View Full Version : Tribunal Newsflash - Bertie's money
Not to mention the seven grand from his mother. They really loved him.
Now now, that was birthday money, yes the fully grown Minister was getting birthday money from his mother to the tune of 7k. I think someone a few posts back said something about not caring if this was confirmation money, he still needs to declare it? I laughed at the time, but it's looking more and more like he's gonna pull the confirmation money line out at any stage now :D
Bertie must have been shocked this morning at the cheering inside Dublin Castle for the Mahon Tribunal when they asked Bertie's lawyers to withdraw their statement that the Mahon officials are corrupt. I say he must have been shocked because apparantly he still believes that the public are fully behind him in this :D:D What an absolute moron, great leader you voted in their though guys, great leader
Kingdom
22/02/2008, 3:03 PM
Bertie must have been shocked this morning at the cheering inside Dublin Castle for the Mahon Tribunal when they asked Bertie's lawyers to withdraw their statement that the Mahon officials are corrupt. I say he must have been shocked because apparantly he still believes that the public are fully behind him in this :D:D What an absolute moron, great leader you voted in their though guys, great leader
Its more disgusting and funny as the days go on.
Lionel Ritchie
02/03/2008, 10:47 AM
Just listening to Martin Manseragh indulging in profound denial on Marian Finucanes Radio 1 show. He tried obfustication, he tried whataboutery, he even tried stunned silence follwed by stammering at one point when confronted with for example, two and a half times Berties salary passing through his personal account in one year.
He urged that the Tribunal should be allowed finish it's work before any judgement is passed and then promptly went on to pass judgement on others.
Just back from 2 weeks away & taxi driver telling me Celia Larkin got a 30k "loan" from Fianna Fail in 1994 that Bertie did not know about? Would like to say you couldn't make this up but it is exactly the stuff you would make up. Surely this is fraud or at the very least tax evasion? :confused:
Fianna Fail unaffected in the opinion polls too. Shame on us.
RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0313/mahon.html)
Berties friend Tim Collins in the Tribunal trying to explain the BT bank account.
It was to ensure that he and other trustees of Fianna Fáil's Dublin Central's constituency office, St Luke's, were not left with a liability if anything happened to Bertie Ahern. But Mr Collins was unable to say how this could arise.
Surely this was just a slush fund account to hide personal "donations" like money given by Davy Stockbrokers?
Can't think how a constituency office would have a liability of something happened to Bertie Ahern. Bizarre.
The DT Account was the Des & Tim Account, however the BT Account was not the Bertie & Tim Account, no sir, that was the Building Trust Account, the one that had it's name changed to very shortly after the Tribunal discovered it...
monutdfc
14/03/2008, 8:22 AM
I find it really annoying that all the media outlets persist in calling the 30k to Celia Larkin "a loan". By Bertie Ahern's own definition of a loan (from when Lowry was claiming money from Ben Dunne was a loan) it has to be contemporaneously documented with a market interest rate. Not suddenly repaid 10 years later with nominal (deposit) interest when the tribunal starts sniffing.
monutdfc
14/03/2008, 8:23 AM
The DT Account was the Des & Tim Account, however the BT Account was not the Bertie & Tim Account, no sir, that was the Building Trust Account, the one that had it's name changed to very shortly after the Tribunal discovered it...
Ha ha, just read that bit.
Hmmm....yeah, right
Lionel Ritchie
15/03/2008, 8:36 AM
It'd be hilarious but for the fact these people have this country in a headlock.
Can someone tell me what the feck a "surplus donation" is? Spare money you don't need? Why does it need it's own account?
monutdfc
19/03/2008, 11:56 AM
From Newstalk, sounds like the ridiculous "Building Trust" story is falling apart
Blair Hughes who was a manager at the Irish Permanent Building Society in Drumcondra, is answering questions at the Mahon Tribunal about the now infamous "B/T" account.
The Tribunal has previously heard that the account was opened by Mr Tim Collins, for renovations and building work to the Saint Luke's Constituency Office.
Mr Hughes told the Tribunal in a statement that he had no reason to believe the account had anything to do with Fianna Fail, the local cumann or that it related to a building trust.
http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/news/6693/bertie-bank-manager-gives-evidence.html
John83
19/03/2008, 12:14 PM
I find it really annoying that all the media outlets persist in calling the 30k to Celia Larkin "a loan". By Bertie Ahern's own definition of a loan (from when Lowry was claiming money from Ben Dunne was a loan) it has to be contemporaneously documented with a market interest rate. Not suddenly repaid 10 years later with nominal (deposit) interest when the tribunal starts sniffing.
I confused as to why more hasn't been made of this.
I confused as to why more hasn't been made of this.
Possibly because just "loaning" money from FF. Since FF-ers not upset I presume this was common practice in the party of blank cheques?
The only defence Ahern has in this whole sorry mess now is to claim the Tribunal should not be investigating him as he deny deny deny not working any more.
John83
19/03/2008, 1:56 PM
Possibly because just "loaning" money from FF. Since FF-ers not upset...
This is what I don't get. Possibly it wasn't even illegal*, and it's not like the money was earmarked for someone's kidney operation, but still, surely this is something to get mad over? Any FF heads care to comment?
*I'm no lawyer, but tax issues are surely floating around here, and surely there are rules governing how FF's money gets moved around by its officers, requiring some accountability to committees and AGMs.
*I'm no lawyer, but tax issues are surely floating around here, and surely there are rules governing how FF's money gets moved around by its officers, requiring some accountability to committees and AGMs.
Accountability? LMAO :eek:
Sure FF went up in recent polls. We get the government we deserve.
Seems it's not just FF politicians that have memory problems, but also FF staff judging by the evidence yesterday. To paraphase: Berties Secretary "I don't know of any such account"; Tribunal Lawyers "Would you agree this is your name and address in your handwriting on these lodgement slips to the said account?"
Also more sterling lodgements showing up, and it seems Permenant TSB keep better records than the big two...
Sure FF went up in recent polls. We get the government we deserve.
Have to agree with that, I mean we let everyone else do a half assed job, from the girl serving us in a restaurant to the board of Iarnroid Eireann, so why not politicians? Well that seems to be the attitude Fianna Fail supporters are taking at this stage anyway
Kingdom
20/03/2008, 8:55 AM
What worries me is that nobody, at all, in FF seems to see anything wrong with whats going on. That not one of them has the decency to question the morals of either the leader or the cabinet is worrying.
In an age/era where it is likely for the govt to need independent backing surely one of the higher non-portfolio td's would have the balls to stand up and say 'right, this isn't for me, I'm out' and run as an independent. I couldn't see their standing falling in the community anyway.
I'm baffled. I really am. I understand that you vote for the person who serves the constituency well, but it got to the stage with me where I wouldn't vote FF in the last election because of Ahern, likewise I wouldn't vote for Labour cause I didn't trust Rabbitte to do a U-turn. So Olwyn Enright got the vote.
dahamsta
20/03/2008, 9:08 AM
Fianna Fail are mé féiners and they don't have the "decency" because they're looking after their own interests, not the interests of the government or their constituents. Of course this applies to all politicians to some degree, but FF have it down to an art form.
They'll start abandoning ship and attaching themselves to a replacement real soon now, mark my words. And Cowen's not going to get the easy ride Gordon Brown got either.
adam
RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0319/mahon.html)
Bertie Aherns lawyers are now asking the Tribunal for more time to come up with an explanation.
However a former manager for the building society has said he believes that over £15,500 came from sterling cash conversions.
Colm Ó hOisín SC for the Taoiseach said they had only received documentation recently and their client had been out of the country. He said the Taoiseach will be replying to the tribunal in due course.
Former Irish Permanent manager Blair Hughes said he cannot offer any other explanation for the lodgements. Mr Hughes was shown documentation surrounding the cash lodgements of odd sum amounts at the Drumcondra branch of the Irish Permanent between March and October 1994.
Over £11,500 was lodged to Bertie Ahern's account and more than £2,000 each to the accounts of his daughters Cecelia and Georgina.
Mr Hughes accepted that each lodgement was preceded by a sterling purchase by the branch and he said this facility would only be given to account holders. He could not offer any other explanation for the lodgements, apart from them being being the result of sterling conversions.
Surely this just means they need more time to spin another yarn as the previous ones did not work? The Irish Permanent (in those days a Building Society) in Drumcondra unlikely to be a hot bed of sterling conversions given only available to account holders? They seem to continue to reject the sterling claims with no plausible explanation yet. Is that the key to unlocking some massive secret?
:confused:
Lionel Ritchie
20/03/2008, 9:21 AM
Just in conversation last night a question came up -at what point might Revenue and the CAB become interested in all of this?
According to the rather thrashy if still noble 'Dirty Money' that was aired the other night CAB were shadowing Ray Burke right the way through his testimony at the tribunal and joining the dots from the little clues he was leaving.
I presume they're doing something similar here, waiting in the wings. But who's to know?
As for his secretary, £66 a week, no huge cash lodgements into her account, I wonder why did she "forget" making the lodgements. If it's just down to some kind of misguided loyalty to her former employer then I kind of feel sorry for her.
As for his secretary, £66 a week, no huge cash lodgements into her account, I wonder why did she "forget" making the lodgements. If it's just down to some kind of misguided loyalty to her former employer then I kind of feel sorry for her.
She would need to be careful as I presume she could be prosecuted for perjury?
John83
20/03/2008, 9:44 AM
They'll start abandoning ship and attaching themselves to a replacement real soon now, mark my words. And Cowen's not going to get the easy ride Gordon Brown got either.
adam
Someone suggested to me the other day that FG aren't pushing about Bertie as hard as they might because they're afraid of Cowen. I'm no FF fan, but I suspect that if he can dump Bertie without doing himself any great harm, he'll lead the polls.
Kingdom
20/03/2008, 9:59 AM
Someone suggested to me the other day that FG aren't pushing about Bertie as hard as they might because they're afraid of Cowen. I'm no FF fan, but I suspect that if he can dump Bertie without doing himself any great harm, he'll lead the polls.
If anything is revealed about Ahern, Cowen will suffer as a result of his complete backing of the tea-shop.
dahamsta
20/03/2008, 10:14 AM
If anything is revealed about Ahern, Cowen will suffer as a result of his complete backing of the tea-shop.That was my thought. And it's too late for him to back down on his support for Bertie now, the damage is done. He's taken a massive risk; a fatal one by the looks of it.
Plus of course if Bertie himself doesn't back down soon, it won't be just the Taoiseach that falls. Not that Bertie'll give a crap, he's the ultimate mé féiner.
adam
Kingdom
20/03/2008, 10:17 AM
That was my thought. And it's too late for him to back down on his support for Bertie now, the damage is done. He's taken a massive risk; a fatal one by the looks of it.
Plus of course if Bertie himself doesn't back down soon, it won't be just the Taoiseach that falls. Not that Bertie'll give a crap, he's the ultimate mé féiner.
adam
Might be no harm for FF, not that I care all the same, but who would be next in line? Dermot Ahern, O'Dea, Harney (if she went back)?
If I was to nominate someone to blow the whistle on any potential scandal though, and while I've no reason whatsoever for saying it, but Dempsey is someone everytime I see him on tv never seems like his heart is in defending Ahern.
Ministers will continue to defend Bertie if they feel he is staying around for a few years. After all he appoints the Ministers & they all the best job they can get. If Ahern announces he is to retire in lets say 6 months you won't see Ministers popping up as enthusiastically as previously to defend him. Pretty much guaranteed any one in the government will use the "could not do anything until the Tribunal finished its work" excuse when this finally ends.
If I was to nominate someone to blow the whistle on any potential scandal though, and while I've no reason whatsoever for saying it, but Dempsey is someone everytime I see him on tv never seems like his heart is in defending Ahern.
I don't know, he's probably been out there more than the rest of the cabinet. Are you sure it's not the fact he can barely string a coherent sentence together anytime he's interviewed? Surely him, Cullen, Hanafin, Roche etc owe their political careers to the Bert, since they're hardly where they are on merit?
I'd like to think that the whole Cabinet (including Gormley & Ryan), and indeed the whole Government are tarnished by this constant backing of Bert and failure to act. However, I have no faith in the electorate in this country to make the connection - afterall, if connections with dodgy FF leaders was a problem Ahern himself would hardly have made it would he?
Cowen is just a loadmouth bully, if FG are scared of him then they've bigger problems. He has no great record to show - did nothing Health, mismanaged the last growls of the Celtic Tiger, and is incapable of managing the result of his inaction now. Actually maybe FF should be worried if he's the great white hope?
I wouldn't be surprised if the skip a generation away from the sleaze to Lenihan. I think he's a spoofer, but he comes across better than most of the cabinet and hasn't been in cabinet long enough to have as poor a record as the rest. FG to then fook it up by going for Hayes in response, with Bruton the best leader they never had. Labour to bottle it and not force a Grand Coalition between the FF and FG. That concludes the 2012 election results :)
jebus
21/03/2008, 12:57 PM
Not much left to say on Bertie bar saying that anyone who still defends him is a moron
dahamsta
21/03/2008, 1:56 PM
Of course none of the Fianna Failers have the balls to defend him anyway, they've been consistently covering their slimey asses with the "wait for the tribunal to finish" line. The only ones that come close are the "outside the remit" fellas. That line is wearing increasingly thin.
adam
rebs23
21/03/2008, 2:11 PM
The crooked slimeball just has to go. Its unbelievable that the Greens are keeping this man in power.
I now realise why he denied sterling transactions. You can't explain sterling transactions away as personla savings or salary cheques.
The logical conclusion now is that Seems Bertie is now on the chop for money laundering & tax evasion. Hardly the first time he guilty of tax evasion but harder to explain sterling sums. Maybe he will come up with another Manchester dinner hand outs? Can this explain payments spread across 6 months.
Bertie has behaved very cowardly in allowing his former secretary almost dig herself in perjury situation defending his lies. :(
He will probably hang on & try to get the Lisbon Treaty pased before he slips away during the Dail summer holidays...?
ramsfan
24/03/2008, 5:21 AM
he really hung his secretary out to dry the poor woman was a sacrificial lamb to the slaughter, he is quickly falling into the rayburke charlie haughey class
Bertie had some of his salary cheques converted into sterling, changed back into punts, and then lodged to building society accounts. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-to-claim-salary-converted-into-sterling-1324922.html)
Aah, that clears up that matter so.
Lionel Ritchie
25/03/2008, 8:40 AM
Christ he could've at least tried a "sold my car to some guy from Newry" story.
John83
25/03/2008, 10:23 AM
Bertie had some of his salary cheques converted into sterling, changed back into punts, and then lodged to building society accounts. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-to-claim-salary-converted-into-sterling-1324922.html)
Aah, that clears up that matter so.
Damn. I had money on, "Fell off the back of a lorry."
jebus
25/03/2008, 12:15 PM
Bertie had some of his salary cheques converted into sterling, changed back into punts, and then lodged to building society accounts. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-to-claim-salary-converted-into-sterling-1324922.html)
Aah, that clears up that matter so.
This gets more like a South Park episode each week
An outline of Mr Ahern's planned new strategy was provided yesterday by a highly-placed source. But he declined to specify why the Taoiseach would convert Irish cheques into sterling, then reconvert them to Irish pounds and lodge them, after paying foreign exchange charges and commissions on each transaction.
"There are perfectly legitimate reasons why things happened the way they did," the source insisted.
Reads like "perfectly legitimate reasons which we have not found yet, but give us time..." Maybe they will have a competition for any one that can suggest the best reason. Converting money into different currencies & moving between accounts is standard money laundering practice.
Of course to prove this he will need to show records of transactions showing his salary cheques converted into sterling. He will need transactions within the the correct time frame & also need Irish Permanent record showing the exact conversion. Without access to the building society records no guarantees this can hold up when examined.
Seems to be classic example of using a lie to hide a lie. When that does not work need a new lie & so on...
Superhoops
25/03/2008, 6:37 PM
Reads like "perfectly legitimate reasons which we have not found yet, but give us time..." Maybe they will have a competition for any one that can suggest the best reason. Converting money into different currencies & moving between accounts is standard money laundering practice....
Sure what's all the fuss about, it's only a few auld quid ;)
Mary Hanafin said he has the 100% support of the cabinet.
Seems the Taoiseach is not going to clarify recent inaccuracies until his next Tribunal appearance in 2 months. is that enough time to come up with a verifiable reason/excuse?
BTW FF posters have been very quiet since the secretary incident occured...
Mary Harney isn't so sure.
"What I am saying is that the public disquiet has to be dispelled, and that is a matter for the Taoiseach, and only the Taoiseach can dispel that public disquiet" (http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojeyideyey/)
A bit guarded, but better than nothing.
Mary Harney isn't so sure.
"What I am saying is that the public disquiet has to be dispelled, and that is a matter for the Taoiseach, and only the Taoiseach can dispel that public disquiet" (http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojeyideyey/)
A bit guarded, but better than nothing.
PDs growing a pair?
Let's see what the Greens follow that with. Another 'wait and see' I reckon.
monutdfc
27/03/2008, 3:30 PM
John sees Mary, but she's definitely holding an ace having got there before him
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0327/mahon.html
I'd say he wasn't expecting that from Mary, he might have taken her for granted as she is so determined to push through her Americanisation of our health services.
The Greens will come out of this coalition the worse for wear due to Gormley's delayed reaction on the Tribunal and their flip flopping on issues such as the contruction work in Tara since they have been in power. They'll go down the drain with the PDs once Fianna Fail is done with them I reckon
Lim till i die
27/03/2008, 6:44 PM
The Greens will come out of this coalition the worse for wear due to Gormley's delayed reaction on the Tribunal and their flip flopping on issues such as the contruction work in Tara since they have been in power. They'll go down the drain with the PDs once Fianna Fail is done with them I reckon
The best thing to come out of this whole mess is that the useless, yuppie, good for nothing, pontificating, out of touch with reality, painfully middle class Green Party is finished as a political force in this country.
And lets hope it stays that way for a long, long time.
The best thing to come out of this whole mess is that the useless, yuppie, good for nothing, pontificating, out of touch with reality, painfully middle class Green Party is finished as a political force in this country.
And lets hope it stays that way for a long, long time.
Agreed, actually now that I think of it, Bertie has single handedly taken out the two most pointless parties in Ireland in the PDs and the Greens, if he destroys Fianna Fail, and damages the creditability of big parties in general, ala Fine Gael, then he'll be a personal hero of mine :)
SligoBrewer
30/03/2008, 6:57 PM
Agreed, actually now that I think of it, Bertie has single handedly taken out the two most pointless parties in Ireland in the PDs and the Greens, if he destroys Fianna Fail, and damages the creditability of big parties in general, ala Fine Gael, then he'll be a personal hero of mine :)
What party do you vote for if you mind me asking?
Labour?
Socialist?
Of course to prove this he will need to show records of transactions showing his salary cheques converted into sterling. He will need transactions within the the correct time frame & also need Irish Permanent record showing the exact conversion. Without access to the building society records no guarantees this can hold up when examined.
I'm sure these transactions will be at either AIB or BofI. And we've already seen how great their record keeping, and their managers memories are, in regard to Bertie. So unless this is some kind of bridge too far for them, expect alot of "probablies" but no "yes we have the records, no the transactions didn't take place". That's not how they are operating in this case...
The Greens will come out of this coalition the worse for wear due to Gormley's delayed reaction on the Tribunal and their flip flopping on issues such as the contruction work in Tara since they have been in power. They'll go down the drain with the PDs once Fianna Fail is done with them I reckon
Not so sure - they seemed to have done alright with the policy of saying they weren't the watchdogs of FF and concentrating on their portfolio's. As ever, the electorate a bit absent minded about what they were saying pre-election. However, having eventually been forced into saying something on it by the O'Malley statement (NOT by Harney who had no choice to say something), Gormless has opened the Greens to questioning the whole time. His mistake could've been to comment at all beyond the usual "we have faith in the tribunal and will await it's report". The public don't care about principles - yesterdays further rises in the opinion polls for the greens yesterday show that.
btw Anyone see Coughlan last night on The Week in Politics? Wouldn't say she believed Bert and also bizarrely tried to claim that all these questions about Bert were out before the election. Lets be clear, only the Manchester dig out money was in the public domain pre-election - he wasn't judged on what we know now.
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