Maze stadium plan 'will proceed'

[Soko]

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

[Steve Bruce]

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

Do you honestly think REAL international Rugby would be played in Northern Ireland?

If we built a 90,000 stadium better than Wembley, better than Croke and better than the new Lansdown. Internationals would still be in Dublin.

Saying that I have a real chip on my shoulder with Ireland Rugby team.

They play the Irish National anthem because the match is in the Republic, but when an under age international is played in Belfast. The Northern Ireland national anthem isn't played. It's an Irish republic team with the odd Ulsterman in it. But it is not a team that represents the people in all 32 counties.

And this is why you'll never get the people of Northern Ireland to agree on an All-Ireland football team.

They should either play both anthems or none of the two anthems IMO.

But anyway, this is getting completely off topic.

[Steve Bruce]

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

Why not Windsor?

Windsor is in an ideal location. Just off the City center and right next to a motorway. People of the nationalist persuasion can get in via Boucher road end without any problem.(cliftonville used our stadium in europe).

People don't want Windsor because people in the past has smeared it as being sectarian.

[Soko]

They play the Irish National anthem because the match is in the Republic, but when an under age international is played in Belfast. The Northern Ireland national anthem isn't played. It's an Irish republic team with the odd Ulsterman in it. But it is not a team that represents the people in all 32 counties.



Maybe, but the fact there is only the odd Ulsterman in the squad is because they are not good enough. Produce players with quality and they will play.


Define "real" rugby. Whatever stadium will get smaller games, likewise for Thomond. You hardly expect to move all 6 Nations games up to Belfast :rolleyes:

[Soko]

Why not Windsor?

Windsor is in an ideal location. Just off the City center and right next to a motorway. People of the nationalist persuasion can get in via Boucher road end without any problem.(cliftonville used our stadium in europe).

People don't want Windsor because people in the past has smeared it as being sectarian.


Its a ****hole. With all the money being proposed on the Maze, why not level Windsor and start from scratch. Its the best location but needs to be completely redone

[co. down green]

The fiasco of the Maze is not the GAA's doing. However there is key difference between GAA bigotry and the bigotry of some Irish League fans. The GAA actively promote bigotry from the very highest level. Clubs, grounds, cups etc are named after convicted terrorists in a move designed to give 2 fingers to the unionist communities.

Examples include the Gerard and Martin Harte memorial cup for 11 yearolds in Tyrone, the volunteer paddy kelly cup, the Hunger striker tournaments in Belfast and Kevin Lynch GAA club playing at Kevin Lynch GAA grounds. GAA president Nicky Brennan took a sunday out in July last year at the height of the GAA season to officiate at the opening that included a paramilitary style parade.

Note the is also a Hunger striker football tournament in Belfast but this does not have IFA sanction and does not involve any clubs affiliated to the IFA.


The IFA failed to take any action against Glentoran when it held a minute's silence for the PUP leader David Ervine last season.

The PUP are after all the political wing of the UVF and the fact they were playing Cliftonville at the Oval made made it all the more obnoxious.

[geysir]

Big deal the GAA claims to be non sectarian. So do the IRA btw as do the Loyalist terrorists. The facts say otherwise and the evidence is far from featherweight. Maybe you'd care to examine the facts and dispute them them rather than attack the messenger.
I am tired of recycled dogmas no matter from what "side" more especially when they are shoved in at unrelated times.
I examine the facts, not a knee jerk reaction to a fact or supposed fact to support a prejudice.

"Big deal"
The official guide is the authority, it counters the mud that the GAA had taken a clear stand to support (armed) liberation.

Whereas you appear to be stuck in the past, the political situation in NI has moved on.
Not only to the point of the NI Assembly but also to the situ where there is a novel/revolutionary/naive/unworkable but active proposal for groundsharing a stadium, in of all places the Maze.
The question I asked first was, is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly, giving offence to the other sporting organizations?

[EalingGreen]

The IFA failed to take any action against Glentoran when it held a minute's silence for the PUP leader David Ervine last season.

The PUP are after all the political wing of the UVF and the fact they were playing Cliftonville at the Oval made made it all the more obnoxious.

Presumably Glentoran will argue that Ervine had served his time for his former crimes and had since unequivocally renounced violence and worked for peace. Further, a minutes silence is hardly the same as a tangible and permanent memorial like a club, cup or stadium name. As such, it may be thought justified to remember someone who, as well as being a democratically elected representative, was also a well-known Glens fan.

By contrast, those "honoured" with permanent memorials by the GAA were actively engaged in a terrorist campaign, often with criminal convictions, at the time of their death. They did not have an electoral mandate, nor can we know whether they would have repented like Ervine did, had they lived.

Having said all that, as a Glens fan myself I personally think the club was wrong to do what it did, at least at so sensitive an occasion as a Cliftonville game. :(

[EalingGreen]

The question I asked first was, is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly, giving offence to the other sporting organizations?


Whilst there is a great deal I could criticise the GAA for, that is for another day. I personally feel that on the subject of the Maze, they cannot be condemned for their public* stance, at least, since they are only looking out for their own interests. (Indeed, they are to be admired for cleverly managing their business in the first place, so that they can negotiate from a position of strength)

As such, I actually blame the Government for the way it framed the "rules", whereby all three sports had to be on board, otherwise there would be no money for any stadium. Theoretically this gave each sport a "veto" over the project, but it is obvious to everyone that this is not the case.

The IFA is in no position to deny the Government its pet project, since it's skint. And rugby doesn't give a damn, since it will hardly ever play there; in the meantime, however, they'll go along with it so as not to jeopardise a Government grant to renovate Ravenhill. This leaves the GAA in a position to dominate the whole scheme as to location, capacity etc, since it has got an adequate alternative even if the stadium is never built.


* - I say "public", since there is anecdotal evidence from leading GAA figure, Jarlath Burns, that a behind-the-scenes deal was agreed between the GAA and Sinn Fein, whereby the GAA would support the Maze (desired by SF for the memorial/museum aspect), in return for SF not intervening publicly in the debate over Rule 21/opening Croke Park to soccer and rugby.

[co. down green]

Presumably Glentoran will argue that Ervine had served his time for his former crimes and had since unequivocally renounced violence and worked for peace. Further, a minutes silence is hardly the same as a tangible and permanent memorial like a club, cup or stadium name. As such, it may be thought justified to remember someone who, as well as being a democratically elected representative, was also a well-known Glens fan.

By contrast, those "honoured" with permanent memorials by the GAA were actively engaged in a terrorist campaign, often with criminal convictions, at the time of their death. They did not have an electoral mandate, nor can we know whether they would have repented like Ervine did, had they lived.

Having said all that, as a Glens fan myself I personally think the club was wrong to do what it did, at least at so sensitive an occasion as a Cliftonville game. :(


The families of the young protestant men murdered by the UVF over the last ten years would tend not to share Glentoran's view of Mr Ervine. I am close to one such family and they were distraught when they watched the Irvine tribute on the news.

They saw no repentance from Irvine or the PUP/UVF during their sorrow.

[geysir]

Presumably Glentoran will argue that Ervine had served his time for his former crimes and had since unequivocally renounced violence and worked for peace. Further, a minutes silence is hardly the same as a tangible and permanent memorial like a club, cup or stadium name. As such, it may be thought justified to remember someone who, as well as being a democratically elected representative, was also a well-known Glens fan.

By contrast, those "honoured" with permanent memorials by the GAA were actively engaged in a terrorist campaign, often with criminal convictions, at the time of their death. They did not have an electoral mandate, nor can we know whether they would have repented like Ervine did, had they lived.

Having said all that, as a Glens fan myself I personally think the club was wrong to do what it did, at least at so sensitive an occasion as a Cliftonville game. :(
I don't know that much about Irvine but from what I heard from him after the ceasefire he always sounded articulate, sensible and positive. I wouldn't regard a minutes silence to such a fan as insensitive but in a way its also a tribute to man who seriously shifted and contributed hugely to the peace process.

One hick hurling club is named after Kevin Lynch.
GSpain use to claim that loads of pitches are named after IRA men, well there is one named after an INLA member. Unless maybee we should consider those pitches or clubs named after those nefarious terrorists such as Sarsfield, Fiach O'Byrne etc.
Maybee Kevin Lynch was, as is recorded, an exceptional upstanding skillfull GAA lad with leadership qualities before being sucked into the Diplock Court system age 19. I don't know. I don't see any record of other clubs named after hunger strikers or modern era republicans. Maybee the club members debated the issue thoroughly, considering all the angles. I don't know.


My own GAA club in Ulster (named after a 1916 leader) is too busy building up its facilities and as with other sporting codes activly getting young kids away from destructive social habits, the big issue of the day and the primary motivation with many of the parents involved.
All shades of political, non political are involved activly. The clear uniquivical guideline is that everybodies baggage is left at the door.
I have attended many intercounty games and club games in Ulster. Some of the fiercest rivals in bruising games witnessed by a non segregated and non violent family orientated attendance in full sporting spirit.

BTW anybody can organise a private invitation tournament.

[EalingGreen]

The families of the young protestant men murdered by the UVF over the last ten years would tend not to share Glentoran's view of Mr Ervine. I am close to one such family and they were distraught when they watched the Irvine tribute on the news.

They saw no repentance from Irvine or the PUP/UVF during their sorrow.

Other than I feel that Ervine genuinely did come to repent his actions (unlike his erstwhile UVF colleagues), I don't disagree with the tone of what you say. That is why I said the club was wrong to do what it did.

[SolitudeRed]

See Edwin Poots is coming under criticism from those from within his own party over his backing of the Maze!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6269424.stm

[gspain]

One hick hurling club is named after Kevin Lynch.
GSpain use to claim that loads of pitches are named after IRA men, well there is one named after an INLA member. Unless maybee we should consider those pitches or clubs named after those nefarious terrorists such as Sarsfield, Fiach O'Byrne etc.
Maybee Kevin Lynch was, as is recorded, an exceptional upstanding skillfull GAA lad with leadership qualities before being sucked into the Diplock Court system age 19. I don't know. I don't see any record of other clubs named after hunger strikers or modern era republicans. Maybee the club members debated the issue thoroughly, considering all the angles. I don't know.


My own GAA club in Ulster (named after a 1916 leader) is too busy building up its facilities and as with other sporting codes activly getting young kids away from destructive social habits, the big issue of the day and the primary motivation with many of the parents involved.
All shades of political, non political are involved activly. The clear uniquivical guideline is that everybodies baggage is left at the door.
I have attended many intercounty games and club games in Ulster. Some of the fiercest rivals in bruising games witnessed by a non segregated and non violent family orientated attendance in full sporting spirit.

BTW anybody can organise a private invitation tournament.

Perhaps you will provide the quotes where I made the claims. You continue to ignore the facts I state - truth hurts does it.

It is official GAA policy since 1979 that the organisation "supports the struggle for national liberation". A motion to amend that to the "unarmed struggle" was overwhelmingly defeated in 1980. If you dispute that can you please provide evidence as to where this motion was overturned. Of course it contradicts the official guide claiming to be non sectarian but those engaged in the "struggle for national liberation" always claimed to be non sectarian.

Many GAA clubs continue to use children to glorify sectarian thugs oops of course not - those "who struggled for national liberation" eg

http://www.gaelsport.com/html/club/newfullstory.jsp?c=612&newsID=13938&p=n

as well as those already mentioned. Maybe your club doesn't get involved in such competitions but many others do. these are sanctioned by the GAA as they are held in official GAA grounds involving official GAA clubs.

As you have failed to contradict my claims re Kevin Lynch's GAA prowess - U16 captain v Armagh in Croke Park in some sort of an All Ireland final and a sub on the beaten dungiven team in a senior county final can you maybe point to other clubs and grounds named after them. I mean none of the guys who made the team for that county final have a club or ground named after them do they? Although given the fact that they only scored 3 points in the final means they probably weren't all that good at GAA not to mind the sectarian thug warming the bench.

Furthermore if Kevin Lynchs are just a "hick hurling" club why did GAA president Nicky Brennan take a sunday out in late July last year to do the honours that included a paramilitary style parade? I'm sure Nicky has opened plenty of grounds but I wonder how many are important enough to have their official openings during the height of the All Ireland season. Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and the head of the GAA Ulster Council Michael Greenan (famous for other comments) were also present.

[geysir]

As I have written I have said that the official guide is the authority, I haven't got a clue about any motions. No definition of any motion passed can contradict the official guide. If there is any dispute with an interpretation the official guide is the authority. The official guide is crystal clear on where the line is drawn.
In Mayo there was some attempt to make a statement or pass a motion on behalf of imprisioned farmers. That was quite rightly prevented with reference to the GAA constitution.
I never set out to contradict anything with Kevin Lynch so there is no failure involved. As I wrote there are other possibilities, I dont know. Far from the claim you once made that many GAA grounds and clubs are named after terrorists we have only one named after a 19 year old Diplock Court convicted republican.
The exception proves the rule.


Maybe your club doesn't get involved in such competitions but many others do. these are sanctioned by the GAA as they are held in official GAA grounds involving official GAA clubs.

Far from the scurillious unsubstantiated claim you once made against the Antrim GAA Board why should any rational person take your magnetiscope obsession with things GAA seriously.
Seems to me that that is a local intrest issue, hardly even GAA county board stuff.
One invitation tournament. Again the exception proves the rule. and even with that one exception the tournament is not being played on GAA grounds again as is right and proper according to the GAA constitution.

Even with that one exception
should Christy Moore and the that toothless guy be regarded as a sectarian bigots for writing songs about the hunger strikers? no I don't think so.

requested quotes to refresh your memory

"Lets just say that many of the top brass in Antrim GAA also struggled for national liberation"

"plus loads of GAA pitches are named after IRA men!!"

re Nicky Brennan, part of his busy schedule is to open clubs, nothing can be read or assumed into that. He opened up my local gaa club revamp that doesnt mean he revealed official GAA sanction on the civil war issue.

[gspain]

As I have written I have said that the official guide is the authority, I haven't got a clue about any motions. No definition of any motion passed can contradict the official guide. If there is any dispute with an interpretation the official guide is the authority. The official guide is crystal clear on where the line is drawn.
In Mayo there was some attempt to make a statement or pass a motion on behalf of imprisioned farmers. That was quite rightly prevented with reference to the GAA constitution.
I never set out to contradict anything with Kevin Lynch so there is no failure involved. As I wrote there are other possibilities, I dont know. Far from the claim you once made that many GAA grounds and clubs are named after terrorists we have only one named after a 19 year old Diplock Court convicted republican.
The exception proves the rule.



Far from the scurillious unsubstantiated claim you once made against the Antrim GAA Board why should any rational person take your magnetiscope obsession with things GAA seriously.
Seems to me that that is a local intrest issue, hardly even GAA county board stuff.
One invitation tournament. Again the exception proves the rule. and even with that one exception the tournament is not being played on GAA grounds again as is right and proper according to the GAA constitution.

Even with that one exception
should Christy Moore and the that toothless guy be regarded as a sectarian bigots for writing songs about the hunger strikers? no I don't think so.

requested quotes to refresh your memory

"Lets just say that many of the top brass in Antrim GAA also struggled for national liberation"

"plus loads of GAA pitches are named after IRA men!!"

re Nicky Brennan, part of his busy schedule is to open clubs, nothing can be read or assumed into that. He opened up my local gaa club revamp that doesnt mean he revealed official GAA sanction on the civil war issue.

The official guide isn't contradicted by the "support for the struggle for national liberation." It was passed at the 1979 congress proposed by Clare. The official guide says the associaition is non sectarian and the IRA/INLA/UVF/UFF et al also claimed to be non sectarian. there were also motions passed at the time supporting the hunger strikers.

It isn't one torunament - there is the Gerard and Martin Harte memorial cup in Tyrone the rpemier under 12 comeptition in the county. The Volunteer Paddy Kelly cup also in Tyrone. You have Cumann na Fuiseoige in Belfast named after Bobby Sands and taking his lark, bardbed wire and H block on its emblem. do you want the Peter Canavan list??? Francie Brolly, IRA Marches at Casement Park.

Can I quote you from the Republican Sinn Fein Website

http://www.rsf.ie/adress01.htm

"No doubt the next demand is already being formulated e.g. that GAA grounds and clubs are no longer named in honour of Irish patriots. Irish nationality must be fully and entirely repudiated. The association must realise where the road they are asked to travel leads and whether they wish to start out on such a journey. Because in the end they must deny that they are Irish. It is time to realise that and to be fully aware of it."

St Teresa's GAA club hold a tournament in memory of the IRA men who died trying to blow up Loughgall.

Drumshanbo's GAA ground is named after Captain Jim Vaugh of the IRA.

Then we have the hunger striker rallies in Casement Park.

Need I go on....but these are all OK because the official guide says the associaition is non sectarian.

[geysir]

You are a gullible glutton for punishment - ploughing a very lonely furrow into the archives of RSF presidential speeches followed by Slugger O´Tool.


Drumshanbo's GAA ground is named after Captain Jim Vaugh of the IRA.
No it is not
Drumshambo's GAA ground is named after Shane McGettigan a county footballer who died young.
It must be 65+ years since Jim Vaugh bit his bullit.

You have Cumann na Fuiseoige in Belfast named after Bobby Sands
No, Skylark does not read Bobby Sands.

Still no furthur progress on the "plus loads of GAA pitches are named after IRA men!!"
Open up a thread in off topic or other sports and I'll see if it is worth my while. That's where people take their baggage and open it up.

[gspain]

You are a gullible glutton for punishment - ploughing a very lonely furrow into the archives of RSF presidential speeches followed by Slugger O´Tool.


No it is not
Drumshambo's GAA ground is named after Shane McGettigan a county footballer who died young.
It must be 65+ years since Jim Vaugh bit his bullit.

No, Skylark does not read Bobby Sands.

Still no furthur progress on the "plus loads of GAA pitches are named after IRA men!!"
Open up a thread in off topic or other sports and I'll see if it is worth my while. That's where people take their baggage and open it up.

I just found out it was renamed in 1999. Good move Drumshanbo. I wish some of the bigots in Northern Ireland would follow suit.

Maybe you can link to the quote anyway where I said loads of grounds.

I have provided loads of examples though where the GAA actively support and promote sectarian terrorists. Now perhaps you'd like to refute these instead of ignoring them.

You still haven't named your club that is only interested in promoting GAA instead of honouring dead terrorists.

So maybe a couple of simple questions now - you claim the GAA does not honour and promote the IRA because the official guide excludes it.

1) Can you please explain where the GAA official guide excludes it from honouring the IRA?

2) Do you see anything wrong with honouring dead IRA men and women (mustn't forget the Mairead Farrell tournament) and in particular do you see anything wrong with using children to do so as many of these involve underage GAA?

[geysir]

GSpain, How much do they pay you for this :)

I am not inclined to follow on to the bait of the more extreme emotional language you are now using.
It is entirely innapropriate in a football forum to descend to this level.
There is little difference in my mind with the prejudices in your posts and the prejudices very apparent in parts of GAA world.

[gspain]

GSpain, How much do they pay you for this :)

I am not inclined to follow on to the bait of the more extreme emotional language you are now using.
It is entirely innapropriate in a football forum to descend to this level.
There is little difference in my mind with the prejudices in your posts and the prejudices very apparent in parts of GAA world.


Still attacking the person and avoiding the facts.

[geysir]

GSpain

Still attacking the person
I made a very clear distinction (which you missed by a country mile) of referring to the prejudiced content of your posts.

You say I'm

avoiding the facts.
you wrote

Drumshanbo's GAA ground is named after Captain Jim Vaugh of the IRA.
only to sneer this after I corrected you

I just found out it was renamed in 1999. Good move Drumshanbo. I wish some of the bigots in Northern Ireland would follow suit.

Prejudice is taking a negative point of view based on a false assumption.

In the context of the overly political, extreme, overly emotive and sneering language that you use, I have never seen a debate on any thread which can continue at that level.
It is the Irish equivalent of Goodwin's law,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law :)
AFAIC the boundaries of even a semblance of rational debate have gone.

Next week will see the Ulster Final in front of a sell out 36,000. More tickets could be sold, espec. seated. This contest will bring the Ulster championship to it's conclusion.
I seriously doubt that ordinary NI soccer or rugby fans would feel in the least way threatened by the political/cultural impact of sharing a stadium with the GAA. I think it would be great if it could work but if it doesn't work the issues that I have read here from NI Fans are about what is best for the supporters and not the issues people have with the GAA.

[gspain]

So I missed the fact that Drumshanbo GAA club renamed its ground after a former player than an IRA man. I wish a few others would follow suit. you still continue to ignore my other points. Given that you were quick to pounce when I didn't realsie one club had ceased to promote terrorism I trust then the others are still correct.

Two simple questions remain ignore

1) Can you please explain where the GAA official guide excludes it from honouring the IRA?

2) Do you see anything wrong with honouring dead IRA men and women (mustn't forget the Mairead Farrell tournament) and in particular do you see anything wrong with using children to do so as many of these involve underage GAA?


As for the Maze I don't think anybody has an issue sharing the stadium and I repeat for the 3rd time nobody is blaming the GAA for this fiasco. The issue here is that the stadium is in clearly the wrong place. Some people also have issues with the stadium site incorporating a shrine to terrorism including I imagine many GAA members (maybe even yourself :p )

[SolitudeRed]

Read in the paper today that a 20,000 seat stadium named after George Best has been proposed for the NI team, it will be built in East Belfast and will also be used as a new ground for Glentoran! That will fairly p**s off Linfield fans if it gets the go ahead!!

[Steve Bruce]

Read in the paper today that a 20,000 seat stadium named after George Best has been proposed for the NI team, it will be built in East Belfast and will also be used as a new ground for Glentoran! That will fairly p**s off Linfield fans if it gets the go ahead!!

I welcome it.

The requirements for Northern Ireland

20,000 Stadium - Check
In Belfast - Check
Football only - Check


As a Linfield supporter, this is great news for a number of reasons.

1) 80 Years of compensation to be paid to us
2) We would then be able to sell our ground and build a much better 12,000 seater stadium that is better suited for our needs.

Windsor Park and the ground behind it(midgley) is all owned by Linfield. This land is worth 10s of millions(talking to a developer not so long ago, he reckons 40 - 60 millions worth, depends on what kind of planning can be got)

So with compo and the sale of our stadium we would be looking in and around 50+ Million for us to build a 12,000 stadium.

Oh and 1 more reason why it would be good. It means we never have to go to the hole that is The Oval.

[Schumi]

The requirements for Northern Ireland...

Football only - CheckWould a ground shared with rugby be such a big problem? I understand not wanting to share with GAA due to the pitch size problem.

[Steve Bruce]

Would a ground shared with rugby be such a big problem? I understand not wanting to share with GAA due to the pitch size problem.

What Rugby would be played on it?

Ulster? If so then that would mean the ground would be cut up to bits as well as having foreign lines on the pitch for when the football is being played.

So really I think a football only ground is the way to go.

[ifk101]

I read on the BBC a month or so ago that the IFA and FAI are planning on making a joint bid for the European U21 Championship in 2011. The North will provide 2 venues as part of the bid, one stadium with a 20,000+ seating capacity and another with a 12,000+ seating capacity. It will be increasing to see what venues are put forward as part of the bid.

[Steve Bruce]

I read on the BBC a month or so ago that the IFA and FAI are planning on making a joint bid for the European U21 Championship in 2011. The North will provide 2 venues as part of the bid, one stadium with a 20,000+ seating capacity and another with a 12,000+ seating capacity. It will be increasing to see what venues are put forward as part of the bid.

Windsor + New stadium.

Linfield wont be moving until we have our compensation and then we have to find a site and purchase it and begin work, before we would ever sell Windsor.

So it will be Windsor and the George Best stadium/The Sands Siro if the Maze gets built.

[old git]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6766289.stm

Well it looks like they are going forward with this regardless of the feeling from NI supporters.

It's going to cost the tax payer over 100 million, when it could cost far less to bring Windsor up to standard.

The location is rubbish to, no infrusture at all. This all has to be built at the expense of tax payers.

Then there is Poots, who ISN'T serving the people of Northern Ireland, he is serving his constituents and his constituents only. He should never have been in this ministerial position where he has obvious vested interests. But then what do we expect from politicians in Northern Ireland.

Our politicians are good at shouting about the Green/Orange part of politics, but when it comes to actually making decisions, they are about as useful ashtray on a bike.

why should windsor park be brought up to standard ... can linfield not help on this ... on the green / orange part of politics lets he honest due to location of windsor park how many catholics would actually go to windsor to watch nothern ireland play.... it is still a no go area for a lot of supporters /... moving to a new location make more sense to try and attrach supporters from all religions to matches unfortunaltly the location may not suit everybody :ball:

[Steve Bruce]

why should windsor park be brought up to standard ... can linfield not help on this ... on the green / orange part of politics lets he honest due to location of windsor park how many catholics would actually go to windsor to watch nothern ireland play.... it is still a no go area for a lot of supporters /... moving to a new location make more sense to try and attrach supporters from all religions to matches unfortunaltly the location may not suit everybody :ball:

As the BBCs report today says, they had a Commercial contract professional look at the Linfield contract and it states that the IFA have to keep the ground up to their requirements. Not Linfield. So that's why.

Also this Windsor Park not in a good location lets get a few things straight here.

Windsor is situated in the Village area of South Belfast. BUT their is an entrance from the Boucher road right down to the ground. So this makes it safe for every tom dick or harry to come down, no matter what persuasion they are from.

And also for Windsor not being safe for the Green side, why have Cliftonville agreed to use Windsor for Europe? Because it is up to standard and it is safe for their supporters to get in and out of the ground.

Why did ST Marys GAA camogie team use Windsor Parks facilities to train? Because Windsor Park had great facilities and Linfield are kind enough to let them use our facilities at no expense of the camogie club. The Camogie club never had 1 pick of bother from the big bad unionists that live around the ground.

Windsor Park is so unsafe that through-out the troubles Cliftonville had to play their home games against Linfield at Windsor, because Windsor was safe and Solitude wasn't.

Would you like me to give you more examples why what you said was pure tripe?

[Graemerz]

Steve the thought of Linfield moving from South Belfast would disappoint me greatly. Ideally Windsor could be rennovated to suit us IF the IFA decide to go down the route of buying out of the contract. Raised stands similar in style to the new stand at Mourneview at both ends and the railway end would suffice, while keeping the Kop the way it is. I'd also do extensive work on Midgely so that it can be used for training all year round.. Maybe we could sell it off to Olympia Leisure Centre and as part of the deal Linfield could use their sports facilities at no cost? Possibilities although I think the IFA will not be leaving Windsor anytime in the near future.

[Steve Bruce]

Steve the thought of Linfield moving from South Belfast would disappoint me greatly. Ideally Windsor could be rennovated to suit us IF the IFA decide to go down the route of buying out of the contract. Raised stands similar in style to the new stand at Mourneview at both ends and the railway end would suffice, while keeping the Kop the way it is. I'd also do extensive work on Midgely so that it can be used for training all year round.. Maybe we could sell it off to Olympia Leisure Centre and as part of the deal Linfield could use their sports facilities at no cost? Possibilities although I think the IFA will not be leaving Windsor anytime in the near future.

I don't think it is feasible to upgrade Windsor and keep us afloat financially.

It would be a very sad day when we leave Windsor, but unfortunately we have to move with the times. Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Southampton etc etc have either got a new stadium or getting a new stadium.

It isn't because we want to leave, it is because of neccesity

I'm sure their are other parts of South Belfast that Linfield can be situated but to be honest, if we leave Windsor, As long as we stay in Belfast, I will be happy. Linfields routes are Sandy Row area but unfortunately Sandy Rows population and support to Linfield has declined massively and it is within Linfields interest to look elsewhere eg Newtownabbey.

[Graemerz]

I don't think it is feasible to upgrade Windsor and keep us afloat financially.

It would be a very sad day when we leave Windsor, but unfortunately we have to move with the times. Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Southampton etc etc have either got a new stadium or getting a new stadium.

It isn't because we want to leave, it is because of neccesity

I'm sure their are other parts of South Belfast that Linfield can be situated but to be honest, if we leave Windsor, As long as we stay in Belfast, I will be happy. Linfields routes are Sandy Row area but unfortunately Sandy Rows population and support to Linfield has declined massively and it is within Linfields interest to look elsewhere eg Newtownabbey.

English clubs are somewhat different because their football has changed dramatically in recent years, no longer is it seen as a "working class" game, it has become "middle-class". I would be surprised if people that went to support the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea 20 years ago can still afford to go today. Their is no soul in their football anymore, therefore they can just go to pastures new, it doesn't make a hint of difference. They'll still have people flocking into their stadiums because of their star status.

Locally though its still very much a working class sport, I feel if Linfield moved out of South Belfast they may lose support... Same can be said to the Glens if they moved out of the East and the International team, if they played outside Belfast but thats no concern of mine.

[gspain]

I think it is perception ratehr than reality these days that makes people think Windsor is unsafe. Certainly the walk through the Village was daunting the 80's and 90's but there are lots of fancy new apartments there now (I assume at fancy prices).

There is still of course the perception and a totally new stadium would help that. however it is difficult in Belfast to get a totally neutral site. I don't know where the proposed George Best Stadium is going to be but East Belfast is hardly neutral either.

Still a ground within walking distance of pubs, retaurants and public transport has got to be better than an out of town white elephant.

[BleusAvantTout]

Also this Windsor Park not in a good location lets get a few things straight here.

Windsor is situated in the Village area of South Belfast. BUT their is an entrance from the Boucher road right down to the ground. So this makes it safe for every tom dick or harry to come down, no matter what persuasion they are from.

And also for Windsor not being safe for the Green side, why have Cliftonville agreed to use Windsor for Europe? Because it is up to standard and it is safe for their supporters to get in and out of the ground.

Why did ST Marys GAA camogie team use Windsor Parks facilities to train? Because Windsor Park had great facilities and Linfield are kind enough to let them use our facilities at no expense of the camogie club. The Camogie club never had 1 pick of bother from the big bad unionists that live around the ground.

Windsor Park is so unsafe that through-out the troubles Cliftonville had to play their home games against Linfield at Windsor, because Windsor was safe and Solitude wasn't.

Would you like me to give you more examples why what you said was pure tripe?

Well said, ..................I couldn't have put it better myself!!;)

[geysir]

So I missed the fact that Drumshanbo GAA club renamed its ground after a former player than an IRA man. I wish a few others would follow suit. you still continue to ignore my other points. Given that you were quick to pounce when I didn't realsie one club had ceased to promote terrorism I trust then the others are still correct.
Others? what others? You have yet to name one other. Already you made 2 wrong calls on that issue. Once you start stumbling over factual accuracy to support accusations, IMO credibility suffers and serious doubts are raised about your interpretation of other facts or so called facts. In other words your interpretations would automatically come in for a degree of scepticism because of proven low standard of research and an easy willingness to accept unsubstantiated facts. These things matter to me.
Yes the Drumbshambo club use to be named after Capt Vaugh, died 76 years ago. Hardly a shrine to terrorism. The name has been changed after a local lad with some (not a lot) GAA prowess who died tragically in the US as well as a competition named after him. IMO that reflects the strong connection between the community and the club and the sense of tragedy. The competition is not on the GAA calender but is organized locally like hundreds or thousands of other competitions.


Two simple questions remain ignored

1) Can you please explain where the GAA official guide excludes it from honouring the IRA?
This is a nonsense Q.
The GAA has no reference at all to honouring the IRA in the official guide. There is no reference at all to armed struggle.

But to give you some help with your fruitless search for other clubs named after IRA men in the last 80 years. I'll give you a clue, there is a club named after a lad called Fergal.

2) Do you see anything wrong with honouring dead IRA men and women (mustn't forget the Mairead Farrell tournament) and in particular do you see anything wrong with using children to do so as many of these involve underage GAA?
I don't see things these days as a right or wrong issue. It's long since I had that frame of mind. In fact so much crap is started by people who think they are right and all justified by being right and blinded by their self- rightuosness.
Many people saw and still see the hunger strikers as a human rights issue, or a political rights issue or a prison torture issue or a determined attempt to crush prisoners. That's their interpretation of those times. I certainly know loads of people who have total respect for the hunger strikers and have no truck at all with violent methods.
That issue was brought to the floor of GAA congress by the Ulster delegates in 1980 or therabouts, Congress side-stepped the division, instead passed the ambigious motion to support the struggle for Independance. I'd imagine as I have stated before that the hunger striker thing is reflective of the local members and probably there is widespread sympathy for the hunger strikers amongst those old enough in the GAA.
There is nothing about the struggle bit in the GAA official guide so personally and everybody I know, think the struggle bit means absolutly feck all. Like a Fianna Fail promise.
I tend to be be cynical about military trappings being used since the GFA. I think there should be a complete lack of celebration of the military side of things. Put a pause on it and look at it again in 10 or 20 years time. Again part of it comes from, we were right to cause the hurt therefore we see no wrong and because we were right no need to be apologetic in any shape or form.

I don't know much about Maread Farrell, I remember the striking pictures of her on lamp posts all over the country, she led the Armagh women in a hunger strike and was famously shot dead in Gibraltar. I'd assume she was regarded with good reason to be a soldier or a military target and therefore shot on sight. Maybe she played Camogie. I'd suspect that the competition if that's what it was, was a Camogie thing. Why should I have any judgement about her?

I don't know about these under age tournaments and a possible negative impact you may infer. I probably played in about 50 or 60 tournaments as a kid and hadn't a clue what they were called or who they were named after.
Maybe you are also alluding to Cumann Fuisoige, set up by a group of gaelic speaking ex-prisoners to help other ex-prisoners with thir issues and who also set up the GAA club and were criticized by the DUP etc for having the crest of the skylark and identifying with Bobby Sands.
So far I have your assumtion that the Cumann is having a negative effect on children as they have also organized tournaments for children.
That's not enough for me, I would have to see evidence that they are having a negative effect on the kids, not just your assumption that this is so. On the other hand, AFAIK, David Irvine was very enthousiastic in his support for them and after a thorough review they received £ tens of thousands of funding from HM Gov.
What ever works in a positive way to get kids off the streets sounds allright. I would hardly imagine that the kids are being drilled in methods of petrol bomb making or 100 ways on how to hate a prod, I don't know but I doubt it.
I would have to see evidence of negative impact not somebodies assumption that it is negative.
In matters like this I usually reserve my ire for communal politicans who do know better but they choose to ferment division, bigotry and intolerance for their own personal political gain.
For children to grow away out of the imposed prejudices, I don't know what effective solutions would be. Banish religion from school management sounds a good start, bussing or integration with enducements. I have not examined that issue at all properly.

[whitewell red]

why should the government give a penny 2 linfield so windsor pk can b upgraded is that not the responsibility off linfield alone.
when was the last time linfield put there hands in to there own pockets to do some work on windsor pk (the property of linfield fc). the ifa is only after spending god knows how much on fixing the roof in the north stand
PS. i believe that all the n.ireland fans that don't want the new stadium to go ahead r all linfield men




I'll post what I have posted on ILF

"Right I've read this thread and listened, half heartedly, to the National Stadium debate. My understanding is that the government will release £160 million for the Maze stadium.


The Marketing Director, Windsor Roar, has a profitable solution for Northern Ireland. Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.


That leaves £100 million surplus for health, education, roads, environment or whatever! Everybodys happy .....................................except Edwin Comelately!!!


My proposals are not "rocket science" but you all know it makes sense! "

[whitewell red]

As the BBCs report today says, they had a Commercial contract professional look at the Linfield contract and it states that the IFA have to keep the ground up to their requirements. Not Linfield. So that's why.

Also this Windsor Park not in a good location lets get a few things straight here.

Windsor is situated in the Village area of South Belfast. BUT their is an entrance from the Boucher road right down to the ground. So this makes it safe for every tom dick or harry to come down, no matter what persuasion they are from.

And also for Windsor not being safe for the Green side, why have Cliftonville agreed to use Windsor for Europe? Because it is up to standard and it is safe for their supporters to get in and out of the ground.

Why did ST Marys GAA camogie team use Windsor Parks facilities to train? Because Windsor Park had great facilities and Linfield are kind enough to let them use our facilities at no expense of the camogie club. The Camogie club never had 1 pick of bother from the big bad unionists that live around the ground.

Windsor Park is so unsafe that through-out the troubles Cliftonville had to play their home games against Linfield at Windsor, because Windsor was safe and Solitude wasn't.

Would you like me to give you more examples why what you said was pure tripe?


it's not the ifa who says windsor is not safe it's uefa. do u really think uefa will care with what u just said about it being safe 4 the green side. that's not there concern they r concerned about poeple from around the world sitting in a wooden hut u call the south stand

[SolitudeRed]

Yes I was wondering about this tenancy agreement between Linfield and the IFA it seems very strange indeed!! Is it not convention that the landlord is responisble for paying for the upkeep of the property? but if I remember correctly recently Belfast city council had to pay for repairs to the roof of one of the stands at windsor:confused:

As for the area its in well when I was last there we were advised to take a detour to avoid the village area!! also if my memory serves me correctly one of those paddywagon tour buses was attacked in the windsor park/Lisburn road area after a Northern Ireland game recently so I wouldn't say that it is entirely risk free!

[geysir]

also if my memory serves me correctly one of those paddywagon tour buses was attacked in the windsor park/Lisburn road area after a Northern Ireland game recently so I wouldn't say that it is entirely risk free!
I wasn't entirely convinced by that report and any supposed connection to Windsor PK, can't remember why.

[gspain]

Others? what others? You have yet to name one other. Already you made 2 wrong calls on that issue. Once you start stumbling over factual accuracy to support accusations, IMO credibility suffers and serious doubts are raised about your interpretation of other facts or so called facts. In other words your interpretations would automatically come in for a degree of scepticism because of proven low standard of research and an easy willingness to accept unsubstantiated facts. These things matter to me.

But to give you some help with your fruitless search for other clubs named after IRA men in the last 80 years. I'll give you a clue, there is a club named after a lad called Fergal.

That issue was brought to the floor of GAA congress by the Ulster delegates in 1980 or therabouts, Congress side-stepped the division, instead passed the ambigious motion to support the struggle for Independance. I'd imagine as I have stated before that the hunger striker thing is reflective of the local members and probably there is widespread sympathy for the hunger strikers amongst those old enough in the GAA.

There is nothing about the struggle bit in the GAA official guide so personally and everybody I know, think the struggle bit means absolutly feck all. Like a Fianna Fail promise.
.

So because I failed to pick up on the fact that a ground was renamed makes the other facts which you choose to ignore in doubt. I've actually provided references in most cases anyway. Happy to provide any others you still doubt. It makes a pretty damning case to me but then maybe because I missed the fact that Drumshanbo renamed their ground it's OK then and there is no evidence to suggest the GAA continue to promote and glorify terrorism.

The motion supporting the "Struggle forn national liberation" was passed on March 26th 1979. It was proposed by Clare (not Ulster GAA). It was the 4th of relevant motions - 2 supporting IRA prisoners in the Maze and 1 calling for the British Army to withdraw from Northern Ireland. All 4 passed without dissent. There was no sidestepping the issue as you claim. In 1980 an attempt was made to waterdown support for "the struggle" by amending this to the "unarmed struggle". This was overwhelmingly defeated. I understand that motions were again passed in 1980 in support of the IRA prisoners but I've no record of these. The reason I asked about the official guide is that you tried to refute these facts by quoting from the official guide saying the "GAA is non sectarian" This would in my view contradict "support for the struggle for national liberation2 which I interpret to be the IRA campaign but I suspect this is justified by claiming the IRA are also non sectarian. I'm not aware of any attempts subsequently to overturn this.

I wasn't aware which club is called after Fergal - Fergal who. Is it Fergal O'Hanlon's in Monaghan?

[Graemerz]

Report slams Windsor Park safety

A damning report on the state of Northern Ireland's international football venue Windsor Park is expected to be published in the next month.
The report by stadium designers the Miller Partnership is understood to say it doesn't meet with safety standards and is in a poor state of repair.

In particular there are problems with fire safety at the Belfast ground.

There are also major problems with disability access and maintenance is described as very poor.

It's understood that as a result of information in the draft report a fire tender has been parked beside the South Stand for Northern Ireland's last two international games.

The BBC also understands that the old Railway Stand at the stadium was closed for international games as a result of the report's initial findings.

The IFA's insurers refused to insure the stand after reading the report.

There is also criticism of the moat in front of the North Stand.

A source said: "Most of the report is not complimentary, in fact you would be hard pushed to say any of it is complimentary."

There are also said to be problems with the West Stand, which was only built a few years ago, and the 6,000 capacity North Stand, where part of the roof blew off in the Christmas period.

It is generally thought there are three options for the way forward.

Firstly, repair Windsor Park in the interim while a new stadium is being built.

This would cost between £2 and £5m and is contingent on concrete plans for a new stadium to be built.

Secondly, repair the ground to an acceptable standard for its present capacity of £14,000, replacing the Railway and South Stands for an estimated £20m.

Finally, rebuild the ground to a comfortable but not luxurious standard with a capacity of 25,000 for an estimated £40m.

The 300-page draft report, which was completed earlier this year, was commissioned by Windsor Park's owners Linfield football club but paid for by the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure.

[geysir]

The reason I asked about the official guide is that you tried to refute these facts by quoting from the official guide saying the "GAA is non sectarian" This would in my view contradict "support for the struggle for national liberation2 which I interpret to be the IRA campaign

Lets look at the evidence
A motion passed is a time and place issue and has absolutly no effect on GAA policy and cannot be compared to an article in the GAA constitution the official guide. It might appear to contradict but in terms of power, strength and durability it cannot in any way contradict.
A GAA congress motion passed 27 years is not proof. It says, at that time this group of delegates pass a motion, a statement. You would have to back it up with evidence that the GAA supported the struggle.
Now we look at your evidence that the GAA was serious about that 1980 motion
One club name, a few unofficial GAA tournments a loughhall celebration of an IRA member Even if I concede all that 100% without any objection
IMO its still nothing of substance that would suggest the GAA supports sectarianism. I say that because that evidence you present might reflect .0001% of GAA member activity. You would be laughed out of any court even a Diplock Court.

Just take a comparison with perceptions.

I am not talking here about the constitutionally sectarian Orange Order and it's right to do whatever within the bounds of the law but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event, while the band in the background was pumping out The Billy Boys. They even listed the few sectarian tunes they play, oh the Billy Boys chuckle chuckle, other times flashing back to pictures of the bonfire while the presenters regaled us with more and more of this cultural event, community event, fair enough we just about missed the large tricolour with KAT (kill all taigs) prominently headlined flying high at the top of the bonfire before being consumed in the fire. This is the NI British Broadcasting Corporation FFS, not just giving normal extensive news coverage but pumping credibility by the gallon into every word uttered by its presenters about this 'Ulster steeped in cultural event'
And you have some GAA members privately organizing whatever competitions in their own GAA back yard with mainly the DUP etc screaming about the so called sectarian crest on a GAA club shirt and whatever the locally organized competition the cup is named after.

Just think about that for minute and consider the perceptions of the levels of institutionalized bigotry that an observer might ascertain from that.
IMO that's one lopsided fecked up society.
That's part the overall context that I draw my perspectives from.

[EalingGreen]

Just take a comparison with perceptions.

I am not talking here about the constitutionally sectarian Orange Order and it's right to do whatever within the bounds of the law but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event, while the band in the background was pumping out The Billy Boys. They even listed the few sectarian tunes they play, oh the Billy Boys chuckle chuckle, other times flashing back to pictures of the bonfire while the presenters regaled us with more and more of this cultural event, community event, fair enough we just about missed the large tricolour with KAT (kill all taigs) prominently headlined flying high at the top of the bonfire before being consumed in the fire. This is the NI British Broadcasting Corporation FFS, not just giving normal extensive news coverage but pumping credibility by the gallon into every word uttered by its presenters about this 'Ulster steeped in cultural event'
And you have some GAA members privately organizing whatever competitions in their own GAA back yard with mainly the DUP etc screaming about the so called sectarian crest on a GAA club shirt and whatever the locally organized competition the cup is named after.

Just think about that for minute and consider the perceptions of the levels of institutionalized bigotry that an observer might ascertain from that.
IMO that's one lopsided fecked up society.
That's part the overall context that I draw my perspectives from.

It seems to me you "draw your perspective" from comparing the GAA with the Orange Order. :rolleyes:

What has the OO got to do with the proposed new Stadium for the Maze (or NI soccer generally)? :confused:

To borrow your own phrase, that is "one lopsided fecked up" line of reasoning. ;)

[geysir]

it seems to me you "draw your perspective" from comparing the GAA with the Orange Order.
No not all comparing the GAA with the Orange Order
"but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event"

Do you get the point?

[EalingGreen]

No not all comparing the GAA with the Orange Order
"but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event"

Do you get the point?


Absolutely not.

This thread is about the Maze Stadium, which it is proposed should be shared by Football, GAA and Rugby. It deviated somewhat along one particular aspect - namely, the "political" aspect of two of those parties (GAA and Football), as threads often do.

But what on earth the Editorial Policy of BBC NI in televising Orange Order Parades on the Twelfth of July has got to do with any of this thread is completely beyond me. :confused:

[geysir]

what on earth the Editorial Policy of BBC NI in televising Orange Order Parades on the Twelfth of July has got to do with any of this thread is completely beyond me.
Then you would have had to follow the discussion. Sometimes people compare.
Do you actually take on board what it is the significance of the BBC NI spiel on the Orange Order. Maybe you are use to the 12th, you know the O O are a bunch of has been bigots, you ignore the whole razzamataz and deal with it in some way. Maybe the last thing you would watch is BBC Live coverage programme of the 12th parades
If you need it spelt out. The GAA, officially, according to some, is a firebrand of republican sectarianism.
Me, looking at how the Orange Orange was being presented by the State Broadcaster, the BBC NI without hesitation or pause for breath with such effusive language for a couple of hours as Ulster, as Ulster culture, as ambassadors for Ulster Culture, as Ulster's Cultural heritage, as the tourist attraction with the economic benifit. I'd argue that NI society has a hell of a lot more to consider that's blocking it's way forward before putting a magnifying glass to the GAA and getting upset by some competition name in some sports club.

[BleusAvantTout]

Geysir - for BBC NI to show a cultural event is amazing! There must have been no bogball or bog hockey to be shown that day!! ;)

[geysir]

There will be live coverage today. A 36,000 sell out for USCF. The Tricolour flying and Anthem sung, if only to make sure that we still get the right sort of crowd :)
ATM Ulster GAA is not desperate re attendance capacity of current stadiums, just the comfort levels are primevil.
GAA supporters would probably prefer if one of their own stadiums in Ulster be brought up to modern standards re seats and cover.

[Buller]

ATM Ulster GAA is not desperate re attendance capacity of current stadiums, just the comfort levels are primevil.
GAA supporters would probably prefer if one of their own stadiums in Ulster be brought up to modern standards re seats and cover.

Let them pay for it themselves then! They get enough free grants to build stadiums down here...