Do you want Derry, Drogs and Pats to progress?

[kdjaC]

Pats to go tru dont care about the others, more sure that we will win next monday than i am of us not getting hammered on thursday :)


kdjac

[ccfcgirl]

I hope all 3 progress...

[John83]

Do you think Glentoran fans would cheer on Linfield??
We should look to those bigots for an example now? :eek:


If we want to move on from being a small minded league, this kind of supporting whoever's doing the best in Europe oughta be gotten rid of.
If we want to move on from being a small league, we have to have teams regularly doing well in Europe.

[Torn-Ado]

I support Galway Utd but live in Gothenburg so when Derry City came to play IFK Göteborg last year, I could have done what Superfrank would have done and stayed at home but I didn't. I went to the Ullevi with the rest of the Derry fans and cheered them on and celebrated whén they scored. They were representing the country in Europe. The team and the fans both were excellent. The fans were praised by the police and and opposing fans for their behaviour and general antics.

I can see where you are coming from Superfrank with your stance on rivalries etc but we are not English, Spanish, Italian etc. The EL isn't a big league in European standards. Irish football fans really should get behind their clubs because even though they are representing their clubs, town, cities etc, they are also representing Ireland and at the end of the day winning in Europe is good for the league and football in this country.

[pineapple stu]

Fans of el clubs. I mean we all know the way posters go on here about other clubs and at el matches. Yet we're then ready to go off and support these teams when they play in Europe. WTF? :confused:
So fans of other eL clubs aren't going to take me seriously if I support Pat's against Odense? This poll says otherwise. In fact, I'm not taking you very seriously at the moment.

Have you no better argument than that?

[kdjaC]

Have you no better argument than that?

Ever been beaten 10-0 on agg in Europe?

If Yes please explain why i should support any other team in Europe?

If No please explain why i should support any other team in Europe?

As i said last season i kinda hoped some derry players would get knocks ruling them out of the next game vs pats, how can a Rovers fan honestly cheer for pats on thursday then want us to get beat 4 days later? Its not right.



kdjac

[pineapple stu]

No, we've never lost 10-0 in Europe.

I've also never seen a purple swallow. I mention that only because it appears about as relevant.

[Soko]

The games are not related. I am actively hoping Drogheda win their second round clash as well to add 6 games to their fixture list. Likewise for Pats, Derry really don't matter but its not going break my heart to see them do well.


This begrudgery is just aping those animals across the water once again. How terrible it would be to form our identity and hope our clubs bring the league some good publicity

[Block G Raptor]

What a ridiculous poll. of course any self respecting eL fan would want all three to progress. ffs if it was rovers in europe i'd want them to progress too

[kdjaC]

No, we've never lost 10-0 in Europe.

I've also never seen a purple swallow. I mention that only because it appears about as relevant.

So never seen the rovers display of 10-0 to the refugees at our next game vs them, oh i honestly cant wait to support them Europe next season :rolleyes:


kdjac

[gustavo]

But I'd say a lot of those same fans still wanted you to win that game before it started , the 10-0 to the Refugees thing just a bit of banter no harm in it :)

[Dodge]

I've no idea what you're referring to

[pineapple stu]

But I'd say a lot of those same fans still wanted you to win that game before it started , the 10-0 to the Refugees thing just a bit of banter no harm in it :)
Exactly.

Can't go getting in a huff every time opposition fans slag you.

[DmanDmythDledge]

All the big leagues have fierce rivalries, not always pretty, but it makes those leagues far more interesting to watch. Real-Barca, Inter-AC-Juve, Roma-Lazio, Ajax-Feyenoord-PSV, Rangers-Celtic....I can go on forever. These clubs all have really devoted fans who don't give two craps about any other team if they do well in Europe or whatever. It's something we should aspire to if we want to be taken seriously as a football league.

Imo, it's as if we're accepting the way our league is by just going off and supporting any ol' team that happens to have a chance of progressing, just so we can say "Been there, got the t-shirt". So what if one team gets though? If it's not your team, why support them? It's called rivalry. You can see the way we think about each other just by reading the forums. Yet when European season rolls around, we're all buddies cheering on whoever. It's pathetic. We might as well not support any teams and just put forward an el XI for every European game and then we can all support them. Imo, the idea of supporting whoever devalues the fan's reputations and the league will never progress. If you want one common team to support, support the national side.
First all there are very few rivalries in this league so your point has no merit. Fair enough if it's Bohs wanting Rovers to lose or Harps wanting Derry to lose but what's the harm in UCD wanting Pat's to win?

Teams in other countries can afford for their fellow teams to do poor as it won't affect them. If eL clubs do poorly in Europe it has an adverse effect on teams that qualify in the succeeding years.

[kdjaC]

Exactly.

Can't go getting in a huff every time opposition fans slag you.

Nowt to do with getting in a huff, its simply not supporting your rivals as you hate them.


kdjac

[pineapple stu]

Few minutes ago it was not supporting them because they held up a banner?

[TonyD]

When (if) we have the luxury of teams regularly doing very well in Europe then we can afford to carry domestic rivalries into these games. Until then, any good result for any team is a good result for the league. Not saying it would break my heart if Derry or Drogs lost, but I'd prefer them to win. (Mind you, there's always an exception isn't there - I could never bring myself to "support" Shels :p)

[superfrank]

In fact, I'm not taking you very seriously at the moment.
Really? I'm so upset.

Clearly lot's of people don't agree with me. That's fine by me. I've made my argument a few times now. There's no need for me to repeat myself.

[pineapple stu]

I've made my argument a few times now.
You haven't made any argument; that's my point. You've spouted clichés without actually showing how they relate to the issue at hand.

[superfrank]

You haven't made any argument; that's my point. You've spouted clichés without actually showing how they relate to the issue at hand.
Sorry, argument is too strong a word. Opinion, that suit you?

[mon_cutie07]

without getting stuck in this argument.....whats the predictions on saturday nights match against us?? or do i dare ask?:)

[pineapple stu]

Sorry, argument is too strong a word. Opinion, that suit you?
OK. And I've shown that opinion to be groundless.

[superfrank]

OK. And I've shown that opinion to be groundless.
You can think that if you want. I'd never rob anyone of their right to an opinion.

[sligoman]

OK. And I've shown that opinion to be groundless.In what way? You can't make anyone's opinion "groundless", an opinion is someone's own decision. You can't prove it wrong just cos you don't agree with it.

[Dazzy]

Hope the teams progress but voted don't care about Derry as I heard that if they progress the date of the cup game might be moved, which would mess up my chances of getting to it. Not sure it that is true mind you.

Only the UCD game is in doubt atm, The Harps game is only in doubt if we beat both Pyunik and Shaktar.

Hope all progress.

[Mr A]

Only the UCD game is in doubt atm, The Harps game is only in doubt if we beat both Pyunik and Shaktar.

Hope all progress.

Right so. In that case I wouldn't mind Derry making it through this round. Still, at 5-1 Pyunik are tempting........

[Risteard]

Hope all 3 progress.

[Shelsman]

In what way? You can't make anyone's opinion "groundless", an opinion is someone's own decision. You can't prove it wrong just cos you don't agree with it.

Yes. I don't agree with SuperFrank AT ALL, but he is entitled to his opinion.

Rivalry makes for a better atmosphere at a match but it must be kept in check i.e. no violence ( SuperFrank did use the word hate previously -as if we should aspire to this??? ).

Our league isn't strong enough ( as has already been said ) that we can afford to have our clubs knocked out in the first round.

We need to convert the barstoolers to follow Irish, not English clubs and one of the key issues is respect. One of the best way to get this is for our clubs to perform well in Europe ( both for the results / prestige and for the much needed money ).

Is this just a case of Bray desperately needing a rival to boost the atmosphere? How about UCD for a rival? or maybe Greystones or Wicklow Town will put a team into the league? There's certainly a good rivalry between the older Dublin clubs and also between Cork and Waterford, Derry and Finn Harps, Drogheda and Dundalk. Cork City are always looking to stuff the Dubs too!

Best of luck to Derry, Pats and Drogheda.

[Dodge]

Shelsman, as a follower of th club with probably the best recent Eurpean record, and certainly the highest european profile recently, do you think your european exploits have a) helped Shels and b) helped the league's attendances grow?

[oriel]

What a ridiculous poll. of course any self respecting eL fan would want all three to progress. ffs if it was rovers in europe i'd want them to progress too


Well said, why on earth would anyone on here want any of the 3 to fail (and the northern clubs too for that matter)

[GavinZac]

well, the tiny, vocal minority havent been involved in europe enough to care about seeding. the league has been their pinnacle for years, so seeing league rivals lose might be entertaining.

[superfrank]

Rivalry makes for a better atmosphere at a match but it must be kept in check i.e. no violence ( SuperFrank did use the word hate previously -as if we should aspire to this??? ).
I did not use the word hate. Get your facts right before you go accusing me. I do not condone violence, maybe you should read over my posts again.


We need to convert the barstoolers to follow Irish, not English clubs and one of the key issues is respect. One of the best way to get this is for our clubs to perform well in Europe ( both for the results / prestige and for the much needed money ).
Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

[superfrank]

well, the tiny, vocal minority havent been involved in europe enough to care about seeding. the league has been their pinnacle for years, so seeing league rivals lose might be entertaining.
Did you click on the poll results? Because I voted for the choice that said "didn't care". I'm not some saddo who wants to see every club fail in Europe just for the sake of humiliating them. I honestly don't care how any of the teams do.

Bray could easily be back in Europe anytime soon and in all honesty I wouldn't care about coefficients. I apologise for not being a European junkie.

[GavinZac]

Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

shel's overspending was the cause of their demise. they WERE consistently performing in europe until the pipe dream ended. had they been doing so in a financially stable state, the consistent performance would have paid off eventually, either by a gradual earning of respect or that one break through one day when an irish club reaches the group stages of a competition

[GavinZac]

Did you click on the poll results? Because I voted for the choice that said "didn't care". I'm not some saddo who wants to see every club fail in Europe just for the sake of humiliating them. I honestly don't care how any of the teams do.

Bray could easily be back in Europe anytime soon and in all honesty I wouldn't care about coefficients. I apologise for not being a European junkie.

thats a whole lot of "I"'s for someone i wasnt referring to.

[superfrank]

shel's overspending was the cause of their demise. they WERE consistently performing in europe until the pipe dream ended. had they been doing so in a financially stable state, the consistent performance would have paid off eventually, either by a gradual earning of respect or that one break through one day when an irish club reaches the group stages of a competition
Ok apart from the finances and overspending, has it won them any new fans? What was there last attendance? That's where the evidence to their failure lies.

As a matter of fact, do Cork sell out their home games? I know they sold out the European ones. I thought thewhole idea is to get people into the league games but clearly that isn't happening.

EDIT - This (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=726840&postcount=30) just proves what I'm on about.

[Shelsman]

Shelsman, as a follower of th club with probably the best recent Eurpean record, and certainly the highest european profile recently, do you think your european exploits have a) helped Shels and b) helped the league's attendances grow?

(a) Yes. Although more to keep us going ( albeit in a false economic position as it turns out! ).

(b) Perhaps but only marginally. Maybe it helped the league maintain attendance levels more so than increase them? I have to say I'd be reluctant to shell out €15 for a game every week so I'd imagine there are other factors at play when it comes to attendances?

Generally speaking, when Irish clubs draw a decent side in Europe the match is sold out in advance so it boosts the finances and also gives the league good exposure -the more we get of these two the quicker the league and attendances will improve.

[Shelsman]

I did not use the word hate. Get your facts right before you go accusing me. I do not condone violence, maybe you should read over my posts again.

OK. I'm not going to read through all the posts now so I take your word for it and apologize for the accusation -Sorry. I got you confused with another fan.


Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

Ultimately they did well but did not make a break through in terms of getting into the group stages of either the CL or the UEFA Cup. However, they gave us a lot of pride and happiness in their exploits.

It will really take a breakthrough to the group stages ( possibly for a few consecutive years ) to get a leap in interest in the Eircom League. If Irish Millionaires put some money into the game here rather than in English clubs it would help too.

We have made great progress in Europe since the turn of the century so we are on the way ( hopefully ) to making a big breakthrough.

Ultimately, to stop the exodus fans and money ( I'd guess €30 Million a year ) from Irish fans supporting English clubs then an Irish club will need to defeat and English team. Only at that stage will barstoolers wonder: "Well why AM I supporting the English team?" and perhaps change allegiance. It might take 10-20 years but it will be worth the wait. In the meantime we can start ( continue! ) with the elimination of Scottish clubs and hopefully draw back Irish fans who have been supporting Scottish clubs to the Eircom League. All a bit idealistic you might say, but sure what's life without idealism? :)

[GavinZac]

All a bit idealistic you might say, but sure what's life without idealism? :)The first division :p but i agree with your post.

[pineapple stu]

In what way? You can't make anyone's opinion "groundless", an opinion is someone's own decision. You can't prove it wrong just cos you don't agree with it.
I've not "proved wrong" superfrank' opinion at all. I've only noted to him that, based on the reasons he's quoted for having that opinion, the opinion is groundless. Big difference.

[superfrank]

I've not "proved wrong" superfrank' opinion at all. I've only noted to him that, based on the reasons he's quoted for having that opinion, the opinion is groundless. Big difference.
I don't feel my opinion is groundless. If it was groundless, I wouldn't have it as an opinion. We disagree.

[pineapple stu]

You haven't been reading my posts so.

[SkStu]

im with Frank on this one. Wanting your domestic rivals to succeed in Europe for your own sake is minnowism of the highest order. All clubs should aspire to achieving success for themselves.

That said i would be the first to say well done should they progress.

[pineapple stu]

You are indeed with Frank. Just like him, you're trotting out cliches about minnowism without bothering to explain the link between wanting local clubs to do well and exhibiting minnowism.

[SkStu]

All clubs should aspire to achieving success for themselves. Cheering on a rival (fierce or friendly) in the hope that it will benefit your club in the future is minnowism.

Can you explain how supporting your rivals in europe does any good? Apart from, in the event of them progressing, being able to tell your barstooling mates "i told you the leagues not that ****e". Then they can smile, ruffle your hair and go back to scratching their balls.

[pineapple stu]

Achieving success for your own club, and hoping a club succeeds in a competition you're not in are not mutually exclusive.

How does it do any harm supporting a local team? Realistically, it's not going to make any difference, so it's just a case of being a sour git for nothing really.

I've already explained one instance of how hoping eL clubs do well in Europe has affected me directly.

[SkStu]

I've already explained one instance of how hoping eL clubs do well in Europe has affected me directly.

this?

"And for what it's worth, when we beat Cork in the Cup as a First Division side theee years ago, I actually enjoyed it more because they'd been in the InterToto Cup Third Round the previous weekend."

clutching at straws there a little bit... :p

im not a sour git (well not all the time :o ) i just believe that you support your club and your club alone. I believe that cheering for whomever it may be in the hope that it might one day, in the distant or not so distant future, benefit your club is minnowism.

Its absolutely your prerogative to cheer for whoever you like but ill stick to cheering for Bohs and just Bohs. Sour git or not.

[pineapple stu]

clutching at straws there a little bit... :p
Another cliche. How ironic!

[SkStu]

whats really ironic is how clicheed it is to remark on people overusing cliches. BAM!

[superfrank]

You haven't been reading my posts so.
I have been reading your posts and what you've come up with hasn't made me change my mind. It hasn't made me doubt my opinion whatsoever.

I firmly believe that supporting other clubs "for the good of our league" is small-minded. It's not doing any good. How is cheering on your rivals to success good for your club?
Ok:
-They do better in Europe
-They make more money
-The coefficient goes up
-Their attendances go up

Unless your club qualifies for Europe, it doesn't benefit your club. Your club doesn't get the extra money. Your club doesn't get the extra fans. Your club won't have the European run to advertise for players. Ultimately the other club benefits and yours doesn't. Yes if you are to qualify for Europe, you'll get an "easier" draw but you'll still be behind the Derrys and the Corks.

If you want to see your nation do well, like I said, support the national team. If you want to see the el do well, go to the games. I honestly can't see how supporting your rival in a European game which has miniscule benefits to your club is worth it.

I watched the Derry match tonight. The Brandywell appeared to be full. Though I doubt it'll be full for their next league match. Shels, Cork and Derry have all made very good progress in Europe in recent years yet none of these clubs have seen a consistent large surge in public demand for replicas, merchandise, etc. Attendances are still bad and your average Joe on the street would care more for a rat-fight than to go see an el game.