War

[Badweather Fan]

Could it really be that the yanks are getting a bit of a battering?
Obviously they're eventually going to topple Baghdad but i reckon their casualties on the propaganda box could just be the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
There seemed to be mixed signals after that bomber was downed yesterday.
The uk and us seemed to have different explanations.
They're hiding a lot of the not too romantic truths.
Its hard to describe how ya feel when ya see killed 'ally' soldiers.
You know the pictures are gonna be used to motivate soldiers for more deaths.
You know there's so many similar iraqis lying dead undocumented.
But it still fails to detract from the absolute horror and pointlessness of it all and how unnecessary, the soldiers death is.
Sad times.

[sadloserkid]

What I find hilarious is the amount of their own men the yanks and brit sh1ts are killing. The peak of military? Says it all really... :rolleyes:

[Kickeroo]

gee, hilarious. Death...what a riot.

Grow up.

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Kickeroo
gee, hilarious. Death...what a riot.

Grow up.

Sorry. Forget hilarious then. Deserved maybe? The war is wrong but you're too gullible to see that your unelected president is using it as an excuse to put a smoke screen in front of people like you. I feel for every innocent civilian who dies in this war and even for the Iraqi soldiers who dies while defending their homeland from invasion. The invaders themselves deserve nothing but contempt.

[pete]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
...and even for the Iraqi soldiers who dies while defending their homeland from invasion. The invaders themselves deserve nothing but contempt.

Bit of a sad opinion you got there.

Clearly the US was not going to openly admit a pilot was missing over Iraq. It would not have served the pilot any purpose for the US to basically admit to the Iraqis that their search is not in vain.

btw i'd always expect Sky to eat up the propanda on the US/Uk side but been a bit disappointed that the BBC not far off the SKy policy - seems the only palce to get independent views is in the print media...

[Badweather Fan]

To be fair, i'd trust Raidio Teilifis Eireann for the oul war coverage alright.

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by pete
Bit of a sad opinion you got there.

Care to substantiate? I believe that the yank/brit invasion of Iraq is wrong. I believe that every one of their soldiers is wrong. I find it very, very difficult to display sympathy for people who wouldn't have died had they not been invading another country against the wishes of not only the UN but in the case of the brits their own populace.

'Bad Karma follows you around' - great song.

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
Sorry. Forget hilarious then. Deserved maybe? The war is wrong but you're too gullible to see that your unelected president is using it as an excuse to put a smoke screen in front of people like you. I feel for every innocent civilian who dies in this war and even for the Iraqi soldiers who dies while defending their homeland from invasion. The invaders themselves deserve nothing but contempt.

Actually I don't mean that literally. Nobody should die in a war and my coments above were rather insensitive. I apologise for them. However I'm pleased that in addition to not having it all their own way the Yanks are sportingly doing their bit to even up the odds.

Finally I just can not believe that after all this time Conor has finally expressed an opinion on something! ;)

[Badweather Fan]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
However I'm pleased that in addition to not having it all their own way the Yanks are sportingly doing their bit to even up the odds.
What do ya mean?
Shooting themselves down?

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Badweather Fan
What do ya mean?
Shooting themselves down?

Er... yeah... basically... :o Oh I'm going straight to hell... I just find it peculiar that what is allegedly the finest military body on our planet seem just as busy crashing helicoptors in mid-air and shooting journalists as they do butchering Iraqis (innocent or otherwise).

[Badweather Fan]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
Oh I'm going straight to hell
No, you're not.
You're mocking people on the way down.
Did they shoot that itn fella?

[sadloserkid]

It's presumed they did yeah. And to me that's much sadder than any soldier dying. Whatever about soldiers on either side, there's no way he should have died out there.

[Badweather Fan]

They're always hanging out of speeding vans getting the best photos of the people shooting at them.
The real story.
Which is not what we're getting at the moment.
The truth, the whole truth + Pentagon briefings.

[Schumi]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
It's presumed they did yeah. Yeah, it was so called 'friendly fire'; a truly awful phrase.

[Badweather Fan]

Ya sickening use of words.
Friendly fire and
Collateral damage.
Our (hippy) french lecturer blew her only hour of the week, Friday condemning words based on violence.
"having a stab at goal"
"photo shoot"

[pete]

Is looking at the death US or UK soldiers fleefully any better than People cheering at missles hitting Iraq? Soldiers do not decide to engage in war, they just doing their job although it happens to involve killing people.

The war is unjust, possibly immoral & certainly illegal.

As i may have said here before you can be sure the US would not be engaged in this war if they knew beforehand their casualties (i.e. deaths) would be in the thousands as opposed to the hundreds. Approx 100k Iraq deaths as opposed to 100-150 coalition deaths in GWI is a telling statistic.

btw just to drag Conor back in but IMO the irish governments position (..do they have one?) with regards Shannon & the US military has been shameful. Hoe the hell is withdrawing military landing rights at Shannon a hostile act towards the US? Is dubya gonna tell Micheal Dell or Intel to poull out of Ireland?

:rolleyes:

[Badweather Fan]

They're all selfish motives though Conor.
They're all easy way out non-decisions.

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Conor74
And we can put ourselves on the periphery in terms of world affairs and isolate ourselves from the US but it will not make one jot of difference to Iraq lives.

But it would be right and that's more important.

[sadloserkid]

Yeah but Conor surely we should be trying to make our government the best in Western Europe rather than saying "We've achieved mediocrity! Score! Let's take the next generation or so offf..."?

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Conor74
biased neutrality.

That's a pretty sick concept... Roy Keane would never hear of such a thing!!! :D

[sadloserkid]

I personally think we should have yeah. That's probably just my youthful idealism shining through though!

[DrogMan]

Even though it sickens me to say so, I think Connor is right. No government here would risk all that so that they could say that they are neutral, I think not!!
It just goes to show what a sad and crap world we live in today, but like most things we have to make the most of it so I try and not dwell on it too much as the Yanks and Brits maybe riding high at the moment but you know the saying, "What goes up must come down" ;)

[Badweather Fan]

Originally posted by Conor74
Hopefully one of them B52's taken out by a little fellow with a RPG grenade launcher sitting on a camel... I am one of those that would love to see a little bit of the smugness, the "best weaponry in the world" humbled a little.

Of course, I hope the crew eject safely and get away - I have said it before, these people are just cannon fodder and have no part to play in the decision making. But I just wanna see some fireworks, a "BOOM" that doesn't contain an Iraq orphanage or hospital in the middle of it...
Know what you're saying alrightbuthey've had a good few 'losses' already to watch.
Tariq Aziz was doing a Naseem Hamed impression there while ago.
"They will lose.
Come here and they will die.
They will be buried in the Iraqi desert."
Strong words.

[pete]

The irish governemnet hide behind a 2nd UN rsolution for weeks until that never happened.

FF have been the so called bastions of neutrality over the years so a bit ironic they be the party to final show up the chirade it really was.

I'm not keen on neutrality but according to the laws of this country (or at least the implied laws) letting the US airforce land at Shannon is most probably illegal.

If the irish government were so comfortable in their policy to support the US why they keep it a secret so long?

[Badweather Fan]

Whats the story about the Shannon landings being legally challenged by some Vietnam veteran Irishman?

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
That's a pretty sick concept... Roy Keane would never hear of such a thing!!! :D

I hate having to agree with Conor:D , but, biased neutrality has been the lot of the Irish Government ever since the concept was 'born' during the 2nd World War. To forcefully, and meaningfully, take on the Yanks would mean Ireland losing alot more than we'd gain. Yeah, we'd gain the moral high ground, a clear conscience and thecapacity to sleep easily at night, but, what price that if our economy goes down the bloody s***ter??

[Macy]

Originally posted by pete
FF have been the so called bastions of neutrality over the years so a bit ironic they be the party to final show up the chirade it really was.

I'm not keen on neutrality but according to the laws of this country (or at least the implied laws) letting the US airforce land at Shannon is most probably illegal.
Interesting that FF are willing to give up neutrality in support of this war, but during WWII Dev wasn't willing to give up neutrality in the case of a just war (against Hitler and Facism) in return for the United Ireland that Churchill was offering....

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Macy
Interesting that FF are willing to give up neutrality in support of this war, but during WWII Dev wasn't willing to give up neutrality in the case of a just war (against Hitler and Facism) in return for the United Ireland that Churchill was offering....

It pains me to say this, but, Dev was damn right not to go for that one. Would've been alot more trouble than it was worth trying to control an overwhelming, and militant, Protestant population. We'd have been left with a second serious civil war on our hands.

[pete]

Originally posted by Shed End John
...but, what price that if our economy goes down the bloody s***ter??

How? Shannon is nothing more than convenience top the US (i.e. if stopped using they'd just land in the UK or Germany) so what exactely would the US do to Ireland if it was blocked cos of neutrality?

:confused:

btw Turkey at least got 1billion for only allowing over flight rights.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by pete
How?

Simple, if we were to rub the Yanks up the wrong way, and they decided to cut any and all trading ties with us, how do you think that would affect the Irish economy, seeing as America is one of our two biggest trading partners?? Britain being the other.

[Schumi]

There's no chance of that happening. The Irish-American lobby would go ape ****, the EU would go ape **** and I doubt it's even an issue for the yanks in the first place.

[pete]

Originally posted by Shed End John
Simple, if we were to rub the Yanks up the wrong way, and they decided to cut any and all trading ties with us, how do you think that would affect the Irish economy, seeing as America is one of our two biggest trading partners?? Britain being the other.

Not possible. Heard of something called the World Trade Org? Do you think the US would risk a trade war with the UE just cos they have to use another airport?

Interestingly the US almost sent a rite to the WTO so they could block something like 4billion worth of french imports but backed off when they realised the French already had a similar case lined up against the US - Even dubya isn't stupid enough to start a trade war with no winners.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by pete
Not possible. Heard of something called the World Trade Org? Do you think the US would risk a trade war with the UE just cos they have to use another airport?


And how would that ever happen? Ireland is a small, two-bit player in EU terms. They're NEVER going to bend over backwards on our account.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Conor74
Macy, if you thought Churchill, of all people, was going to give up NI, of all places, and leave the Unionists, of all communities, fend for themselves in a United Ireland....then...then...we differ in opinion... We were neutral because it was a bit soon to be fighting with the British after the War of Independence and the Economic War.
Well that was the offer on the table, and all that would've been needed was some kind of treaty backed by the yanks....
The whole not fighting with the Brits thing is a cop out - it was fighting Hitler and the Nazi's, and Facism in general not some imperal war.... For starters when that offer was made the Yanks were fully involved....

For once I'm not just having a pop at FF for the sake of it, simply highlighting yet more inconsistencies....

[Macy]

Defo, just wait for hell to finish freezing over first....