FF & Green Party in Government

[pete]

Sounds like they are some distance from agreement... What are the stumbling blocks? Has Trevor Sargeant requested Toyota Prius for all Ministers instead of Mercs? :D

[BohsPartisan]

Sounds like they are some distance from agreement... What are the stumbling blocks? Has Trevor Sargeant requested Toyota Prius for all Ministers instead of Mercs? :D


Very least he should be demanding. Maybe he wants all the bread in the canteen to be from Sonairte.

[Risteard]

Posturing methinks.
However, if the Greens back out, it will be very significant.
It would be very tough for Rabitte or Howlin to then sign up.
A FF/Harney and Grealish / Independents government would nearly be as rocky as Endas proposed coalition.
Another election please.
This coalition government practice is ridiculous imo.

[GavinZac]

This coalition government practice is ridiculous imo.
the alternative is bipartisan politics, the plague of the Worlds Greatest Nation TM

[Risteard]

Or genuine PR like the North.

[mypost]

The tree-huggers have quit the talks process, which means that because of our electoral system, we're back to where we started 5 weeks ago. Nowhere.

[onceahoop]

The tree-huggers have quit the talks process, which means that because of our electoral system, we're back to where we started 5 weeks ago. Nowhere.

They wanted billions to "bring our education into the 21st century" yet they want to stop road building and keep many roads in the 18th century.

It wasn't enough for clever Trevor to save a rain forest by writing his notes on his hands!!!!

[pete]

I am surprised a deal has not been done as FF don;t stand for anything so can make a deal with anyone. Its like they have any core principles unless you include corporate "donations/loans/gift grubs"

[Lionel Ritchie]

Right little Ogra meeting going on here.

They wanted billions to "bring our education into the 21st century" yet they want to stop road building and keep many roads in the 18th century Given a straight choice between money for roads or money for education (which I don't think is what anyone is advocating in any event) I'll plump for education every time ...and for sound economic reasons -not to suit my construction buddy clients.


The tree-huggers have quit the talks process, which means that because of our electoral system, we're back to where we started 5 weeks ago. Nowhere. ...yeah we'd be better off with the UKs first past the post system. Fianna Fail or Fine Gael ...it's wide open.:rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

the alternative is bipartisan politics,

The real alternative is BohsPartisan politics! :D

[GavinZac]

The real alternative is BohsPartisan politics! :D

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4103/bppea7.gif

edit: isnt it strange, we can put in full videos and music, but not a simple picture?

[BohsPartisan]

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4103/bppea7.gif


:D lol

[mypost]

yeah we'd be better off with the UKs first past the post system. Fianna Fail or Fine Gael ...it's wide open.:rolleyes:

Well, at least it would be better than voting for a one party state.

1987: FF 1989: FF, 1992: FF,
1997: FF 2002: FF, 2007?? FF :rolleyes:

There must be something seriously wrong with our election system, when the French and Germans know who's won after a couple of hours, and that after 5 weeks of electioneering, canvassing, begging, voting, counting, re-counting, and debating on a small island, we've got...

Nowhere. :rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

Well, at least it would be better than voting for a one party state.

1987: FF 1989: FF, 1992: FF,
1997: FF 2002: FF, 2007?? FF :rolleyes:
you understand a consistant government does not equal a one part state, right? should the other parties not bother turning up to the dail?

[dahamsta]

the French and Germans know who's won after a couple of hoursBecause of an untrustable voting system. I'll stick with paper and pencil if it's all the same. I can't trust it 100%, but I can trust it better than a computer system; and I'm no luddite, I actually know how computers work.


after 5 weeks of electioneering, canvassing, begging, voting, counting, re-counting, and debating on a small island, we've got Nowhere.For someone so outspoken about political issues, you don't actually seem to understand the subject very well. Tying the timeliness of the vote with the time it takes to form a goverment is utterly nonsensical, for example.

adam

[Schumi]

Well, at least it would be better than voting for a one party state.So we should bring in First Past the Post voting to reduce the chances of Fianna Fáil getting into government? :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

Better still, do like ice hockey and when you get into Government, you aren't allowed to run next time.

[mypost]

Because of an untrustable voting system. I'll stick with paper and pencil if it's all the same. I can't trust it 100%, but I can trust it better than a computer system.

There's the same chance of a computer affecting a vote, as a politician stealing votes in a paper ballot to get the result he needs. Our system is subject to re-counts, and results in changed seats.

€50 million of our money was spent on a system we're not allowed to use, so how did we punish the Minister responsible??

Vote him in again!! :D

[Ringo]

Because of an untrustable voting system. I'll stick with paper and pencil if it's all the same. I can't trust it 100%, but I can trust it better than a computer system; and I'm no luddite, I actually know how computers work.

For someone so outspoken about political issues, you don't actually seem to understand the subject very well. Tying the timeliness of the vote with the time it takes to form a goverment is utterly nonsensical, for example.

adam


Do you see a stage where we can use electronic voting, it seems to make sence to me. What needs to be in the system for you to have faith in it?

[dahamsta]

I don't know what technological changes are ahead, so I can't comment on the future, only what's available right now; and the technology that's available right now can't be trusted. At all -- I don't agree with the majority of the anti-evoting lobby, who say that if the software and hardware specs are open, they can be reviewed and therefore the system can be secured*.

That's a very naive, academic point of view that doesn't cater for the source of the majority of fraud these days: social engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28security%29). I absolutely guaranteee that I could walk into one of the locations where the eVoting machines are stored and walk out with one on a trolley. I absolutely guarantee that I could have walked into a polling station with it later.

Ballot box elections are open to this kind of fraud too, but you can't infect one ballot box from another. You can win a seat with a ballot box election, with difficulty. You can't win a government. Which is more important?

adam

* Which isn't the same as saying they shouldn't be open. Of course they should. Closed Government is the same as dictatorship, in my opinion.

[pete]

I don't know what technological changes are ahead, so I can't comment on the future, only what's available right now; and the technology that's available right now can't be trusted. At all -- I don't agree with the majority of the anti-evoting lobby, who say that if the software and hardware specs are open, they can be reviewed and therefore the system can be secured*.[/I]

I think eVoting has been messed up so much by Cullen that would be very difficult to implement for a long time due to public scepticism. I could not believe when I heard recently that the Department of Environment did no tests on the delivery system whatsoever. They were clearly clueless about what they really wanted or needed & even worse did not seem to care one way or the other.

:rolleyes:

Seems like FF off to try cut a deal (aka bribe) with Independents & PDs now. Its hard to see if the Greens would not swallow a "co-located" Health system how McGrath & Gregory will accept. Its a given that Lowry, Flynn (bankruptcy court case coming soon) & Healy-Rae can be bought off as they have no ideological stances.

[dahamsta]

Be a hoot if they weren't able to form a government. I know it'd be a mess, but still, a hoot.

Course if we went back to the polls we'd probably end up with a FF majority, given the recent history of our dumber-than-dumb electorate.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Course if we went back to the polls we'd probably end up with a FF majority, given the recent history of our dumber-than-dumb electorate.
You know what I was thinking the same thing Adam and, as much as I loathe FF and all they, erm, stand for -I'm beginning to think it might not be such a bad thing in the medium to long term.

A term in office on their own, albeit probably a curtailed one due to one or other of them getting caught with a hand in the till -will possibly result in their utter decimation at the next election. Now who'd benefit from that decimation is moot.

But whoever comes in would have a lot of damage to sweep up and useless machinery to get rid of.

[mypost]

Seems like FF off to try cut a deal (aka bribe) with Independents & PDs now. Its hard to see if the Greens would not swallow a "co-located" Health system how McGrath & Gregory will accept. Its a given that Lowry, Flynn (bankruptcy court case coming soon) & Healy-Rae can be bought off as they have no ideological stances.

If Bertie cuts the deal with all his ex-FF mates, the majority will be so weak, together with the Mahon tribunal, and Flynn's court case, it'll probably last 6 months, before we'll be into another election. There's more to this, than just making up the numbers...

[Poor Student]

Papers suggest FF will try to weaken the opposition further by nominating Brendan Howlin or Ruari Quinn for Ceann Comhairle or perhaps Tony Gregory.

[onceahoop]

[QUOTE=Lionel Ritchie;700965]Right little Ogra meeting going on here.
Given a straight choice between money for roads or money for education (which I don't think is what anyone is advocating in any event) I'll plump for education every time ...and for sound economic reasons -not to suit my construction buddy clients.


Unfortunately we need better roads to cater for greater mobility and to spread employment around the country. No point having one of the best educated workforces in the world if they can't get employment. BTW there is plenty of money to cater for everyone. It's how it's used that's the problem and personally I blame the Civil Servants. They'll build empires for themselves but they won't do anything that will put their next promotion at risk. They'll keep pushing files around and never make a decision.

[OneRedArmy]

Don't know if its been mentioned elsewhere but Finian McGrath has certainly revealed himself as a spineless wimp by backing down on two of his main campaign issues (Shannon and co-location of private hospitals) when Bertie's lads came calling.

Pathetic.

At least Healy-Rae and Lowry have no qualms about admitting their support is bought by a shopping list of local projects for their constituency.

A FF-PD-Ind coalition is surely the worst possible outcome with no effective challenge on a national level to FF's policies.

[monutdfc]

Better still, do like ice hockey and when you get into Government, you aren't allowed to run next time.
What an excellent idea!
Then all decisions would be made for the good of the nation instead of simply to secure votes for the next election...

[BohsPartisan]

What an excellent idea!
Then all decisions would be made for the good of the nation instead of simply to secure votes for the next election...

I'm in favour of there being provision in the constitution of a recall referendum where you get a certain percentage of signatures you can call an election (by/general/local/whatever).

[onceahoop]

Bertie and Trevor talking an hour after Trevor said he couldn't see it. Adjourned until tomorrow. Deadlines have come and gone and still he show goes on:rolleyes:

[pete]

I suppose the Greens principles would include the following:
- Opposed to Corporate donations
- Carbon Taxes & carbon reductions
- Anti-War (e.g Shannon refueling)
- Ant-Motorways (e.g. Hill of Tara)

Which ones will they have to compromise on?

[dfx-]

I was away for a week directly after the election. Within minutes of landing and hearing that people's choice who are notorious for 4th and 5th preferences (transfer votes) are in talks with those who get a lot of seats and 1st preferences depressed me more than the rain upon arrival.

Can we not vote in a definitive and simple government (irrespective of whether they're liked by everyone) quickly like everybody else in this weird world just this once?

[OneRedArmy]

Bertie and Trevor talking an hour after Trevor said he couldn't see it. Adjourned until tomorrow. Deadlines have come and gone and still he show goes on:rolleyes:Why the eye roll?

Its FF that are doing the begging now. Sergeant has played it very well to date. He called Bertie's bluff and FF came back with their tails between their legs.

Unfortunately other news tonight that Healy-Rae has returned to Kerry with his palm crossed with lots of silver....... No doubt any more anti-publican legislation is off the agenda for 5 years.

Is there anywhere left to bypass down there?

[BohsPartisan]

- Carbon Taxes & carbon reductions

- Anti-Motorways (e.g. Hill of Tara)



This will be what FF offer. Tax at the petrol pump and re-route Tara motorway. This isn't too much for them to give away. They won't budge on Shannon or corporate donations.

[pete]

This will be what FF offer. Tax at the petrol pump and re-route Tara motorway. This isn't too much for them to give away. They won't budge on Shannon or corporate donations.

If the government last 5 years in the next election FF will say
- Its the Greens fault all those Motorways still unfinished.
- Tax increases on petrol are the Greens fault.

[BohsPartisan]

Possibly but I have a feeling the Greens are desperate for power. Though getting their party membership to agree is another thing. Don't they need a two thirds majority or something like that?

[Ringo]

Why the eye roll?

Its FF that are doing the begging now. Sergeant has played it very well to date. He called Bertie's bluff and FF came back with their tails between their legs.

Unfortunately other news tonight that Healy-Rae has returned to Kerry with his palm crossed with lots of silver....... No doubt any more anti-publican legislation is off the agenda for 5 years.

Is there anywhere left to bypass down there?


FF don't need the Greens now. Bertie will be elected one way or the other on Thursday. the Greens will fold to be in Government.

[OneRedArmy]

FF don't need the Greens now. Bertie will be elected one way or the other on Thursday. the Greens will fold to be in Government.They may not need the Greens on Thursday but a coalition without the Greens isn't going to see them through 5 years of Government.

There's only one side folding and its FF.

[BohsPartisan]

They may not need the Greens on Thursday but a coalition without the Greens isn't going to see them through 5 years of Government.


They can form a government without the greens but it won't exactly be stable. Jackie Healy Rae could pop his clogs at any time and Beverly Cooper Flynn could be declared bankrupt meaning she'd lose her seat. On top of that, the demands of Independents are more volatile and rective to the demands of a particular constituency.

[Ringo]

They may not need the Greens on Thursday but a coalition without the Greens isn't going to see them through 5 years of Government.

There's only one side folding and its FF.


We'll see, if a program for government is agreed. Can't see FF giving in on major issues. We'll have loads of reviews, committees etc set up, that type of thing. Greens will get Environment, none of the really important ministries.

[mypost]

Can we not vote in a definitive and simple government (irrespective of whether they're liked by everyone) quickly like everybody else in this weird world just this once?

Because of the mad voting system we use, no.

[Macy]

Because of the mad voting system we use, no.
It's more because of the mad electorate we use, rather than the system.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

It's more because of the mad electorate we use, rather than the system.
:D Like it.

[dfx-]

It's more because of the mad electorate we use, rather than the system.

Can you blame the electorate when they put them as 17th preference, yet they still hold this much influence?

Personally, I feel anything below 16th preference should insinuate that perhaps they're not the desired party in Government. Maybe that's just me..

Only in Ireland..we should throttle the guy who invented coalition politics once and for all.

[mypost]

Personally, I feel anything below 16th preference should insinuate that perhaps they're not the desired party in Government.

Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do? :confused:

[GavinZac]

Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do? :confused:

you really don't seem to understand a lot of what you're saying, at least the way it comes across.

if a party loses 6 seats, that does not make the remaining ones any less the choice of their constituencies. if you're so against coalitions, you realise any kind of blockade on them would put fianna fail in an unassailable lead?

[Macy]

Can you blame the electorate when they put them as 17th preference, yet they still hold this much influence?
Yes, because you don't have to give everyone a preference. One of the great misrepresentations of the system imo - if you don't want a particular person elected, then give them no preference rather than a low one!

The electorate choose to decide on local candidates rather than national issues and legislature or even policy. This leads to a fragmented Dáil and therefore coalitions. Dáil elections are like a big county council election, and that is the fault of the people not the system.


Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do?
No, but then they voted for FF, which was always going to mean that. If people wanted change, they had the option. I think you two are just guilty of buying into the FF propaganda "that it was all the nasty wasty PD's and we're really a centre left party". The PD's or any junior coalition partner only have that influence because the main party agrees with the policy.

[OneRedArmy]

I'd rank a party voted with a 16th preference as being more deserving of Government than some cute hoor muck savage in a flat cap from the ar se of nowhere that I couldn't vote for, getting a chunk of my tax money to do as he pleases.

[mypost]

if a party loses 6 seats, that does not make the remaining ones any less the choice of their constituencies.

If a party loses 75% of it's seats, then that's clearly a message from the electorate to them:

"We don't want you in government".

[GavinZac]

some cute hoor muck savage in a flat cap from the ar se of nowhere that I couldn't vote for, getting a chunk of my tax money to do as he pleases.

you're against EU farmer subsidies then? :D