Maze stadium plan 'will proceed'

[Steve Bruce]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6766289.stm

Well it looks like they are going forward with this regardless of the feeling from NI supporters.

It's going to cost the tax payer over 100 million, when it could cost far less to bring Windsor up to standard.

The location is rubbish to, no infrusture at all. This all has to be built at the expense of tax payers.

Then there is Poots, who ISN'T serving the people of Northern Ireland, he is serving his constituents and his constituents only. He should never have been in this ministerial position where he has obvious vested interests. But then what do we expect from politicians in Northern Ireland.

Our politicians are good at shouting about the Green/Orange part of politics, but when it comes to actually making decisions, they are about as useful ashtray on a bike.

[SolitudeRed]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6766289.stm

Well it looks like they are going forward with this regardless of the feeling from NI supporters.

It's going to cost the tax payer over 100 million, when it could cost far less to bring Windsor up to standard.

The location is rubbish to, no infrusture at all. This all has to be built at the expense of tax payers.

Then there is Poots, who ISN'T serving the people of Northern Ireland, he is serving his constituents and his constituents only. He should never have been in this ministerial position where he has obvious vested interests. But then what do we expect from politicians in Northern Ireland.

Our politicians are good at shouting about the Green/Orange part of politics, but when it comes to actually making decisions, they are about as useful ashtray on a bike.

Aye this is a bit of a joke nobody wants the maze its in the middle of nowhere! saw your man Poots there on the news he was claiming that Belfast city Council were not being proactive enough in terms of their bid to have the stadium built in Belfast, apparently they have shown him no plans etc!

But isn't there a bit of a conflict of interest here as the Maze site is in the constituency which Edwin Poots is an MLA for?

[kdjaC]

So GAA are not objecting to this in any way :confused:

It really is a different country up there.

kdjac

[SolitudeRed]

Well unlike Tallaght I believe the stadium will be designed from the outset to accomodate Football Rugby and Gaelic games. However I don't think the Ulster GAA are that keen on the idea of using a stadium in which 'foreign Games' are played and so despite the fact that the GAA said they would use it I'm not sure they actually will!

Unlike the south the GAA doesn't wield as much political clout in the North for obvious reasons! But I hope Rovers can overcome the GAA nuts down in Dublin and get the stadium they deserve!

[Student Mullet]

The GAA has to pay tax on gate receipts in the North so they play big ulster games in the south.

[BleusAvantTout]

I'll post what I have posted on ILF

"Right I've read this thread and listened, half heartedly, to the National Stadium debate. My understanding is that the government will release £160 million for the Maze stadium.


The Marketing Director, Windsor Roar, has a profitable solution for Northern Ireland. Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.


That leaves £100 million surplus for health, education, roads, environment or whatever! Everybodys happy .....................................except Edwin Comelately!!!


My proposals are not "rocket science" but you all know it makes sense! "

[BohsPartisan]

Everyone knows it makes sense except the people running the show. Same story different place. Other interests always come before the common good.

[crc]

Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.
The Maze is not the best place for the stadium, and personally I would have preferred somewhere in Belfast (near the city centre), BUT, one of the (few) things going for the Maze site is that it doesn't belong to (or even appear to belong to) either tribe (and that is a huge consideration when you're going to spend public money in NI).

You could quite easily upgrade Windsor, but I doubt you'd make it in to a cross-community shared piece of public infrastructure (especially not if Linfield would retain ownership); ditto for Casement and Ravenhill. I doubt you'd get that many Protestants/Unionists down to Casement Park even if you turned it into a stadium as good as the Stade de France or Allianz Arena (and vice-versa for Windsor).

As I said, the Maze is not the right decision, but neither would be the status quo with corporate boxes.

[dcfcsteve]

Let's face it people - thwe only sensible location for a national stadium is in Derry.

The City is in dire need of a new stadium, and none of our MLA's are Ministers at Stormont, so there could be no allegation of nepotism in any such decision.

You know it makes sense...... :D

[Steve Bruce]

Let's face it people - thwe only sensible location for a national stadium is in Derry.

The City is in dire need of a new stadium, and none of our MLA's are Ministers at Stormont, so there could be no allegation of nepotism in any such decision.

You know it makes sense...... :D

I know an even better place London............. Don't matter;):D

[Steve Bruce]

I'll post what I have posted on ILF

"Right I've read this thread and listened, half heartedly, to the National Stadium debate. My understanding is that the government will release £160 million for the Maze stadium.


The Marketing Director, Windsor Roar, has a profitable solution for Northern Ireland. Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.


That leaves £100 million surplus for health, education, roads, environment or whatever! Everybodys happy .....................................except Edwin Comelately!!!


My proposals are not "rocket science" but you all know it makes sense! "

And 20 Million for Steve Bruce - Everyone is happy:D

[dcfcsteve]

I know an even better pace

What was wrong with the pace of the current discussion......?

:D :p

[EalingGreen]

The Maze is not the best place for the stadium, and personally I would have preferred somewhere in Belfast (near the city centre), BUT, one of the (few) things going for the Maze site is that it doesn't belong to (or even appear to belong to) either tribe (and that is a huge consideration when you're going to spend public money in NI).

You could quite easily upgrade Windsor, but I doubt you'd make it in to a cross-community shared piece of public infrastructure (especially not if Linfield would retain ownership); ditto for Casement and Ravenhill. I doubt you'd get that many Protestants/Unionists down to Casement Park even if you turned it into a stadium as good as the Stade de France or Allianz Arena (and vice-versa for Windsor).

As I said, the Maze is not the right decision, but neither would be the status quo with corporate boxes.

I understand entirely the sentiment behind your post, CRC, but I don't think the Maze will solve the problem of sporting division in NI, because I don't see how/why the Ulster rugby crowd trooping out to the Maze on a Friday evening, followed by the NI crowd attending on a Saturday afternoon, followed by the GAA crowd watching a game on Sunday afternoon will change the attitudes or demographics of the three sports' respective fanbases. Why should it? Am I really going to change my current apathy towards GAA, and lukewarm interest in rugby into something more concrete merely because
they occasionally share a stadium on different days, at different times of the year?

Not only will a shared stadium not do anything for the problem but if anything, it will merely make things worse, since if it is the wrong design of stadium, in the wrong location, with hopelessly inadequate infrastructure, it will deter the more casual supporters amongst all three codes from attending their own preferred sport. This will then just leave the "hardcore" fans, who almost by definition, show the least crossover to other sports anyhow.

As an analogy, the nearby Sprucefield Shopping Centre draws shoppers of all sorts from all over NI, to shop in the same shops at the same time, yet it doesn't do anything to break down the barriers which we know all exist.

P.S. On a point of information, there is no way significant public money would go towards redeveloping Windsor whilst it remains in the ownership of Linfield (nor should it, imo). As it happens, Linfield are reasonably keen to sell Windsor and move to a smaller, purpose-built stadium in a location of their own choosing (possibly Newtownabbey?). A major sticking point for the IFA is, however, that they are tied into 80-odd years remaining on a 100 year lease for playing internationals at Windsor and they can't afford to buy themselves out. (This Lease was forced upon the IFA by the Government, by the way :confused:)

[reder]

How far is the Maze from Belfast city centre? How accessible would it be for away fans or even home fans who wish to go to a game using public transport only? What capacity is the proposed new stadium?

[Steve Bruce]

I understand entirely the sentiment behind your post, CRC, but I don't think the Maze will solve the problem of sporting division in NI, because I don't see how/why the Ulster rugby crowd trooping out to the Maze on a Friday evening, followed by the NI crowd attending on a Saturday afternoon, followed by the GAA crowd watching a game on Sunday afternoon will change the attitudes or demographics of the three sports' respective fanbases. Why should it? Am I really going to change my current apathy towards GAA, and lukewarm interest in rugby into something more concrete merely because
they occasionally share a stadium on different days, at different times of the year?

Not only will a shared stadium not do anything for the problem but if anything, it will merely make things worse, since if it is the wrong design of stadium, in the wrong location, with hopelessly inadequate infrastructure, it will deter the more casual supporters amongst all three codes from attending their own preferred sport. This will then just leave the "hardcore" fans, who almost by definition, show the least crossover to other sports anyhow.

As an analogy, the nearby Sprucefield Shopping Centre draws shoppers of all sorts from all over NI, to shop in the same shops at the same time, yet it doesn't do anything to break down the barriers which we know all exist.

P.S. On a point of information, there is no way significant public money would go towards redeveloping Windsor whilst it remains in the ownership of Linfield (nor should it, imo). As it happens, Linfield are reasonably keen to sell Windsor and move to a smaller, purpose-built stadium in a location of their own choosing (possibly Newtownabbey?). A major sticking point for the IFA is, however, that they are tied into 80-odd years remaining on a 100 year lease for playing internationals at Windsor and they can't afford to buy themselves out. (This Lease was forced upon the IFA by the Government, by the way :confused:)

Can I ask, what difference it makes taht the ground is owned by Linfield? Cliftonville has a brand spanking new stand built for them with government grants, they are going to be building another great wee stand with government grants.

Portadown are waiting for money to be released by the Government to start work on there stand as well.

What is the difference? It isn't a sh1t stirring question, I genuinely like to know why Linfield should be treated differently

[Steve Bruce]

How far is the Maze from Belfast city centre? How accessible would it be for away fans or even home fans who wish to go to a game using public transport only? What capacity is the proposed new stadium?

It's around 18 miles I think. The Sands Siro Capacity is 35,000. At present, there are no rail links, airports, boatlinks, no regular bus service. It hasn't got much/any infrustucture.

[EalingGreen]

Can I ask, what difference it makes taht the ground is owned by Linfield? Cliftonville has a brand spanking new stand built for them with government grants, they are going to be building another great wee stand with government grants.

Portadown are waiting for money to be released by the Government to start work on there stand as well.

What is the difference? It isn't a sh1t stirring question, I genuinely like to know why Linfield should be treated differently


Linfield are a private company, who currently receive a lucrative rent from their tenant, the IFA. Fair play to them, I say, for having the foresight and wherewithal for building Windsor in the first place, otherwise the IFA would have had to build their own stadium, or been homeless.

However, that was in the past and since they are presently (and understandably) unwilling/unable to maintain the stadium to new international standards, why should the Government give millions of taxpayers' money, destined for the benefit of the whole of soccer in NI, to just one club, to build what would effectively be a brand-new stadium, yet allow it to remain in Linfield's ownership? What would Linfield be "bringing to the party" with such an arrangement?

Fair enough, they would be allowing games to be staged, but they receive rent from the IFA for that on a per match basis.

In the end, if the Government is going to build a new stadium for NI, they should retain ownership of that stadium on behalf of NI. Which would mean that if it is to be located at Windsor, it is only proper that they pay Linfield a fair price for what is a valuable site, so that Linfield can then go away and build the stadium they need, in the location they prefer (which, I understand, is their preferred option anyhow).

Otherwise, if the Government don't buy the site from them, the only way Linfield can realise its development value will be by knocking it down and selling it for retail/housing etc.

Or would you have it the other way: i.e. the Government pays for a stadium, but someone else continues to own it? I'd love it if they came round and redeveloped my house for me, then handed me the keys back, but I doubt it, somehow.

P.S. I don't know how much Cliftonville are getting to do up Solitude to IL standards, but not only will it be dwarfed by the tens of millions necessary to do up Windsor to international standard, but I expect it is coming out of an NI-wide "pot", from which Linfield, Portadown and every other IL club are equally entitled to apply for a grant.

[Dassa]

I am all in favour of a stadium in Belfast, I believe that the independent report by the university of ulster will support this when released today. I cant however support throwing any more money at Windsor park. The stadium isnt cut out for future international football. I say this having spent some of my greatest sporting moments sitting in the stadium,but I believe that we have to move on for the benifit of the country.

thought Id add this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6221154.stm

[Graemerz]

I'll post what I have posted on ILF

"Right I've read this thread and listened, half heartedly, to the National Stadium debate. My understanding is that the government will release £160 million for the Maze stadium.


The Marketing Director, Windsor Roar, has a profitable solution for Northern Ireland. Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.


That leaves £100 million surplus for health, education, roads, environment or whatever! Everybodys happy .....................................except Edwin Comelately!!!


My proposals are not "rocket science" but you all know it makes sense! "

Hear what you are saying, only thing I don't agree on is giving £20 million towards Casement Park when it will never be used for "big" games. Completely pointless. Windsor is the perfect location for sport in Northern Ireland, they should put all the money into Windsor and Ulster Rugby can begin to play here too. :cool:

[Steve Bruce]

Linfield are a private company, who currently receive a lucrative rent from their tenant, the IFA. Fair play to them, I say, for having the foresight and wherewithal for building Windsor in the first place, otherwise the IFA would have had to build their own stadium, or been homeless.

We are not a private company, we are a club. It is run by boardmembers voted on by members who are normal supporters.

However, that was in the past and since they are presently (and understandably) unwilling/unable to maintain the stadium to new international standards, why should the Government give millions of taxpayers' money, destined for the benefit of the whole of soccer in NI, to just one club, to build what would effectively be a brand-new stadium, yet allow it to remain in Linfield's ownership? What would Linfield be "bringing to the party" with such an arrangement?

We would be bringing the land in which the Government wouldn't need to pay for. Also in regards to rent, we only get 15% of the revenue. If NI gets big crowds and a lot of money, they have to pay us a good amount. If they get small crowds, then we only receive a small amount.

Fair enough, they would be allowing games to be staged, but they receive rent from the IFA for that on a per match basis.


In the end, if the Government is going to build a new stadium for NI, they should retain ownership of that stadium on behalf of NI. Which would mean that if it is to be located at Windsor, it is only proper that they pay Linfield a fair price for what is a valuable site, so that Linfield can then go away and build the stadium they need, in the location they prefer (which, I understand, is their preferred option anyhow).

That would suit Linfield down to teh ground. Windsor sits on land worth 40+ million.

Otherwise, if the Government don't buy the site from them, the only way Linfield can realise its development value will be by knocking it down and selling it for retail/housing etc.

We will also get a substancial pay off for breaking the contract. We are due to be gettings 15% of 10 million over the next 4 years in TV money alone. So how much should we expect for the IFA to buy out the 80 years left on the contract. A substancial 8 figure sum cannot be out of the question.

Or would you have it the other way: i.e. the Government pays for a stadium, but someone else continues to own it? I'd love it if they came round and redeveloped my house for me, then handed me the keys back, but I doubt it, somehow.

Would still be cheaper than to hand over half a billion worth of land to a private developer(see belfast telegraph)

P.S. I don't know how much Cliftonville are getting to do up Solitude to IL standards, but not only will it be dwarfed by the tens of millions necessary to do up Windsor to international standard, but I expect it is coming out of an NI-wide "pot", from which Linfield, Portadown and every other IL club are equally entitled to apply for a grant.




Answers in bold.

Don't get me wrong, I want the IFA out of Windsor, if we get what is owed to us. It is better for Linfield. But as a Northern Ireland fan, I am against the Sands Siro Maze stadium.

[BohsPartisan]

but neither would be the status quo with corporate boxes.

http://www.supanet.com/media/00/07/83/statusquo_430.jpg

[crc]

http://www.supanet.com/media/00/07/83/statusquo_430.jpg
:eek: Wow, that's witty! :rolleyes:

[waide]

Am i the only blueman and N I supporter that thinks the Maze is the right location for the new stadium?we have to be honest and realise that Windsor is a non starter and i honestly believe that N I will get good support from mid Ulster and beyond as it will be handier for these supporters,and after all it is only 10 mins from Belfast.i also feel that if this drags on much longer there is a real danger of the gov losing patience and withdrawing funding for this project.

[Steve Bruce]

Am i the only blueman and N I supporter that thinks the Maze is the right location for the new stadium?we have to be honest and realise that Windsor is a non starter and i honestly believe that N I will get good support from mid Ulster and beyond as it will be handier for these supporters,and after all it is only 10 mins from Belfast.i also feel that if this drags on much longer there is a real danger of the gov losing patience and withdrawing funding for this project.


I believe you are:D

[BohsPartisan]

:eek: Wow, that's witty! :rolleyes:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/153/3825~National-Sarcasm-Society-Posters.jpg

[Steve Bruce]

Paisley says No to Belfast Stadium at Ormeau.

Poots says Maze is the only Viable site.

Nigel Dodds says No to the Maze site due to the "Terrorist IRA Shrine"(H Block) will still remain.

DUP giving out mixed messages.

[crc]

Paisley says No to Belfast Stadium...

Nigel Dodds says No to the Maze site...

DUP giving out mixed messages.
Seems pretty consistent to me, haven't the DUP been saying No to everything over the last 40 years? ;)

[Steve Bruce]

Seems pretty consistent to me, haven't the DUP been saying No to everything over the last 40 years? ;)

Not these days. Say yes is their new motto.

[rebelarmyexile]

what are the transport links to the maze area like? sounds about as sensible as the Bertie Bowl in Abbotstown.

tho i do pity you guys having to shack up with those biggots in the GAaaaaa, they seem even worse up north.

[Steve Bruce]

what are the transport links to the maze area like? sounds about as sensible as the Bertie Bowl in Abbotstown.

tho i do pity you guys having to shack up with those biggots in the GAaaaaa, they seem even worse up north.

So they are.

When the vote went in for the use of 'foreign' sports on Croke Park, every one of Northern Irelands GAA counties/clubs/whatever voted against it.

The attitude of the Northern GAA teams is probably the reason for most Unionist peoples contempt towards them. They are definately stuck in the 1920s.

[rebelarmyexile]

So they are.

When the vote went in for the use of 'foreign' sports on Croke Park, every one of Northern Irelands GAA counties/clubs/whatever voted against it.

The attitude of the Northern GAA teams is probably the reason for most Unionist peoples contempt towards them. They are definately stuck in the 1920s.

Agrees wholeheartedly.

Though the only GAA branch in the Republic to vote against opening Croker was the Cork branch with Frank "Bigot" Murphy. the man who said in the early 90's that "never will a ball pumped up with British poison ever touch the hallowed turf of paric ui Criomh (in cork)

[SolitudeRed]

To be honest I don't know if the GAA will ever use this stadium if they are as puritanical as you have suggested as they will not want to share with 'foreign games' I seem to remember that they took a long time to agree to using it and they were put under a lot of pressure to agree to it as the powers that be wanted to make this stadium have support from all sections of the community.


The attitude of the Northern GAA teams is probably the reason for most Unionist peoples contempt towards them. They are definately stuck in the 1920s.

Unfortunately the allegation of being stuck in the past could be said of many individuals/groups/institutions in the North despite the progress that is being made!

[Steve Bruce]

To be honest I don't know if the GAA will ever use this stadium if they are as puritanical as you have suggested as they will not want to share with 'foreign games' I seem to remember that they took a long time to agree to using it and they were put under a lot of pressure to agree to it as the powers that be wanted to make this stadium have support from all sections of the community.


The rule as far as I know is that no foreign sports are to be played in a GAA ground.

The GAA has no rules stating that the GAA couldn't play in a foreign sports ground.



Unfortunately the allegation of being stuck in the past could be said of many individuals/groups/institutions in the North despite the progress that is being made!

The thing is though we are not talking about other individuals/groups/institutions. We are talking about the GAA. I do not see how and why people excuse the GAA or any institution by saying 'they are not the only ones'

So what? Surely if anyone is stuck in the past and still have their hardened narrow views they should be condemned. Not let off because some other institution is can be accused of the same thing:rolleyes:

[AnnaghRed]

Sale of the land at the Maze would fund the upgrading of Windsor, Casement and Ravenhill....but that would make too much sense.

Ideally the IFA would buy Windsor off Linfield, but i cant see that happening.

Maze Stadium will be a total disaster, and for that reason alone I think it will definitely go ahead.

[Steve Bruce]

Sale of the land at the Maze would fund the upgrading of Windsor, Casement and Ravenhill....but that would make too much sense.

Ideally the IFA would buy Windsor off Linfield, but i cant see that happening.

Maze Stadium will be a total disaster, and for that reason alone I think it will definitely go ahead.

Linfield would love the IFA to buy Windsor off us if the following conditions apply.


1) 1000 year lease paying £1 a week
2) IFA keeps the stadium up to standard themselves.
3) We get the market value for the ground the stadium sits on
I know seems very far fetched, but then they did sign a 99 year contract with us before :D

Or

1) They buy the stadium off us for Market value
2) They buy us out of the remainder of the contract

[gspain]

Agrees wholeheartedly.

Though the only GAA branch in the Republic to vote against opening Croker was the Cork branch with Frank "Bigot" Murphy. the man who said in the early 90's that "never will a ball pumped up with British poison ever touch the hallowed turf of paric ui Criomh (in cork)

I know I'm nitpicking but Mongahan also joined the great combover on the bigots side of the house. They even voted on the matter unlike Frank who was so scared that the great gaels in the People's Republic would allow the devil into Croke Park they he found a technicality to decide that Cork should just vote NO without a vote on the matter.

As for the site itself out of town stadia are generally a bad idea in terms of access and atmosphere.

[eelmonster]

As for the site itself out of town stadia are generally a bad idea in terms of access and atmosphere.


Not in the case of Stade de France - to name but one out of town stadium. A direct rail link to the Maze would mean a journey time of around 10 mins from Belfast city centre. The RER and metro out to the Stade de France can take up to 20mins; and the atmosphere there - for rugby internationals in particular, which attract supporters from well outside of the Ile-de-France - can be overwhelming.

[gspain]

Not in the case of Stade de France - to name but one out of town stadium. A direct rail link to the Maze would mean a journey time of around 10 mins from Belfast city centre. The RER and metro out to the Stade de France can take up to 20mins; and the atmosphere there - for rugby internationals in particular, which attract supporters from well outside of the Ile-de-France - can be overwhelming.

I've only been there for football. It is an impressive stadium. Atmosphere was OK but we did have 40,000 away fans there. I've witnessed a hell of a lot better though. It is a terrible location and no prematch atmosphere. In many respects it is also still in Paris albeit in a drab suburb.

The Maze is really out in the sticks. there is nothing else there. I can't see a rail link being cost effective. you would also need pubs, hotels etc in the area to make

Lansdowne road and Croke Park in Dublin are in ideal locations. The Milenium Stadium in Cardiff is ideal also. There must be options in Belfast city centre.

[EalingGreen]

Not in the case of Stade de France - to name but one out of town stadium. A direct rail link to the Maze would mean a journey time of around 10 mins from Belfast city centre. The RER and metro out to the Stade de France can take up to 20mins; and the atmosphere there - for rugby internationals in particular, which attract supporters from well outside of the Ile-de-France - can be overwhelming.

The Stade de France has been severely criticised in France for its location and inaccessibility, despite the French government spending a fortune on rail links etc. Indeed, Paris St. Germain resisted fierce pressure to move to the SDF from Parc des Princes. Moreover, it is unlikely that this is because the capacity of the SDF is too large, since the new owners have announced they plan to expand the capacity of PDP to over 100,000!

As for the Maze, Northern Ireland Rail has no budget for a rail link, it has no plans for a rail link and nobody (even from amongst the Government backers of the Maze) has announced any intention of providing any budget to NIR to fund the rail link.

And even if that were to change (highly unlikely when the cost of the whole project is already in excess of £100m, before slippage), NIR has fewer than 30 train sets in the whole of Northern Ireland. Therefore, even if they were to cancel every other train service in the country for four hours around a match(!), they still could only physically move around 10% of the stadium capacity! Plus, of course, this is totally irrelevant to the majority population of NI who live nowhere near a rail station to connect them to the single line which runs at its nearest to a point 2-3 km from the Maze, from where everyone would have to get a bus, or walk... :eek:

Anyhow, here is an extract from a Paper compiled by the Amalgamation of NI Supporters Clubs:

Transport

“Roads Service is already spending £30-50million upgrading roads in the area whether the stadium goes ahead or not. It isn’t an extra cost”

Tony Whitehead, SIB

The Belfast Metropolitan Transport Plan (BMTP) and The Regional Strategic Transport Network Transport Plan (RSTNTP) set out what will be needed and what is desired for transport in the Greater Belfast area. Both focus on the need for more integrated transport and for the need for people to have more travel options, e.g. walking and cycle routes.

What’s transport like to Belfast?

The M1, M2, M3, M5 and major ‘A roads’ all meet in central Belfast. All rail lines lead to Belfast. More bus routes facilitate Belfast than anywhere else in Northern Ireland. Two airports and the sea port also serve the city. Belfast truly is the transport hub for Northern Ireland.

And to the Maze?

The Maze was a good location for a prison. In a rural location, 3km from the nearest city, it lies beside the M1 but has no junction onto it. With no rail link (and none planned) it will rely on visitors coming by car or coach and the need for a junction to be added.



How much will transport upgrades cost?

Any junction will cost around £20million and is not included in the current Roads Service construction plans.Tony Whitehead also said that a link road was to be constructed, which would enable greater access to the site from the North West. Again, this road is only dependent on private development in the area and “(private) developers will be responsible for funding the scheme either in full or in a very substantial part”. This is estimated at £11.8million and the cost will have to be met by the developer.

For a stadium at the Maze then, additional road infrastructure will cost at least another £30million – is this to be added to the £85million that it is costing so far taking the cost beyond £115million? Roads Service is not spending this money already as Mr. Whitehead claimed. Also, these roads costs are only estimates at a 2003 level – the actual cost may be much higher by the time development starts in 2007.

In contrast, proposed locations in Belfast are already well served by road, rail and bus. The City Airport is 1km from the Titanic Quarter; 2km from Maysfield and Ormeau Park; and approximately 4km from the North Foreshore.

The Port of Belfast is even closer as are rail and bus interchanges. Any transport upgrades for Belfast already have budgets allocated, including the widening of the Sydenham Bypass to three lanes in either direction, making that site even more plausible.

How will we get to the Maze?

The Regional Development Strategy states that in 1999, 30% of the population did not have a car – with public transport non-existent to the Maze, how are any of these people supposed to get there?

It is unlikely that public transport will bring people to the Maze without going via Belfast or other neighbouring transport hubs. Will buses depart from the Maze stadium after a midweek match to the furthest corners of the province? If people have to connect via Belfast etc, it may be too late to get home if they live far away.

The Government has highlighted the need for greater access to major facilities for pedestrians and cyclists. These would exist in Belfast but it is very hard to see how pedestrians will access the Maze site without a long journey beforehand.

Even if public transport is arranged to the Maze, it cannot get 40,000 people to a single site outside Belfast. With trains running 2-3km away, scores of buses would be needed to take fans to the stadium site. Add these to the thousands trying to get into the site in cars and mass congestion is sure to follow. Leaving afterwards will be a similar nightmare and visions of mile long queues of cars can evoke the ‘tail-gate’ culture at out-of-town US stadiums.

Government transport policy actively encourages alternatives to private car use. The new stadium proposal runs contrary to this.

‘But it’s only the same distance as Trafalgar Square is to Wembley!’

The major difference is that Wembley is not in a rural location with one main road in and one out. It is well served by multiple road, rail and bus routes. London is a large metropolis with a long history of staging major events and handling huge volumes of traffic and people. Few cities in the world can cope with events such as the Olympics, but London’s recent successful tender highlights it’s preeminence amongst cities globally. To compare a regional city is facetious.

As for Wembley, if the example is being given by Government, why aren’t we getting the same level of public transport investment?

To facilitate the journeys of spectators, £70m is being invested to ensure visitors to Wembley can move smoothly and safely to and from the stations. There will be 100 trains moving 37,500 people per hour on event days.

The Government is not planning for this here. The RSNTP allocates £10.1million for inter city bus routes until 2015. This is for all of Northern Ireland yet it is only a fraction of the money being spent to bring 21st Century public transport to the new stadium at Wembley.

[SolitudeRed]

The thing is though we are not talking about other individuals/groups/institutions. We are talking about the GAA. I do not see how and why people excuse the GAA or any institution by saying 'they are not the only ones'

So what? Surely if anyone is stuck in the past and still have their hardened narrow views they should be condemned. Not let off because some other institution is can be accused of the same thing:rolleyes:

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

[AnnaghRed]

We get the market value for the ground the stadium sits on

They buy the stadium off us for Market value
They buy us out of the remainder of the contract

Dont think the IFA could afford the purchase of Windsor without a government hand-out, but reckon it would be cheaper in the long run than building a ground in Moira, that will very rarely be half full.

Personally speaking, the majority of my best footballing moments have involved a win at Windsor, and i'd hate to see its demise.

Despite it's proximity to the village area, the South, Kop and North stands - ie 95% of the ground - are all accessible from the neutral Boucher Road.

[EalingGreen]

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

Fair point, well made (imo)

[EalingGreen]

Dont think the IFA could afford the purchase of Windsor without a government hand-out, but reckon it would be cheaper in the long run than building a ground in Moira, that will very rarely be half full.

Personally speaking, the majority of my best footballing moments have involved a win at Windsor, and i'd hate to see its demise.

Despite it's proximity to the village area, the South, Kop and North stands - ie 95% of the ground - are all accessible from the neutral Boucher Road.

Ditto.

Ditto.

Ditto. On this last, the fact that Cliftonville chose to play their Intertoto match at Windsor last week shows that its location can't hold that many fears for football fans from other (Nationalist) areas of the city.

[gspain]

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

The fiasco of the Maze is not the GAA's doing. However there is key difference between GAA bigotry and the bigotry of some Irish League fans. The GAA actively promote bigotry from the very highest level. Clubs, grounds, cups etc are named after convicted terrorists in a move designed to give 2 fingers to the unionist communities.

Examples include the Gerard and Martin Harte memorial cup for 11 yearolds in Tyrone, the volunteer paddy kelly cup, the Hunger striker tournaments in Belfast and Kevin Lynch GAA club playing at Kevin Lynch GAA grounds. GAA president Nicky Brennan took a sunday out in July last year at the height of the GAA season to officiate at the opening that included a paramilitary style parade.

Note the is also a Hunger striker football tournament in Belfast but this does not have IFA sanction and does not involve any clubs affiliated to the IFA.

[Steve Bruce]

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

I'm not saying every single person in GAA is a bigot. But the organisation in Northern Ireland as a whole is. The overwhelming majority showed their narrow minded, dated views.

IL football does have it problems, we know that. We admit to that and we are trying to erradicate that. GAA in Northern Ireland are not making any strides towards the acceptance of other cultures.

[SolitudeRed]

Well most GAA people I know are from the south only a couple from up here and even then I don't them that well! Interesting what was said there about the cups but I pretty sure that Kevin Lynch was GAA player with the team from his hometown.

I wonder do the PSNI GAA team play in any of the above mentioned trophies? I very much doubt it:)

Getting back to the Maze debacle I seen the new IFA president on the UTV sports show yesterday talking about how a revamped windsor would be his prefered option, which could make things even more interesting!

[gspain]

Well most GAA people I know are from the south only a couple from up here and even then I don't them that well! Interesting what was said there about the cups but I pretty sure that Kevin Lynch was GAA player with the team from his hometown.

I wonder do the PSNI GAA team play in any of the above mentioned trophies? I very much doubt it:)

Getting back to the Maze debacle I seen the new IFA president on the UTV sports show yesterday talking about how a revamped windsor would be his prefered option, which could make things even more interesting!

AFAIK Kevin Lynch's GAA highlights were being captain of a Derry U16 hurling team that beat Armagh in some sort of an All Ireland trophy and being a sub on a Dungiven team that lost a county final. I think it is fair comment to say that it was his exploits in the "struggle for national liberation" rather than on the GAA field that led to the club being called after him. It is of course still official GAA policy to "support the struggle for national liberation" and the last attempt to change this to the "unarmed struggle for national liberation" was overwhelmingly defeated at congress in 1980.

I very much doubt if the PSNI compete for any of those trophies. If the GAA do ever decide to reach out to the unionist community some of them may have an issue with the names of the trophies. However considering the last protestant to win an All Ireland was on the Cavan gaelic team of 1933 I don't think they need to worry too much. The next one will probably be on the next Cavan team to win an All Ireland ......in hurling!!!!!

As for the topic on hand I think a revamped Windsor makes a lot more sense however it will come down to finances.

[Steve Bruce]

The Police GAA side, played in 1 friendly AFAIK. I don't think they are a bonefide team.

[geysir]

It is of course still official GAA policy to "support the struggle for national liberation" and the last attempt to change this to the "unarmed struggle for national liberation" was overwhelmingly defeated at congress in 1980.
I note that you are no longer throwing mud at the Antrim GAA Committee.

The official guide of the GAA
Basic Aim
"The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes."

Non-Party Political/Non-Sectarian
"(a)The Association shall be non-party political. Party
political questions shall not be discussed at its
meetings, and no Committee, Club, Council or
representative thereof shall take part, as such, in any
party political movement. A penalty of up to twenty
four weeks suspension may be imposed for
infringement."
(b)"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Yet again we have an attempt after producing a featherweight casebook of evidence from which is delivered the damning fire and brimstone verdict against the entire GAA.
Rational people consider the weight and import of evidence.

The GAA in this matter has declared that Belfast is out as a location for a stadium. Any of the 3 organizations can veto a location.
Is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly giving offence to the other sporting organizations.

[gspain]

Yet again we have an attempt after producing a featherweight casebook of evidence from which is delivered the damning fire and brimstone verdict against the entire GAA.
Rational people consider the weight and import of evidence.

.

Big deal the GAA claims to be non sectarian. So do the IRA btw as do the Loyalist terrorists. The facts say otherwise and the evidence is far from featherweight. Maybe you'd care to examine the facts and dispute them them rather than attack the messenger.