree and settle on Kingstown. It's usually quite telling how people respond to that.

[pineapple stu]

The council is Derry Council. It was brought to the courts last year to change the city name officially to Derry, but the court ruled (correctly, in my opinion) that that was a matter for a vote, not a court of law. The vote was left by the wayside as too divisive.

[OneRedArmy]

The council is Derry Council. It was brought to the courts last year to change the city name officially to Derry, but the court ruled (correctly, in my opinion) that that was a matter for a vote, not a court of law. The vote was left by the wayside as too divisive.As City status was granted by an Act of Parliament, and the city's name is officially Londonderry, it will require an Act of Parliament to change it.

It was left by the wayside as there was no chance of winning.

Personally, if I continued to pay rates in the DCC area I'd be fuming at the whole thing.

Let people call it what they want, Derry/Londonderry/Stroke City, there are a lot more important things to worry about in the city like job creation, anti-social behaviour etc.

[RogerMilla]

this is a fascinating thread , no one has actualy agreed on anything but nonetheless a lot of ground has been covered. i recall reading somewhere that the dept of education has taken the british isles out of the geography books being issued to kids ? is anyone here a geography teacher ?

I reckon i shall be noising up quite a few english mates with the info that the British isles actually do not exist citing our dept. of education as my source...

[Lionel Ritchie]

this is a fascinating thread , no one has actualy agreed on anything but nonetheless a lot of ground has been covered. i recall reading somewhere that the dept of education has taken the british isles out of the geography books being issued to kids ? is anyone here a geography teacher ?

I reckon i shall be noising up quite a few english mates with the info that the British isles actually do not exist citing our dept. of education as my source...

Surprised it was ever mentioned. When I was in secondary school in the 80's and doing my leaving cert in the early 90's we heard and learned absolutely nothing about the UK. It wasn't in the book. I can understand trying to get kids to broaden their horizons a bit and see a bigger world but that it wasn't even in the book is still a bit disgraceful when I think about it.