Derek Dougan RIP

[lopez]

Great bloke. Sad about his death. I met him a couple of times during the seventies, and found him a remarkable, intelligent man. Also written a couple of excellent books in the seventies. May he rest in peace!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/wolverhampton_wanderers/6234726.stm

[Steve Bruce]

R I P:(

[NY Hoop]

Sad news alright and always rose above the sectarianism. Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career.

KOH

[Lionel Ritchie]

Sad news alright and always rose above the sectarianism. Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career.

KOH

Not entitely true NY ...commonly held belief. But it doesn't sit well with the facts.

R.I.P. and condolences to the doogs family

[NY Hoop]

Is that so? From the man himself:

14/02/2004

Emmet Malone talks to some of those involved in the game against the World champions in 1973

These days it may take about half a million euro or a very good relationship with the boys at Nike to get Brazil to pay a visit but in 1972, it seems, the patience to hang around Joao Havelange's office with an appetite for a spot of politicking could be enough to land the World Champions on your doorstep.

In June that year Louis Kilcoyne proved the point. In town with a team from the Republic of Ireland for a trip involving four matches he had organised, the Irishman camped out for half a day in the office of the Brazilian with the aim of getting a meeting. By close of business he'd got it.

Kilcoyne knew the Brazilians, who would go to the World Cup finals in West Germany in 1974 as champions, were coming to Europe in the summer of 1973 to test themselves in a series of friendlies. He proposed a match for charity and his offer reportedly included the FAI vote in the election for FIFA when Stanley Rous departed. It doesn't seem to have taken long for the pair to strike a deal.

The squad Brazilian coach Mario Zagala brought to Dublin for the game 13 months later was, for the time, as impressive as the one named by Carlos Alberto Parreira for next Wednesday's game.

Pele had retired in the wake of the team's 4-1 triumph over Italy in Mexico City and there were a couple of injuries but the likes of Rivelino, Jairzinho and Wilson Piazza, and a couple of the team's emerging stars, Paulo Cesar and Marco Antonio, were amongst the eventual starting line up.

Kilcoyne had promised they would face a team drawn from the whole of the island and had delegated the task of assembling it to his brother-in-law, John Giles, who enlisted the help of Northern Ireland skipper Derek Dougan.

Though the match was at the start of July and a number of the players had to train through their holidays to maintain match fitness (Giles had followed a tough season at Leeds with a couple of weeks in Courtown, where he ran on the beach each day to stay in shape) neither man experienced difficulty coming up with his share of the required numbers.

"I was in a good position to get people at the time because I was chairman of the PFA," recalls Dougan, "but the reality is that everybody wanted to be involved because of the opposition.

"I'd worked for ITV through the whole of the 1970 World Cup finals and this was definitely the best side I'd ever seen. I mean people talk about Hungary with Puskas but the reality is that they weren't even in the same league. So of course the players were interested to take part and for the supporters it was this great Brazilian side against a team drawn from the whole of Ireland, which hadn't happened in maybe 20 years. So it was a spectacle, like Frank Sinatra, Elvis or Barbara Streisand coming to town. It was something you desperately wanted to see."

For the Brazilians, the game marked the end of a nine-match European tour on which, up until then, they had won five, drawn once and lost twice.

Victory in Dublin would bring a $500 win bonus (they got nothing for a draw or defeat, while the Irish were on a match fee of "around £100") but a simmering feud with the travelling press over allegations that the players had "lived in cabarets" during the preceding weeks also provided motivation.

Whatever the mood amongst the visitors, Bryan Hamilton admits to having been a little awed by them. "It was like taking on the Harlem Globetrotters," he says. "Just a fantastic thing to be involved with as a player and at the end I was thrilled to come away from the game with Rivelino's shirt."

Mick Martin, then recently signed by Manchester United, shared the enthusiasm of the Northerners even if the political dimension of the occasion meant little to him. "I was a young boy, probably the youngest in the team and, to be honest, while I knew it was going to be a mixed team I don't think the significance of that was excessively important to me really," he says.

An attempt to stage a reunion for the Irish team last year didn't quite come off but a few will probably be back in Lansdowne Road next Wednesday and Martin, who will be in Dublin for the wedding on Monday of his daughter Siobhán, is hoping to get to the match.

"It would be great to see it because the original game was one of the highlights of my career. It was a huge occasion, we were playing the World Champions, although from a young boy's perspective the fact that it was an Ireland team was mainly important because you were in it. I mean it was seen as a strong selection and so it was sort of flattering to be asked to be a part of it."

The IFA reacted coolly to the idea, with the association's president, Harry Cavan, making attempts to prevent it being played. Ultimately, he did succeed in having its international nature toned down and it ended up being billed as a game between the World Champions and a Shamrock Rovers XI. The association had little choice in letting other players involve themselves in the game but Dougan claims its disapproval of his role in helping to organise things cost him what remained of his international career.

"After it, I probably had a couple of my best years at Wolves but I never played for Northern Ireland again. I finished up with 43 appearances, seven short of my second gold watch. After 15 years I had no complaints but," he laughs, "you lot down south owe me a watch."

The politics of the IFA, he adds, always meant the organisation would fiercely oppose any attempt to build on an occasion. Others, including the team's manager, Liam Tuohy, feel opposition would have come from officials at both associations who feared the implications of a merger.

"Well, you've got two chairmen, and one of them is going to lose his job for a start, so it always would have been difficult but I don't think there's any doubt that the players would have been in favour of it."

Tuohy, like his players, takes some pride from the performance at Lansdowne Road, where the team may have lost in front of 34,000 supporters but emerged from the 4-3 defeat with credit.

He remembers, he says, little enough about July 3rd, the day of the game itself, only that the squad, which stayed at the Montrose Hotel, had "a bit of a loosener", up at UCD early on. Inside the ground some care was taken to avoid further antagonising the IFA and so only the Brazilian flag was flown and its anthem played. Strangely, though, the crowd were still treated to A Nation Once Again by the St Patrick's Brass and Reed Band towards the end of the pre-match build-up.

"The game itself was great," recalls Tuohy. "They played their usual dazzling brand of football. There was more to them than that. They had great balance in the side and all worked very hard - but we played very well against them."

After an hour the score was 4-1 with Paulo Cesar, Martin, Jairzinho, Paulo Cesar again and finally Valdomiro scoring the goals. There was the potential for things to become embarrassing but the flow of the game shifted considerably during the closing half an hour with Dougan and Terry Conroy getting two goals back, the Irish going close another couple of times and Pat Jennings saving a last-minute penalty that would have given Paulo Cesar his hat-trick.

Afterwards, both sides headed to the Gresham Hotel for a crowded reception. By then the Brazilians had earned their $500, the Irish their place in the history books.

How They Lined Out

Shamrock Rovers XI: Pat Jennings (Tottenham), Tommy Craig (Newcastle Utd), Paddy Mulligan (Crystal Palace), Alan Hunter (Ipswich), Tommy Carroll (Birmingham City), John Giles (Leeds Utd), Mick Martin (Manchester Utd), Martin O'Neill (Nottingham Forest), Terry Conroy (Stoke City), Derek Dougan (Wolves), Don Givens (QPR). Subs: Liam O'Kane (Nottingham Forest) and Bryan Hamilton (Ipswich) for Carroll and Givens (66 mins); Miah Dennehy (Nottingham Forest) for Conroy (88 mins).

Brazil: Leao, Ze Maria, Luiz Pereira, Piazza, Marco Antonio, Paulo Cesar, Clodoaldo, Rivelino, Valdomiro, Jairzinho, Dirceu.


KOH

[Steve Bruce]

He Hardly states he wasn't picked because he was a Catholic.

We have had many many many catholics in our Northern Ireland team and still do. It has always been a non-issue. If the players play their hearts out for us, we appreciate them for it, no matter what their background might be.

Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill to name but two, are legends and will always be appreciated by our support and association.

[NY Hoop]

Not what was said. Did you even read the article? His willingness for the fixture to go ahead cost him his international career.

KOH

[Lionel Ritchie]

He hadn't been in an NI squad for half a dozen games BEFORE the Brazil match. He was 35.

Now -I don't like the petty tack Harry Cavan took in relation to this game but it's a fact that Terry Neill had stopped picking Dougan for NI some time before it ever happened.

[EalingGreen]

Sad news alright and always rose above the sectarianism. Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career.

KOH

As others have pointed out, the facts simply don't bear this out.

Before Dalymount, Dougan had been dropped for every one of NI's previous five games. Of these, they had won three, drawn one and lost just one. In the process, the team scored eight goals.

Dougan, a centre forward, had however played in the previous five NI games prior to that. In those games, they had won one (1-0), drawn one (0-0) and lost three. During these five games, they scored just once - a goal-mouth scramble by their centre-half at a corner.

In fact, for all his exploits in club football, Dougan scored just four times in his last 33 games for NI - two versus Cyprus, one v Israel and one v Turkey, all of whom were "minnows" of the international scene in those days. Indeed, Dougan failed to score completely in his last 10 games for NI.

Not only that, but Dougan was 35 years and six months old at the time of the Brazil game. In the games just prior to, and after, the Brazil game, he was replaced in the NI team by Sammy Morgan, a young centre forward prospect at Aston Villa and/or Trevor Anderson - A Manchester United youngster billed (inevitably) as "the next George Best". Between them, they scored four of NI's eight goals during the period Dougan was dropped and although neither player went on to fulfil his early potential, they both had a reasonable career in the game, with Morgan acquiring 18 caps and Anderson 22 caps.

Additionally, Dougan was one of seven NI players who appeared in that game - Jennings, Craig, O'Kane, Hamilton, Hunter and O'Neill were the others. Every one of them was picked for NI during their following matches, with three of them going on to captain their country and one of them (Hamilton) becoming Manager. During this period Harry Cavan, the man blamed by Dougan for being "dropped", continued to be IFA President.

[Steve Bruce]

Not what was said. Did you even read the article? His willingness for the fixture to go ahead cost him his international career.

KOH

You where calling the IFA Bigots, what else am I supposed to think with that remark?

[NY Hoop]

The game was in Lansdowne. And while you might be able to predict the future it was in Cavan's interest that there wouldnt be a united Ireland team at the time. Dougan was still banging in the goals for Wolves during this time.

The fact that Cavan didnt want the game to be played at all shows him in his true light.


KOH

[Lionel Ritchie]

The game was in Lansdowne. And while you might be able to predict the future it was in Cavan's interest that there wouldnt be a united Ireland team at the time. Dougan was still banging in the goals for Wolves during this time.

The fact that Cavan didnt want the game to be played at all shows him in his true light.


KOH

So you concede and acknowledge that, regardless of his form at Wolves, he hadn't been playing for NI for some time before the Brazil game?

[EalingGreen]

Not what was said. Did you even read the article? His willingness for the fixture to go ahead cost him his international career.
KOH

I have already stated in another post (#9) why it seems highly unlikely that the Brazil game "cost him his international career" (it was already over)

However, I have also read the article (written 31 years after the event, btw) and it is littered with mistakes which would have been obvious to anyone with a reaonable knowledge of Irish international football:

1. Tommy Craig was a red haired Scottish midfielder who played for Newcastle for a period, whereas the right back in this game was Dave Craig - a dark haired full back who played over four hundred times for Newcastle (his only League club) during a 15 year career. He also played 25 times for NI, a figure which undoubtedly have been more had it not been for injury and the emergence of Pat Rice at full back.

2. Hunter's first name is spelled "Allan".

3. Derek Dougan was not "skipper" of NI at the time - he wasn't even in the team. In fact, although I can't find the exact record, he can only have been captain for a handful of his 43 caps, since throughout his entire NI career, the captain was first Danny Blanchflower (1949-62, 56 caps), then Terry Neill (1961-73, 59 caps). Not only that, but in their absence from the team, the role normally fell to Dave Clements or Bryan Hamilton. (All four went on to manage NI, btw).

4. Mick Martin was not the youngest player in the Rovers team - Martin O'Neill is nearly a year younger.

5. "After it, I probably had a couple of my best years at Wolves..." It's possible, I suppose. Again, however, the facts do not bear this out. In the season following (1973-74), Dougan started 30 League games (of 42), scoring 10 times, which is reasonable enough for a 36 year old, but hardly exceptional compared e.g. with season 1971-72, cited by Wolves fans in all the Obituaries as his peak, when they got to the UEFA Cup Final and he was top scorer.
And in season 1974-75, Dougan started just 3 League games, plus 3 as substitute, scoring once.
After this, he then dropped out of League football entirely, aged 37, to become player-manager at Kettering Town.


There is, however, one interesting nugget in that article which is often conveniently overlooked. Namely, whilst everyone slates the IFA for opposing the game, few people point to Liam Tuouy's comment that the FAI were also somewhat hostile.

Still, that wouldn't quite fit in with the stereotype of the IFA as being the big, bad bigots in this whole affair...:eek:

[NY Hoop]

Calm down there old man. My original post was replying to steve bruce. Apologies if I dont know the dates of births of some players that played in the 70s:eek:


KOH

[EalingGreen]

The game was in Lansdowne. And while you might be able to predict the future it was in Cavan's interest that there wouldnt be a united Ireland team at the time. Dougan was still banging in the goals for Wolves during this time.

The fact that Cavan didnt want the game to be played at all shows him in his true light.
KOH

Quite correct, the game was at Lansdowne, not Dalymount (my mistake). However, as I pointed out in post #13, Dougan was hardly "banging in the goals" for Wolves at the time.

And what light does the following comment show the FAI in:
"Others, including the team's manager, Liam Tuohy, feel opposition would have come from officials at both associations who feared the implications of a merger"

The facts are simple:
1. Whatever people in the IFA felt about his involvement in this game, Dougan's international career was NOT ended due to this, since he had already ceased to be a member of the international team and was in his mid-30's and at the fag-end of his club career.
2. The IFA were opposed to this game, since they felt that it was a threat to their independence as a separate Association. The FAI were almost certainly similarly opposed. This is entirely natural, since turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
3. Neither you nor anyone else has produced the slightest evidence to support your claims, especially as regards the so-called "sectarian" element. By contrast, I and others have produced hard facts to refute them.

[NY Hoop]

The facts are simple:
1. Whatever people in the IFA felt about his involvement in this game, Dougan's international career was NOT ended due to this, since he had already ceased to be a member of the international team and was in his mid-30's and at the fag-end of his club career.
2. The IFA were opposed to this game, since they felt that it was a threat to their independence as a separate Association. The FAI were almost certainly similarly opposed. This is entirely natural, since turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
3. Neither you nor anyone else has produced the slightest evidence to support your claims, especially as regards the so-called "sectarian" element. By contrast, I and others have produced hard facts to refute them.

The underlined is not a fact. The fact that the IFA were opposed to this game had nothing with a threat to their independence. Do you honestly believe that the two associations would become one the next day or even the next decade the way things were?

Then again maybe you could cos you can see the future.

KOH

[OneRedArmy]

In danger of drawing this off-topic but anyone who attempts to defend Harry Cavan as an individual, particularly his actions in relation to Derry City or Dougan, deserves zero respect.

You can complain all you want but Dougan consistently stated he was warned he would never play again for Norn Ireland if he organised the game and he never did play again. In that respect his age or form was irrelevant, its the threat that counts.

As for quoting the Catholics who played in the game and went on to play for NI, again irrelevant as Dougan was targeted as one of the organisers of the game.

Incidentally, the recent book on Fifa corruption (Foul) also paints a less than honorable picture of Mr. Cavan and how he arrived at his substantial wealth.

It is highly likely that it was the fear of a united Irish football association and the resulting loss of the (alleged) backhanders that he received that drove Cavan to protect his fiefdom at the expense of persecution Dougan and Derry City (both ultimately related to All Ireland football issues). But is this any better than being a plain bigot?!

[EalingGreen]

Calm down there old man. My original post was replying to steve bruce. Apologies if I dont know the dates of births of some players that played in the 70s:eek:
KOH

I'll calm down when you stop making ignorant, false and prejudiced allegations about my team.

And if you don't know the dates of birth of 1970's players that's OK, since I don't carry that sort of information around in my head either. However, were I a journalist like Mr. Malone, being paid to write for a National newspaper, I'd hope, following a quick Google, at least to get the basic facts right.

Anyhow, whatever the minor details, have you any comments on the posts which clearly demonstrate that Dougan's international career was NOT ended
by his involvement in this Brazil game, or that the IFA was not the only Association with concerns about the game?

Or do you just prefer to ignore these, since it doesn't fit with your prejudices?

[NY Hoop]

I'll calm down when you stop making ignorant, false and prejudiced allegations about my team.

And if you don't know the dates of birth of 1970's players that's OK, since I don't carry that sort of information around in my head either. However, were I a journalist like Mr. Malone, being paid to write for a National newspaper, I'd hope, following a quick Google, at least to get the basic facts right.

Anyhow, whatever the minor details, have you any comments on the posts which clearly demonstrate that Dougan's international career was NOT ended
by his involvement in this Brazil game, or that the IFA was not the only Association with concerns about the game?

Or do you just prefer to ignore these, since it doesn't fit with your prejudices?

"In my opinion" is a saying you would want to get familiar with. Read ORA's summary.

Another tip for the future: if you dont agree with someone you dont have to call them ignorant. Unless you want to go back to ourweecountry.bigot.uk.

KOH

[EalingGreen]

The underlined is not a fact. The fact that the IFA were opposed to this game had nothing with a threat to their independence. Do you honestly believe that the two associations would become one the next day or even the next decade the way things were?

Then again maybe you could cos you can see the future.

KOH

What you emboldened (not underlined) was not cited by me as a "fact". However, Liam Tuohy would be in a position to venture an opinion, and the FAI would have an obvious motive for opposing a merger, so that is why I believe that it is "almost certainly" correct.

As for this game in itself leading to the end of the IFA's independence, nowhere did I say that it would happen "the next day or even the next decade".

However, it is hardly surprising that they and the FAI should be suspicious of any development which might begin to call their separate identities into question, especially at a time when political tensions were at boiling point in Northern Ireland.

All of which comes from my ability to see into the past, not the future.

Speaking of which, are you going to withdraw your allegation that the Brazil game "cost" Dougan his international career, or the notion that he was still good enough to go on "banging them in" for Wolves in the following seasons?

Or do you prefer to wriggle and obfuscate?

[NY Hoop]

I'll believe what came from the man's mouth than some nutter on an internet forum years later.

"Withdraw my allegation"? Are you for real?

Derek Dougan RIP


KOH

[OneRedArmy]

Speaking of which, are you going to withdraw your allegation that the Brazil game "cost" Dougan his international career, or the notion that he was still good enough to go on "banging them in" for Wolves in the following seasons?

Or do you prefer to wriggle and obfuscate?Dougan stated he was told it would cost him his career.

He never played again.

Either Dougan's a liar, or it played a significant part in the ending of his career.

I know who I believe.

Hint: its not Harry Cavan.......

[Steve Bruce]

Dougan stated he was told it would cost him his career.

He never played again.

Either Dougan's a liar, or it played a significant part in the ending of his career.

I know who I believe.

Hint: its not Harry Cavan.......

His career was already finished:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

"In my opinion" is a saying you would want to get familiar with. Read ORA's summary.

Another tip for the future: if you dont agree with someone you dont have to call them ignorant. Unless you want to go back to ourweecountry.bigot.uk.

KOH

You originally posted the following:
"Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career."

It is not my "opinion" that his international career was already over by then, rather it is a fact, as I demonstrated by a simple appraisal of his international and club career.

As for your second point, I disagree with others on this Board from time to time, without resorting to such epithets. However, you made an allegation of fact (not opinion), which no-one with a knowledge of the true situation would have made. Therefore, unless you are posting from some malicious motive, I can only assume you are ignorant of the facts.

And since this involves a subject dear to my heart, I make no apologies for pointing this out, especially when you repeatedly ignore it (that word again) when someone else corrects you.

As for One Red Army, I shall reply to his interesting and informed post separately.

[NY Hoop]

You originally posted the following:
"Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career."

It is not my "opinion" that his international career was already over by then, rather it is a fact, as I demonstrated by a simple appraisal of his international and club career.



It is your fact. Assume all you want. He was told he wouldnt play again and didnt. But thank you for ignoring (is that the word?) what the man himself said. You're correcting nobody here.

KOH

[osarusan]

Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career.

KOH

To be honest, the tone of this post suggests that Dougan's career was cut short early due to IFA bigotry.

It is pretty clear (to me at least) that his career was over anyway, regardless of whether the game was organised or not.

So it correct to say that

Dougan stated he was told it would cost him his career.
He never played again.


or

He was told he wouldnt play again and didnt.
KOH

but it suggests that this was the only reason he didnt play again.

NY Hoop and One Red Army, do you really think he would have gone on to play again?

[EalingGreen]

It is your fact. Assume all you want. He was told he wouldnt play again and didnt. But thank you for ignoring (is that the word?) what the man himself said. You're correcting nobody here.

KOH

Just because Doogan said something doesn't make it fact - as his quotation about the two years following the Brazil game being "amongst his best" demonstrates. Perhaps his recollection wasn't so good as it might have been nearly 30 years later, but the first season following was rather mediocre compared with his glory years and the second was nondescript (three League starts and one goal before retiring)

I have absolutely no desire to speak ill of the dead, but even Dougan's best friends would agree he was often a controversial character.

For example, on a TV chat show a little while back, he made some highly derogatory remarks about the NI support at recent internationals at Windsor (sectarianism etc). When pressed on the matter, he then had to admit that he hadn't actually attended a game in nearly 20 years.

Or, there was his return to Wolves as Chief Executive when the Bhatti Brothers bought the club. In the years which followed, they went millions into debt and plunged to the old Fourth Division. The Bhattis name is absolute dirt around Molineux and it has to be said that the Doog's association with them cast something of a strain upon his reputation amongst the hitherto adoring fans (long since forgiven, it should be added).

His other business and personal dealings, including court cases, were sometimes also rather unsavoury. Further, it was not always coincidental that some of these controversies arose when he had a book out, or was standing for office.

And in any case, he was certainly a contradictory character. For example, he was both a Trade Unionist (Chairman of the PFA) and a parliamentary political candidate of a small, rather "looney" right wing party (UKIP). He was always proud to play for NI, yet he passionately advocated a United Ireland team. He made friends readily, yet he also seemed to fall out with people just as readily.

But having said all that, he was an excellent player, he had many achievements both inside and outside the game and he was apparently always very courteous and personable. Moreover, his views always seemed principled and backed by a fierce intelligence. Above all, he didn't have a sectarian bone in his body.

In that respect, he was not unlike his near contemporary, George Best, and like George I will remember the Doog fondly for his many accomplishments - all else is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

RIP.

[EalingGreen]

In danger of drawing this off-topic but anyone who attempts to defend Harry Cavan as an individual, particularly his actions in relation to Derry City or Dougan, deserves zero respect.

You can complain all you want but Dougan consistently stated he was warned he would never play again for Norn Ireland if he organised the game and he never did play again. In that respect his age or form was irrelevant, its the threat that counts.

As for quoting the Catholics who played in the game and went on to play for NI, again irrelevant as Dougan was targeted as one of the organisers of the game.

Incidentally, the recent book on Fifa corruption (Foul) also paints a less than honorable picture of Mr. Cavan and how he arrived at his substantial wealth.

It is highly likely that it was the fear of a united Irish football association and the resulting loss of the (alleged) backhanders that he received that drove Cavan to protect his fiefdom at the expense of persecution Dougan and Derry City (both ultimately related to All Ireland football issues). But is this any better than being a plain bigot?!

In pointing out that Dougan's international career was already over before he helped organise the Brazil game, I am not defending Harry Cavan, merely drawing attention to the facts of the case.

To put it bluntly, by the summer of 1973, the Doog's best years were behind him, he had already been dropped from the NI side after only scoring 4 times (against crap teams btw) in 33 caps, including none in his last 10 appearances. Further, his club career was almost at an end (he was in his mid-30's, after all) and NI were already giving a chance to much younger strikers who were playing for teams in the (old) First Division.

Therefore, whilst Cavan was no doubt deeply opposed to Dougan's actions, he wasn't such an idiot as to issue a wholly empty threat!

As for your comments on Cavan generally, there is a great deal in what you say. It is an open secret that FIFA, under Joao Havalange, was an enormously corrupt organisation. Therefore, it can be no surprise if at least some amongst his Vice-Presidents were equally so.

But even supposing for the sake of argument his Presidency of the IFA had been entirely free of corruption and backhanders, it would hardly be a surprise if someone in that position were to oppose any action which might lead to his organisation going out of existence (e.g. merger into an All-Ireland Association).

After all, the FAI were no more keen on such a development than their counterparts in Belfast, for precisely the same reasons. (And whilst we're on the subject, I'd be interested to hear the views of football fans in the Republic of the conduct and probity of Cavan's counterpart, Mr. Kilcoyne - not that that would excuse anything, I should add).

Further, I have never seen any evidence that Cavan was motivated in any way by sectarianism, either in respect of opposing an all-Ireland team or anything else, but I'm open to be corrected.

And as for the case you cite of Derry City, I don't actually remember the events myself, but I can't see the link between their leaving the Irish League and Cavan concealing any alleged corruption or protecting the IFA against merger with the FAI.

In fact, from what I've ever seen, even Derry City fans appear to reserve their wrath for the Irish League, since that is the body which controlled these things, not the IFA. If anything, had Cavan wanted to bolster the IFA against a threatened merger/takeover by the FAI, it would have been in his interests to keep Derry out of their control.

[OneRedArmy]

And as for the case you cite of Derry City, I don't actually remember the events myself, but I can't see the link between their leaving the Irish League and Cavan concealing any alleged corruption or protecting the IFA against merger with the FAI.Cavan not only was instrumental in Derry's continued refusal of re-admittance to the IL, but also over a decade later tried to prevent UEFA approving Derry's entrance to the LoI (presumably for "slippy slope" reasons).

[CollegeTillIDie]

Derek Dougan RIP... He was not alone in not scoring prolifically for NI. People tend to forget Bestie only netted 9 times for the North in international games.
And may he RIP too.

[BleusAvantTout]

I'm not speaking ill of the dead and I'm speaking solely from a football perspective, I always liked the "Doog" but never,ever rated him as a footballer!

[AnnaghRed]

Seen him play in a 0-3 defeat v's Spurs during a school trip in 1975.

[Not Brazil]

I'll believe what came from the man's mouth


The Doog was many things - being a man who always spoke his mind was one.

Being a man who always spoke the truth was not another.

A man of wide contradictions.

A Northern Irish version of Eamon Dunphy, in many ways.

And - a very gifted footballer, whom I had the pleasure to watch in my childhood.

May he rest in peace.

[Not Brazil]

Further, I have never seen any evidence that Cavan was motivated in any way by sectarianism, either in respect of opposing an all-Ireland team or anything else, but I'm open to be corrected.


EG,

As you are only too well aware, many supporters of an All Ireland team label anyone who opposes that notion as "sectarian".

Cavan was "guilty" only of protecting the interests of the Irish Football Association.

The Northern Irish team at the time included, as it always has and will, players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland.

[gspain]

There were reports of a bust up between Derek Dougan and Harry Cavan on a flight back from Cyprus where NI lost 1-0. I don't have a source for it but remember hearing it sometime back. This was his last game for Northern Ireland This was months before the Brazil game was even organised. NI played 5 games between Nicosia and the date of the Brazi lgame.

Appreciate this is hearsay but a much more likely cause for he "being dropped" although his age would have to be a key factor as well.

[soccerc]

Had to share this. It's from an elderly now Rep of Ireland supporter.

From the age of about 7 I was a fervent Distillery supporter. When I was 15 I was signed by Glentoran, and played mainly for their third team *Coop Recreation) in the N.I. Amateur League. I was unable to play every week as I played rugby at school on Saturday morning, In those days we used public transport to get to games and it wasn't always possible to get back in time for the football. I was selected reserve (non-playing in those days).

Distillery were the first club to install floodlights, and there was a Floodlight Competition for U18 teams for the Toby Mercer Cup. We played Distillery in the Final in 1955 and after about 15 minutes we were down to 10 players, no replacements in those days. I was put at centre-half marking this giant about 8 inches taller. He was then a regular member of the Distillery 1st team, as were two of his teamates, Denis Shiels a right winger and Harry (Tucker) Orr a left half who was a friend from Lisburn. Both Denis and Tucker went to Sheffield United at the end of the season. Dougan was transferred to Portsmouth after captaining Distillery at the age of 17.

Glentorn were rank outsiders, only an inside forward Walter Bruce was really prominent at the time.
Despite this, and playing with 10 men most of the game we won the Cup 3-1 and the "Doog" went home scoreless.

I got to know him well over the next months. Several of us would go on on Saturday nights..

When I left for England, I next met him when I went as a supporter to the 1958 World Cup, and we stayed in the Players Hotel in a small seaside resort of Tylosand, a mile or two from Halmstad when we played all the group maps.

Derek was 19 and got his first cap in the first game against czdchoslovakia when NI won 1-0. The N.i. team that evening was:

Harry Gregg,(Man U - just a few months after Munich)
Dick Keith and Alf McMichael (Newcastle) the fullbacks
Danny Blanchflower(Spurs) Willie Cunningham(Arsenal) and Bertie Peacock(Celtic) the latter reputed to have been an ex-oragemman)
Billy Bingham(Sunderland0 Wilbur Cush(Leeds) Derek Dougan
Jimmy McIlroy(Burnley) and Peter McParland(Villa)

Although I thought the Doog did okay, he was dropped for the next game against Argentina for Fay Coyle, who was also dropped aftet a game with McParland moving to centre-forward as N.I. progressed to the quarter-final.

I met Derek again on a fewoccasions when he played for Leicester, when I was living near there in the mid-sixties. But have not seen his since, although were kept in touch (infrequently)
He sent me a copy of his book (The Sash He Never Wore -Twenty Five Years On) a few years ag, with a lovely message, and a short letter.

Like others, I was amazed when I heard he had joined UKIP. It was not the Doog I knew. He was on Question Time fairly recently but I gave it a miss!

A great character did an awful lot of good for football, and I hope one day his dream - which he tried to do something about- that an all-Ireland team will come about, will come to pass.
Replying to you last point first, my father was born in Derriaghy. He was a member of the Orange Lodge there, L.O.L. 135.

To Pinkie's point - alas my few souvenirs from 1958 have long since disappeared. Lost when I was doing National Service in the RAF in Cyprus.

A friend Jim Murray and myself sailed from Tilbury in Essex to Gothenburg. It took about 18 hours. the only things i remember about the trip was that I appeared to be the only one eating a hearty breakfast on the Saturday morning - the others were leaning over the side being sick, and we appeared to be the only N.I. supporters on the boat, apart from one lovely ginger haired lady who turned out to the the wife of the manager, the wonderful Peter Doherty. No first class travel for wags in those days.

After the second game in Halmstad- defeat against Argentina, we took the train to Malmo on the south coast. After the excellent hotel in Tylosand we were running short of funds and found a B & B, not easy as there were thousands of German fans there. We thought they were aloof and arrogant, and we spent most of our time a fairly short ferry trip away in the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen.

One thing that may suprise you is that I would estimate that there were not more than 20-25 N.I. suppporters following the team at any one time.

After the great draw 2-2 against Germany which gave us a play-off against Czechoslavakia (again) for a quarter-final place, about 20 of us went on the field at the final whistle to cheer the team. Huge mistake. Norn Iron had played Italy in the last qualifying game, needing a win to get to the finals. it was played in December at Windsor Park, and the Match Officials were fogged in somewhere, and did not arrive. It was decided, as all the crowd were in, to go ahead and play a friendly. What a friendly it turned out to be. It finished 2-2, and the fans were incensed by the Italian players
behaviour during the game. Thousands raided the pitch at the final whistle, and I think one of the Italian players had his arm broken.
After a very hostile press, it was a surprise to many that the game was replayed at Windsor Park. A 2-1 win took Norn Iron to their first World Cup final, and incidently the first time Italy had failed to qualify.

When we left out B&B in Malmo on the way to the stadium the very kind landlady gave us a tram ticket which would have taken us past the ground. We had already decided to walk as it was under a mile. When we booked out, whe had included the few okes or whatever it was on the bill. That receipt was one of the things I kept.

After the draw with Germany we decided to stay on for the play-off game, but stayed in a very cheap but peasant place in Copenhagen.

After victory and a quarter-final in Norpopping against France beckoned, but we were literally broke and headed back to Gothenburg and a boat back to Tilbury.

On passing a newsagents Jim spotted on the front page of a local paper a huge photo of me, or my head to be precise locked in a policemans grip. It was another momento I lost.

At the Germany game, a reporter had come round to where the 20 or so supporters were gathered, and asked our names and ages, and where we were from. Inside this newspaper we saw a full page aritcle with our names mentioned. On the boat we asked a Swedish girl to translate. It said that towards the end of the game i was so nervous i was smoking two cigarettes at a time. (I didn't smoke), and it said Jim Murray was so angry when we were denied a penalty, ti reminded him of the time he was shot down in his Hurricane over the English Channel during the war. It was all made up nonsense, but in Jim's case it was something I was able to use when I was best man at his wedding a few years later - to a German girl.

N.I. had a squad of 16 players, and one Billy Simpson the Rangers centre-forward broke down on the sands in Tylosand training, and had to go home. The Czechlovakia game was on Sunday, Argentine on Wednesday, Germany on Sunday, Czechoslovakia again on Tuesday, and the quarter-final against France on the Thursday.

Harry Gregg, suffered a bad injury against German, and Norman Uprichard played in the play-off, but broke his hand. Harry who had been walking with the aid of a stick on the Wednesday had to play the following day.

When you said in your first sentence that what you wanted to know, and everyone too polite to ask,, I thought you were going to ask me too explain how someone born 70 years ago into a staunchly loyalist family in N. I. ends up supporting ROI?