12 team league from next season

[Steve Bruce]

I think this is good but I'm not a fan of the split half way through the season.

The teams are likely to be IMO

Linfield
Glentoran
Portadown
Glenavon
Coleraine
Ballymena
Cliftonville
Crusaders
Dungannon
Distillery
Institute
Newry

Although I wouldn't be suprized if Distillery or Newry are ousted and Donegal Celtic are put in their place.

Their will be no relegation for 2 seasons either, which imo isn't a good idea either.

[Graemerz]

I think this is good but I'm not a fan of the split half way through the season.

The teams are likely to be IMO

Linfield
Glentoran
Portadown
Glenavon
Coleraine
Ballymena
Cliftonville
Crusaders
Dungannon
Distillery
Institute
Newry

Although I wouldn't be suprized if Distillery or Newry are ousted and Donegal Celtic are put in their place.

Their will be no relegation for 2 seasons either, which imo isn't a good idea either.

Split is a major cause for concern.

Anyway, swap Institute for Larne and thats the 12 teams IMO.

Wouldn't have DC near the league.

Not overly fussed on promotion/relegation unless a club is worthy of promotion, dross like Limavady/Armagh could win the first division easily.

[Steve Bruce]

Split is a major cause for concern.

Anyway, swap Institute for Larne and thats the 12 teams IMO.

Wouldn't have DC near the league.

Not overly fussed on promotion/relegation unless a club is worthy of promotion, dross like Limavady/Armagh could win the first division easily.

According to Nosey and a few others Institute are a shoe in.

DC might get in because of the Celtic name.

If Limavady/Armagh and the likes meet the requirements for stadia and get the results on the pitch, they would deserve to me in the premier league.

[Graemerz]

According to Nosey and a few others Institute are a shoe in.

DC might get in because of the Celtic name.

If they meet the requirements for stadia, then they would deserve it.

:eek:Can't see it. :D

As for DC, they probably have the worst "stadium" in the current Premier League so I can't see how they should be granted entry just because they are Celtic.

[AnnaghRed]

I'd have left well alone, last time we played each other 4 times in the league attendances plummeted.....in 1996 Portadown actually won the league against a backdrop of falling attendances..

[Steve Bruce]

I'd have left well alone, last time we played each other 4 times in the league attendances plummeted.....in 1996 Portadown actually won the league against a backdrop of falling attendances..

attendances where falling anyway and they continue to do so with 16 teams and IMO at a far faster rate than before.

16 teams is a no-goer.

[AnnaghRed]

I give the new format two seasons max.

Regardless of facilities if teams like Armagh & Limavady perform where it matters most then they deserve their place in the top league.

Its not as if their grounds have to cope with massive crowds, 1000 tops, and only then when Linfield come to town.

The best crowds and best games in my time watching the IL, were in the 16 team league prior to 1996. Crowds of 6-8000 at Shamrock Park for games v Linfield, Glentoran & Glenavon, even Cliftonville & Crusaders drawing 3000+

Sadly enticing back the 1000's who've stopped watching the local game since that time, may be mission impossible.

[David]

DC might get in because of the Celtic name.

If they meet the requirements for stadia, then they would deserve it.

Why would they deserve it?

[Steve Bruce]

Why would they deserve it?

Amended my post. I wrote the post in a rush.

Also if DC could get their ground up to standard and their results are to, they would deserve it.

[Nesta99]

Ok im not going anywhere near the all island league debate, but how many times have both the Irish league and League of Ireland restructured in recent times. 10/12/16/22 teams, league splits, summer/winter hashed and rehashed membership criteria. All cosmetic solutions.........

Imo and im not claiming expertise, but if both leagues played the same calender, 12 teams ruthlessly picked on facilities and viability (in otherwords if you had to invest your own savings in the 12 clubs who would it be) league cup or expanded setanta cup or somthing played cross border. Added to a co-ordinated publicity campaign blah blah.
Summer football is the one success of all changes i think.

[AnnaghRed]

Summer football is the one success of all changes i think.

Summer football has certainly helped the Republics UEFA co-efficient, but lets be honest, that is only ever going to climb so high, then stop.

Can't say i've been bowled over by the attendance figures published on here either, one figure 4206 for Shamrock Rovers v Bohemians particularly stood out. The only time last season a Blues v Glens game had a crowd that low was in the Setanta Cup.

[SolitudeRed]

This all seems a bit mad apparently Crusaders are on of the teams that is in severe risk of not getting into this new league:eek: would love to know how they calculated all this!


DC might get in because of the Celtic name

To be fair the Celtic name hasn't really done them any favours, for Donegal and Lurgan Celtic when they were trying to get into the league in the 90s has anything changed?


Can't say i've been bowled over by the attendance figures published on here either, one figure 4206 for Shamrock Rovers v Bohemians particularly stood out. The only time last season a Blues v Glens game had a crowd that low was in the Setanta Cup.

Yes but are the average attendances not a lot bigger for the smaller EL teams than for the smaller IL teams? whats Linfield and the Glens average attendance anyway?

[half_full]

Summer football has certainly helped the Republics UEFA co-efficient, but lets be honest, that is only ever going to climb so high, then stop.

Can't say i've been bowled over by the attendance figures published on here either, one figure 4206 for Shamrock Rovers v Bohemians particularly stood out. The only time last season a Blues v Glens game had a crowd that low was in the Setanta Cup.

thats a small enough crowd for bohs vs rovers allright. however how many more thousand go to glentoran vs. linfield than a normal run of the mill game?

overall nearly every premier club is capable of pulling in 1000+ regularly

[Nesta99]

Summer football has certainly helped the Republics UEFA co-efficient, but lets be honest, that is only ever going to climb so high, then stop

Thats true the co-eff will plateau when the league reaches its technical standard, but isnt that the same for most leagues, difference for LOI is that preperation is as good as possible due to Summer football, ability is maximised and teams are not undone by fitness/sharpness issues. Improved European performances mean improved credability etc. Summer football has facilitated more than improved european results though, media coverage while not amazing is better than it was. Not competing with the premiership for column inches for the summer months, more live games, (the only live games ive seen from IL on TV is the Cup Final). I dont know if improved playing surfaces is a true argument, but it certainly costs less to water a hard pitch than it does to maintain a mudbath! Quite honestly id rather stand at a game in July than freeze in January...

[Steve Bruce]

I also think summer football would close the gap between IL and LOI clubs. Although I'm not saying that IL clubs would become world beaters because of it, but we would certainly be better.

[Graemerz]

I also think summer football would close the gap between IL and LOI clubs. Although I'm not saying that IL clubs would become world beaters because of it, but we would certainly be better.

What difference would it make to a club? Use Lisburn Distillery for example...

[Steve Bruce]

What difference would it make to a club? Use Lisburn Distillery for example...

The difference is, when LOI and IL teams play they would be equally as match fit and we wouldn't get as many embarrasing results.

Also the difference it would make to Linfield for example(don't believe in commenting on other clubs I have no interest in) is we would have went through the next round of Europe as our forwards and all round play would be a lot sharper.

[Graemerz]

The difference is, when LOI and IL teams play they would be equally as match fit and we wouldn't get as many embarrasing results.

Also the difference it would make to Linfield for example(don't believe in commenting on other clubs I have no interest in) is we would have went through the next round of Europe as our forwards and all round play would be a lot sharper.

Yes, but Irish League clubs wouldn't actually get ANY better, they would just be peaking at a different stage.

[Graemerz]

1. Linfield FC - 1084
2. Ballymena Utd FC - 982
3. Glentoran FC - 882
4. Dungannon Swifts FC - 775
5. Coleraine FC - 770
6. Portadown FC - 735
7. Cliftonville FC - 732
8. Glenavon FC - 717
9. Newry City FC - 715
10. Lisburn Distillery FC - 695
11. Loughgall FC - 632
12. Armagh City FC - 575
13. Larne FC - 568
14. Institute FC - 567
15. Crusaders FC - 566
16. Limavady Utd FC - 545
17. Donegal Celtic FC - 540
18. Ballymoney Utd FC- 503
19. Ballyclare Comrades FC - 493
20. Ards FC - 465
21. Bangor FC - 453
22. Carrick Rangers FC - 417
23. Queens University FC - 395
24. Lurgan Celtic FC - 362
25. Sport & Leisure Swifts FC - 359
26. H&W Welders FC - 333
27. Portstewart FC - 320
28. Ballinamallard Utd FC - 310
29. Brantwood FC - 308
30. Knockbreda FC - 307
31. Oxford Utd Stars FC - 293
32. Dromara Village FC - 284
33. Tobermore Utd FC - 251
34. Coagh Utd FC - 233
35. Killymoon Rangers FC - 229
36. Annagh Utd FC - 221
37. Moyola Park FC - 207
38. Derriaghy CC FC - 198
39. Hanover FC - 173
40. H&W Sport FC - 117


This is a joke scenario here with Armagh City, with no fans, amateur like set-up, very poor stadia and a poor team are ahead of the likes of a club like Crusaders.

Even more nonsense is that Ards are ahead of Bangor, Ards for the past 6 or more years have used Bangor's ground as they haven't bothered their arse trying to rebuild one of their own, and on top of that Bangor almost made the Premier League this year when Ards struggled in a sh*t First Division.

[DmanDmythDledge]

What's the list above for?

[SolitudeRed]

What's the list above for?

Its the ratings given to the current IL clubs for this new invitational premier league of 12 rather than the current 16 teams! The Analysis was done by the IFA I think! and they considered things like attendances, past performance, stadium and finances! To me they kind of seem similar to the UEFA coefficient although I am probably wrong on that one!

[Steve Bruce]

Yes, but Irish League clubs wouldn't actually get ANY better, they would just be peaking at a different stage.

We would be able to compete in 2 tournements at a higher level(setanta and Europe)

[Poor Student]

Why have those results been announced a year in advance? What's the incentive for Donegal Celtic this season for example if they know they're as good as out of the new set up for at least a few years?

[Steve Bruce]

Why have those results been announced a year in advance? What's the incentive for Donegal Celtic this season for example if they know they're as good as out of the new set up for at least a few years?

The incentive for them is they have a year to install better facilities and better infrustructure.

At least this way every club knows what they have to do to make the cut and they have a year or so to make the improvements.

Incidently Donegal Celtic don't need too many more points to make the cut. From DC up to Loughgall all have a chance of making the 11th and 12th place.

[dcfcsteve]

Can't say i've been bowled over by the attendance figures published on here either, one figure 4206 for Shamrock Rovers v Bohemians particularly stood out. The only time last season a Blues v Glens game had a crowd that low was in the Setanta Cup.

Two teams do not a league maketh. Especially when most of the rest of the teams in the Irish League are playing in fornt of the proverbial one man and his dog. :)

The Eircom League has consistently higher average attendances than the IL, and a much more even distribution of support across both its divisions. Our First Division has higher average crowds than practically all the the IL's premier division combined, and even First Division teams like Dundalk and Shels have average crowds that would pretty much out-do anyone in the IL bar Linfield and probably Glentoran. So the figures amy not bowl you over - but there certainly a lot stronger.

Also - if you want to cherry pick the IL's plum fixture for crowd comparison purposes, then you'd need to do likewise for the EL. Rovers v Bohs is rarely the best supported fixture in any year in the EL. For the last two seasons, for example, it was Derry v Cork, followed by a mix of games involving Cork, Shels, Derry and Drogheda. Rovers and Bohs are only really upper mid-table when it comes to crowds.

[Steve Bruce]

Two teams do not a league maketh. Especially when most of the rest of the teams in the Irish League are playing in fornt of the proverbial one man and his dog. :)

The Eircom League has consistently higher average attendances than the IL, and a much more even distribution of support across both its divisions. Our First Division has higher average crowds than practically all the the IL's premier division combined, and even First Division teams like Dundalk and Shels have average crowds that would pretty much out-do anyone in the IL bar Linfield and probably Glentoran. So the figures amy not bowl you over - but there certainly a lot stronger.

Also - if you want to cherry pick the IL's plum fixture for crowd comparison purposes, then you'd need to do likewise for the EL. Rovers v Bohs is rarely the best supported fixture in any year in the EL. For the last two seasons, for example, it was Derry v Cork, followed by a mix of games involving Cork, Shels, Derry and Drogheda. Rovers and Bohs are only really upper mid-table when it comes to crowds.


Their was over 12,000 at Boxing day match last year. Bigger than any league match you can come up with down south.

Although I would agree with your other points about the attendances are stronger through-out the league.

[dcfcsteve]

Their was over 12,000 at Boxing day match last year. Bigger than any league match you can come up with down south.



Which is a great crowd. Now all you need is a new 2-team league structure....... :D

[Cymro]

Hey Steve (the Derry one not the Linfield one!), I think I've read in a few places that some of the Eircom League's 1st Division matches have attracted crowds of under 50 in recent years.

Don't quote me on that, but if it's true, then you're overselling the crowds in the ROI's 1st division. I've no doubt that when you take out clubs like Shelbourne or Dundalk who get higher attendances than a lot of your Premier Div sides then the level of support would be no higher than the Irish League or even Welsh Premier, and would more accurately reflect the real level of support for that standard of play.

Also from some stuff I've read on here a lot of your Premier Division games attract fairly low crowds. I know a lot of overexaggeration likely goes on as to exactly how low they are but I read a figure of under 100 for a UCD game in a thread in the EL section the other day.

[Schumi]

I read a figure of under 100 for a UCD game in a thread in the EL section the other day.
Complete nonsense.

[Cymro]

Complete nonsense.

Hey, I just repeated what I read. I'm not the one making those claims.

[Schumi]

Hey, I just repeated what I read. I'm not the one making those claims.I was referring to those claims, nothing personal to you. :)

[SolitudeRed]

Well theres no doubting that attendances are poor for most clubs outside of Glentoran/Linfield and even then figures of 12000 for those two clubs will only be seen at a couple of matches a season.

I can only really speak for Cliftonville who I would say would be one of the better supported clubs outside of the Glens/Blues I would say that they would be get around 1000 for most of their games and at least double that at the big matches.

Although in saying that was at the opening CIS cup match against Limavady utd the other day and there couldn't have been much more than 500 at it and the weren't even any Limavady fans at the match!

[dcfcsteve]

Hey Steve (the Derry one not the Linfield one!), I think I've read in a few places that some of the Eircom League's 1st Division matches have attracted crowds of under 50 in recent years.

Don't quote me on that, but if it's true, then you're overselling the crowds in the ROI's 1st division. I've no doubt that when you take out clubs like Shelbourne or Dundalk who get higher attendances than a lot of your Premier Div sides then the level of support would be no higher than the Irish League or even Welsh Premier, and would more accurately reflect the real level of support for that standard of play.

Also from some stuff I've read on here a lot of your Premier Division games attract fairly low crowds. I know a lot of overexaggeration likely goes on as to exactly how low they are but I read a figure of under 100 for a UCD game in a thread in the EL section the other day.

Hey Cymro - read the EL attendances thread. You know where it is. Shows that crowds for many EL First Division teams surpass those of IL Premier teams. It also shows that EL First Division attendances wipe the floor with those of teams from your favourite hobby horse, the Welsh Premier.

Why you have to come into this section of the forum spouting nonesesnse on attendances, when you know full well there is a thread with the details on them layed out, frankly baffles me.

And if you aren't happy with the attendances listed on the EL attendnaces thread, take it up with the FAI and Genesis - both of whom are happy to use the figures from foot.ie

:ball:

[Cymro]

Hey Cymro - read the EL attendances thread. You know where it is. Shows that crowds for many EL First Division teams surpass those of IL Premier teams. It also shows that EL First Division attendances wipe the floor with those of teams from your favourite hobby horse, the Welsh Premier.

Why you have to come into this section of the forum spouting nonesesnse on attendances, when you know full well there is a thread with the details on them layed out, frankly baffles me.

And if you aren't happy with the attendances listed on the EL attendnaces thread, take it up with the FAI and Genesis - both of whom are happy to use the figures from foot.ie

:ball:

You know I only do it for the kicks. I apologise if I've pi$$ed you off now, maybe I was right about those crowds of 50?

I also apologise if a bit of friendly banter on a fairly light-hearted topic is not appropriate behaviour on a site that, in terms of football discussion, is one of the best I've posted on, which is why I post on here despite not being Irish or having any connection to Ireland.

Incidentally, I didn't know about the thread on attendances.

However, I have read up on them, and no I don't think I am spouting nonsense as you put it.


Don't quote me on that, but if it's true, then you're overselling the crowds in the ROI's 1st division. I've no doubt that when you take out clubs like Shelbourne or Dundalk who get higher attendances than a lot of your Premier Div sides then the level of support would be no higher than the Irish League or even Welsh Premier, and would more accurately reflect the real level of support for that standard of play.

Here (http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/2000/aveire.htm)

Take out the bigger teams (let's say the top 3 crowd pullers) from the 1st Division every year and you're left with an average attendance ranging from around 250 to around 350.

The Welsh Premier averages around 250-300 in each season. I would not say that is spouting nonsense.

Now for God's sake relax and don't take it so seriously. :)

[BleusAvantTout]

Also - if you want to cherry pick the IL's plum fixture for crowd comparison purposes, then you'd need to do likewise for the EL. Rovers v Bohs is rarely the best supported fixture in any year in the EL. For the last two seasons, for example, it was Derry v Cork, followed by a mix of games involving Cork, Shels, Derry and Drogheda. Rovers and Bohs are only really upper mid-table when it comes to crowds.

I attended the Derry v Drogs game at the Brandy in June (as a guest) and would be astounded if there were 3,500 at it. I don't believe the attendance for that game was published on the attendances thread.

[Macy]

Improved European performances mean improved credability etc. Summer football has facilitated more than improved european results though, media coverage while not amazing is better than it was. Not competing with the premiership for column inches for the summer months, more live games, (the only live games ive seen from IL on TV is the Cup Final). I dont know if improved playing surfaces is a true argument, but it certainly costs less to water a hard pitch than it does to maintain a mudbath! Quite honestly id rather stand at a game in July than freeze in January...
It's debatable whether European performances have any tangible benefit, bar for a two week period around the games. I don't think media coverage has improved, nothing that can't be put down to the advent of Setanta Sports rather than summer football anyway. Improved player standards are to do with more professional set ups, the league playing more competitive wages compared to the UK meaning better players.

There is little evidence that it's Summer Football that has lead to any increase in attendances, particularly in the provincial clubs, and infact attendances are at their highest at the start and end of the seasons, not in the middle when the whether is supposed to be better. As ever, attendance is more to do with team performance rather than the time of year the game is played.

Summer football a success in the League of Ireland? There's nothing tangible to show it is, just the usual bull with no measurement that can quantify it one way or the other.

[Nesta99]

Summer football a success in the League of Ireland? There's nothing tangible to show it is, just the usual bull with no measurement that can quantify it one way or the other.

There is nothing debatable about improved European performances give greater credibility to a league! It is the gauge by which the standard of a league is determined is it not? Therefore higher ranking gives less grounds for dismissal as irrelevant. I didnt tie European performance directly to media coverage but can you argue against the fact that there are more live LOI games covered now than in the past (and not just setanta matches)? I do agree that higher wages both attracts and retains a better standard of player. I would also argue that Irish players released by English clubs no longer see their careers as over and can return to Ireland and continue to develop.

Nothing tangible about success of summer football ok! but certainly anecdotal evidence....at least as tangible as claiming that there is a trend toward increased attendance early and late in a season which is normal at any season, could this have to do with early season enthusiam or late season championship/relegation run ins? rather than the fact that it is march or october. There are obviously arguments for and against, i dont see any reason for why attendances would have improved by playing over a winter season but to dismiss as 'usual bull' the merits of summer football as i see is lazy dismissiveness. Your logic could be applied to winter football too.
Apologies to Irish League forum for this digression.........

[Macy]

European performances have more to do with quality of players. More coverage has to do with marginally better committments tied in with the National Team TV Contract, and the advent of an Irish Sports Channel desperate for sports.

The ship has sailed in terms of changing back to a winter season, but that's not really the point. You're saying that the Irish League should follow our example and switch to a summer season because of the benefits it brings. The lesson the Irish League should really learn from us is don't go fookin around with it unless you can demostrate clear benefits and ways of measuring whether it's been a success or failure. Something the League of Ireland has never been able to do be that with the switch of seasons, changes in numbers, changes in formats.

If the aim of summer football is European progress, what are the tangible benefits of that? Bragging rights or something that actually means something? A couple of paydays if theres a favourable draw for one club a season*? What does it bring to the rest of the league? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but because the league have/ had no way of measuring anything or aims of the switch we simply don't know and that's no basis for doing something as major as switching season.

*It's debatable whether this even has that much long term benefit, given the example of Shels, and even Bohs that frittered away the returns of Aberdeen/ Kaiserslautern (sp?)

[AnnaghRed]

Yes but are the average attendances not a lot bigger for the smaller EL teams than for the smaller IL teams? whats Linfield and the Glens average attendance anyway?

3000 & 2000 apparently. Portadown like Cliftonville would be lucky to average 1000 these days :(

[AnnaghRed]

Two teams do not a league maketh

Thats fair enough, I don't doubt that the EL has better crowds overall, nor that the standard of football is higher.

But the biggest derby in the north does appear to pull a bigger crowd.

[Saint MacDara]

3000 & 2000 apparently. Portadown like Cliftonville would be lucky to average 1000 these days :(

I dont know anything about Portadown other than what ive seen with my own eyes.When Pat's played them in the Setanta Cup there were less than 50 home fans there because they knew they were in for a pasting.

Not very loyal,do their supporters act like that when playing Linfield or Glentoran?

[dcfcsteve]

Take out the bigger teams (let's say the top 3 crowd pullers) from the 1st Division every year and you're left with an average attendance ranging from around 250 to around 350.

The Welsh Premier averages around 250-300 in each season. I would not say that is spouting nonsense.

Your maths is seriously suspect Cymro. If you take the Shels and Dundalk* figures out from the First Division EL attendances thread on foot.ie (remember - figures there are a mixture of official published ones and experienced judgements from fans who know the stadiums, and are deemed good enough to be used by both the FAI and Genesis sports consultancy) then you're left with an average of 552. So even by stripping out the 2 best supported clubs in the EL FIRST division, the crowds there are still roughly double what you get in the entire Welsh PREMIER division. I think that kills any comparison between Welsh and Irish crowds stone cold dead.....

* I chose Shels and Dundalk, as they have clearly the best crowds. Next best is Wexford who, as only in their first season, I've left in - as their ongoing crowd size has not been proven. I'd happily strip out a few more clubs if it would make you feel better and grind the average down to closer to the Welsh level. Though I fail to see what that would prove...

[dcfcsteve]

Thats fair enough, I don't doubt that the EL has better crowds overall, nor that the standard of football is higher.

But the biggest derby in the north does appear to pull a bigger crowd.

No-ones disputing that. But that just makes the Irish League look even worse/unbalanced !

The Old Firm derby in Scotland getting 60,000+ at Parkhead doesn't shine a posiitve light on an average crowd of c. 4-5,000 at Inverness, Motherwell, Gretna and St Mirren, for example. Teams play in leagues.

[Steve Bruce]

No-ones disputing that. But that just makes the Irish League look even worse/unbalanced !

The Old Firm derby in Scotland getting 60,000+ at Parkhead doesn't shine a posiitve light on an average crowd of c. 4-5,000 at Inverness, Motherwell, Gretna and St Mirren, for example. Teams play in leagues.

I fail to see how it makes it worse tbh.

It can only be a good thing to have a couple of teams who can command a big support, rather than having a league full of teams who draw no support.

Incidently SPL gets a terrible lashing by people over here(me included) but their lowest team gets a bigger average gate than our top teams. This shows you how much football on this island still has to go before it can be taken seriously across Europe.

[dcfcsteve]

I fail to see how it makes it worse tbh.

It can only be a good thing to have a couple of teams who can command a big support, rather than having a league full of teams who draw no support.

Incidently SPL gets a terrible lashing by people over here(me included) but their lowest team gets a bigger average gate than our top teams. This shows you how much football on this island still has to go before it can be taken seriously across Europe.

You would expect SPL teams to have a higher average crowd than Irish teams, given the disparity in strength of the domestic game in both countries, and the overall quality. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone.

And whilst it would obviously be preferable having a league with one or two teams of big support and everyone else on very low support, rather than a league where all had that low level of support - the size of crowds for the Linfield-Glens derby is being forwarded to suggest that EL crowds are not all that great. Yes - we don't get crowds of 12,000 for individual games - but across the league we are certainly in a much healthier position than the IL, and the odd gate-busting Big Two derby doesn't change that fact. For the overall health of any league, I would assert that it is better to have a broadly similar level of support amongst clubs in a league - so long as we aren't talking about pitifully low support (e.g. Welsh Premier standard) - than have one or two well supported clubs and the rest playing in empty stadiums. Otherwise you end up in the uncompetitive situation you have in Scotland and, it would seem, the Irish League.

[dcfcsteve]

I attended the Derry v Drogs game at the Brandy in June (as a guest) and would be astounded if there were 3,500 at it. I don't believe the attendance for that game was published on the attendances thread.

You're right - it's one of the ones listed as missing on the attendances thread.

Where are you getting the 3,500 figure from btw ? Our average this season is c. 2,900.

Our 2 biggest crowds historically have been against Shels and Harps - both of whom sadly languish in a division lower than us now. If the Glens got relegated, it'd be interesting to see what sort of average crowd Linfield got over a season.

[Steve Bruce]

It wasn't, and the attendances thread states that.

Where are you getting the 3,500 figure from btw ? Our average this season is c. 2,900.

Our 2 biggest crowds historically have been against Shels and Harps - both of whom sadly languish in a division lower than us now. If the Glens got relegated, it'd be interesting to see what sort of average crowd Linfield got over a season.

Incidently, the Derry home support haven't been updated in the thread for a while. Is this to do with the drop in attendances?

This is a side question, nothing to do with the debate, just curious.

[Steve Bruce]

You would expect SPL teams to have a higher average crowd than Irish teams, given the disparity in strength of the domestic game in both countries, and the overall quality. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone.

And whilst it would obviously be preferable having a league with one or two teams of big support and everyone else on very low support, rather than a league where all had that low level of support - the size of crowds for the Linfield-Glens derby is being forwarded to suggest that EL crowds are not all that great. Yes - we don't get crowds of 12,000 for individual games - but across the league we are certainly in a much healthier position than the IL, and the odd gate-busting Big Two derby doesn't change that fact. For the overall health of any league, I would assert that it is better to have a broadly similar level of support amongst clubs in a league - so long as we aren't talking about pitifully low support (e.g. Welsh Premier standard) - than have one or two well supported clubs and the rest playing in empty stadiums. Otherwise you end up in the uncompetitive situation you have in Scotland and, it would seem, the Irish League.

I get you now, wasn't too clear before. I would agree with that.

But Linfield vs Glentoran is probably the most prestigious derby on this Island which the crowds reflect and I also think Linfield is the most prestigious fixture any team can have(outside their derby of course) going by the attendances in the Setanta cup, all the largest attendances seem to be when Linfield visit.

[dcfcsteve]

Incidently, the Derry home support haven't been updated in the thread for a while. Is this to do with the drop in attendances?

This is a side question, nothing to do with the debate, just curious.

Cynical....... :rolleyes:

Firstly - how have the Derry attendances not been updated in that thread "for a while" ? The only 2 listed as missing are vs Waterford (May) and Drogheda (June). We've had 4 home League games since then - which, given they aren't listed as missing, must therefore be included in the average. So where the hell are you getting this idea that they haven't been updated recently ? :confused: Sounds like you just wanted to make a petty post about the small decline in City's attendances, and shoe-horned a question around it to suit..... :o

Secondly - the stats for the Drogs and Waterford games are largely missing because I was the only one back them who used to post the City figures, and I haven't been on foot.ie anywhere near as much since then as I used to be. It didn't help that it's convoluted for me to get the figures from other City fans first etc. Other City fans have since appeared to step into the breach, thankfully.

Finally - there is no shame in a club that is performing dramatically worse than in recent years facing a small decline in attendances. That's football. What is interesting is that - despite falling off a cliff on the pitch, our attendances have declined by less than 10% on the terraces, and we are the 2nd best supported team in the league. I doubt even the mighty Linfield would escape a decline in attendances if you's found yourselves hanging out mid-table for a season.

Nice try on the question though. Maybe make it a bit less obvious next time, eh......?

[dcfcsteve]

But Linfield vs Glentoran is probably the most prestigious derby on this Island which the crowds reflect and I also think Linfield is the most prestigious fixture any team can have(outside their derby of course) going by the attendances in the Setanta cup, all the largest attendances seem to be when Linfield visit.

Linfield is certainly the most prestigious draw. However - for some teams, that would be down to the novelty factor.

Rovers would probably see Linfield as their most prestigious fixture if they played you regularly, for example. But that's because they like to think of themselves as unreconstructed republicans.... :D Bohs, however, would still probably see their games with Rovers as more prestigious than games with you. Likewise - Drogheda would probably rate regular games against a premier Dundalk side as more prestigious than regular games against Linfield - as the novelty factor would decline, whereas local derby importance doesn't.

City would probably have Linfield as its most prestigious game, due to historical and Derry-Belfast reasons. But Harps would probably rather play us regularly than yourselves, to be honest. Likewise for teams like Sligo, Galway etc - Linfield are really only a big draw at the moment because you're a novelty. If the tedium of playing you every season kicked-in, you'd soon see a lot of other clubs eclipsing you in terms of importance in fixtures.

So don't get carried away too much Steve - the world doesn't always revolve around Linfield. The Linfield games are important as a novelty, but like all novelties, the appeal usually declines...