Celtic Cup?

[Mr A]

Report suggests that the Welsh are in favour of one:

Ambitious plans to set up a Celtic Cup

Jun 13 2007

Terry Phillips, South Wales Echo



WELSH soccer bosses today unveiled top secret plans for a new Celtic Cup competition involving teams from Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

They are keen to revamp the FAW Premier Cup, which has a prize of £100,000 on offer for the winners, by bringing in Scottish and Irish sides.

That could mean Kilmarnock, who just missed out on European qualification in the Scottish Premier League, plus clubs like Portadown or Linfield from the Irish League taking on Cardiff City, Wrexham, Swansea, Llanelli and The New Saints.

It looks an exciting opportunity to add new zest to a competition which has been a reasonable success over the last decade.

Full story:

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0600soccer/0200news/tm_headline=ambitious-plans-to-set-up-a-celtic-cup&method=full&objectid=19288801&siteid=50082-name_page.html

Mention of eL clubs not being invited due to Summer season- may impact the Setanta Cup.

[BohsPartisan]

Stupid idea anyway. I've always been against this type of tournament. I see Setanta as a step towards an AIL, this would be pointless.

[jebus]

Not going to happen, for the many, many reasons given in the many, many threads already devoted to this subject

[alltogethernow]

Stupid idea anyway. I've always been against this type of tournament. I see Setanta as a step towards an AIL, this would be pointless.


Have to agree here with BP, would big a big cost to EL clubs having to travel and the Setanta Cup is building to be a good competition and this would dent it, would much prefare an all Ireland league

[Cymro]

If it happens it would be a nice boost to the competition, but I can't see Kilmarnock (who are one of the teams being mentioned) fancying a wet Tuesday trip to Porthmadog.

Irish League sides might be attracted by the chance to play SPL sides and Swansea ;) and the (presumably) increased prize money. I think at best though we'd be able to attract lower SPL sides to this.

[OneRedArmy]

If it happens it would be a nice boost to the competition, but I can't see Kilmarnock (who are one of the teams being mentioned) fancying a wet Tuesday trip to Porthmadog.

Irish League sides might be attracted by the chance to play SPL sides and Swansea ;) and the (presumably) increased prize money. I think at best though we'd be able to attract lower SPL sides to this.
I don't think any of the SPL teams would go for it. Celtic and Rangers wealth spreads around the SPL and even the clubs at the bottom are on very big budgets compared with EL, never mind the IL and Welsh league.

Without the Scots I can't see the IL clubs going for it as its a worse standard than the Setanta with significantly higher travel costs.

[Midgit]

This is for the Irish League anyway. Says nothing about eircon league in it. Didn't expect there to be anything about eircom league in it though.
I thought that would have been a good idea years ago, but when they brought in Setanta cup i thought any chance of this kind of cup wouldn't work.

[Shelsman]

Couldn't be an Celtic league without the Irish! :rolleyes: Though some pedantic spanner out there will counter that there was a lot more to the Celts than Ireland.

Why not just expand the Setanta Cup? I'd be all for it.

[Cymro]

I think the idea is that this will be played as a pre-season thing before Europe, or possibly around Christmas time. It probably would not clash with the current Setanta Cup.

And Shelsman, we were the original and best of the Celts. ;)

[SolitudeRed]

Seems like a silly idea to me most IL fans can't be bothered travelling 30 miles to watch their team never mind to Wales! whats the quality in the Welsh league like anyway? not that great I suspect, The Setanta cup is the way forward!

[Cymro]

Seems like a silly idea to me most IL fans can't be bothered travelling 30 miles to watch their team never mind to Wales! whats the quality in the Welsh league like anyway? not that great I suspect, The Setanta cup is the way forward!

Well, two points there, firstly I'd say the quality in the Welsh Premier is probably close to on a par with the Irish League. The UEFA coefficients are roughly similar and whenever there have friendlies between sides from either league the Welsh Premier teams have always fared well enough.

All a bit of a moot point though, because secondly, there'd probably only be something like two representatives from the Welsh Premier.

It's likely the FAW would enter Cardiff, ourselves and Wrexham, and then maybe the top handful of Welsh Premier teams, depending on how the tournament was structured.

Say we had 4 reps from Scotland four from NI and 4 from Wales.

The first stage could be done in national groups to ease the travelling difficulties.

The group winners plus best runner-up could then progress to a knockout or something.

It's likely the total prize money would be more than doubled from the present £250k pot on the FAW Premier Cup, so that would more than pay the travelling costs.

I have to be honest and say I don't see this happening, but I wouldn't mind seeing it even if it were just a one off.

[CharlesThompson]

So what's this got to do with the eL?

[dcfcsteve]

And Shelsman, we were the original and best of the Celts. ;)

Ehhh ? :confused: So how'd you end up being the biggest county in England then....? :D

[Cymro]

Ehhh ? :confused: So how'd you end up being the biggest county in England then....?

Because some people are ignorant of the fact that we are a seperate consituent nation of the UK. ;)

OK, most people.......:o

[Kivlehan]

Expanding the Setanta Cup and including LOI teams would be the better way to go. It will probably attract more attention and a bigger cash prize for all leagues invovled.

[Snoop Drog]

I think the Scots, even lower premier teams, would have some appeal for EL fans.

[dcfcsteve]

Because some people are ignorant of the fact that we are a seperate consituent nation of the UK. ;)

OK, most people.......:o

An easy mistake to make - given you're the only constituent part of the UK who's legal, educational etc structures are tied to England's. Hence why you see things referring to 'England and Wales only'.

"Big county in England ! You're just a big county in England...!" ;)

Anyways - can't see the Celtic Cup idea working, as don't see what's in it for the Scottish clubs really. Also - why would the likes of Cardiff or Swansea want to get involved in it on a going basis ?

[Soper]

Well, I could only predict that whatever ties Cardiff etc to the FAW Premier Cup would contribute to them taking part in this....

[Cymro]

An easy mistake to make - given you're the only constituent part of the UK who's legal, educational etc structures are tied to England's. Hence why you see things referring to 'England and Wales only'.

"Big county in England ! You're just a big county in England...!" ;)

Anyways - can't see the Celtic Cup idea working, as don't see what's in it for the Scottish clubs really. Also - why would the likes of Cardiff or Swansea want to get involved in it on a going basis ?

Actually now (as of last month) the assembly has law-making powers albeit we have to go to Westminster for the all-clear, so our laws will not automatcially be English law.

Also, as Soper said, we're in the FAW Premier Cup anyway until 2009 so I assume this is a move by the FAW to make it more attractive in the long term by adding Scottish/Irish teams.

[Lim till i die]

I think the Scots, even lower premier teams, would have some appeal for EL fans.

This stoopid argument again

Inverness?? Motherwell?? St. Mirren?? Gretna??

Wise up FFS :rolleyes:

[Steve Bruce]

It'll never take off. Maybe if the prize money was 250k-300k would it be beneficial for teams to compete in.

[dcfcsteve]

Actually now (as of last month) the assembly has law-making powers albeit we have to go to Westminster for the all-clear, so our laws will not automatcially be English law.

Also, as Soper said, we're in the FAW Premier Cup anyway until 2009 so I assume this is a move by the FAW to make it more attractive in the long term by adding Scottish/Irish teams.

English and Welsh law are currently the samem, bar very minor Welsh-only exceptions (e.g. the rather imperfect Language Act). Overtime, the Assembly will be able to tinker with more minor laws around the edges - but currently English law is your law, full stop. Whatever case law is decided in the English High Court becomes law in Wales.

This is not the case for NI or Scotland, which have their own legal systems and structures (particularly Scotland).

So much for being the original Celts.... :p

[Cymro]

English and Welsh law are currently the samem, bar very minor Welsh-only exceptions (e.g. the rather imperfect Language Act). Overtime, the Assembly will be able to tinker with more minor laws around the edges - but currently English law is your law, full stop. Whatever case law is decided in the English High Court becomes law in Wales.

This is not the case for NI or Scotland, which have their own legal systems and structures (particularly Scotland).

So much for being the original Celts.... :p

Only a matter of time before a full parliament is formed here Steve, don't worry about that.

With the lack of popularity of Labour I wouldn't be surprised if Plaid won the next assembly election, especially with Gordon Brown in charge at Westminster!

Scotland have their own parliament, NI should have one but can't stop bickering between each other so it's suspended most of the time.

We should have one soon, hopefully this will be sped up by the decline of Labour in Wales. However the fact that we share some aspects of English law doesn't make us part of England.

I could list loads of UN-recognised countries (eg US Virgin Islands) that rely on a bigger neighbour for their legislation. That argument doesn't hold much water to be honest.

And we are the original Celts-our ancestors migrated over to Britain (basically Wales until the Romans, Saxons etc. arrived) originally and later sailed over to Ireland later. The Scots are hardly Celtic at all-probably less so than the English. If you watched the documentary series called Face of Britain you'd know what I'm on about.

[SolitudeRed]

Well, two points there, firstly I'd say the quality in the Welsh Premier is probably close to on a par with the Irish League. The UEFA coefficients are roughly similar and whenever there have friendlies between sides from either league the Welsh Premier teams have always fared well enough.

All a bit of a moot point though, because secondly, there'd probably only be something like two representatives from the Welsh Premier.

It's likely the FAW would enter Cardiff, ourselves and Wrexham, and then maybe the top handful of Welsh Premier teams, depending on how the tournament was structured.

Say we had 4 reps from Scotland four from NI and 4 from Wales.

The first stage could be done in national groups to ease the travelling difficulties.

The group winners plus best runner-up could then progress to a knockout or something.

It's likely the total prize money would be more than doubled from the present £250k pot on the FAW Premier Cup, so that would more than pay the travelling costs.

I have to be honest and say I don't see this happening, but I wouldn't mind seeing it even if it were just a one off.

I agree with you there Cymro I know that the Irish League is a poor leaue! I'm not that deluded! according to the rankings the welsh and Irish Leagues have the same coefficient!

Heres the Rankings here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficients#League_coefficient

Thought the EL would be a bit higher than 40th!

[Dazzy]

35th this season i think.

[Shelsman]

Only a matter of time before a full parliament is formed here Steve, don't worry about that..

Yes, fair play.


And we are the original Celts-our ancestors migrated over to Britain (basically Wales until the Romans, Saxons etc. arrived) originally and later sailed over to Ireland later.

Where did ye sail from so? :confused: France? or maybe it was the Falklands? :D

TBH I've great time for the Welsh, Scots too. Fair play for keeping your own language alive.

[Cymro]

Yes, fair play.



Where did ye sail from so? :confused: France? or maybe it was the Falklands? :D

TBH I've great time for the Welsh, Scots too. Fair play for keeping your own language alive.

We originally came from northern Spain. Then about 15,000 years ago some bright spark suggested we move to that unchartered land to the north. It wasn't until about 3,000 years later that that man's great-great-great-great-great-great (well you get the picture) grandson thought he'd take a jolly over the Irish Sea. ;)

[dcfcsteve]

We originally came from northern Spain. Then about 15,000 years ago some bright spark suggested we move to that unchartered land to the north. It wasn't until about 3,000 years later that that man's great-great-great-great-great-great (well you get the picture) grandson thought he'd take a jolly over the Irish Sea. ;)

Cymro - I suggest you get yourself onto Amazon and invest in some Celtic history books, as yer talking out of your hoop here.

The fact that Irish Gaelic and Welsh Cymraeg are from 2 distinctly separate branches of the Celtic language family should be enough on it's own to tell you that the supposedly Celtic population of Ireland* did not just all pop over on the boat from the supposedly Celtic population of Wales. Pure nonesense here. (*I add the word supposedly, as there is a theory, that carries some currency, that the Celts may be a linguistic group rather than an actual single genetic or ancestral group of people).

And academics who consider the Celts to be an ethnic grouping trace their origins to south-eastern Europe/Western Asia (allegedly Thracia or the Caucauses). They only became identifiable as Celtic tribes with Celtic languages when they migrated into central Europe and beyond c. 500 BC. So the idea that the Welsh were the one true Celts and all came over from Spain (a laughable 15,000 years ago !) is complete twaddle.

The one indisputable thing the Welsh are is the one true remaining Britains. So come on dude - get yourself down the library and let's stop the cod-history lessons..... :D ;)

[CollegeTillIDie]

This competition is interesting but ultimately won't work for several reasons.

1) Lesser mortals from Scotland have no appeal in Ireland( North or South).
Anyone outside Celtic, Rangers , Hearts and Hibs, won't put additional bums on seats.

2) League of Wales clubs would attract less crowds to games on this island than the Rugby teams do and their crowds( i.e. Magner's League) are not massive.

3) The security costs involved in playing the likes of Swansea City and Cardiff City( if those two became involved) would far outweigh the revenues gained playing teams under headings 1) and 2). The supporters of Swansea and Cardiff were involved in unsavoury incidents in Europe , the last few years they were permitted represent Wales by virtue of winning the Welsh Cup.
This stopped in the early nineties when the FAW formed the League of Wales and only teams based in that League were permitted to represent the principality.

4) Free Cornwall :D

[CollegeTillIDie]

We originally came from northern Spain. Then about 15,000 years ago some bright spark suggested we move to that unchartered land to the north. It wasn't until about 3,000 years later that that man's great-great-great-great-great-great (well you get the picture) grandson thought he'd take a jolly over the Irish Sea. ;)

There are two distinct linguistic branches of Celtic languages in these islands

The P and (hard) C celts. Example Welsh pen = head Irish Ceann = head
(hard C)

There is evidence that the Welsh language is related to Cornish and Breton ;that means that it is possible that the Cornish and Breton Celts may have arrived in their current homelands at a similar timeframe to the Welsh arriving in Cymru.

The other branch includes Irish , Scots Gaelic and Manx languages . And there is also evidence that the original celtic speaking settlers in Ireland also came from Northern Spain. Other branches of the Celtic speaking people did settle in the Balkans and Central Europe. Traces of Celtic civilization being found in such countries as Serbia , Slovakia, Germany , Austria and the Czech Republic.

[Cymro]

4) Free Cornwall :D

Won't argue with that. ;)