View Full Version : Tour de France 2007
Dodge
26/07/2007, 12:00 AM
Is there any other sport where drugs is used as widely in?
As I said above, from reading Game of Shadows, athletics and baseball would be the worse.
As Macy said above cyclists go through more testing than anyone.
The question is do more rigourous tests catch more people because of the tests, or because of the amount of doping
the 12 th man
26/07/2007, 5:06 AM
I'd say drug taking is rampant in a lot of sports (Jockeys well known to do it).
A German TV official who was asked (after he pulled the plug on the Tour) would he have done the same if a Footballer was caught during the World Cup refused to answer the question.
Is there any other sport where drugs is used as widely in?
Well it's not like drugs/ methods that increase aerobic capacity, stamina, recovery etc wouldn't be useful in other sports...
No other sports do the number of tests, or the amount of different tests as cycling. If footballers were doing the blood transfusions who the fook would anyone ever know if they're never tested? Same with the testosterone that is used to help recovery which surely has potential for footballers?
endabob1
26/07/2007, 8:06 AM
There are Negative and positives in all of this,
All of these drug problems are undoubtedly turning people of the sport, no one wants to watch a sport when you're constantly wondering if the winner is juiced up, it must surely disuade kids from getting involved at a serious level.
On the plus side, yes there are drugs in cycling but after years of having their head in the sand they are making huge leaps forward. 2/3 years ago would a team have sacked the race leader for lieing to them about why he missed an out of competition test, I think not. How many other sports still have their head in the sands, athletics is certainly no cleaner than cycling and has nowhere near the amount of testing that cycling does. Pat McQuaid was on 5live here this morning and was asked when he thought the next drug free Tour would be, he said they've had 2 disastrous Tours they can't afford a 3rd one next year, which is why he hopes it will be drug free. I hope that doesn't mean they return to the days of sweeping it under the carpet.
geysir
26/07/2007, 9:36 AM
I heard McQuaid in a radio interview the other day saying it's the older guys who do it, the younger ones are clean.
Do the words of Dick Pound from Oct 2005 still resonate today?
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1600610,00.html
"Get something straight. This drug use is not the accidental ingestion of a tainted supplement by an individual athlete. It is planned and deliberate cheating, with complex methods, sophisticated substances and techniques, and the active complicity of doctors, scientists, team officials and riders. There is nothing accidental about it. All this cheating goes on under the supposedly watchful eyes of cycling officials, who loudly proclaim that their sport is drug-free and committed to remaining so. Based on performance, they should not be allowed outdoors without white canes and seeing-eye dogs.
Faced with overwhelming evidence that doping continues and that its own testing programmes are not effective, cycling should outsource them to an independent agency and act effectively to impose meaningful sanctions when positive cases arise. Testing needs to be targeted, with no notice, and from the moment a rider has been notified that he has been selected for a test he must be supervised until the sample is provided. The programme must operate 24 hours a day, to include the time when the doping activities occur.
Is cycling serious about doping? How about a biblical answer: there are none so blind as those that will not see. Until cycling itself acknowledges that there is a problem, it will not be able to find a cure. Ritual denial and organisational omerta are not solutions."
onceahoop
26/07/2007, 10:14 AM
Vino was one of the so-called "men in black" before the Tour started, cyclists training in non-descript kit, not their team training kit, in remote locations to avoid being recognised. Vino claimed it was to avoid hangers on and ametuers trying to ride with him. Yeah right.
As I saw elsewhere this morning, "In Vino no Veritas". Shame, because I think everyone liked his style, just like everyoneone loved the Abdoujaparov from Uzbekistan before him.
Rassmussen missed 4 tests, 2 each for different orgainsations.
Vino joined up with the discredited Michele Ferarri last year. He must have been a marked man then. His ride on Monday after finishing 30 mins down on Saturday was reminiscent of Floyd Lanids' miraculous recovery last year.
NY Hoop
26/07/2007, 10:47 AM
Not true though. The original story has been removed from the link above
Check again.
Another sad day yesterday.
KOH
Dodge
26/07/2007, 10:53 AM
Your link is still there but the article it used as its source is gone (it links to This is London)
Bluebeard
26/07/2007, 11:59 AM
The running of the Tour in this year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Tour_de_France), according to Wikipedia, is the most drug free to date ever...
TheBoss
26/07/2007, 1:10 PM
Yes, but the 2 out of 3 involved have altered the race by winning stages.
More damaging maybe but overall drugs are less...
Bluebeard
26/07/2007, 1:47 PM
Check the link - it is for the 2008 Tour...
Pauro 76
26/07/2007, 2:47 PM
Really disappointed in how its turned out. Was at the London prologue and was proud to be there, fantastic atmosphere and everyone really got into it. It's been my second favourite sport and it just annoys me when people say it's just a sport for cheats.
Bluebeard
26/07/2007, 4:20 PM
I think that all we can do is hope that this is the turning point. It seems that the important players in world cycling who can change things (the teams, the sponsors and the TV companies) are making a few points about the situation in pulling out and expelling their members. There is at least a suggestion that there is punishment, regardless of who you are. There are even talks of Barne Riis being retrospectively stripped of the 1996 Tour.
Closed Account 2
26/07/2007, 4:33 PM
It does look bad, I mean to be honest now everyone is just going to presume whoever wins is on dope too. As a sport now it's lost a lot of credibility, and you wonder if they should just let the cyclists take what ever they want, they can't seem to stop them. It could be like the WWF Wrestling, were everyone knows there is a pretty much open door on steroids..
It does look bad, I mean to be honest now everyone is just going to presume whoever wins is on dope too.
Yeah, yet they think whatever sport they follow is 100% clean, which is the thing that really bugs me about all this media outrage. When it's put to the sports journalists they just totally ignore any other sports to get the digs into cycling - how the fook do these knobs know what goes on in cycling anyway, since they only report on it 3 weeks per year?
Stuttgart88
27/07/2007, 7:58 AM
Anyone see the Jens Voigt interview last night? He was almost relieved & could only see the positives.
The race leader & the most popular rider being thrown out of the race? Great. As said above, cycling seems no longer to be burying its head in the sand. Only idiots would continue to dope in the current environment.
Just on that...
Christian Prudhomme (director of le tour): “Today the general classification is more credible than yesterday. The departure of Rasmussen is the best thing that has happened to us these past few days. The most important thing now is that we give the Tour back to the hundreds of thousands of people who follow the race and love it. Now the Tour continues with riders who love their sport and are prepared to practise it with respect to the rules.”
“When I see riders sitting down to protest against doping at the start of the race, it’s completely different to what happened 10 years ago. It’s the absolute opposite because, at that time, they were protesting against the [doping] controls. That means that we have a part of the path [to a clean sport] has been forged."
Pauro 76
27/07/2007, 2:06 PM
Slightly off topic. Pat McQuaid, Tour de France general manager or something similar. His name has cropped up the last while. Didnt he commentate with Jimmy Magee on RTE's coverage way back when Roche and Kelly were on the Tour?
yeah he used to commentate. He's president of the UCI (the Sepp Blatter of cycling)
geysir
27/07/2007, 2:23 PM
Anyone see the Jens Voigt interview last night? He was almost relieved & could only see the positives.
The race leader & the most popular rider being thrown out of the race? Great. As said above, cycling seems no longer to be burying its head in the sand. Only idiots would continue to dope in the current environment.
Up to now they have been burying their heads and denying that they have been.
"My immediate reaction is, why didn't they do this at the end of June, when they had the same information," Pat McQuaid said. "The team decided to pull him out; that's their prerogative. I can only applaud that. It's a zero-tolerance policy, and it's a lesson for the future."
Note that his expulsion was ordered by the Dutch team sponsor.
I agree that the expulsion is 100% 'positive' for the sport but is has been effected in spite of the efforts of cycling's governing body
Pauro 76
27/07/2007, 2:26 PM
yeah he used to commentate. He's president of the UCI (the Sepp Blatter of cycling)
that's what i thought alright. thanks!
I would guess real danger of Cycling being kicked out of the Olympics as the IOC do not like doping scandals as it scares off the sponsors who pay for their junkets.
Its no surprise that Cycling & Athletics are the big dope sports as they generally rely on power & pace more than any field sport where skill is also a big factor.
It could be argued that Cycling has a strict drug use policy but that has only emerged due to previous scandals where everyone knew riders were cheating but they never tested positive.
The Tour de France still gets loads of media attention but very little of it for the sport itself now.
TheBoss
28/07/2007, 4:56 PM
Looks like Contador has it won now.
Stuttgart88
30/07/2007, 8:35 AM
William Fotheringham wrote an interesting piece in yesterday’s Observer.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0,,2137296,00.html
A few things stood out for me:
The exact circumstances behind the revelation that Rassmussen was in Italy, not Mexico.
That Rassmussen has NEVER been tested out of competition.
Rassmussen is a habitual liar. One lie (only missing one Danish test, not two) too far maybe explained why the Danish Union dropped him mid-tour, not beforehand.
Rassmussen was one of a few riders high up on UCI’s list of doping suspects (ok, this is unsubstantiated)
McQuaid would have been within his rights to invoke a rule removing Rassmussen from the Tour (45 days suspension upon missing a test). McQuaid didn’t think this was appropriate.
The Tour justifiably taking the high moral ground over the UCI & McQuaid.
the 12 th man
30/07/2007, 8:51 AM
I heard a French cycling Journalist this morning saying for next year the Tour organisors are considering one of the options is to have it as a national team event with the teams being made up from pro & amateur cyclists.
McQuaid seems like a spoofer on the anti doping stuff to me, tbh. How can a rider not have had any out of competition tests! Hadn't heard that was the way it panned out on the Rasmussen lying though - that the commentator had said it before there was even a issue.
Going back to national teams would be an interesting development. It'd probably be a very open, uncontrolled race.
Its no surprise that Cycling & Athletics are the big dope sports as they generally rely on power & pace more than any field sport where skill is also a big factor.
I don't agree with this - how many times do we here about people having "great engines", or having to play "the full 80"? Lots of asthmatic pro footballers and rugby players cleared to use salbultamol because of their apparent condition. Very few sports actually test for blood doping - easy to never have postives/ non-negative results when you don't test for them.
Dodge
30/07/2007, 11:12 AM
Depends on the drugs. The likes of EPO would be excellent (you know what I mean) for footballers and that has very little to do with power and pace
National teams is a complete non runner as it would mean limiting the amount of French, Spanish or Italian riders and thats not going to happen
the 12 th man
30/07/2007, 11:45 AM
National teams is a complete non runner as it would mean limiting the amount of French, Spanish or Italian riders and thats not going to happen
In certain sports they allow say France 1,France 2,etc so that might be a way around it.
Dodge
30/07/2007, 11:59 AM
Yeah, true enough. Still can't see it happening as it'd mean sopmeone from the smaller countries couldn't win it as he'd have no support. Britain's top finisher in le tour, (Charlie Wegilius (sp?) has been banned from competiting for Britain or England again when he refused to help their leader (Roger Hammond) in last year's world championship and instead he rode for his team leader, an Italian..)
Stuttgart88
31/07/2007, 8:34 AM
Mayo tests positive for EPO
Another CSC rider after Basso...
Saunier Duval rather than CSC. Sastre and Shleck were the two CSC GC riders?
Another of the old guard, however Contador is still getting linked with Puerto...
WTF!? I knew it was Mayo and not Sastre! I guess I'm just in anti-Denmark buzz this week ;)
He's Spanish so he'll obviously be linked. Shame if he's innocent
He's Spanish so he'll obviously be linked. Shame if he's innocent
That, and the mystery "A.C." labels on the documents. Pretty easy to put it to bed by agreeing to a DNA comparison.
Stuttgart88
31/07/2007, 10:08 AM
Contador is still getting linked with Puerto...Didn't the Tour director say the only link was that a taped conversation between a rider and the doctor in question mentioned Contador, but only in the context of general chat re-performances etc. I think the Tour director, given his determination to out any cheating, would have been less supportive if there was a more real link. Am I missing something?
Well it appears to be one person that keeps giving it legs. Like you say, Le Tour weren't shy in coming forward with concerns about other riders...
Dodge
31/07/2007, 10:38 AM
The "AC" on the Liberty Seguros team was "to be given the same as JJ or nothing at all" (something like that) JJ was Jorg Jaschke who's since admitted "occassional use"
Contador actually wrote an open later to Spanish cycling fans last year saying he was 100% clean and this week he said "I was just in the wrong team at the wrong time" He's apparently been totally cleared by UCI, Spanish Federation and Spanish police
Stuttgart88
01/08/2007, 4:15 PM
Yep, there seems to be a German scientist in possession of documentation implicating Contador, and Le Monde seems to be making allegations too.
In fairness, the French papers appear to try to discredit everyone who finishes above the top frenchmen. :D
Stuttgart88
02/08/2007, 8:36 AM
That's an awful lot of cyclists to discredit!
Bluebeard
14/04/2008, 8:48 AM
Was looking back on old threads and spotted this:
I'm considering doing next year's l'Etape, but that's a different story.
Still planning this Stutts?
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