Irish player most likely to be true World Class [Archive] - Page 2

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billybunter

02/07/2007, 1:13 PM

i think mcshane will prove to be world class. He reminds me of Kevin moran.

youngirish

02/07/2007, 1:37 PM

i think mcshane will prove to be world class. He reminds me of Kevin moran.

I think McShane will prove to be a good Premiership defender in time but I can't see him ever being World Class.

RogerMilla

02/07/2007, 3:25 PM

France in Dublin when he passed the ball to Thierry Henry. How do you like those apples?

you are kidding me arent you ? he didnt even touch the ball for that goal ? or are you talking about a chance that henry missed ? your post above is absolute rubbish.

he has been nothing but excellent for Ireland , far from world calls though so apologies for going off topic , i agree with tuff paddys assesment of world class above.

youngirish

02/07/2007, 4:02 PM

you are kidding me arent you ? he didnt even touch the ball for that goal ? or are you talking about a chance that henry missed ? your post above is absolute rubbish.

I thought you were looking for examples of things he did that could cost us the game and was referring to a chance Henry missed where Dunne passed the ball to him just outside the box as an example of him making mistakes that can cost you the game. Dunne makes mistakes quite often for a central defender irrespective of him being adored by Man City fans (their team is sh*t anyway).

RogerMilla

02/07/2007, 4:35 PM

I thought you were looking for examples of things he did that could cost us the game and was referring to a chance Henry missed where Dunne passed the ball to him just outside the box as an example of him making mistakes that can cost you the game.

fair enough but no I was looking for things that actually cost us the game, agreed that city are sh1t. any odds on sven for first sacking of the season?

RogerMilla

02/07/2007, 4:45 PM

However, Michael Carrick would not (imo), even though he is performs that role for the English club champions and is good enough to be in contention for many international teams.

LOL if he had stayed at spurs would he have made the frame EG? :D

WexDec

02/07/2007, 5:55 PM

easy, Daniel Alves for starters.

Maybe you'd prefer Alves than Finnan but would that make Finnan a complete non-contender for World XI which is the suggested test for being considered world class.

Personally I'm not sure a World XI consideration is a good approach especially when you have to take team balance into account (attacking full backs versus defensive ones etc). In my own personal view of world class I'm not sure I could actually name a right back to to be considered truly world class (Alves not defensive enough) though you'd have to name one to complete a World XI and I would at least shortlist Finnan for that. Would have no problem with Given in goal though by any measure you choose to use.

livehead1

02/07/2007, 6:52 PM

Gary Neville has been the best right back in the world for a number of years, a true world class footballer

youngirish

02/07/2007, 7:16 PM

Gary Neville has been the best right back in the world for a number of years, a true world class footballer

He's muck. Almost as bad as Puyol.

Cymro

02/07/2007, 7:41 PM

He's muck. Almost as bad as Puyol.

If he was Irish you'd never shut up about him. Same as Fletcher, as in the other thread. And yet again we see how utterly biased you are in favour of Irish players when it comes to discussing merits.

I challenge you to argue with Neville's career stats-he is at least on a par with Finnan, even in the autumn of his career. Without a doubt one of the most consistent full backs in the world, much like Finnan.

And also about Puyol-he may not achieve a lot at international level and shine on the world stage but then Spain have never shone on the world stage. Watch him in a Spanish league game and tell me he's 'muck'. Nonsense. You don't play week in week out for one of the best club teams in Europe if you're 'muck'.

Besides which, he's a centre back and can't really be compared to Finnan.

livehead1

02/07/2007, 7:44 PM

He's muck. Almost as bad as Puyol.

I'm afraid you don't get nearly 100 caps for England and be "muck". He's won almost every domestic honour, has never shirked a challenge, showed how good he is going forward through the years, his link up with Beckham was feared world wide and he's now captain of one of the biggest clubs in the world, but sure if hes muck hes muck!

youngirish

03/07/2007, 9:11 AM

And also about Puyol-he may not achieve a lot at international level and shine on the world stage but then Spain have never shone on the world stage. Watch him in a Spanish league game and tell me he's 'muck'. Nonsense. You don't play week in week out for one of the best club teams in Europe if you're 'muck'.

Besides which, he's a centre back and can't really be compared to Finnan.
Puyol can play full back also and has done on numerous occasions in the past. Didn't know that now did you? And the tired old he plays for one of the best teams in Europe so he's great argument is, and never has been, true. Many great teams have average and/or even poor players. Anyway Barcelona are hardly renowned as one of the best teams in Europe because of their water tight defence are they?

As for Gary Neville. Over hyped English drivel. He can't get forward to save his life. Average at best and even then that's only recently in his career. He was total rubbish in his earlier years. Remember John O'Shea (yes he's Irish) plays for United also (and the aforementioned Darren Fletcher). I suppose that means they are two of the best players in Europe also? As for me being biased don't I regularly diss Irish players for not being any use on these forums when others often (nearly always in fact) disagree with me?

As for getting 100 caps for England and still not being any good. Yeah remind me when did they last look like winning anything in International football? I've become a rich man from betting against them winning anything in Ladbrokes. Rich I tell you.

And no I actually think Finnan is good because he is so and not because he's Irish while I think Puyol and Neville are overrated muck because they are so.

Cmyro and Livehead you wouldn't be partial to a few prawn sandwiches in Manchester the odd time now would you?

citizenerased

03/07/2007, 9:22 AM

Gary Neville has been the best right back in the world for a number of years, a true world class footballer

ah ha ha hahahhahaa ha hahahah h...what a load of ******....gary neville world class...!!

Dr. Ogba

03/07/2007, 9:27 AM

As for Gary Neville. Over hyped English drivel. He can't get forward to save his life. Average at best and even then so that's only recently in his career.

Ah would ye stop....I would be the first to say that there's plenty of over-hyped English players around. Sure Neville would only have to look over his left shoulder to see one of the biggest culprits (Ferdinand) but to say that he's over hyped is ridiculuous. He pretty much ticks every box for what a full back should have...Despite what you say he regularly gets forward,is an excellent crosser of the ball and is easily as solid defensively as Finnan. Top this off with the fact that he is an excellent header of the ball and a good organiser and you have one of the best full backs in the world.

But sure what does that fool Ferguson know anyway? :rolleyes:

youngirish

03/07/2007, 9:29 AM

But sure what does that fool Ferguson know anyway? :rolleyes:
Wasn't he the man who bought Veron for 28 million? Taibi for 4.5 million? Park Ji Sung for 6? I could go on but you get he point (Ferdinand 33 mill, Carrick 18 mill, Forlan 8 mill etc etc etc).

He also plays JOS regularly also so perhaps we should build the Ireland team around him what? Another tired old argument that holds no water. The united supporters are all coming out of hiding to defend their captain.

Dr. Ogba

03/07/2007, 9:38 AM

Wasn't he the man who bought Veron for 28 million? Taibi for 4.5 million? Park Ji Sung for 6? I could go on but you get he point (Ferdinand 33 mill, Carrick 18 mill, Forlan 8 mill etc etc etc).

He also plays JOS regularly also so perhaps we should build the Ireland team around him what? Another tired old argument that holds no water. The united supporters are all coming out of hiding to defend their captain.

So you're saying Ferguson knows nothing then? you could easily pick apart the transfer dealings of every top manager in the world and find some donkeys bought....Wenger and Mourinho have their fare share...And please don't trot out JOS for every argument, like him or not he is a very handy utility man but will never (EVER!) have a team built around him...

I'm afraid it's your argument that holds absolutely no water....and I've absolutely no association with United whatsoever mate...

Edit: also I noticed that you ignored my main argument....no comeback for that then?

eirebhoy

03/07/2007, 9:49 AM

Puyol is very overrated imo but Neville is on par with Finnan at least. I don't think I've ever seen a winger embarras him and he's at least as good as Finnan going forward imo.

youngirish

03/07/2007, 10:31 AM

Edit: also I noticed that you ignored my main argument....no comeback for that then?
I didn't ignore it. I thought I had already answered earlier by stating Neville is muck so I wouldn't agree with the majority of the points you label against him. He's average defensively but rubbish at everything else (including crossing and going forward).

Dr. Ogba

03/07/2007, 10:58 AM

I didn't ignore it. I thought I had already answered earlier by stating Neville is muck so I wouldn't agree with the majority of the points you label against him. He's average defensively but rubbish at everything else (including crossing and going forward).

Well that's me convinced!!

EalingGreen

03/07/2007, 11:55 AM

LOL if he [Carrick] had stayed at spurs would he have made the frame EG? :D

No. In fact, realistically, his career was "fast-forwarded" by joining MU. That said, Spurs are making decent, if gradual, progress (imo)

Anyhow, as regards Finnan vs Neville: I don't follow MU or L'pool, but I have to say Neville has been consistently excellent over many seasons, including the last. As such, he should be a contender for a World XI, but not Finnan (imo)

Interesting to see what the PFA thought (and they are better placed than any of us to judge):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6582201.stm

P.S. As for McShane in the Championship: good prospect, could do very well in the Prem at Sunderland, but not even the best young centre back at WBA, if last season was anything to go by.

eirebhoy

03/07/2007, 12:04 PM

Interesting to see what the PFA thought (and they are better placed than any of us to judge):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6582201.stm

Finnan has been in that team once or twice before. I'd have been suprised if he was in it last season though as he didn't do anything spectacular.

P.S. As for McShane in the Championship: good prospect, could do very well in the Prem at Sunderland, but not even the best young centre back at WBA, if last season was anything to go by.
For me McShane is Ireland's best prospect by far. The one player I really believe can be world class.

shakermaker1982

03/07/2007, 12:05 PM

Neville is a solid right back - nothing more and nothing less. Decent in the air, can tackle and go forward when required but I wouldn't classify him as a world class player. That 'phrase' is banded about too much nowadays in football if you ask me, especially when it comes to English players. Pre WC06 according to Andy Gray and Hansen = England had 8/9 truly world class players who you wouldn't swap for anybody else. I was ****ing myself at the time when I heard them come out with that beauty.

The one true player we have in our team who I'd classify as world class/top draw is Shay Given. I think he could go to any team in the world and do a brilliant job.

gustavo

03/07/2007, 12:09 PM

Thing is though , the world class atributes of a right back are just that , being solid if unspectacular , he is at least the equal of Denis Irwin who is rightly lauded here for just those qualities.

GavinZac

03/07/2007, 12:37 PM

For me McShane is Ireland's best prospect by far. The one player I really believe can be world class.
on what basis? he was a shambles in san marino

tetsujin1979

03/07/2007, 12:38 PM

on what basis? he was a shambles in san marino
So on the basis of one game he's going to be a failure?

GavinZac

03/07/2007, 12:43 PM

So on the basis of one game he's going to be a failure?

no, which is why I asked for some basis as to him being "world class". san marino was my first impression of him and not a very good one at that. given eirebhoys confidence in him im interested in finding out what else he's done.

eirebhoy

03/07/2007, 1:13 PM

no, which is why I asked for some basis as to him being "world class". san marino was my first impression of him and not a very good one at that. given eirebhoys confidence in him im interested in finding out what else he's done.
Just out of interest where were you for the Czech game? By "shambles in san marino" I presume you mean the mix up for the goal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPq2kbMy_sw

^^
He looked to have the pace to catch the long ball. Henderson came storming out and there was nothing McShane could do but jump out of the way.

Anyway, from what we saw against the Czechs McShane already has the skills to marshal a defense. He's only 21 and already he can lead the defense. That would usually take years of experience. Richard Dunne has only recently started taking up the responsibility. Andy O'Brien still needs someone beside him to lead him. Phil Babb always did. Bobo Balde could look top class beside a great organiser but absolutely terrible without one, he's 31.

McShane is 21 and he would have no problem ordering someone like Balde about. I also really believe he'd get the best out of Balde (I'm using Balde as an example because of his age). McShane just has a great football brain. He's small but how many headers did Koller win against him? His timing was superb. It'd be interesting to see how he'd do against a fast, tricky player but many would say Vidic is top class and he had a nightmare of a game against Craig Bellamy.

Cymro

03/07/2007, 1:59 PM

Puyol can play full back also and has done on numerous occasions in the past. Didn't know that now did you? And the tired old he plays for one of the best teams in Europe so he's great argument is, and never has been, true. Many great teams have average and/or even poor players. Anyway Barcelona are hardly renowned as one of the best teams in Europe because of their water tight defence are they?

Actually, I did know that, but seeing as how centre-back is where he's played the best part of the last 2 seasons for Barca, I saw fit to describe him as a centre rather than full.

True some great teams do have average players but they are generally offloaded swiftly. That isn't the case with Puyol who is regarded as one of Barca's best players.

As for Gary Neville. Over hyped English drivel. He can't get forward to save his life. Average at best and even then that's only recently in his career. He was total rubbish in his earlier years. Remember John O'Shea (yes he's Irish) plays for United also (and the aforementioned Darren Fletcher). I suppose that means they are two of the best players in Europe also? As for me being biased don't I regularly diss Irish players for not being any use on these forums when others often (nearly always in fact) disagree with me?

I just couldn't disagree more on Neville. He gets forward just as often as Finnan and is always solid in defence. He is usually in the first 2-3 names on the England team sheet because of his consistency in both attack and defence. Look on any Premiership player rating engine and he will usually be amongst the top 30 or so names on the list. He has formed the backbone of one of the most succesful clubs in the world for the past decade.

Unlike a lot of English players, I don't think he's overrated.

The only real 'dissing' of an Irish player you've done is saying that Richard Dunne is average. And for all I know that could have been to cover up that you might rave about Puyol were he Irish, as one poster said Irish fans in general rave about Dunne. Could have.

Regardless of whether you're biased or not, which is possibly untrue, I think you're wrong on this particular issue, so let's stick to debating this and not go the same way as the last debate we had.

As for getting 100 caps for England and still not being any good. Yeah remind me when did they last look like winning anything in International football? I've become a rich man from betting against them winning anything in Ladbrokes. Rich I tell you.

England have had teams capable of winning in the last three major tournaments. You could ask yourself did Greece or Denmark ever look like winning the Euros? No, would be the answer.

Frankly, plenty of great players don't achieve on the international stage. Players like George Best and Ryan Giggs never so much as qualified for a tournament yet there can be no argument that at their peaks they were truly world class players. Now just to get one thing straight before you accuse me-I'm not comparing Gary Neville to Giggs and Best, merely showing how flawed your argument is.

And no I actually think Finnan is good because he is so and not because he's Irish while I think Puyol and Neville are overrated muck because they are so.

That's nice. Care to back up those opinions with some evidence?

Cymro and Livehead you wouldn't be partial to a few prawn sandwiches in Manchester the odd time now would you?

I support Swansea City. I have never supported anyone but Swansea City. How much clearer can I make it?

I do watch a lot of Premiership/European football when Swansea aren't playing, however. So forgive me if I comment on players in those leagues.

Pablo

03/07/2007, 2:20 PM

I support Swansea City. I have never supported anyone but Swansea City. How much clearer can I make it?

And good on You for that. Most of the people on this forum dont support their own so your wasting your time!

geysir

03/07/2007, 3:43 PM

The only Irish player ever to make it onto the the European Team of the Year (Onze Mondial) was Liam Brady in 1980. Liam was our only player on the 100 European players of the century, about 70th.
On another ranking, Liam was in the top 10, three years in a row, Keane only showed up there one year near the bottom of the frame.
Uefa put Duff on their team of the year 2003.
Since the mid '70's, Brady has clearly been our most recognized player on a consistant level at least in the eyes of Europe.

McShane has done the first step, he has made the best international debut since Brady.

youngirish

03/07/2007, 4:13 PM

Paul Butler could have been World Class but he let all the talent he had go to his head. What a waste.

livehead1

03/07/2007, 4:39 PM

youngirish

03/07/2007, 5:08 PM

your last comment sums you up. i honestly feel you know very little about real football ability.

You would be wrong.

As for informing you when the last time Gary Neville had a mare, instead you tell me the last game you seen him play where he was brilliant (which he should be on a regular basis if you are seriously stating that he is world class). I struggle to name a single game where he was anything other than average.

He never scores any goals, rarely sets any up, can't shoot or pass, is fairly slow. Overall, yeah muck would be the word that best describes him. Not as bad as Puyol mind.

Cymro

03/07/2007, 5:14 PM

You would be wrong.

As for informing you when the last time Gary Neville had a mare instead you tell me the last game you seen him play where he was brilliant (which he should be on a regular basis if you are seriously stating that he is world class). I struggle to name a single game where he was anything other than average.

He never scores any goals, seldom sets any up (if ever), can't shoot or pass, is fairly slow. Overall, yeah muck would be the word that best describes him. Not as made as Puyol mind.

And the last time Finnan was brilliant?

I refer you to gustavo's comment where he sums up the role of a world class full back:

Thing is though , the world class atributes of a right back are just that , being solid if unspectacular , he is at least the equal of Denis Irwin who is rightly lauded here for just those qualities.

youngirish

03/07/2007, 5:22 PM

Finnan was brilliant in nearly every game throughout the Champions League campaign.

Here compare the two sets of opta stats for the players and admit yous are wrong and we can move on. Also consider Finnan was playing in a team that scored nearly 30 goals less than united and these figures don't take into account the Champions League games where Finnan had a way better tournament than Neville.

http://home.skysports.com/optastats.aspx?clid=14&hlid=OPTA_Liverpool&cpid=8

http://home.skysports.com/optastats.aspx?clid=1&hlid=OPTA_Manchester_United&cpid=8

Cymro

03/07/2007, 5:43 PM

Finnan was brilliant in nearly every game throughout the Champions League campaign.

As were the whole Liverpool team, more or less.

Here compare the two sets of opta stats for the players and admit yous are wrong and we can move on. Also consider Finnan was playing in a team that scored nearly 30 goals less than united and these figures don't take into account the Champions League games where Finnan had a way better tournament than Neville.

Well going on those stats you could say Finnan had the better season but there are two things to point out here.

Firstly, for someone who according to you never sets up chances, Neville certainly got a lot of crosses in at 32.2% success rate the best of anyone at Man United.

Also, those stats don't compare their individual records, only the whole team's record with individual club rankings. Therefore while Finnan is in the top 5 at Liverpool in 3 catergories compared to Neville's 1, it doesn't show the whole picture.

livehead1

05/07/2007, 11:03 PM

youngirish

06/07/2007, 9:20 AM

Youngirish heres one for you...duff's views on the toughest player he has played against...you guessed it, its Gary Neville quote "hes a top player"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LlevQ85h3A
but you probably play sunday league football so you would be in a better position to comment

Ha ha. Duff is a well known United fan like yourself and Cymro. He probably meant toughest as in he had to keep his eye on him for the whole 90 minutes and he's an ugly bunched b*stard.

Stuttgart88

06/07/2007, 11:16 AM

I think both Neville and Finnan are among the best right backs in the world.

Cymro

06/07/2007, 2:25 PM

Ha ha. Duff is a well known United fan like yourself and Cymro. He probably meant toughest as in he had to keep his eye on him for the whole 90 minutes and he's an ugly bunched b*stard.

Sure. I must support Man United because I don't think Gary Neville is sh*t. :rolleyes:

I'd agree with Stuttgart.

eirebhoy

06/07/2007, 9:25 PM

Youngirish heres one for you...duff's views on the toughest player he has played against...
As did McGeady. Although obviously there isn't a lot of competition for that title when it comes to McGeady.

youngirish

06/07/2007, 9:33 PM

As did McGeady. Although obviously there isn't a lot of competition for that title when it comes to McGeady.

Eirebhoy do you ever take time off? I'm just back in the office after a full day on the razz. I'm now off again to see if I can find some fit English muffin though bunched will do aswell. Should be sacked by Monday.

eirebhoy

06/07/2007, 10:07 PM

Eirebhoy do you ever take time off?
Time off? You make it sound like posting on the internet is a chore. :D I'm just finished a 12 hour shift and getting my fix before I got to bed.

Kivlehan

06/07/2007, 10:57 PM

DmanDmythDledge

06/07/2007, 11:34 PM

Roy Keane was the only Irish player on Pele's list of the greatest footballers (not counting George Best since he's NI).
In fairness that list means nothing. There were some players that were nowhere near world class on that list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:FIFA_100).

Keane was still world class though.

Bluebeard

09/07/2007, 10:23 AM

In fairness that list means nothing. There were some players that were nowhere near world class on that list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:FIFA_100).

In my opinion, any list that fails to include Liam Brady is a completely bankrupt list. I suspect that the non-Cork part of Ireland has been ridden rock solid.

And the tokenism of having a couple of women on it too, so that it seems to be "truly inclusive" or whatever spin line they like - two American women, despite the fact that Scandinavia have dominated the women's game, particularly prior to the first world cup. Germany are a major force, and China, this year's hosts, have been successful too.

And the only non-American woman in the FIFA 100? Lilian Thuram:eek:

bellavistaman

09/07/2007, 1:45 PM

In my opinion, any list that fails to include Liam Brady is a completely bankrupt list. I suspect that the non-Cork part of Ireland has been ridden rock solid.
And the tokenism of having a couple of women on it too, so that it seems to be "truly inclusive" or whatever spin line they like - two American women, despite the fact that Scandinavia have dominated the women's game, particularly prior to the first world cup. Germany are a major force, and China, this year's hosts, have been successful too.

And the only non-American woman in the FIFA 100? Lilian Thuram:eek:

Oh ya sure pele loves cork!:eek:

geysir

10/07/2007, 11:14 AM

I just had a cursory look at that FIFA list. Two of Brady's contempories are included, Ceulemans and Dalgleish. Brady polled better than both of them in the European Footballer of the Year (Ballon d'Or). Ceulemans in particular, only registered on the list two years in a row at 5th and 21st.
Tets provided this link once before (at least)
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy.html

Brady
1979 7th
1980 8th
1981 9th
1983 23rd

Other honourable mentions
1972 Giles 18th
1975 Givens 27th
1977 Heighway 10th
1980 O'Leary 22nd
1981 Stapleton 21st
1989 Bonner 17th
1991 McGrath 13th
1990 McGrath 12th
1993 McGrath 26th
1999 Keane 6th
2000 Keane 27th

We haven't anything near that standard of recognition playing for us now. Even Given would be down the list a bit for goalkeepers, maybe if he had saved two of those penalties against Spain, who knows.
I don't know why Keane only seriously registered for one year, Man U had plenty of TV exposure.
And yes Don Givens? I think he got the Soviet's vote.

danonion

14/07/2007, 1:44 AM

I know I'll get attacked for this but I can't see McShane being other than an average premiersihp fullback or central defender. He's small and rash and even though he has a heart the size of a bucket I just can't see him becoming much more than another Andy O'Brien or the like.

eirebhoy

14/07/2007, 10:58 AM

He's small and rash
So is Cannavaro. There's no comparison with O'Brien imo. McShane's is already years ahead of O'Brien in terms of reading the game.