12 July [Archive]

micls

11/07/2007, 7:30 PM

What do ye guys think of the Irish flags burning on top of the bonfires?
Its not really fair as many Derry City fans are not happy!;)

I find it funny, I guess if thats what they really want to do then thats that.
But I would imagine if i had a bonfire at the back of the house and had a union jack on the top of it I would imagine I would be getting a call from the local garda.

Is there a law against burning national flags? Isnt there one in America?

The law is its illegal to burn the American flag i think so in the North it would be the official flag and they could burn the tri-colour away

OhNoYouDidn't

11/07/2007, 8:06 PM

The law is its illegal to burn the American flag i think so in the North it would be the official flag and they could burn the tri-colour away

it very much is not, flag burning is protected under freedom of speech laws in the US.

SolitudeRed

11/07/2007, 8:39 PM

tetsujin1979

11/07/2007, 10:21 PM

Interesting story that I came accross the other day about the BNP planning to recruit at parades during the 12th!! I'd say they will probably find a few idiots willing to buy into their racist rhetoric.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6265020.stm
They tried it before with football hooligan firms, and were laughed out of it

Lionel Ritchie

12/07/2007, 11:40 AM

Really should be a national holiday down here as well. no feckin bonfires though!!! Enough of that carry on already down here.

galwayhoop

12/07/2007, 12:31 PM

Really should be a national holiday down here as well.

how so :confused:

Dodge

12/07/2007, 12:34 PM

how so :confused:

Whatever. A day off is a day off.

galwayhoop

12/07/2007, 12:44 PM

Whatever. A day off is a day off.

:eek:

shocking attitude tbh.

hopefully tongue in cheek

jebus

12/07/2007, 12:47 PM

Whatever. A day off is a day off.

Try joining the rest of us on the dole Dodge, everyday is a potential 12th of July ;)

Sligo Hornet

12/07/2007, 1:44 PM

Dodge[/B];722812]Whatever. A day off is a day off.

Is that where your Handle originates from then?;)

Dodge

12/07/2007, 1:44 PM

:eek:

shocking attitude tbh.

hopefully tongue in cheek

Not tongue in cheek at all. I'd lick the queen's arse if it meant I got an extra weeks holidays

Mind you I'd probably need more than that

Vitruvian Man

12/07/2007, 2:27 PM

Aye you free staters don't know what your missing out on:rolleyes:

Its not really any sort of culture is it burning flags and effigies of religious leaders, mind you there is a Nationalist bonfire night in August I think it is to comemerate the introduction of Internment its nowhere near as big though!

Interesting story that I came accross the other day about the BNP planning to recruit at parades during the 12th!! I'd say they will probably find a few idiots willing to buy into their racist rhetoric.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6265020.stm

I loved this bit...

Mr Kennedy, the UUP deputy leader, told the assembly the (BNP) party was not welcome. "I have said to them that this isn't the kind of imported hate-mongering that we want or need in Northern Ireland."

And who says it's only the Americans who don't do irony.

Lionel Ritchie

12/07/2007, 2:56 PM

how so :confused:

It commemorates an important event (or sequence of them) in Irish history for starters.

It'd be a handy way to "take back the 12th" from the uber-prods for another.

...and as Dodge said -sure it's a day off ...in July.

Schumi

12/07/2007, 2:58 PM

Mr Kennedy, the UUP deputy leader, told the assembly the (BNP) party was not welcome. "I have said to them that this isn't the kind of imported hate-mongering that we want or need in Northern Ireland." That'd be like Saudi Arabia importing oil.

Not Brazil

12/07/2007, 4:56 PM

Interesting story that I came accross the other day about the BNP planning to recruit at parades during the 12th!! I'd say they will probably find a few idiots willing to buy into their racist rhetoric.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6265020.stm

Don't think they'll have got much change out of the members of the Loyal Orange Lodge of Togo that took place in the demonstrations tho.:eek:

crc

12/07/2007, 5:22 PM

Really should be a national holiday down here as well.
I'd be somewhat in favour of that. It's not like everyone would be forced to go to a parade (more likely we'd all go to the sea-side), but it would be a harmless way of showing a bit of respect for the traditions of the other side, which would go along with LR's other post:

It'd be a handy way to "take back the 12th" from the uber-prods

Erstwhile B�z

12/07/2007, 7:07 PM

Yep, take the sting out of it.

Seems to have gone off brilliantly peacefully. A Good Thing.

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 10:03 AM

It commemorates an important event (or sequence of them) in Irish history for starters.

It'd be a handy way to "take back the 12th" from the uber-prods for another.

...and as Dodge said -sure it's a day off ...in July.

possibly. but a bank holiday on april 24th would be more important imo (and one on june 25th ;)). wouldn't be too against having the 12th so long as we got april 24th also.

btw the 12th is just as important a date in britain's history (and specifically their monarchy) as ireland's. a fact overlooked by britain in general leaving the irish protestants to claim the day as their own.

pete

13/07/2007, 10:08 AM

Was driving on Sunday evening & they have a history show on Newstalk. Very interesting discussion on the Battle of the Boyne.

Lionel Ritchie

13/07/2007, 10:44 AM

possibly. but a bank holiday on april 24th would be more important imo (and one on june 25th ;)). wouldn't be too against having the 12th so long as we got april 24th also.

btw the 12th is just as important a date in britain's history (and specifically their monarchy) as ireland's. a fact overlooked by britain in general leaving the irish protestants to claim the day as their own.

Don't we have Easter Rising commemorations already then?

mypost

13/07/2007, 11:49 AM

I'd be somewhat in favour of that. It's not like everyone would be forced to go to a parade (more likely we'd all go to the sea-side), but it would be a harmless way of showing a bit of respect for the traditions of the other side, which would go along with LR's other post:

There's not much chance of going to the seaside in this weather, more the Amazon.

Sure, if we're going to celebrate a day when the Irish flag is burned, sure why don't we have a day off for Independence Day, Bastille Day, Georges/David's/Andrew's/Columbus/VE Day, etc, etc, don't we have people from all over the world here?

Why work at all?? :confused::D

Erstwhile B�z

13/07/2007, 12:47 PM

Sure, if we're going to celebrate a day when the Irish flag is burned, sure why don't we have a day off for Independence Day, Bastille Day, Georges/David's/Andrew's/Columbus/VE Day, etc, etc, don't we have people from all over the world here?

Why work at all?? :confused::D
You seem a little bit confused about the ethnically British people in the country. You should learn more about them to ready yourself for reunification.

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 2:59 PM

Don't we have Easter Rising commemorations already then?

we don't have a public holiday for it.

easter rising commemorations seem to be the preserve of republican sinn fein and other such groups.

a national public holiday would allow all the people of ireland to celebrate the day and also may educate some people as to the degree that some went to, and the prices they paid, to allow us to live as we do today.... although i'm not sure that ireland in it's current guise (both politically or culturally) is within an asses roar of what the signaturies hoped for.

why would we want to have a public holiday for the 12th if we don't have one for the easter rising?

to my mind the 12th is a day for british protestants and those with an afinity to the monarchy. granted the battle was in ireland but it has more significance to britains religious history than irish history.

crc

13/07/2007, 3:38 PM

to my mind the 12th is a day for british protestants
I don't think Protestants in Britain give a hoot.

a national public holiday would allow all the people of ireland to celebrate...
I agree that we need to be inclusive. We already have a national holiday that gets wide acceptance across all traditions, on 17th of March.

why would we want to have a public holiday for the 12th
Remember that green, white and orange thingy?

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 3:54 PM

I don't think Protestants in Britain give a hoot.
agreed. but as i said:
to my mind the 12th is a day for british protestants and those with an afinity to the monarchy. granted the battle was in ireland but it has more significance to britains religious history than irish history.
to translate - why should we be celebrating a day which has had more significance to the british monarchy (and britains religious path) than it does the 26 counties. i'm not distanceing myself from northern nationalists but just showing how it is more relevant to british mainlanders than us in the 26. so why should we celebrate it if mainland britain doesn't! as my original post after all was in response to someone calling for the 26 counties to mark the date with a public holiday!! in short it has much less to do with people in the RoI than those in Britain.

I agree that we need to be inclusive. We already have a national holiday that gets wide acceptance across all traditions, on 17th of March.
Which has become a Leprechaun-suit wearing drinkfest! With absolutely no relevance to it's original intention of marking the foundations of religion on the island.
A national holiday to commemorate something from our recent history which represents something meaningfull would be good instead of the way we now celebrate our patron saint’s day! britain has it's Remembrance Day for it's war dead so why shouldn't we have one to mark those who gave their lives for irish freedom. it could commemorate all who died from all era's including those from The Rising (and just use the date of the start of the Rising as a marker).

why would we want to have a public holiday for the 12th
Remember that green, white and orange thingy?
If you are going to quote me then have the manners to include my full sentence and not just part of it :rolleyes:
as i said:
why would we want to have a public holiday for the 12th if we don't have one for the easter rising?

oh and 'that green, white and orange thingy' you speak of, is that the same 'thingy' that is placed on top of the bonfires up north around this time of year????
i happen to know the meaning of 'that green, white and orange thingy' but my Orange bretheren obviously lost it somewhere in the translation!

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 4:08 PM

Furthermore, National Holidays marking religious landmarks are redundant at this point in time as this country (and the Western World in general) is practically non-religious. even look at Good Friday which is now celebrated by 'partying at home' instead of commemorating the death of Christ by abstenence!! Or Christmas Day (Santa and presents V birth of Christ) or Shrove Tuesday/Ash Wednesday (Pancakes V Lent)!!!

Packie Bonner's save in Italia 90 would be observed closer to what it would actually commemorate than another religious holiday imo.

crc

13/07/2007, 4:17 PM

to translate - why should we be celebrating a day which has had more significance to the british monarchy (and britains religious path) than it does the 26 counties. i'm not distanceing myself from northern nationalists but just showing how it is more relevant to british mainlanders than us in the 26. so why should we celebrate it if mainland britain doesn't! as my original post after all was in response to someone calling for the 26 counties to mark the date with a public holiday!! in short it has much less to do with people in the RoI than in Britain.
It does have less to do with the 26 counties than with Britain. However, (the self-titled) 'Ireland' (i.e. the Republic of Ireland) aspires to unite everybody in Ireland. Not just in a territorial sense, but in more so in a way in which the two major traditions can live side by side (especially since the re-wording of Articles 2 & 3). In this regard, it would be right and proper for those who are comfortably in the majority to reach out the hand of friendship to those in the minority. After all, one of the main reasons that Protestants are mainly Unionist is because they fear that Catholics have a malevolent agenda against them; we should do something to amend this.

why would we want to have a public holiday for the 12th if we don't have one for the easter rising?
I have different views on the Easter Rising, but I think that's a different discussion. Maybe there should be a holiday to commemorate it, but I think that it should stand on its own merits. What I really object to is saying that you can't do something for one side unless you do something for the other. If an Easter Rising holiday were merited, Dublin would have very little trouble implementing it. A 12th holiday, on the other hand, would be a demonstrable statement that the south holds no ill-will against Protestants.

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 4:31 PM

It does have less to do with the 26 counties than with Britain. However, (the self-titled) 'Ireland' (i.e. the Republic of Ireland) aspires to unite everybody in Ireland. Not just in a territorial sense, but in more so in a way in which the two major traditions can live side by side (especially since the re-wording of Articles 2 & 3). In this regard, it would be right and proper for those who are comfortably in the majority to reach out the hand of friendship to those in the minority. After all, one of the main reasons that Protestants are mainly Unionist is because they fear that Catholics have a malevolent agenda against them; we should do something to amend this........
A 12th holiday, on the other hand, would be a demonstrable statement that the south holds no ill-will against Protestants.

why is it always concession to the Unionists?

We in the south have a flag that represents both traditions of the Island despite the fact that on an island wide basis catholics out number protestants by approximately 4 to 1 and on a RoI basis by about 9 to 1! we have agreed to reword articles 2 and 3 by voting for the GF agreement. we have no policies which favour any person over another whether it be sex/race or religion. have a population where the majority care more about Taxation than Unification and we don't give a toss in general about religion (for good or bad) and now you want us to celebrate one British King defeating another just to show the unionists that we bear them no ill - just to satisfy their ingrained paranoia!!!

Get it through your head - the vast majority of people in the RoI/26 counties/south couldn't give a toss about Protestant or Catholic at this moment in time.

as ye say up North, Catch yerself on!!!

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 4:44 PM

Erstwhile B�z

13/07/2007, 7:09 PM

why don't Unionists create a flag to represent both communities???? oh, no, wait there is already one of those but they choose to burn it on bonfires.

now who bears who ill will? and who is paranoid? answers on a postcard.
If a flag can hold a symbolic meaning, then it is possible for that meaning to be altered over time. Particularly if people in your community have been murdered in the name of that flag. Murder equals ill will, does it not? (And I know that the other side, those animals, was much worse for that kind of thing, but they both did it, so shut up.)

I'm as united-Ireland as they come, and know my republican history, but I'm not certifiably insane enough to think that it's simply a matter of those eejits up in the North-East needing to be educated about what the orange bit on the other side of the white bit "means"; tough **** � that has been wrecked. It doesn't mean that for them, and to be brutally honest, they are the ones that count when you're talking about how orange fits into the whole thing. Next flag, please! Unfortunate, but true. When the country is eventually united, there's not a hope in hell of having the tricolour as the flag and trying to pass it off as a flag of unity. It's not the first innocent emblem to be so ruined and nor is it the first honourable aspiration of those who would unite Irishmen to have been completely ****ing raped by its supposed guardians.

You can be an unrepentant republican and indeed support physical force while still recognizing that the most recent campaign, with its sectarian taint, has been completely counter-productive.

Poor Student

13/07/2007, 7:15 PM

Does the 12th of July not technically constitute a victory of political freedoms and constitutional monarchy over absolutism? I know that's not how it works out every year but it's not as simple as giving a day to Protestants like one or two posters make out, is it?

That said, I'm with Dodge on the idea of having a holiday every 12th. Any extra bank holiday is a good one.

galwayhoop

13/07/2007, 10:21 PM

If a flag can hold a symbolic meaning, then it is possible for that meaning to be altered over time. Particularly if people in your community have been murdered in the name of that flag. Murder equals ill will, does it not? (And I know that the other side, those animals, was much worse for that kind of thing, but they both did it, so shut up.)

I'm as united-Ireland as they come, and know my republican history, but I'm not certifiably insane enough to think that it's simply a matter of those eejits up in the North-East needing to be educated about what the orange bit on the other side of the white bit "means"; tough **** — that has been wrecked. It doesn't mean that for them, and to be brutally honest, they are the ones that count when you're talking about how orange fits into the whole thing. Next flag, please! Unfortunate, but true. When the country is eventually united, there's not a hope in hell of having the tricolour as the flag and trying to pass it off as a flag of unity. It's not the first innocent emblem to be so ruined and nor is it the first honourable aspiration of those who would unite Irishmen to have been completely ****ing raped by its supposed guardians.

if you think that the tri-colour has lost it's true meaning due it's association with only one side (very good point btw) then the 12th most certainly has no place as a public holiday due to it's use/mis-use by the opposite side.

poor student/dodge ye can go on all month about how a bank holiday is a bank holiday but that is just a microcoism of how our society is totally devoid of any cultural, moral or religious values. sad to think in my opinion.
for what it is worth how about a holiday to commemorate adolf hitlers birthday, or ask those in palistine to have a bank holiday to mark the formation of israel (just to show them they bear them no ill-will) or closer to home how about one to mark the day oliver cromwell landed on these shores?? don't give me 'a bank holiday is a bank holiday, and it doesn't matter what it is for i'll take the extra day off!!!'

if ye want an extra bank holiday so much why not petition to get a day to mark the famine or some other event which has affected irish history. but please don't try to come over all this embrace other cultures when talking about a holiday whose sole function has been triumphialism of one tradition over another for many many years and has marked the high water mark of annual trouble and confrontation for decades.

SolitudeRed

13/07/2007, 10:30 PM

Don't think they'll have got much change out of the members of the Loyal Orange Lodge of Togo that took place in the demonstrations tho.:eek:

Well from what I read they aren't targetting the Orangemen themselves but rather people watching the parades! Saw one of their leaflets the other day some guy in work had one! it was the usual scaremongering ****e about getting overrun by non white immigrants who were gonna steal your job or your Dole money:D It was produced by some group named the British Peoples Party a front for the BNP me thinks!

Random fact about William of Orange: He had the full backing of the Pope at the time of his campaign against James:eek:

Poor Student

14/07/2007, 12:23 AM

poor student/dodge ye can go on all month about how a bank holiday is a bank holiday but that is just a microcoism of how our society is totally devoid of any cultural, moral or religious values. sad to think in my opinion.
for what it is worth how about a holiday to commemorate adolf hitlers birthday, or ask those in palistine to have a bank holiday to mark the formation of israel (just to show them they bear them no ill-will) or closer to home how about one to mark the day oliver cromwell landed on these shores?? don't give me 'a bank holiday is a bank holiday, and it doesn't matter what it is for i'll take the extra day off!!!'

In Slovenia they have Reformation Day, despite being a Catholic country, for the Protestant minority there (and it is a small one). Feel free to work on the 12th of July in protest, I'll put my feet up.;)

Lionel Ritchie

14/07/2007, 9:58 AM

Random fact about William of Orange: He had the full backing of the Pope at the time of his campaign against James:eek:

Random Fact no.2: One of Williams battalions called the Flemish Dragoons was composed entirely of Roman Catholics. Even their uniforms were "Marian" Sky-Blue.

I'm scarcely @rsed with dealing GHs' 'one size fits all' view of Irishness and Irish culture. Been down this road before with Mypost.

Dodge

14/07/2007, 10:15 AM

poor student/dodge ye can go on all month about how a bank holiday is a bank holiday... sad to think in my opinion.
for what it is worth how about a holiday to commemorate adolf hitlers birthday... don't give me 'a bank holiday is a bank holiday...

if ye want an extra bank holiday so much why not petition to get a day to mark the famine or some other event which has affected irish history...
Tell you what you start that campaign and I'll make a post on the internet agreeing with it. Hopefully yo'll be able to understand my post that time

Not Brazil

15/07/2007, 3:23 PM

I'm as united-Ireland as they come, and know my republican history, but I'm not certifiably insane enough to think that it's simply a matter of those eejits up in the North-East needing to be educated about what the orange bit on the other side of the white bit "means"; tough **** � that has been wrecked. It doesn't mean that for them, and to be brutally honest, they are the ones that count when you're talking about how orange fits into the whole thing. Next flag, please! Unfortunate, but true. When the country is eventually united, there's not a hope in hell of having the tricolour as the flag and trying to pass it off as a flag of unity. It's not the first innocent emblem to be so ruined and nor is it the first honourable aspiration of those who would unite Irishmen to have been completely ****ing raped by its supposed guardians.

You can be an unrepentant republican and indeed support physical force while still recognizing that the most recent campaign, with its sectarian taint, has been completely counter-productive.

Excellent post.

The militant, so called upholders of your national flag soiled it (and continue to do so) by attempting to vilify and demonise the "orange" bit at every opportunity.

Those who do the demonising are supported by the majority of the "nationalist" population in Northern Ireland.

Many people in Northern Ireland, wrongly, associate your national flag with the Provos and other militant republican groupings.

It, quite simply, is not a flag that will ever unite the people of this island.

theworm2345

15/07/2007, 5:10 PM

I don't think there is a law in America against it, as a matter of fact, if you drop one on the ground you are supposed to burn it. Also, you cannot leave it out in the bad weather and if you leave it up at night you are supposed to have a light on it

RogerMilla

16/07/2007, 9:02 AM

Excellent post.

The militant, so called upholders of your national flag soiled it (and continue to do so) by attempting to vilify and demonise the "orange" bit at every opportunity.

Those who do the demonising are supported by the majority of the "nationalist" population in Northern Ireland.

Many people in Northern Ireland, wrongly, associate your national flag with the Provos and other militant republican groupings.

It, quite simply, is not a flag that will ever unite the people of this island.

Interesting comments lads , wonder if we would could manage to a agree on a flag for the whole island ? even if there was never a political union it would be good to have a flag for the boxers , rugby team , cricket team etc.

Lionel Ritchie

16/07/2007, 9:25 AM

Interesting comments lads , wonder if we would could manage to a agree on a flag for the whole island ? even if there was never a political union it would be good to have a flag for the boxers , rugby team , cricket team etc.

Ane of these should adequately encapsulate our shared heritage...

flag 1 (http://www.ils.unc.edu/parkproject/kids/danjdoz/rain.gif)
flag 2 (http://www.aperfectworld.org/clipart/weather/rain_small.gif)
flag 3 (http://www.aperfectworld.org/clipart/weather/raincloud_small.png)

Dodge

16/07/2007, 9:26 AM

If there is ever even a chance of a united Ireland the flag is the least of our worries.

endabob1

16/07/2007, 10:42 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg

Surely this would be the most suitable?

Erstwhile B�z

16/07/2007, 10:57 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg

Surely this would be the most suitable?
Nah. If that was the route to be taken, then recognition would have to be given to the inclusion of the current 6-county state as opposed to Ulster, if you follow me. That flag (though it's pretty cool) would pretty much ignore it. The yellow-and-red Ulster flag no more represents the six-county majority than the white-and-red Stormont flag represents the Monaghan footballers.

I'm afraid it's going to have to be something completely new that will probably be diabetes-inducingly saccharine.

There's far too much blue on the cricket flag they were using at the World Cup for it to be an all-Ireland emblem, given that it seemed to be in contrast to the green shamrock. Someone's going to have to invent a new colour.

Dassa

01/08/2007, 3:05 PM

why is it always concession to the Unionists?

We in the south have a flag that represents both traditions of the Island despite the fact that on an island wide basis catholics out number protestants by approximately 4 to 1 and on a RoI basis by about 9 to 1! we have agreed to reword articles 2 and 3 by voting for the GF agreement. we have no policies which favour any person over another whether it be sex/race or religion. have a population where the majority care more about Taxation than Unification and we don't give a toss in general about religion (for good or bad) and now you want us to celebrate one British King defeating another just to show the unionists that we bear them no ill - just to satisfy their ingrained paranoia!!!

Get it through your head - the vast majority of people in the RoI/26 counties/south couldn't give a toss about Protestant or Catholic at this moment in time.

as ye say up North, Catch yerself on!!!

Im glad to hear this because alot of people like me in NI have little care for the ROI. I like people Ive met from the ROI but the 26 counties very rarely enters my head. It must also be noted that as much as people go on about the ROI flag representing everyone on the island, its a flag that I have no affinity to in the slightest and I also say the same about the Union Jack.

It doesnt matter what it was meant to represent when created, it is what it has come to represent for many that is vital.