European performances

[Paddyfield]

Why was this thread by The Sheliban moved to the Rubish bin?

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=67347

Agree or disagree with him, he has made a few interesting points. The botom line is that Irish Clubs have not upped the ante this year following the memorable results from the last few years.

Dermot Keely claims that summer soccer is not the soloution to Irish clubs progressing in Europe but professionalism is.

The Drogs are our only Club left in Europe and I hope they advance.

[Philly]

I don't see why that was removed either? Says alot about the mods on here.

Unfortunately yes, we have failed to meet any sort of standard in Europe this year. I was at the Drogs game and I must say I think they'll have a tough task in the next round but hopefully they will get through and continue to carry the flag for the eL this year. Derry must be very upset with how things turned out, but I think the timing was bad for them. Pat's showed us that the league isn't where we think it is. Cork at least made it through one round.

All the best Drogs. Your fans deserve a good European run from what I saw in Dalymount.

[dcfcsteve]

On the question of why it was moved ? No idea - seems silly.

On the issue itself - of us allegedly not progressing in Europe this year - we need a reality chech here.

Firstly - we have progressed. Our co-efficient score to-date for this year is higher than that for the 2002/3 season (0.16666), which is the figure that this year will replace in the 5-year rolling average. Our co-efficient score and strength has therefore improved overall, so we have progressed.

Secondly - we can't expect to blaze a trail in Europe each and every year. Last year was a particularly successful year - the like of which we'll be lucky to repeat once or twice in every 5 year cycle. We are very much dependent upon the luck of the draw - and for City and Pats it certainly wasn't a good draw this year.

So no need for panic or mourning yet. We'll have our good years and our bad years in Europe - that is inevitable. Just so long as the 5 year rolling average is tracking upwards, then we're making progress. Keep the faith people....

[Cymro]

I know this is probably not the best place to say this Steve, but you have noticed that your coefficient is the same as Wales's for this year and you have less wins, haven't you? ;)

I suppose I should wait and see what Drogheda do in the second round yet, but I just couldn't resist having my moment. :D

[dcfcsteve]

I know this is probably not the best place to say this Steve, but you have noticed that your coefficient is the same as Wales's for this year and you have less wins, haven't you?

I suppose I should wait and see what Drogheda do in the second round yet, but I just couldn't resist having my moment. :D

Even a stopped clock gets it right twice a day Cymro... :D

Welsh clubs have picked up a couple of wins this year against unspectaular opposition. Though it did the likes of TNS and Rhyl no good, as they still went out over the 2 legs.

And then there was the farcical performance of Camarthen....! :eek: Losing 14:3 to Brann was a pure joke - and by all accounts they only got their 3 consolation goals because Brann were so far ahead by that stage that they really just didn't care any more. That was the biggest spanking a club has taken in Europe in some time - it even made Glentoran look good.

The days of EL clubs getting spanked like that in the first round of any European competition are long over - so if you find some scant consolation in a handful of single-leg wins in Europe amidst the ongoing car crash of Welsh participation in Europe then you really must be desperate for good news.

And at least we still have a rep flying the flag for us in the next round....

[OneRedArmy]

Shels imploded, 10-15 top players left the League, Doolin is a very poor manager and Kenny clearly had Derry punching above their weight.....

Its hardly rocket science ffs.

[pineapple stu]

Hard to argue with that, to be honest.

As financial reality catches up with clubs, we'll do poorer in Europe. Our level, sadly is not what we've set in the past couple of years. Proper progress, and not Shels/Drogs/Pat's progress, is what's needed.

[Cymro]

Even a stopped clock gets it right twice a day Cymro... :D

It does indeed. How perceptive of you.


Welsh clubs have picked up a couple of wins this year against unspectaular opposition. Though it did the likes of TNS and Rhyl no good, as they still went out over the 2 legs.

On away goals. Which is a bloody annoying rule. Either way, at least our CL reps won their home leg, eh? ;) Puynik are also no better than Ventspils, before you counter. The away leg defeat was easily explainable by the vast distance between Northern Ireland and Armenia, but you should really have put the tie to bed before you went there anyway.


And then there was the farcical performance of Camarthen....! Losing 14:3 to Brann was a pure joke - and by all accounts they only got their 3 consolation goals because Brann were so far ahead by that stage that they really just didn't care any more. That was the biggest spanking a club has taken in Europe in some time - it even made Glentoran look good.

St. Pats fared worse the other night than Caerfyrddin. That's about as close to a comeback as you'll get from me here, though it is notable that Carmarthen finished 7th last year, sacked the boss that got them into Europe for the 3rd year running and lost their two best players to full time clubs. And they were playing a damn good side in Brann-probably the best side I'll watch this year in the flesh, since I never go to Premiership matches and the national side is rather poor at the moment.


The days of EL clubs getting spanked like that in the first round of any European competition are long over - so if you find some scant consolation in a handful of single-leg wins in Europe amidst the ongoing car crash of Welsh participation in Europe then you really must be desperate for good news.

Would you not consider 5-0 a bit of a spanking? It's not 14-3, but hey, let's not discount the importance of summer football in keeping the scores down. If carmarthen had been match fit, it might have been at least somewhat respectable, and vice versa for St. Pats.


And at least we still have a rep flying the flag for us in the next round....

Right. I forgot about Drogheda's awe-inspiring victory over Libertas. How foolish of me. :(

[A face]

Dermot Keely claims that summer soccer is not the soloution to Irish clubs progressing in Europe but professionalism is.

On the professionalism he is right, he is bang on the money there, across all of the clubs.

But if he is saying summer soccer isn't the answer and is suggesting that a return to winter football is then is is back to his normal ludicrous statements. The problem i have with Keely is than since his spell at Shels (pre Fenlon era remember) he has been one of the most negative outspoken commentators of our league on a consistent basis so its hard to take any of his comments with any great weight.

He is whiney and morbid and someone that should not speak for the league in any capacity imo. The FAI should actually be clamping down on people like him (feic it, they are clamping down all over the place with anyone who dares to speak out against them) so they cant damage things further.

Bare in mind i am saying all this with the last five years in mind. If anyone says that we have not improved then they should not be in a position to voice their opinion because it would be displaying a complete lack of knowledge for the domestic game and again shouldn't be in a position to voice their opinion.

[half_full]

While St.Pat's and Derry's results were poor this year, at least both got draws. A poor year whatever way you look at it, but who knows Drogheda for the group stages?

[bennocelt]

Derry didnt get a poor draw, they got a very weak team which they were unable to beat

St. Pats did get a tough one, and people should know that Odesne are a quality team and them and Fc Copenhagen are putting a lot of money into their squads for europe this year, so it wasnt a shock that Pats didnt beat them at all, and for them to get a draw was better than nothing

Drogheda did mess up out in san marino but there are through to the next round and might have a chance against helsingsborg (but I doubt it)

A bad year? yeah but not awful and our co efficient is better than years ago

[Saint Tom]

as bad as it is to be beaten five nil you got to look at the draw Pats got. Odense have beaten osasuna, hertha berlin in the past few years. They won the intertota cup last year (ie progressed to the uefa cup) only to be knocked out in the group stages on goal difference. There set up is far superior to anything any irish side have. impressive stadium, solid fanbase, youth academy.

Not excusig the fact that we were beaten five nil but we drew the highest ranked team available in the draw, and I have no doubt OB will be stringer this year than last.

[DmanDmythDledge]

howd odense get in the first qualifying round anyway????
Denmark's co-efficient. As it stands after this year Denmark's cup winner (Odense last year) would qualify straight for the second qualifying round.

[pineapple stu]

But if he is saying summer soccer isn't the answer and is suggesting that a return to winter football is then is is back to his normal ludicrous statements. The problem i have with Keely is than since his spell at Shels (pre Fenlon era remember) he has been one of the most negative outspoken commentators of our league on a consistent basis so its hard to take any of his comments with any great weight.

He is whiney and morbid and someone that should not speak for the league in any capacity imo. The FAI should actually be clamping down on people like him (feic it, they are clamping down all over the place with anyone who dares to speak out against them) so they cant damage things further.

Bare in mind i am saying all this with the last five years in mind. If anyone says that we have not improved then they should not be in a position to voice their opinion because it would be displaying a complete lack of knowledge for the domestic game and again shouldn't be in a position to voice their opinion.
You realise that you've just gone on a three paragraph rant on Keely without once trying to raise a counter argument against his point? If you were replying to a poster, that post would have been put to rubbish.

[pete]

Derry were seeded, not a reasonable draw but because their form is so poor they got poor results.

If you take away the 0-5 loss Pats results were ok as at least they got a draw at home.

Drogs may have progressed but anything less than two wins has to be deemed a failure.

[TonyD]

If you take away the 0-5 loss Pats results were ok as at least they got a draw at home.

Yeah, if you take away the 5-0 (Please) then Pats were just as good as Odense :D

[Drogman.]

Proper progress, and not Shels/Drogs/Pat's progress, is what's needed.

FFS, I know Shels went to the wall, but (so far) it looks like Pats and us have money pumped into the clubs by money men but also there is something in the background to keep it going, ie. New stadium for us.

I don't see what's wrong with having Drogs/Pats progress if it improves the clubs.

Clearly attempting to develop players in this country hasn't worked as they just get snapped up by English and Scottish clubs when they are young. Once every EL clubs is fully pro is when we will see the benefits of more homegrown talent staying and improving the league.

In the meantime, why should the Drogs or Pats have to wait for the rest to catch up? It's not really fair on them having other clubs holding progress back.

[pineapple stu]

FFS, I know Shels went to the wall, but (so far) it looks like Pats and us have money pumped into the clubs by money men but also there is something in the background to keep it going, ie. New stadium for us.
I'll believe the ground when I see it.

We can't guage our European progress with clubs who are racking up losses of a million a year is my point. They're simply unsustainable, as Shels and Dublin City showed. So this season's results, while disappointing compared to previous seasons, aren't really surprising.

[kdjaC]

I'll believe the ground when I see it.

We can't guage our European progress with clubs who are racking up losses of a million a year is my point. They're simply unsustainable, as Shels and Dublin City showed. So this season's results, while disappointing compared to previous seasons, aren't really surprising.

So we base the leagues euro progress on UCD the only club who dont lose money?


kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Where did I say that?

[kdjaC]

Where did I say that?



We can't guage our European progress with clubs who are racking up losses of a million a year is my point.

There, so who do we base it on ? UCD the only team not losing money*


*Rovers dont count.


kdjac

[pineapple stu]

You base it on the clubs not racking up losses of a million quid a year, obviously. The sustainable clubs. Would have thought that was fairly obvious.

[kdjaC]

You base it on the clubs not racking up losses of a million quid a year, obviously. The sustainable clubs. Would have thought that was fairly obvious.

Like?



kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Like what?

What part of this can possibly be confusing you? I'd no more base the league's progress on Drogs' and Pat's' results in Europe than I would Shels'.

[fitzknows]

What's wrong with investors pumping money into clubs? If clubs progress in Europe as a result then that's fine as far as I'm concerned. It's not as if it doesn't happen in other countries. Fair play to the likes of Garrett Kelleher and Vincent Hoey. Expecting clubs to compete in Europe with a budget consisting of gate receipts, advertising and fund raising is fairytale stuff.

[pineapple stu]

What's wrong with investors pumping money into clubs?
Nothing in particular, but if it's not sustainable, I wouldn't be using them as a barometer of progress. That's all.

[fitzknows]

But what's sustainable? The money Kelleher is investing in Pats is sustainable for him. Pats will have a better team and better facilities as a result. Better teams and better facilities make a better league. In an ideal world football clubs wouldn't need investors but in the real world our league is crying out for them if it wants to progress.

[pineapple stu]

Is it sustainable for him though? Shels fans always said they had a bottomless pit, and now they know better. Ditto Dublin City fans. Drogs fans say the same, but now their directors are coming out saying otherwise.

[fitzknows]

I don't know the facts but it would seem to me that the money Kelleher has invested at Pats amounts to little more than loose change for him. Drogheda's investors mightn't have pockets that deep but so what if they pull out. Drogheda will not be able to afford to keep their players but they will still have United Park. They would probably turn into relegation material but in the meantime they have won a Cup, 2 Setanta Cups and probably a league title this season. That would have been highly unlikely without the investors. Also if their investment pays off Drogheda will have a new stadium. All investments carry a degree of risk. Shels banked their success on the sale of Tolka Park. That was a huge risk and all bar the most loyal Shels fans saw the folly of it. A league without investors would be sustainable but poor. The best players will simply leave and play in other leagues where wages are higher thanks to investors.

[SligoBrewer]

There, so who do we base it on ? UCD the only team not losing money*


*shams dont count.


kdjac

we didnt lose money last year:rolleyes:

[kdjaC]

we didnt lose money last year:rolleyes:

Really? How come you having whiprounds for new signings and were unable to to sign your original manger?


The sustainable clubs.


I also thought it was fairly obvious so i will Student it up for you.

What Sustainable clubs in the EL?


kdjac

[kdjaC]

stu geneuine question are you a closet socialist or something??how in the name of god has a thread about european progress turned into a debate about what money pats/drogs have and shels/dublin city had??? jesus this is a football site and we do more talking about ****ing money and the lack thereof and no stu im not burying my head in the sand cos i know thats your next post from what ive written.

But therein lies the eternal question, how can any EL club make money?

Stu is an accountant so knows about money, i bet he can answer the above question easily.

kdjac

[pineapple stu]

You don't have to make money. All you have to do is break even to be sustainable. Football clubs in Ireland - and 99% of them across the world - are never going to make money. But there's a big difference between breaking even and losing a million a year. That's why I'm happy to categorise the clubs accordingly.


Drogheda's investors mightn't have pockets that deep but so what if they pull out. Drogheda will not be able to afford to keep their players but they will still have United Park. They would probably turn into relegation material
See, this is the exact point.

If Drogs' investors pull out, I'd agree with the scenario you've painted (unless they demand their money back, in which case Drogs are screwed). But in this scenario, Drogs won't be progressing in Europe any time soon. Their current progress is therefore temporary, dependent purely on someone pouring millions into the club rather than any advances the club itself has made. That's why the clubs who aren't racking up massive losses are the ones to be keeping an eye on as a barometer of the league's progress.

[Mr A]

The thing is though there always seems to be a few clubs spending recklessly/unsustainably. As soon as the current batch stop doing so someone else will take up the reins and do so for another while. That's just the way football is, you'll probably never get everyone to toe the financial line. Unless the FAI are serious about the 65% wage cap- and I certainly wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

[Billy Lord]

stu geneuine question are you a closet socialist or something??how in the name of god has a thread about european progress turned into a debate about what money pats/drogs have and shels/dublin city had??? jesus this is a football site and we do more talking about ****ing money and the lack thereof and no stu im not burying my head in the sand cos i know thats your next post from what ive written.

I've seen Shamrock Rovers win six leagues and 11 FAI Cups but my proudest moment as a fan was when we saved and took control of our club - and our club's destiny. We're no longer relying on anyone's personal generosity or whims but on the faith, devotion and vision of our own supporters. That's priceless.
If we make Europe next year it won't be because some rich bloke filled a void, it'll be because our fans put the effort in and earned it.
I've learned the hard way (thanks to a variety of Rovers' boards) that success is relative. Our future's in our hands and that's just brilliant.

[dfx-]

*Rovers dont count.


It'll be a safe day on our roads the day when Rovers don't count

[Saint MacDara]

Eh,your future is in your own hands is it?

Then who is building a home for SRFC in Tallaght?

[Billy Lord]

Eh,your future is in your own hands is it?

Then who is building a home for SRFC in Tallaght?

The taxpayer. And who owns 'your' club?

[Saint MacDara]

Yuck,im a part owner of Shams,im moving to Monaco:p

Yes,we have an investor putting his faith inot an irish club,any problem with that?
Maybe in a few years when your club become successful an investor or two will come along.

[Billy Lord]

Yuck,im a part owner of Shams,im moving to Monaco:p

Yes,we have an investor putting his faith inot an irish club,any problem with that?
Maybe in a few years when your club become successful an investor or two will come along.

Not interested. Our club belongs to the fans and that's fine by me. I have faith in our support and feel honoured to be a part-owner of SRFC.

[Steve Bruce]

If their is an invester coming into the league, it can be a good thing.

But what teams need is an invester, to put money in the infrustucture of the club.

New training facilities
New Youth Facilities
New stands/stadium
Club shop, retail units.
Restuarent
Hotels.

This to me would be more beneficial than coming in spending €500k in one season on players.

Although I do think that it would be wise for an investor to put some money in the team, especially in the first season, but the investor has to run the club in a sustainable way so that if he/she decided to pull out of hte club, the club would be able to sustain itself.

EDIT: Unfortunately at Linfield, we cannot get investors as we are a club and no one person or persons own our club. Our club is made up of members and the members elect the board and then run the club. If Bill Gates wanted to buy Linfield, he would have to get permission off the members(not sure what percentage, but I think 85% of the members have to vote for it)

[TonyD]

But what teams need is an invester, to put money in the infrustucture of the club.

New training facilities
New Youth Facilities
New stands/stadium
Club shop, retail units.
Restuarent
Hotels.



Which is pretty much what Kelleher is promising to do at Pats. (well the first 4 anyway) Maybe it's all bull**** and he's taking the supporters for a ride, but there's nothing to suggest this so far. I'm pretty damn sure Brian Kerr wouldn't be on board if this was the case. People comparing it to the Shels situation are missing one vital difference. Kelleher owns Pats and is also the Chairman now. It's not like the situation where Ollie basically mortgaged the clubs future to completely outside interests. Plenty of people here have slaughtered Niall Quinn and his consortium for investing so much money in Sunderland,(and Dermot Desmond at Celtic, Magnier and McManus at Man U) yet when an Irish millionaire does exactly what these people claim they want, i.e invests serious money in an Irish club, somehow that's still not right.

[Steve Bruce]

Which is pretty much what Kelleher is promising to do at Pats. (well the first 4 anyway) Maybe it's all bull**** and he's taking the supporters for a ride, but there's nothing to suggest this so far. I'm pretty damn sure Brian Kerr wouldn't be on board if this was the case. People comparing it to the Shels situation are missing one vital difference. Kelleher owns Pats and is also the Chairman now. It's not like the situation where Ollie basically mortgaged the clubs future to completely outside interests. Plenty of people here have slaughtered Niall Quinn and his consortium for investing so much money in Sunderland,(and Dermot Desmond at Celtic, Magnier and McManus at Man U) yet when an Irish millionaire does exactly what these people claim they want, i.e invests serious money in an Irish club, somehow that's still not right.

If he does that that's great.

I think peoples main problem with some investors is they pump in hundreds of thousands in the football team, run up a massive wage bill and put the future of the club in jeapordy. I'm not saying this is happening at Pats or anywhere else, but it has happened to two clubs recently and clubs with investors need to be more wary of who they have investing.

[Steve Bruce]

yeah your right an eternal question and the answer to it involves a complete change in the nations attitude to our leagu,which wont happen of course

No, that is not correct.

What clubs need to do and I'm talking about NIand ROI, is not spend more than they get in.

The problem with Irish Clubs north and south is they spend beyond their means.

A lot of players who are not the best of players still get over the odds wages. irish teams need to cut their cloth to stay financially solvent. Afterall if every club agreed a 20% cut in wages, the players in the league would have to accept it as they wouldn't have anywhere else to go.

[Jerry The Saint]

Very worrying to hear Pete Mahon tell Setanta that UCD can't continue as they are and are looking to go full-time professional soon with plans to bring in a few new players on big money. No specifics given as to where the money will come from or how UCD plan to keep their inflated wage bill under the new 65% limit. What are the fans doing to prevent this reckless, win-at-all-costs, damn-the-consequences behaviour:confused:

[pineapple stu]

I heard that (well, some of it; I don't recall him talking about bringing in big-money players, for example - he mentioned the possibility of full-time, more success and an academy attracting better players, but don't recall him discussing big wages).

I don't think the manager is required in a five minute interview to go into specifics, but I know there are plans to launch an academy next year in conjunction with, I think, the local council which will help increase income. Pete Mahon has agreed to manage it on a full time basis. There is a detailed five year plan in place (it's what kept us up last year), and evidently there has been a budget put in place, etc. This was all in the media at the start of the season, when Pete turned down the Shels job.

I'd still be surprised if we went full time, though, but it should be noted that with a team of students, it's much easier to go full time as (a) students don't need that much money and (b) they can do lectures on a Monday, and free the rest of their week up. In fact, that last has been in place for a number of years now (Sports Management course for one) and means that in effect, we're full time now bar the couple of more experienced players (Tony Mac, Alan Mahon, Allie Mac), and any switch would be more a reappraisal of how the players spend their time during the day. The manager is obviously an important, and difficult (as he's not a student) person to have full time, but that's sorted now as well.

However, I think your last line hysterics are more suited to a Shels or Drogheda fan, to be honest. Bear in mind that, unlike Drogs, Shels and Pat's, we can't have our ground sold from under us for housing and external profit.

[John83]

It'll be a safe day on our roads the day when Rovers don't count
I thought it was Bohs fans bricking buses these days?

[John83]

Very worrying to hear Pete Mahon tell Setanta that UCD can't continue as they are and are looking to go full-time professional soon with plans to bring in a few new players on big money. No specifics given as to where the money will come from or how UCD plan to keep their inflated wage bill under the new 65% limit. What are the fans doing to prevent this reckless, win-at-all-costs, damn-the-consequences behaviour:confused:
We're going to talk to the guys in charge, like we regularly do.

[ndrog]

I heard that (well, some of it; I don't recall him talking about bringing in big-money players, for example - he mentioned the possibility of full-time, more success and an academy attracting better players, but don't recall him discussing big wages).

I don't think the manager is required in a five minute interview to go into specifics, but I know there are plans to launch an academy next year in conjunction with, I think, the local council which will help increase income. Pete Mahon has agreed to manage it on a full time basis. There is a detailed five year plan in place (it's what kept us up last year), and evidently there has been a budget put in place, etc. This was all in the media at the start of the season, when Pete turned down the Shels job.

I'd still be surprised if we went full time, though, but it should be noted that with a team of students, it's much easier to go full time as (a) students don't need that much money and (b) they can do lectures on a Monday, and free the rest of their week up. In fact, that last has been in place for a number of years now (Sports Management course for one) and means that in effect, we're full time now bar the couple of more experienced players (Tony Mac, Alan Mahon, Allie Mac), and any switch would be more a reappraisal of how the players spend their time during the day. The manager is obviously an important, and difficult (as he's not a student) person to have full time, but that's sorted now as well.

However, I think your last line hysterics are more suited to a Shels or Drogheda fan, to be honest. Bear in mind that, unlike Drogs, Shels and Pat's, we can't have our ground sold from under us for housing and external profit.

you do understand that its the club selling the ground and not anyone else .therefore no one is selling the ground from under us .Still with the drogs obsession .Boring . How dare we try and progress and better ourselves .As i said before i would rather the club die and go out of buisness than be a ucd " fan " what ever that is ? Id rather watch local leauge games than heve to suffer ucd and that hell of a ground , :rolleyes:

[bigmac]

As i said before i would rather the club die and go out of buisness than be a ucd " fan " what ever that is ?

Careful what you wish for....