Celtic Discussion

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Conor74
You really are not the brightest crayon in the box. Your logic is that any phrase that causes offence, if repeated, makes the person who makes that statement racist.

If that statement is made in reference to where a person originates from or their backround and is said in a fashion to cause offence and indeed violence on occasion then yes it is a racist statement!

Ahhhh but I see yer from Kerry, Id imagen Jackie Healy Ray gets yer first preference...................

Now I see where yer logic comes from!

:D

[tiktok]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
You from the League Of Ireland PR team or what?
:D

that's hardly an answer LH...

or are you from the 'trample on the LOI team' or what?;)

[Lionel Hutz]

This is going round in circles at this stage and Iv had enough, its getting boring!

You say Im a plastic paddy and I say your a racist now can we just leave it at that?
:rolleyes:

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by tiktok

or are you from the 'trample on the LOI team' or what?;)

Not at all!
I would love to see football flourish in Ireland and try not to critices the standard of football as many people who support teams from across the water do as I think League Of Ireland clubs do great work on the amount of resources they have to operate with I just dont like the League of Ireland fans thats all.

[tiktok]

not liking all LOI fans is a bit much though isn't it....

what experience's are you basing this on, have you been to a game where you were treated particularly badly or are you basing it on those you've encountered on this message board???

not having a go, just curious.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
what a couple of ******** posts these are. firstly, Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).

and what on earth would McCracken find offensive about Celtic's songs? admittedly, in the past there were a few "John Knox is down in hell" and "oh it's great to be a Roman Catholic", but since the board-initiated Bhoys Against Bigotry campaign, these have been successfully banned. even ones i'm sure he would have approved of, like A Nation Once Again, have been banned :mad:

furthermore, there are a huge amount of protestant celts - myself included. i've never even been inside an RC church, the only church i ever attended was protestant, and i know alot of Celtic fans (particularly in US, Aus, and NZ) who are the same. (i'm actually agnostic now though btw). and believe me, we have no trouble being accepted by the 70%-85% Catholic-schooled majority.

i rather think McCracken would have been a follower of a Ulster Belfast club, like Glentoran, or maybe even Cliftonville.

I think McCracken being a Freemason as many of the the leaders of the United Irishmen were, might have a problem with the "Masonic Conspiracy theories" of many Celtic fans. Celtic fans are always going on about referees and the SFA making biased decisions as part of some huge "Masonic Conspiracy". Also McCracken would identify with the fact that Hibs were owned by a Freemason Harry Swan from the 1930's onwards.

Also for your information it was way back in 1893 that the Hibees first opened their doors to non-Catholics. The support base was further broadened to include more non-Catholics when Swan became the first non-Catholic director.

Also it wouldn't be too suprising if McCracken would have been a Cliftonville supporter. Up until about 1970 Cliftonville were a mainly middle class and Protestant amateur football club (same background as McCracken). And it was only after demographic changes during the "troubles" that they changed to a mainly Catholic semi-professional club.

I also forgot to mention that original motto of Hibernian was "Erin go Bragh" meaning "Ireland Forever" or "Ireland until Doomsday" which was used on the green flag flown by the men of 1798 and which was flown by many Hibernian supporters in the 2001 Scottish FA Cup Final.

PS McCracken was also educated in Edinburgh so that's another reason he might identify with Hibernian.

[Gary]

threads merged again. Any more new threads on this topic will be either deleted or merged.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by tiktok
not liking all LOI fans is a bit much though isn't it....

what experience's are you basing this on, have you been to a game where you were treated particularly badly or are you basing it on those you've encountered on this message board???

not having a go, just curious.

No worries mate!

Been to games (but never been treated badly as such) various message boards and indeed just people I know from day to day activities who attend LOI games!

Never meet such a small minded self righteous bunch in all my life!
Have no time for them and they have completely turned me off watching domestic football.....when the hell did we suddenly start calling it "soccer" anyway?

This ****** from them about Celtic=secterian just reafirms what Iv come to believe over the years.

BTW when I was younger I often attended the Carlisle Grounds and Dalymount on the odd occasion

[Cityace]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Personally I dont see Irish and Scottish culture and history as being at all similar which is the way it should be!
Lots of different colours are far nicer than just different shades of grey
:)

The fact that the first irish people came from scotland, we were all celts, used basically the same language and have always had a close relationship with one another, helped each other in many battles(mostly against england), Our people have more our less the same characteristics, alot of the same customs, Ways for making and building stuff would make us completely different wouldnt it.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Cityace
The fact that the first irish people came from scotland, we were all celts, used basically the same language and have always had a close relationship with one another, helped each other in many battles(mostly against england), Our people have more our less the same characteristics, alot of the same customs, Ways for making and building stuff would make us completely different wouldnt it.

Always thought the cultures of both countries parted to a large extent with the arrival of the reformation and its ideals to Scotland.
Dunno about helping each other in battles either, think ye may have seen Braveheart one to mant times!:D
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.

However thats getting of topic, which I think has been done to death, think Il let it go now unless a new angle appears to the thread

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Always thought the cultures of both countries parted to a large extent with the arrival of the reformation and its ideals to Scotland.
Dunno about helping each other in battles either, think ye may have seen Braveheart one to mant times!:D
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.



You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.

Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.

In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.

About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.

You can still see the similarities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).



The great Irish Socialist Republican and leader of the 1916 rising James Connolly had no problem in supporting in Hibs. Another reason why Irish people should support Hibs instead of Celtic.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.

Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.

In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.

About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.

You can still see the simularities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.

Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!
:rolleyes:
I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!
:rolleyes:
I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.

You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.

The Irish also sadly also played an an active part in the spread of the British Empire, many Irish soldiers serving in the British Army. Look at Britain today and see that the poorest parts are in Scotland. The Scots have been as much victims of English rule as the Irish.

It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!

[Jam]

Paddy you are 100% right about the SNP thing. Celtic and Rangers fans often spout this cr*p. No independence for us yet I'm awfie sad tae say. :( I would however say that Ireland has been historically more of a victim than Scotland. But not any more and not for a while.

And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.

Also do you really think the Irish government seriously wants Northern Ireland back? And have a million angry unionists in their country making up almost 20% of the population? With all the economic costs to go with it not to mention the potential for social unrest/war? The simplistic Brits occupying northern Ireland argument has no meaning any more. They don't even want to be there and would love to leave if they could.

[the 12 th man]

why are glasgow celtic called the the bhoys??.why the odd spelling??//

[Paddy Ramone]

"Bhoys" is the spelling of the Irish pronunciation of "boys". Celtic as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.

[the 12 th man]

thanks /knew about the irish connection it was just the name i was wondering about

[TheRealRovers]

as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.
A Sligo man founded Celtic. Back to the why do so many Irish people support Celtic and not Irish clubs I think you can support/follow any one you want. I have family in Glasgow so I've been to a few games in Park Head but I couldn't say I support Celtic because of that. I support Sligo Rovers because they are my local team I go to all home Games and most away ones that’s what support is. Like most Irish people I follow Celtic (because of the Irish thing and I got family there) I watch them on the TV etc that’s what you call following a team.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!

I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.


Please explain to me where I stated I was anti-Scottish in my last post on this thread?

Regarding emphasising the differences between Scotland and Ireland are you saying it is wrong to state cetain facts in case they may be unpleasent to some people, although who would find my remarks in the post above offensive Im not quiet sure!?
Personally I think the way this thread has developed its only right that all aspects of the argument should be discussed as the "Oldfirm" itself is not something that has just sprung up over night

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam

And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.



That point was simply inserted to show a historical time line and to give another side to the history put forward by Paddy, nothing less nothing more.
However seeing as you have made an issue of it I will tell you that there is nothing trivail about the issue of soldiars stationed in N Ireland and your trivialization of the issues speaks volumes for you as a human being!

Be assured that I will not mention the "injustice of partition" (where the hell did this come from anyway? :rolleyes: ) as I see no point now or in the future discussing such a "trivail" issue with such a closed minded individual as yourself!

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.

Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz

Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.



That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.

During the second world war Nazi Germany killed 5 million jews, as well as a large number of disabled people, gays, and gypsies.
More racist violence broke out after the collapse of the Berlin wall and the unification of the two Germanys, east and west during which time dozens of migrant workers and asylum seekrs were killed mainly in poorer areas of eastern Germany.

Does this make me "anti-German"?

[Lionel Hutz]

To be honest Paddy reading back that post it makes me look like a smart arse but your accusing me of something that I am not which really ****es me off!
I hope we can get back to the topic and leave the accusations alone?
:)

[Paddy Ramone]

What about the misery inflicted on the Irish people by the English, the Vikings etc? Also a large element of the British Army used to put down rebellions in Ireland were Irish.

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.

I remember reading an article about the height of the Scots Nationalists power in the west of Scotland late 70's early 80's
when the leader of the party attended the annual Orange order Parade (held in some large park in the city center) and stood on a platform and said that Catholics were the real enemy of Scotland. The Scots Nats quickly denied this was a party political statement and claimed he was attending as a private individual,,,,,the man in question (elderly if I remember right) was quckly replaced but the damage was done.

[Paddy Ramone]

I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.

www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm

All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.

www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm

All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!

The Scots Nats trying to brush under the carpet the Orange rantings of an earlier party leader of course would condem any remarks made by some Lodge Grand secretary in Scotland which contained undertones of violence (it would be political suicide not too) There is some guy in the in the Scottish classical music scene who is well known over there (sorry his name escapes me,,,McMillan perhaps) set the cat amongst the pigeons a year or two ago by saying that anti catholic sentiment in Scotland was Scotlands secret shame. I think the Catholics of Irish descent would feel the bigots in high places would have more power in a Independant Scotland,,,voting Labour seems the lesser of all evils

[Jim Smith]

In fairness the SNP have worked hard over the last 30 years to rid the party of the bigots and extremists. The Trade Union movement in Britian in the 50's and 60's was racist in the extreme - does that mean that the movememt still is?

The Labour Party have done and will do absoultely anything to thwart Nationalist aspirations in Scotland. A few years ago in Glasgow Central they made their candidate change his name from Mike to Mick and got him to tone down his English accent because they were worried that the SNP was more Irish than their candidiate. The Labour Party are a unionist party. They always have been and I can't see that changing.

[Paddy Ramone]

Wasn't the great Irish Republican and a patron of Celtic FC, Michael Davitt sympathetic to Scottish Nationalism? He was prime mover in the creation of the Highland Land League in Scotland which eventually became part of the Scottish National Party. Brother Walfrid at the formation of Celtic FC in 1888, even quoted a speech from Davitt about the Irish and Scottish national struggles being the one and the same which is why the name Celtic was chosen instead of Glasgow Hibernian.

Somewhere along the line Celtic forgot their original principles and became a mirror image of Rangers. The name Celtic was meant to unite Catholic and Protestant and Irish and Scottish but instead nowadays it is associated only with Irishness and Catholicism. Bob Kelly the Celtic chairman in the 50's always hankered after an all-Catholic side. Kelly was also an advocate of a Great Britain side. Celtic are as much a pro-British side as Rangers as is evident by their demands to join the English Premiership.

It's all a case of divide and conquer by the powers that be in the British establishment. Some Celtic fans can't get their head around the fact that Presbyterians can be proud of Gaelic culture and heritage as much as Catholics. Most Gaelic speakers in Scotland are Presbyterian. Also the first Irish Republicans, the United Irishmen were mainly Presbyterian and were linked to the United Scotsmen who wanted an indepenent Scottish Republic.

I think Hibernian FC are closer to the original principles of Celtic FC, they draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants and are proud of being Scottish AND their Irish origins. Also the great James Connolly was a fan of the Hibees. What stronger Republican creditionals can you have?

The simple fact is Celtic FC are a conservative Catholic pro-unionist football club who benefit from the sectarian divide in Scotland. It is in Celtic's interest to keep the divisions alive in the West of Scotland. Celtic are part of a cartel with Rangers and benefited from Rangers anti-Catholic policies because they could have the pick of the Catholics in Scotland. Celtic and Rangers are two sides of the same coin. They need each other to survive.

Also don't Orangemen want to maintain the Union. Surely this is the the opposite of everything the SNP stand for.

[Scotsman]

Hey troops this has turned a wee bit political.

Lionel I did think you sounded a wee bit Anti-Scottish but you did mention facts - I could it turn round and say that alot of innocent folk have died at the hands or Irishmen - IE Bombs etc - Now I know nothing of this topic and care not to and I also realise that not ALL irish folk condemn this.

I have to say that there was a saying for SNP - Soon NO Pope.

Alot of people do forget that Celtic was named this to unite the Scots and Irish.

The whole "I'm Irish" nonsense does exist and it gets boring.

Celtic and Rangers do need each other - You're quite right Paddy.

You certianly sound knowledgable - I'm impressed.

I'm a Labour man and my Father was in the Executive
Board at one point - There was no religous reasons for this - Working class background and the Tories certainly don't help the working class.

The Gaels of Scotland hung on to their Catholic views for as long as they could and some fled to Ireland because of persecution - IE: Highland Clearances.

Mary Queen Of Scots was Catholic and her Son James V of Scotland became James I of England - Did he realise the effect of this??

I think not.

Scotland does suffer from bigotry and to hide it is to encourage it.

Get rid of ALL walks - Orange and Hibernian.

What does Hibernian mean? - Excuse my ignorance.

We Scots did suffer like you Irish at the hands of the English also.

Glasgow was up in arms at the Union of the Crowns.

Anyway do you all really care about the religous aspect?

I know I don't.

I know a shed loads of Celtic fans who are proud Scots and rightly so.

Goodnight and God Bless.

[James]

Originally posted by Scotsman
I know a shed loads of Celtic fans who are proud Scots and rightly so.
.

celtic ARE a scottish team
i know aload of cork city diehards that are proud irishmen and rightly so, whats your point :)

[Scotsman]

Well if you had read the posts before hand you would understand that I am pointing out that not ALL Celtic fans try to be Irish.

Or a you hust looking for an arguement - Run away to school now!

[S.E.P.1990]

PaddyRamone - u sound very informed and it is a entertaining piece. i am just a bit bemused that u r desperate to link teams with ideals and, yet, u criticise (rightly) the fact that the Old Firm need seperate religious ideals to survive.

I think Hibernian FC are closer to the original principles of Celtic FC, they draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants and are proud of being Scottish AND their Irish origins. Also the great James Connolly was a fan of the Hibees. What stronger Republican creditionals can you have?

I am confused does this mean that because Catholics and Protestants support a team that they automatically become a republican team???

Plus I am not sure if Scottish nationalists would agree with the fact that nationalists in the north arent exactly bosom pals of the Ulster/Scots community!! Unless of course u r equating nationalism with religion - in which case Hibs couldnt possibly be republican if they take their support from both religious communities?:confused:

[Jim Smith]

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990

I am confused does this mean that because Catholics and Protestants support a team that they automatically become a republican team???

I think the "Republican Credentials" relate to James Connolly rather than the religeous mix of the fans. It saddens me to see teams defined on the religion of their fan base - I didn't realsie that football as we know it dates back to the middle of the 17th centuary :(


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Plus I am not sure if Scottish nationalists would agree with the fact that nationalists in the north arent exactly bosom pals of the Ulster/Scots community!!

The Scottish nationalists and the Ulster/Scots community in the North have very little in common politically. There is little or no political connection between the various 'nationalist' movements. OK there was the SRSP/SNLA and a supposed link to the INLA but we are talking way out on the fringes here.

This has come rather a long way off topic....

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Jim Smith
SRSP/SNLA and a supposed link to the INLA
wasn't that one man and an envelope full of powder or something?

[Jim Smith]

Originally posted by Éanna
wasn't that one man and an envelope full of powder or something?

Off the top of my head your thinking of the anthrax hoax to St Andrews?

They have a bit more of a history than that, bank robbery and the like. It all seemed like a bit of a joke (capture Oban and spread out from there....) untill some bloke in Aberdeen was arrested with all sorts of "heavy ordinance" and military explosives that I think were supposedly supplied by Lybia. These people really are in the extreme and (fortunately) few are far between.

[aussie_tim_1798]

while it may be true that neither side of the Old Firm would be as big as they are now without the other, it is certainly not true that Celtic need Rangers to be a big club.

Celtic were enormously successful from the moment they entered competition - at which time there was no bad blood between them and Rangers. Indeed, it was written in a chronicle in the early 1890s that "the Light Blues are a favorite amongst the Celtic crowd".

it was only when Celtic's success became too great for the establishment to tolerate, that the Glaswegian people, both high up and at grassroots, began looking around for a Protestant club to compete with this Catholic upstart. (it's hard to overestimate how fervent anti-Catholic sentiment was in 19th century Scotland - before Irish immigration, there were more anti-Catholic organizations in Glasgow than there were Catholics themselves!)

the two candidates were Queen's Park and Glasgow Rangers, but since the former doggedly maintained their amatuer status, it was the next most successful club who carried the torch for mainstream Scottish society. and that was the Club's priority for their entire history, right up until the 1980s when it no longer became feasible to remain officially sectarian. but at the grassroots level the culture is the same: those who really love the club, love it because of its opposition of Celtic and all that Celtic stands for. Rangers never had any connection to Ulster, yet fans fly the Unionist Northern Ireland St. George's Cross, give a "red-hand salute" (that they themselves invented) and sing songs about The Sash and the Orangemen etc. even though these things have nothing to do with the club.

so i hope you can see how it is plainly a one-way dependent relationship. Glasgow Rangers would just be another Scottish club (albeit a stronger one, but probably only marginally stronger than say Hearts or Aberdeen pre-1990s) were it not for Celtic. whereas Celtic's culture is one that is 90% pro-Ireland and the Celtic people, and less than 10% anti-British (and perhaps 0.1% anti-Protestant). let me put it this way: if Celtic re-located to Ireland, virtually nothing would change in terms of culture. if Rangers re-located to England, their flying of the Union Flag and singing of Rule Britannia etc would become quite irrelavant, even laughable. worse still, if Rangers stayed in Scotland, without Celtic, they would lose all identity whatsoever, and would simply be a pro-Union team singing their songs to deaf ears (although some other smaller Scottish clubs have taken to singing Flower of Scotland back at the Gers when they sing Rule Britiannia :D )

[aussie_tim_1798]

yes, James Connolly supported Hibs, presumably because as a 7-year-old boy he was present at the founding of the club, grew up in Edinburgh, and the first football game he went to was that of Hibernian FC!

but the last thing that would mean is that he would have been anti-Celtic. even today, Celtic fans universally list Hibernian as their second favorite club...

however, Hibernian, unlike Celtic, have in a typically Brit fashion, abandoned all their sociopolitical origins and are now as apolitical as any generic Scottish or English geographically-bound club. not only that, but its hardcore element have sided with the SNF (Scottish National Firm) - an alliance of BNP fascist "casuals" from Rangers, Hearts, St Mirren, Aberdeen etc. whereas the hardcore Celtic faithful have remained committed (if only in name for most) to the Left: Anti-Fascist Action, Red Action and Celtic Fans Against Racism all have a base in the Celtic support.

and i marvel at the hypocrisy inherent with those who say: "Irish people should support Hibs instead of Celtic", while slagging off Celtic fans for supporting a team that doesn't play in the FAI! it seems to me just a massive case of "tall-poppy syndrome" (i.e., jealousy), all this hostility towards one of the most successful clubs in Northern Europe...



:confused:

[S.E.P.1990]

Rangers never had any connection to Ulster, yet fans fly the Unionist Northern Ireland St. George's Cross, give a "red-hand salute" (that they themselves invented) and sing songs about The Sash and the Orangemen etc. even though these things have nothing to do with the club.

let me put it this way: if Celtic re-located to Ireland, virtually nothing would change in terms of culture. if Rangers re-located to England, their flying of the Union Flag and singing of Rule Britannia etc would become quite irrelavant, even laughable.

Aussie Tim, interesting post.

If Rangers, as u said earlier in the post, represented the "establishment" then this establishment had very close links to Ulster in the late 19th century/early 20th century.

I dont get ur point about Rangers relocating in England. Rangers culture is British/Scottish/Ulster, its not English (i think u r making the usual mistake of mixing up the word British and English) - i think a more valid point would be if Rangers re-located in Northern Ireland would they there singing become irrelevant? i think the answer would be no.

Hibernian, unlike Celtic, have in a typically Brit fashion, abandoned all their sociopolitical origins

I am beginning to think that this abandonment is a good thing - it allows people to get outside both social and political stereotypes and become part of a wider community. It also seperates sport and politics - which is the way it should be. I am not too sure why u r saying its in typical Brit fashion here??

[aussie_tim_1798]

If Rangers, as u said earlier in the post, represented the "establishment" then this establishment had very close links to Ulster in the late 19th century/early 20th century.


firstly, it is not a controvertible statement to say that Rangers represented the establishment... it is excellently documented; Bill Murray, outlines it quite well in his famous book on the Old Firm. secondly, can you please provide citations for these "very close links"? obviously, both societies had a large Presbyterian and Masonic contingent in a wider sociopolitical sense, but my point is that Rangers FC only became concsious, and vocal, about their religion and Unionism, AFTER the overtness of the predominantly Irish Celtic FC success.




I am beginning to think that this abandonment is a good thing - it allows people to get outside both social and political stereotypes and become part of a wider community. It also seperates sport and politics - which is the way it should be. I am not too sure why u r saying its in typical Brit fashion here??

this is a common mistake made by observers of the Old Firm troubles. an analogy: would you ask the Muslims in Scotland to abandon their social, political, and cultural edifices? or Indians/Pakistanis in England? Blacks in the United States of America? of course you wouldn't. it is unfair to expect those Celtic supporters conscious of their heritage, ethnic (Irish) and political (Left), to abandon it in favor of apsorption into the mainstream whole, thereby vindicating the intolerance and bigotry that created the tension in the first place.




(i think u r making the usual mistake of mixing up the word British and English)

no, i think you're making the common mistake of thinking they're not the same thing. in ancient times, there was Britannia (England), Caledonia/Alba (Scotland), and Cambria (Wales). the application of Britain, to the entire Island, was an invention at the time of "Union". thus, you can probably bet that those living in Scotland, or Wales, or Cornwall, who call themselves British citizens, are for all intents and purposes Anglicized. Rangers culture is Anglicized to a great extent, viz., hooligan casual element, Union Flag (the only Scottish club to really fly it), Rule Britannia. it is Anglo-Scottish. just as the Scots-descended northern Irish in Ulster are...




i think a more valid point would be if Rangers re-located in Northern Ireland would they there singing become irrelevant? i think the answer would be no.

you've just further illustrated my point! the identity of Rangers FC only makes sense because it exists in opposition to something - Northern Ireland is the only place outside of Scotland that said identity would be relavant, since it would then exist in opposition to the Gaelic and/or Catholic community.


"seperates sport and politics - which is the way it should be" according to whom, and why? this is what i meant was "typically Brit". in Spain, Italy, and other places, the connections between sport and politics is much more overt than Celtic and Rangers. e.g., Roma (socialist) and Lazio (fascist), Real Madrid (right-wing), Barcelona (left-wing), Basque clubs Real Sociedad and Athletico Bilbao, etc, etc. there is a strong case to be made for that fact that since you will never separate sport and politics, the latter should be pushed as far to the front as possible. consider the official anti-Racism campaigns: footballers, and football clubs, are in a special and unique position to influence society, particulary youngsters. and of course, anti-Racism isn't the only cause worth giving attention to... but (a hardcore Celtic fan might argue): a United Ireland, anti-fascism, Scottish independence, general leftist concerns, etc, etc.

the fans of Celtic FC have created a highly unique club and culture. becoming "part of a wider community", is a euphemism for created a monoculture........... and environment where only a certain culture is accepted by the "wider community". you see what i mean? it's not Celtic who have the problem, it's those who fail to accept their differing self-identity.

[gspain]

Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798

and i marvel at the hypocrisy inherent with those who say: "Irish people should support Hibs instead of Celtic", while slagging off Celtic fans for supporting a team that doesn't play in the FAI! it seems to me just a massive case of "tall-poppy syndrome" (i.e., jealousy), all this hostility towards one of the most successful clubs in Northern Europe...



:confused:

Agreed it is ridiculous and disgraceful to expect Irish people to support Hibs or indeed any other British club - they should support Limerick or Shelbourne or Longford or whoever.:rolleyes:

[S.E.P.1990]

the fans of Celtic FC have created a highly unique club and culture. becoming "part of a wider community", is a euphemism for created a monoculture........... and environment where only a certain culture is accepted by the "wider community".

becoming part of a wider community is not a euphemism for creating a monoculture - just like for me to say that ur approach to society could be seen as an attempt to segregate everyone into there own little boxes (the purest form of which we saw in Nazis Germany and apartheid in South Africa). Pakistanis and Indians in the UK, for example, have their own culture plus the culture of the nation they live in.

you've just further illustrated my point! the identity of Rangers FC only makes sense because it exists in opposition to something - Northern Ireland is the only place outside of Scotland that said identity would be relavant, since it would then exist in opposition to the Gaelic and/or Catholic community.

Now i am no supporter of Rangers, but I fail to see how it doesnt make sense for a Scottish team, which is part of Britain and has a link to Protestantism doesnt make sense??? U can see it crudely as opposition to someone/something or you can see it as representative of someone or something. By choosing to place it in opposition you are trying to strip it of any real meaning, you also seem to think that all followers of Rangers are either members of the "establishment" or easily led by these people (whoever they are).

a hardcore Celtic fan might argue): a United Ireland, anti-fascism, Scottish independence, general leftist concerns, etc, etc.

he/she might - then again he/she might not have any interest in any of these. i personally hope that all Celtic fans are individuals who are not (in a favourite word of yours) monocultural.

Rangers culture is Anglicized to a great extent, viz., hooligan casual element, Union Flag (the only Scottish club to really fly it), Rule Britannia. it is Anglo-Scottish. just as the Scots-descended northern Irish in Ulster are...

Naturally the great politically motivated clubs of Lazio, Roma, Athletico Bilbao, etc are also anglicized with their hooligan casual elements also??????

Now i know we r completely off the point of this thread but Scots descended in Northern Ireland are almost completely Scots, not Anglo-Scots. In what way are they anglo? do they share the same religion? are they all descended from english settlers in scotland? As i said earlier you seem to be getting Britain (a concept and word developed by the Scots, not the English) confused with the English (or anglo or anglicized).


:D

[aussie_tim_1798]

look at a picture of a highlander, a clansman, in traditional Scottish dress.

then look at a picture of an Ulster-Scot, in his traditional Orangemen dress. marching with a bowler's hat, playing little English-style diddies on flute, and distinctly non-Celtic drums, speaking solely English, singing songs about a monarch of England.

at one point yes....they could be called Scots, of a sort...lowlanders all.... i'm sure you've heard the famous tales of when the marauding rebels of 1641 used to spare Scottish planters as opposed to English planters on the basis of their "race". and of course the United Irishman org was instigated by Presbyterians, who were also being discriminated against on account of the fact that they weren't Anglican. but that soon changed, and they thence sought to become as close to London as possible. now what are they? they're not Scottish, or English, or Irish, but a bunch of Unionist (no doubt because of their ambiguous culture) anglo-scottish-irish nutjobs with nothing positive to contribute to anyone.

"Britain" is not a concept and word developed by the Scots! it is a word in the ENGLISH language, an anglicization of the Latin Britainnia, and it is a concept, "developed" at the time of Henry VIII (NOT James I as is often thought) in connection with efforts to "unite" the two kingdoms, by the ENGLISH crown, not the Scottish one.




"There were nine counties in the province of Ulster at the time of the Plantation. Of those counties, two were to be settled entirely by Scots, two mostly by English and two mixed. The remaining three counties were not part of the 1610 Plantation scheme, but they had already been settled by both, the English and Scots. King James specifically excluded Highlander Scots from the colonization scheme; he believed that they would simply team up with the native Irish to cause discord and unrest."

- http://www.motherbedford.com/Irish3.htm

[Scotsman]

Aussie Tim have you ever been to Scotland?

You talk about Scotland but do you know how a Scotsman thinks?

Britain derives from Brythnic which is the Celtic clans of Wales and Cornwall.

Strathclyde Britons were of the same Celtic clan as the Welsh.

So someone from the Lowlands of Scotland is not Scottish?

Well I'm a Lowlander and my name is Watson - This derives from the Highland Clan of Buchannan.

When the Scotti 1st moved to Scotland there were PICTS (Celtic) Welsh (Celtic) and a small number of Angles in Scotland.

The 1st King of Scotland united Scotland and the main language was Gaelic.

The Scottish culture was taken on.

Scots language derives from the Angles but was never considered English.

This became the common political language and with English invations and then finally the Union English became the main language.

I support Celtic and support them as a football team and that is all.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Scotsman
Hey troops this has turned a wee bit political.

Lionel I did think you sounded a wee bit Anti-Scottish but you did mention facts - I could it turn round and say that alot of innocent folk have died at the hands or Irishmen - IE Bombs etc - Now I know nothing of this topic and care not to and I also realise that not ALL irish folk condemn this.




Im sorry if the stating of these facts offend you but I do not see how stating these facts as a counterweight to the argument that Ireland and Scotland have had a perfect relationship in the past could be deemed "anti-scottish"
I was simply trying to point out that there are usually two sides to every story!

As for the remarks about Irishmen and bombs.....just cheap, and indeed somewhat childish point scoring in my opinion as it had nothing to do with how the thread had developed to that point and in any case is hardly a topic that has been swept under the carpet in recent years!

[Scotsman]

So in one hand you're saying that by staing facts about Scotland I took offence but on the other me stating fact about Ireland you have taken offence and that's acceptable as it's childish from me.

Hello!!

Practice what you preach Lionel!!

You talk a good game and that' s all.

[TheRealRovers]

Isn't this thread meant to be about Celtic:confused: