Celtic Cup?

[bwagner]

Guys was just talking with a mate who said the Wales fa..FAW are trying to organise a celtic cup in 2009 with Eire, Scotland Wales and N.Eire

I know people recently here were talking about who would beat who among us and Scotland etc so hopefully we will find out.

I thing this would make the FAI a lot of money

[tetsujin1979]

More here: http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_2442264,00.html

[Torn-Ado]

Players wont go for it. Cant see it happening tbh

[Stuttgart88]

It's in the Guardian today too.

All the senior players mightn't need to play but maybe more of the fringe t0ssers who were too busy starting their 6 week holidays to go to the US could be bothered. A competitive friendly with fans actually having something to get excited about rather than a proper friendly is far more appealling and probably more beneficial too, if used right.

[dcfcsteve]

As this is a club-based suggestion, it's already being discussed on the Eircom League forum : http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=63849

It's a Setanta initiative - not an FAW one, who aren't even considering it and have left it to the Welsh Premier League to ponder over.

P.S. Where the fcuk is N.Eire.......?!? :confused:

[Dodge]

Different thing steve.

The expansion of the Setanta Cup is for club sides and the moves are being made by the IFA

The lads here are talking about the Celtic Cup for national sides, and thats being led by the FAW

[dcfcsteve]

Different thing steve.

The expansion of the Setanta Cup is for club sides and the moves are being made by the IFA

The lads here are talking about the Celtic Cup for national sides, and thats being led by the FAW

My mistake - thanks Dodge.

Though where he fcuk is N.Eire.......? :D

[Lionel Ritchie]

My mistake - thanks Dodge.

Though where he fcuk is N.Eire.......? :D

Donegal I'd have thought ....didn't know they were competing on their own these days mind. More feckin seperatists -jaysis between them, the corkonians with their Peoples Republic of more-tired-than-Wassup and Jackie Healy Rae inspiring the cantonisation of large chunks of the country ...where'll it end at all?

The french canadian cousins on the other side of the line'll be smelling their own armpits wondering why they weren't invited.

[livehead1]

Though where he fcuk is N.Eire.......? :D

Ealing Green will love that one, suprised he hasn't started spouting yet. Probably in mid process of writing a thesis on the topic.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Meant to say by the way ...I'm uncomfortable with the idea of this hypothetical 'Celtic Cup' on a few fronts.

*Setanta Cup notwithstanding, I'd have a reasonable concern that a regular fixture between us and NI might attract a motivated gobsh1te element to smear the rep of both sets of supporters.

*The competetive edge notwitstanding -I'm not sure what real footballing benefit there would be to any of the four sides involved. The vast majority of the players involved play each other in the same domestic league anyway.

*UEFA might have a thing or two to say about parrallel mini-tournaments being run alongside their qualifiers for Euro/WC finals and then possibly deflecting from those finals.

[Metrostars]

My mistake - thanks Dodge.

Though where he fcuk is N.Eire.......? :D

What Steve? You dont have a sense of humour?

[bwagner]

god lads ye all loved the N.Eire thing ...so I have just wrote to big Ian in stormont suggesting he take the name on board

[Stuttgart88]

Meant to say by the way ...I'm uncomfortable with the idea of this hypothetical 'Celtic Cup' on a few fronts.

*Setanta Cup notwithstanding, I'd have a reasonable concern that a regular fixture between us and NI might attract a motivated gobsh1te element to smear the rep of both sets of supporters.

*The competetive edge notwitstanding -I'm not sure what real footballing benefit there would be to any of the four sides involved. The vast majority of the players involved play each other in the same domestic league anyway.

*UEFA might have a thing or two to say about parrallel mini-tournaments being run alongside their qualifiers for Euro/WC finals and then possibly deflecting from those finals.

Fair points, but the friendlies we do play are all lacklustre affairs anyway. A competitive edgge / local derby edge may add some urgency.

Agree totally about the further exposure to the same type of football.

The timing is August & February. Can't see this deflecting from interest in "those finals".

I only think there's merit in something like this if it's done to give experience to fringe players but in a more meaningful context than a US trip. That said, it sounds a bit gimmicky and it's down to our management and players to make the best of the friendly calendar which they should be able to do without a local mini tournament.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The timing is August & February. Can't see this deflecting from interest in "those finals".
...but assuming this mini-tournament would only get "friendly" status ...what do we do if, as in our current qualifying campaign, two of the four end up in the same group? I can't see that being tolerated by anyone ...UEFA, FIFA, other teams in the group ...never mind the potential damage to gate receipts from "burn out" factor.

[Stuttgart88]

Then we'd just ditch it.

Anyway, I've gone off the idea. More important things to think about on a Friday afternoon!

God, the clock is ticking along slowly today.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing Green will love that one, suprised he hasn't started spouting yet. Probably in mid process of writing a thesis on the topic.

Calm down. It ["N.Eire"] was clearly a typo, esp coming from Bwagner, who seems to me the type to try to stick to the subject without the need to score petty points. Unlike some. :rolleyes:

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ok instead of meaningless friendlies all the time, every two years we play Scotland , Northern Ireland and Wales , for a revival of the Old Home Championships( which England pulled out of in 1984 in a strop cause they were having a hard time beating Northern Ireland :D ) The games could be played during International Friendly dates. And the games would be a bit more competitive as national pride would be at stake. Maybe we could get Magners to sponsor it.... Two Celtic Cups one Cider anyone?

Now fly in the Ointment... what anthem for the Wee North? :D

[EalingGreen]

Although crowds at many of the matches had dropped in its latter years, I know I and a lot of other NI fans enjoyed the old Home Championships - esp when we won it twice in its last four years!

Therefore, I'd be all for giving this new tournament a go. Having it every two years (i.e. non-Euro and WC years) seems sensible, since international fixture congestion seems to be the biggest hurdle.

With the Home Championships, they tried a couple of different formats. Traditionally, the games were slotted in throughout the season, but latterly when interest etc began to die off as the Euros, WC and club football assumed ever greater importance, they changed this to try and refresh things.

Games came to be played over an eight day period at the end of the season, culminating with the Wales/NI game on the final Friday and England/Scotland the following afternoon.

Although players, managers etc sometimes complained about fatigue, or that it had a "fag-end" feel to it, I personally preferred it, since it had a proper "finals" feel to it i.e. you didn't have to wait two or three months for the next game.

Therefore I quite like the proposal to keep this end of season format. Indeed, I would go a step further and have one city hosting the event over an eight or nine day period. You could have the two "semi-finals" on the opening Friday evening and Saturday afternoon (or Saturday and Sunday), with the third place game on the following Friday evening or Saturday afternoon and the Final the following day.

That way, you could rotate it, say Cardiff in 2009, Glasgow in 2011, Dublin in 2013 and Belfast in 2015 (if we ever get a bloody Stadium built by then!). I quite like the idea of fans from the different countries congregating in one city either for the whole week, or travelling in/out for one or both of the two weekends.

Of course, there is always the possibility of aggro beween different sets of fans (esp. you-know-who :(), but that is liable to happen no matter what format is chosen; in the end, we've got to "bite the bullet" and deal with it if this tournament is going to happen.

Bring it on, I say! :)

[EalingGreen]

Now fly in the Ointment... what anthem for the Wee North? :D


No, we're all right, we've got one, thanks ;)

[livehead1]

unfortunately for some it will no longer be a 'home championship' with our inclusion.

maybe some day you'll have an anthem of your own instead of that of your colonial masters

[Torn-Ado]

unfortunately for some it will no longer be a 'home championship' with our inclusion.

maybe some day you'll have an anthem of your own instead of that of your colonial masters

But they're British first and foremost. They have no affiliation with the Irish Republic. Its a completely different country.

Marching, however :rolleyes:

[carloz]

What can be learned from it. We will be playing teams that play a similar style of football to us. IMO much more can be learned from friendlies such as our up coming one against Denmark. I think it might work for us if we use it for our B team.

[EalingGreen]

unfortunately for some it will no longer be a 'home championship' with our inclusion.

maybe some day you'll have an anthem of your own instead of that of your colonial masters

Of course it won't be the Home (more properly "British") Championship; that's why the working title is the Celtic Cup :rolleyes:

As for the Anthem, thank you for your advice on what song we should play, but we don't need it, thank you very much.

For myself, I have long felt that the NI and England football teams should have their own distinctive anthems (like Scotland and Wales), but the more I'm told what to do by outsiders, the more I appreciate GSTQ.

Above all, it would be sad if the ROI felt unable to participate in any new competition merely because one or two of their supporters objected to the National Anthem of another participant...:eek:

[EalingGreen]

What can be learned from it. We will be playing teams that play a similar style of football to us. IMO much more can be learned from friendlies such as our up coming one against Denmark. I think it might work for us if we use it for our B team.

I take your first point (different styles), but are you seriously proposing that the ROI field its "B" team against the other three countries' "A" teams? :confused:

[Paddy Garcia]

Above all, it would be sad if the ROI felt unable to participate in any new competition merely because one or two of their supporters objected to the National Anthem of another participant...:eek:

No-one said that, though you, sadly, seem to want to believe it.

I really don't think we have anything to gain from playing the North. Our experience with lesser teams is that we have a tendency to get dragged down to their level. We should aim to play against the top teams who will stretch us & build appropriate experience for our players.

[RogerMilla]

i cant get over the negativity here , the chance to win a tournament ?? competitive fixtures?? decent opposition?? too right bring on the celtic cup , i can see it now perched in our newly purchased cabinet beside the Iceland tournament trophy !

[dcfcsteve]

What Steve? You dont have a sense of humour?

Won't I don't have is an atlas with 'N. fcukin Eire' in it........:D

[youngirish]

No-one said that, though you, sadly, seem to want to believe it.

I really don't think we have anything to gain from playing the North. Our experience with lesser teams is that we have a tendency to get dragged down to their level. We should aim to play against the top teams who will stretch us & build appropriate experience for our players.

I agree and I don't see the benefit of it for us either. Most of our top players won't be bothered with it. We'll have to play our C team as with the trip to the states. The North would take it far more seriously.

[galwayhoop]

...but assuming this mini-tournament would only get "friendly" status ...what do we do if, as in our current qualifying campaign, two of the four end up in the same group? I can't see that being tolerated by anyone ...UEFA, FIFA, other teams in the group .

can't see a problem really. if for example the tournament was on this year and we were drawn against wales in the semi then either the march/november uefa qualifing fixture between the teams could double as the 'celtic cup' game. problem solved. everyone happy. all you would need to do was pre-arrange what to do in the event of a drawn game - maybe go back to the 'coin toss'. or more practical would be to keep teams on seperate sides of the 'celtic cup' if they are in the same quualifing group. if they happened to meet in the final then use the qualifing fixture as the final and if it is a draw then play the final on the next available friendly date.

and btw what effect do you think it would have on the other teams in the group that you say they wouldn't tolerate it? if the two relevant associations are happy, and uefa are happy then it is no-one elses business.



...never mind the potential damage to gate receipts from "burn out" factor.


it is only 2 games for each country ffs! one semi final and a final or a 3rd place play-off. how would that damage gate receipts? i reckon they would all be sell-outs as they would offer the 'celtic;' teams bragging rights over each other.

as for 'burn out' the games would be played in the august and november friendly dates - so it would be no more or less than they play now! and in fact with the games being more competitive than friendlies and players playing against their friends, collegues and rivals i'm sure there would be less withdrawals than a run of the mill friendly.

and in fairness it would offer players from these parts a very real prospect of winning medals (however insignificant in the grand scheme of things) at international level.

[Lionel Ritchie]

can't see a problem really. if for example the tournament was on this year and we were drawn against wales in the semi then either the march/november uefa qualifing fixture between the teams could double as the 'celtic cup' game. problem solved. everyone happy. all you would need to do was pre-arrange what to do in the event of a drawn game - maybe go back to the 'coin toss'. Hmmm ...that has merit




and btw what effect do you think it would have on the other teams in the group that you say they wouldn't tolerate it? if the two relevant associations are happy, and uefa are happy then it is no-one elses business. I can't recall a campaign in our history where we played a friendly against a current competitor in a qualifying series. Commercial reasons aside I suspected there might be a moratiorium of some sort for fear it may allow wealthier, bigger associatons set up friendlies with the smaller countries, the minnows even, in their groups to use as "dry runs" to make sure there's no fcuk ups when it matters.



it is only 2 games for each country ffs! one semi final and a final or a 3rd place play-off. how would that damage gate receipts? i reckon they would all be sell-outs as they would offer the 'celtic;' teams bragging rights over each other.

as for 'burn out' the games would be played in the august and november friendly dates - so it would be no more or less than they play now! and in fact with the games being more competitive than friendlies and players playing against their friends, collegues and rivals i'm sure there would be less withdrawals than a run of the mill friendly.

and in fairness it would offer players from these parts a very real prospect of winning medals (however insignificant in the grand scheme of things) at international level.

Hands up on this one. I didn't know the format when I posted and assumed it'd be a round-robin. I was speculating on the possibility of us playing -for example Wales in November -rounding off a qualification series we might both be out of contention in ...and then facing them again in February.

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Above all, it would be sad if the ROI felt unable to participate in any new competition merely because one or two of their supporters objected to the National Anthem of another participant..."


No-one said that, though you, sadly, seem to want to believe it.

I really don't think we have anything to gain from playing the North. Our experience with lesser teams is that we have a tendency to get dragged down to their level. We should aim to play against the top teams who will stretch us & build appropriate experience for our players.

Re. the Anthems, the debate over this topic was proceeding merrily, until CollegeTID and Livehead (both ROI supporters) raised the subject of the NI anthem, along the lines that it might be some sort of a problem. Well as far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely no problem what anthems are played, or none. Clear enough?

As for your second paragraph do you honestly believe that NI is currently a "lesser" team than ROI? And what about Scotland? Between us, we provide 2/3 of your opposition in the proposed tournament.

If anything, it might offer the chance to drag you up...;)

[EalingGreen]

it is only 2 games for each country ffs! one semi final and a final or a 3rd place play-off. how would that damage gate receipts? i reckon they would all be sell-outs as they would offer the 'celtic;' teams bragging rights over each other.


Agree with your overall sentiment, GH. On the particular point of receipts etc, I imagine it should be possible to sell the TV rights for such a competition to Sky or Setanta etc for a decent sum, unlike say, the end of season tours to the USA which ROI and NI have undertaken in the last two years.

I would guess that a regular tournament would be more attractive to sponsors and advertisers than a series of ad hoc friendlies against all sorts of opposition, some of them overseas, and/or at inconvenient kick-off times.

It's sad, I know, but increasingly these days Associations have to think about what will bring in the most revenue, with the fans (unfortunately) having to fit in around it. From my own experience of the old Home Champs, however, "fitting in around" was no hardship - quite the opposite in fact, since the diehard fans appreciated the tournament, even if the "Event Junkies" were often apathetic.

[NeilMcD]

I like friendlies so we can play team with different styles of football. Also you can go on better away trips than Belfast Cardiff and Glasgow.

[lopez]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
[I]
Re. the Anthems, the debate over this topic was proceeding merrily, until CollegeTID and Livehead (both ROI supporters) raised the subject of the NI anthem, along the lines that it might be some sort of a problem. Well as far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely no problem what anthems are played, or none. Clear enough?Only problem in the past with the anthem was that it was illiegal to play it in the O6C, as well as fly the flag. I know the RUC tended to turn a blind eye to the sort of low level community festival ending with it, only coming out at the inistence of the current first minister, whose job as a youth was that of the flag and song police for the whole of O6C, when he demanded the removal of some small flag from the office of a political party. Despite the predictions from mister community po-leees-mahn, this ended, correct me if I'm wrong, in a riot spreading over a couple of days.

Therefore, could you bring me up to speed EG, and tell me: Is it legal to play the Soldiers Song at SGC Park now without fear of prosecution?

[EalingGreen]

Only problem in the past with the anthem was that it was illiegal to play it in the O6C, as well as fly the flag. I know the RUC tended to turn a blind eye to the sort of low level community festival ending with it, only coming out at the inistence of the current first minister, whose job as a youth was that of the flag and song police for the whole of O6C, when he demanded the removal of some small flag from the office of a political party. Despite the predictions from mister community po-leees-mahn, this ended, correct me if I'm wrong, in a riot spreading over a couple of days.

Therefore, could you bring me up to speed EG, and tell me: Is it legal to play the Soldiers Song at SGC Park now without fear of prosecution?

Re your first paragraph, I have absolutely no idea of the relevance of any of it to the proposed Celtic Cup.

Re. the second paragraph, I have no idea where/when it is legal to play the anthem of the ROI and I don't know why you're asking me, never mind what relevance it has to this debate. In fact, I don't even know where/what "SGC Park" is.

You really do seem to have a mess of hang-ups, don't you? Perhaps you'd feel more at home on Slugger O'Toole, or some such other bear-pit...:confused:

[lopez]

Re your first paragraph, I have absolutely no idea of the relevance of any of it to the proposed Celtic Cup. :
What relevence has anthems to this competition?


Above all, it would be sad if the ROI felt unable to participate in any new competition merely because one or two of their supporters objected to the National Anthem of another participant...


Re. the second paragraph, I have no idea where/when it is legal to play the anthem of the ROI and I don't know why you're asking me, never mind what relevance it has to this debate. In fact, I don't even know where/what "SGC Park" is.
I'm asking you if the situation has changed and it is legal to sing the anthem or fly the flag at NI's home games. I thought you might know, as you support NI, and consider yourself a know it all. You don't seem to know though! That's a shame.

You really do seem to have a mess of hang-ups, don't you? Perhaps you'd feel more at home on Slugger O'Toole, or some such other bear-pit...:confused:Ahhh! Thanks for the recommendation, but like you on the choice of anthems, I'll decline your advice.

[EalingGreen]

What relevence has anthems to this competition?


I'm asking you if the situation has changed and it is legal to sing the anthem or fly the flag at NI's home games. I thought you might know, as you support NI, and consider yourself a know it all. You don't seem to know though! That's a shame.


As I've posted elsewhere, the issue of which anthems are played at any Celtic Cup is of no concern to me. You should address your queries to those two ROI fans (CollegeTID and Livehead) who raised the subject.

As for anthems and flags at Windsor, neither issue has prevented our hosting Scotland, Wales and ROI a number of times over the last two or three decades in both friendlies and competitive matches. I fail to see why the Celtic Cup should be any different.

Anyhow, your particular brand of trolling is neither big nor clever; indeed, it has long since passed its usual purpose (i.e. to irritate, or wind up). Instead, it is just plain boring. :(

Good Bye.

[youngirish]

As I've posted elsewhere, the issue of which anthems are played at any Celtic Cup is of no concern to me. You should address your queries to those two ROI fans (CollegeTID and Livehead) who raised the subject.

As for anthems and flags at Windsor, neither issue has prevented our hosting Scotland, Wales and ROI a number of times over the last two or three decades in both friendlies and competitive matches. I fail to see why the Celtic Cup should be any different.

Anyhow, your particular brand of trolling is neither big nor clever; indeed, it has long since passed its usual purpose (i.e. to irritate, or wind up). Instead, it is just plain boring. :(

Good Bye.

How is it always you who manages to get these threads to degenerate into some boring North V's South political spat? It's a talent but not one to be proud of. No-one in the south gives a balls.

P.S. David Healy is muck.

[Kivlehan]

Sorry to interrupt your political debate here but what I think would be neat would be if the competition included Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and two "guest nations" that can be picked from countries with large populations of diaspora from Celtic nations. Examples would be the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England. If you expanded this potential invitational group to have sides representing "Celtic nations" like Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia and maybe even (snicker) the Isle of Man that would be neat. That would give a number of groups to chose from for 2 spots every 2 years and I'm sure there are more you could find with a signifcant enough Celtic-nations diaspora to add to that list.

[Torn-Ado]

what I think would be neat

You know what would be neat. If you never used the word 'neat' again.

:p

[Kivlehan]

You know what would be neat. If you never used the word 'neat' again.

:p

Neat idea.

[osarusan]

my bedroom is neat.

Torn-Ado, how do you like THAT??!! HA!!

[Torn-Ado]

my bedroom is neat.

Torn-Ado, how do you like THAT??!! HA!!

Thats probably because you are an obsessive compulsive wierdo.

Righty back at ya..

:D;)

[RogerMilla]

Of course it won't be the Home (more properly "British") Championship; that's why the working title is the Celtic Cup :rolleyes:

Above all, it would be sad if the ROI felt unable to participate in any new competition merely because one or two of their supporters objected to the National Anthem of another participant...:eek:

Ealing , I think you and I both know there will be no trouble over the anthems, don't get drawn in and also dotn make a mountain out of a previously flattened molehill.

As far as the competition goes i am massively in favour , the success of the setanta cup shows that we could definitely make this thing work. Would love to be present in Belfast the night we beat NI to lift the trophy , what an occasion it would be!

[galwayhoop]

..... diaspora from Celtic nations. Examples would be the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England. If you expanded this potential invitational group to have sides representing "Celtic nations" like Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia and maybe even (snicker) the Isle of Man that would be neat.

as neat and all as your idea is i think we would class ourselves as a slightly different level than CORNWALL. quite apart from the fact that we are a country and all!!

the fact that there is debate as to whether we are at a standard above the 3 other 'nations' in the proposed celtic league (i happen to think we currently are not btw) would make your proposition of CORNWALL (ffs man), Gailicia and the Isle of Man either a joke (WUM???) or expose your knowledge of football in these parts as that of way less than anything even approaching ignorance.

as for the US, Canada and NZ the amount of travelling involved would render these options useless as the games are proposed on friendly dates with limitations on player availability.

[NeilMcD]

I wanna go to the mall now and hang out.

[RogerMilla]

I wanna go to the mall now and hang out.

hang out with my girlfriends

[Lionel Ritchie]

as neat and all as your idea is i think we would class ourselves as a slightly different level than CORNWALL. quite apart from the fact that we are a country and all!!

the fact that there is debate as to whether we are at a standard above the 3 other 'nations' in the proposed celtic league (i happen to think we currently are not btw) would make your proposition of CORNWALL (ffs man), Gailicia and the Isle of Man either a joke (WUM???) or expose your knowledge of football in these parts as that of way less than anything even approaching ignorance.

as for the US, Canada and NZ the amount of travelling involved would render these options useless as the games are proposed on friendly dates with limitations on player availability.

D'y'know what one of the most striking differences between Ireland and the Isle of Man is? Isle of Man didn't concede a goal to San Marino.

[livehead1]

Ealing , I think you and I both know there will be no trouble over the anthems, don't get drawn in and also dotn make a mountain out of a previously flattened molehill.

As far as the competition goes i am massively in favour , the success of the setanta cup shows that we could definitely make this thing work. Would love to be present in Belfast the night we beat NI to lift the trophy , what an occasion it would be!

Any chance he gets to bring up politics he will use it, i wouldn't even entertain him. Let them play what they want, sure they can play the sash if they so wish by my book.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Any chance he gets to bring up politics he will use it, i wouldn't even entertain him. Let them play what they want, sure they can play the sash if they so wish by my book.

In the interests of truth and accuracy I'm going to point out that Ealing Green did not bring up politics, anthems etc... he merely gave a straight answer to a post probably written to bait him. I wish people on here would read through threads a little more thoroughly before chucking their orb about.