An Garda Siochana changes its name

[paul_oshea]

.....to one of its female members:

"But Supt Donohoe said An Garda Siobhan's integration policy had not been formulated on a whim, but from extensive research and consultations." :D


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcweyqlsnoj/

[First]

I think I just spotted Garda Siobhan cycling up High Street in Sligo. Very impressively turned out with her mop of blond hair trailing in the breeze under her cycling helmet.
A turban would have ruined the effect.

[dcfcsteve]

Well, the Gards won't get any practicising male Sikhs to join if they won't let them wear a turban.

It's not like the Muslim veil, which is effectively down to personal choice/belief for practicing Muslim females, for example. ALL parcticising male Seikhs have to wear some form of head covering/turban for their hair.

[paul_oshea]

Well, the Gards won't get any practicising male Sikhs to join if they won't let them wear a turban.

who are they?

Btw steve that last line makes no sense, the end of the first sentence infers the end of the second sentence. what do you mean by "have to"? Because they have long hair, its a cleanliness thing?

[AidoM]

I thought they could change it to An Garda Seikhana :rolleyes: :confused:

[dcfcsteve]

who are they?

Not sure who your question is referring to here ?


Btw steve that last line makes no sense, the end of the first sentence infers the end of the second sentence. what do you mean by "have to"? Because they have long hair, its a cleanliness thing?

Under Sikhism you're not allowed to cut your hair (any bodily hair...) as it is a gift from God. Hence they wear a turban (or variant of, if they're young kids - e.g. the one with the knot-looking thing on top). Not cutting hair is a core of the Sikh religion, and the turban is the particularly style of headwear they have chosen within their religion to collect/cover/tidy-up their un-cut head hair when observing that stricture. Any practising male Seikh will therefore have long head hair and a turban.

[biscuit]

on this argument. I think the real problem that ireland would face would be that (and i dont believe in this myself) is that there would be a disregard shown to a Seikh Garda wearing a turban. It might not be PC to say, but in reality, we all know that if a guy wearing a turban, be he gardai or not as i personally dont think it would make a difference, came up to a crowd of young fellas full of drink outside a late night eaterie and told them to move on or whatever, its inevitable that some sort of racsist comment would be made, and also that they would pass no heed in him, not all te time, but im sure it would be a common occurance. Its sad, but thats where I think we are as a society at the moment and dont see it changing anytime soon. Its all well the british Seikh police coming out complaining about the gardais approach to this issue,but where they are poicing there is such multi cultural diversity that it doesnt matter. If it was to happen on the streets of sligo/athlone/longford/waterford i think we all know what would happen.

[paul_oshea]

Under Sikhism you're not allowed to cut your hair (any bodily hair...) as it is a gift from God. Hence they wear a turban (or variant of, if they're young kids - e.g. the one with the knot-looking thing on top). Not cutting hair is a core of the Sikh religion, and the turban is the particularly style of headwear they have chosen within their religion to collect/cover/tidy-up their un-cut head hair when observing that stricture. Any practising male Seikh will therefore have long head hair and a turban.

I am aware of all that, but what I was saying is still down to choice. you choose to be muslim, you choose to be sikh ( not intitially maybe ;) ).

buscuit, spot on, very good point. I think that is what the guards were indirectly getting at also.

[Réiteoir]

There's a Sikh referee on the Football League in England called Jarnail Singh.

He referees wearing a head covering.

[biscuit]

well if he misses something at least he cant say his hair was in his eyes!:D

[Calcio Jack]

Hopefully the same restriction ie not being allowed whislt on duty to wear any relgious symbol will apply to members of all religions...so for example in future all Gardai should be banned from sporting ashes on Ash wed.... indeed that should apply to all public servants, thus Bertie should also be banned from displaying ahes on his forehead.....

[Jerry The Saint]

Hopefully the same restriction ie not being allowed whislt on duty to wear any relgious symbol will apply to members of all religions...so for example in future all Gardai should be banned from sporting ashes on Ash wed.... indeed that should apply to all public servants, thus Bertie should also be banned from displaying ahes on his forehead.....

That's hardly the same thing as this case though, which is to do with uniforms. Banning ashes would be equivalent to banning Garda Siobhan from wearing make-up.

[paul_oshea]

classic jerry, the poor girl has been very victimised. :D

[dcfcsteve]

on this argument. I think the real problem that ireland would face would be that (and i dont believe in this myself) is that there would be a disregard shown to a Seikh Garda wearing a turban. It might not be PC to say, but in reality, we all know that if a guy wearing a turban, be he gardai or not as i personally dont think it would make a difference, came up to a crowd of young fellas full of drink outside a late night eaterie and told them to move on or whatever, its inevitable that some sort of racsist comment would be made, and also that they would pass no heed in him, not all te time, but im sure it would be a common occurance. Its sad, but thats where I think we are as a society at the moment and dont see it changing anytime soon. Its all well the british Seikh police coming out complaining about the gardais approach to this issue,but where they are poicing there is such multi cultural diversity that it doesnt matter. If it was to happen on the streets of sligo/athlone/longford/waterford i think we all know what would happen.Can't agree Biscuit.

Firstly - you're extremely unlikely to have a Sikh Gardai working in an area where there are no Sikhs, or very few of them. The law of averages alone dicatates that. There are plenty of English equivalents to Athlone, for example, where you wouldn't see many if any non-white officers e.g. Cornwall, Somerset, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, Cumbria, Northumberland etc. Why would a practising Sikh want to live in area far from a Sikh temple, for example ?

Secondly - if a few neanderthal Irish knob-heads don't want to move with the times, that is no reason to not have ethnic minority police in an area. The law is the law, regardless of who is dispensing it. If people reacted to minority officers in a racist manner, they should be arrested under race laws - simple as. Eventually they'd get the message....
I am aware of all that, but what I was saying is still down to choice. you choose to be muslim, you choose to be sikh ( not intitially maybe ;) ).I don't see your point though, as pretty much everything in life inevitably boils down to people's choice.

Women generally choose to get pregnant, for example (or at least, wilingly engage in an activity that they know may well inevitably result in pregnancy). Does that mean they shouldn't get maternity leave then ?

Just because someone chooses to be Sikh shouldn't remove their right to having their religion respected. Is it really that big a deal for them to have headware that reflects and respects their religion anyway ? We're not asking for them to drive on the other side of the road or anything here...

[Bald Student]

Firstly - you're extremely unlikely to have a Sikh Garda working in an area where there are no Sikhs, or very few of them. The law of averages alone dictates that.Does anyone else think DCFCSteve is becoming a parody of himself? I can think of several areas in Ireland which have very few Sikhs.

[Student Mullet]

Women generally choose to get pregnant, for example (or at least, wilingly engage in an activity that they know may well inevitably result in pregnancy). Does that mean they shouldn't get maternity leave then ?Amen, brother.

[inexile]

Can't agree Biscuit.

Firstly - you're extremely unlikely to have a Sikh Gardai working in an area where there are no Sikhs, or very few of them. The law of averages alone dicatates that. There are plenty of English equivalents to Athlone, for example, where you wouldn't see many if any non-white officers e.g. Cornwall, Somerset, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, Cumbria, Northumberland etc. Why would a practising Sikh want to live in area far from a Sikh temple, for example ?

Secondly - if a few neanderthal Irish knob-heads don't want to move with the times, that is no reason to not have ethnic minority police in an area. The law is the law, regardless of who is dispensing it. If people reacted to minority officers in a racist manner, they should be arrested under race laws - simple as. Eventually they'd get the message....I don't see your point though, as pretty much everything in life inevitably boils down to people's choice.

Women generally choose to get pregnant, for example (or at least, wilingly engage in an activity that they know may well inevitably result in pregnancy). Does that mean they shouldn't get maternity leave then ?

Just because someone chooses to be Sikh shouldn't remove their right to having their religion respected. Is it really that big a deal for them to have headware that reflects and respects their religion anyway ? We're not asking for them to drive on the other side of the road or anything here...

on that point highlighted, that means you will be making a special dispensation for the seikh, gards have no say in where they are stationed but would special allowances have to be made for him so that he could be near his place of worship? i hope not, you would see a lot of unhappy gards up and down the country then, who are miles from their home place but keep quiet cos they know its the job they signed for. IMO if you want to join the cops you have to put up with their regulations or dont join.

[dcfcsteve]

Does anyone else think DCFCSteve is becoming a parody of himself? I can think of several areas in Ireland which have very few Sikhs.Which was exactly what I was saying.

Does anyone else think Bald Student is becoming a parody of someone a bit dopey....? ;)
on that point highlighted, that means you will be making a special dispensation for the seikh, gards have no say in where they are stationed but would special allowances have to be made for him so that he could be near his place of worship? i hope not, you would see a lot of unhappy gards up and down the country then, who are miles from their home place but keep quiet cos they know its the job they signed for. IMO if you want to join the cops you have to put up with their regulations or dont join.I suspect common sense - which is quickly disappearing from this debate - would dictate to a large extent in terms of where a Seikh Gard got stationed.

Maybe the 99.9% of the Gards who aren't Seikh would be unhappy if the one or two Seikh members of the force just happened to be stationed in or near Dublin - where there are Gudwara's for them to attend. Or maybe the 99.9% of the force that is non-Seikh would just not really notice, not really give a feck, and just get on with things instead......

[paul_oshea]

eh from what i remember reading there are under 5000 sikhs in Ireland ( 26 counties ), i have never noticed where ALL these sikhs live? Is it like the ballyhaunis equivalent in some town in tipperary that I never heard of where they all live?! Or do they all live in the phoneix park side of the North Circular?

[paul_oshea]

this could go too far down the road, but if i went to pakistan steve and saw all the men and women wearing shorts and t-shirts, I would get a great shock, and also I would wonder what happened to their "culture and beliefs".

[dcfcsteve]

eh from what i remember reading there are under 5000 sikhs in Ireland ( 26 counties ), i have never noticed where ALL these sikhs live? Is it like the ballyhaunis equivalent in some town in tipperary that I never heard of where they all live?! Or do they all live in the phoneix park side of the North Circular?

Without looking at any census info, I'd say it's a sure bet most would live in Dublin. They'llk want to live near fellow Seikhs and religious facilities - which in Ireland would suggest Dublin.

Ethnic and religious minorities do tend to cluster in certain small areas - you know this yourself from living in England (e.g. Southall, Blackburn, Bradford, Leicester, Stamford Hill, Tower Hamlets, Stockwell, Brixton etc etc etc ) sure, the Irish were no different in The Bronx, South Boston, Kilburn, Cricklewood etc etc. So it should be no suirprise to you if, by chance, there was a town somewhere where the majority of Ireland's Sikhs lived. It's the same in England with Southall.....

[dcfcsteve]

this could go too far down the road, but if i went to pakistan steve and saw all the men and women wearing shorts and t-shirts, I would get a great shock, and also I would wonder what happened to their "culture and beliefs".

So because it's like that in Pakistan, we should behave like that over here ? :confused:

Should we also mimic their military government as well......?

P.S. Let's not forget that, even in this day and age, Ireland still has laws that are based on Catholic beliefs : e.g. our approach towards abortion. It was barely over a decade ago that we legalised divorce (1995), for example, and only then by the slimmest of margins in a referendum.

[paul_oshea]

So because it's like that in Pakistan, we should behave like that over here ?

Whats wrong with their behaviour? Are you suggesting that because they have different values and beliefs to you that they are mis-behaving?

I would look at their neighbours India before I would suggest Pakistan, e.g spending $120 mil dollars a year to sustain a military base up on one of the highest peaks around kashmir.

[dcfcsteve]

Whats wrong with their behaviour? Are you suggesting that because they have different values and beliefs to you that they are mis-behaving?

You were suggesting that they would seek to force their different values and beliefs upon other people who may not share the same value/belief structure as them


I would look at their neighbours India before I would suggest Pakistan, e.g spending $120 mil dollars a year to sustain a military base up on one of the highest peaks around kashmir.

India is the world's biggest democracy. Pakistan is a military government installed by a de facto coup. Democracies can spend on military installations if they like - that doesn't make them undemocratic. Pakistan is nowhere near the democracy that India is.