Ahern's Historic Speech to the House of Commons

[GavinZac]

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker, Prime Minister, Distinguished Guests, I am grateful for your welcome and I am honoured to be the first Taoiseach to speak here at the heart of British parliamentary democracy.

But I speak not for myself today; I speak for the Irish people and for the history and the best hopes of our two island nations, yours and mine.

Today, following as it does so many remarkable days, is a new and glad departure in an old and extraordinary relationship.

Ours is a close, complex and difficult history. But now with energy and resolve this generation is leaving the past behind, building friendship and laying the foundation for a lasting partnership of common interests between our two islands.

For over two centuries, great Irishmen came to Westminster to be a voice for the voiceless of Ireland and at times a conscience for Britain too.

I am thinking above all of Daniel O'Connell and of Charles Stewart Parnell, but the tradition is long and noble. And their struggle to further the cause of the Irish nation in this parliament resonated across the Irish Sea through the lives of every Irish person.

Those who travelled that sea to take a seat in this place believed in the proposition that democratic politics, however imperfect, is not, first and foremost, a career or a means of acquiring power. Rather it was, and is, the surest way to secure and advance a fair society.

This year, Britain commemorates the 200th anniversary of the Act of this Parliament that ended the appalling wrong that was the Atlantic slave trade.

This happened despite powerful interests that argued the financial costs of abolition. But in one of the most remarkable examples of a collective political act on moral grounds, those interests were overcome. It was a moment of great moral authority and one of the great stepping-stones to freedom.

In the words of Daniel O'Connell who died 160 years ago today:

'There is nothing politically right that is morally wrong.'

And it was this faith too that was turned to the cause of the rights of the Irish people.

It was O'Connell who built a mass civil rights movement to achieve Catholic emancipation, and then to take on the cause of the repeal of the Act of Union.

The movement was founded firmly on principles of non-violence, and became an inspiration for peoples everywhere, confirming the power of an idea that again and again has changed the world. That idea is an inspiration to Irish people to this day.

O'Connell was also the champion of a wider and generous liberal tradition which looked far beyond Ireland's shores to right injustice and support the weak and the poor.

Two generations later, Parnell and his colleagues used their disciplined mastery of the parliamentary system to force the issue of Home Rule to the center of British politics and in so doing created the first modern political party in these islands.

We remember too that it was Ireland that first elected a woman, Constance Markiewicz, to the House of Commons - although she chose instead to take her seat in the first Dáil as elected by the Irish people.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

The historical relationship of Ireland and Britain too often seemed as if it could be more accurately measured out in repression and rebellions, over cycles of decades and centuries. Conflicts have become synonymous with years - 1169, 1690, 1798, 1916 and into the recent agony of the Troubles.

It is a litany that too often seemed to confirm the inevitability of conflict between us.

But, it was never the whole story - and now in our day and generation, we have seen the dawning of a new era.

In an act full of the symbolism of new days of hope and promise in Ireland, I had the honour last week to welcome the new First Minister of Northern Ireland, the Right Honourable Ian Paisley, MP, to the site of the Battle of the Boyne.

This was a battle for power in these islands and also part of a wider European conflict. Its outcome resounds through the centuries of Irish and British history to this very day.

That time marked the beginning of an unbroken period of parliamentary democracy in this country. But its legacy in Ireland has always been a matter of deep contention and division.

It is surely a miracle of our age that the undisputed leader of Ulster unionism can meet with the leader of the Irish Government, on that battlefield, in a spirit of friendship and mutual respect.

The intertwined history of Ireland and Britain was - let us not deny the truth - in large measure indeed a story of division and conflict, of conquest, suppression and resistance.

But, of course, there are episodes in that story which are a source of pride - just as there are others that are rightly a source of regret and anguish.

Last year, I was proud to commemorate the 90th Anniversary of the 1916 Rising. It was a hinge of history - and the turning of events has continued since.

Those who fought did so in pursuit of a state which, in the words of the 1916 Proclamation, 'guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts cherishing all of the children of the nation equally'.

The Rising did not have immediate universal support, and was opposed, at least initially, by many of those Irishmen who served in this Parliament, just as many in Ireland were shocked by the heavy-handed exercise of power by the British authorities in its wake.

Irish nationalism has its heroes as does unionism. We need to acknowledge each others pride in our separate and divided past.

In 1998, in a groundbreaking act of recognition of our shared journey, President Mary McAleese and Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth jointly opened the Memorial Peace Park in Messines - a requiem to the 200,000 young men from across the island of Ireland, Catholic and Protestant, North and South, who fought in the First World War, side by side. Some 50,000 did not return.

Last year, we renewed this tribute in Dublin - and paid homage at home to the spirit of an imperishable heroism - through a national commemoration of the 90th anniversary of the battle of the Somme.

In another shining example of how we can engage with difficult chapters of history without descending into spirals of accusation, I remember the brave and generous initiative of the Prime Minister in acknowledging the failures of those governing in London at the time of the Great Famine in Ireland.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

Of course, the subject of Ireland was not always welcome in this Place. I recall the words of Gladstone, who in November, 1890, noted that:

'Since the month of December, 1885, my whole political life has been governed by a supreme regard to the Irish question. For every day, I may say, of these five years, we have been engaged in laboriously rolling up-hill the stone of Sisyphus.'

Prime Minister Blair and I can certainly empathise with this!

The so-called 'Irish Question' was for a long time shorthand in these halls for a nuisance, a problem, a danger. A recurring crisis that was debated here, but not where its effects were most felt.

Today, I can stand here and say that the 'Irish Question' as understood then has been transformed by the Good Friday Agreement.

The Agreement has delivered peace and promise to Ireland by accommodating the rights, the interests and the legitimate aspirations of all. It represents the triumph of common interests over inherited divisions.

It is not an end of history. But it is a new beginning.

It is an unchallengeable consensus on how any future change in the status of Northern Ireland will be effected: only with consent freely given, and with full respect for the rights of all traditions and identities on the island.

As an Irish republican, it is my passionate hope that we will see the island of Ireland united in peace. But I will continue to oppose with equal determination any effort to impose unity through violence or the threat of violence.

Irish Republicanism is inherently democratic and seeks to unite - in their common interests - Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter.

That is the principle on which I stand.

None of what has been accomplished in Northern Ireland in the past decade could have happened without the most beneficial transformation in British-Irish relations in over 800 years.

The depth and complexity of relationships between our islands generation after generation defy summary or platitudes.

But now let us consign arguments over the past to the annals of the past, as we make history instead of being doomed to repeat it.

Ours must and will be the last generation to feel the pain and anger of old quarrels.

We cannot look back through eras far removed from the standards and promise of today, through the very pages of our common past, and tear out the bloodstained chapters.

But that does not mean we should write them into the story of our future. Violence is part of our shared past that lasted too long. Now we close the chapter, we move on, and it will remain there as it was written.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

I stand before you as the elected leader of a young, modern and successful country. The gathering pace of change in Ireland since independence, and in this generation especially, has been extraordinary.

We have seized our opportunities and honoured our heritage. Ireland is a small country, but today we are one of the most globalised and enterprising in the world.

We have taken a place on the world stage in the United Nations and the European Union. We have built a country of ideas, energy and of confidence.

[GavinZac]

And it is this self-confidence that allows us, still conscious of our history but not captured by it, to build a new and lasting partnership of common interest that fully respects identity and sovereignty, with you our nearest neighbour.

Today our partnership in the world is expressed most especially in the European Union. Our joint membership has served as a vital catalyst for the building of a deeper relationship between our two islands. Europe forms a key part of our shared future. The European Union has acted as a potent example of a new political model that enables old enemies to become partners in progress.

On the world stage too we have a shared commitment to democracy, to human rights and to international development.

And we stand together to make poverty history.

I think of the power of our example - of the history we have written together in Northern Ireland. No two conflicts are exactly the same and no two solutions will ever be alike. But the world has watched as we grappled with our past and made our peace with one another. Now our two governments can share our past experience and newfound hope with others who are caught up in conflict and feel despair.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

Our relationship is a partnership of people first and foremost.

No two nations and no two peoples have closer ties of history and geography and of family and friendship.

Emigration was for too long a recurring theme of the Irish saga, from the horrors of the Great Famine, to dark economic times in the 20th Century.

Many Irish people came to this country as emigrants. And today there are hundreds of thousands of Irish-born people living in Britain today. Theirs were stories of dislocation, and stories of aspiration, and then of new lives built, new families created, new strands woven into the fabric of both our national identities.

Today, there are over a hundred members of this Parliament with an Irish background. And there are millions more like them in Britain, who have gone on to new levels of success with each new generation.

And, of course, the tide was not all one way. There are over 100,000 British citizens in Ireland now, a most welcome part of an ever more diverse population.

British settlement, organised and otherwise, has given the island of Ireland a British tradition too - not just in history and language, borders and politics, but in a thriving community of unionist people proud of who they are, where they came from, and what they hope for.

They are a living bridge between us.

The Irish Government fully respects their rights and identity.

We value their voice, their vision and their future contribution to the life of the island of Ireland in whatever way it should develop.

Our economic partnership has always been, and remains, a cornerstone of our prosperity and our friendship.

Irish and British people are driving the economies of both our islands with efficiency and enterprise, regardless of politics or borders.

The scale of our economic partnership is impressive and is immensely important for all our people.

British exports to Ireland alone, are more than double that of British exports to China, India, Brazil and Mexico combined. And Britain takes almost half of our food exports and half the exports of our indigenous companies.

And the achievements we have seen in Northern Ireland will open up still greater opportunities for economic cooperation between both islands and both parts of Ireland.

The people of these islands have woven a rich tapestry of culture over the centuries. This has given rise to a partnership of culture that is renowned across the world.

One of the most creative moments in human history was the meeting between the English language and the Irish people.

It has given us some of the great works of world literature - of Jonathan Swift, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, George Bernard Shaw, William Butler Yeats, Samuel Beckett, John McGahern and many, many others. Not the least of those was Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who served in this House, was born in Dorset Street in my constituency and is now buried nearby in Poets Corner at Westminster Abbey.

They all found their genius in the English language, but they drew on a perspective that was uniquely Irish.

Today, a vibrant cultural life is shared by both our countries across every imaginable field - in music, dance, education, theatre, film and sport.

In culture, as in sport, we share and together enjoy so much.

And in all these areas, too, our endeavours are not divorced from our history, but are built on it.

Earlier this year, the Irish and English rugby teams met in the magnificent headquarters of the Gaelic Athletic Association at Croke Park in Dublin. It was a match played and watched on what is now a field of dreams, but was once the very earth of past bloodshed.

But it was a match played in the spirit of sport. No one forgot the shadows of history, but everyone was living in the sunlight of that day.

Of all these bonds - of family and friendship, of commerce and culture - the greatest of all is our partnership of peace.

We have shown that even the seemingly intractable can be overcome - that peace is not impossible and conflict is not inevitable.

We have learned, as Seamus Heaney wrote:

'Even if the hopes you started out with are dashed, hope has to be maintained'.

The Anglo-Irish Agreement, the Downing Street Declaration and the Good Friday Agreement: many of you here have been participants and makers of this history. All of you have kept hope.

Peace in Ireland has been the work of a generation. Today, I salute all those who helped to lay the foundations for what has now taken shape. In doing so, I acknowledge the work over so many years of the British-Irish Parliamentary Body and also our great and valued friends in the United States who have been with us at all times on the long journey.

When Prime Minister Blair and I started out together ten years ago, we were able to build on the courageous early steps that Sir John Major and his colleagues had taken with us.

But the contribution of Prime Minister Blair has been exceptional.

This was not a task he had to take on and not one that promised quick or easy rewards. He took it on simply because there was a chance that a great good could be achieved.

Tony Blair has been a true friend to me and a true friend to Ireland. He has an honoured place in Irish hearts and in Irish history.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

Nine years ago, the people of the island of Ireland democratically endorsed the Good Friday Agreement, a clear command to all political leaders to advance the work of peace.

In March this year, the people of Northern Ireland confirmed that command through the ballot box and set their seal on the path of political progress.

There are certain days which define an era. More rarely there are days that define the next, that embody the turn of the tide.

Too many Irish days have done so through tragedy and violence.

Tuesday 8 May in Belfast was a day when we witnessed events that will truly define our time and the next.

Shared devolved government, commanding support from both communities and all the parties in Northern Ireland, is now in place. Now at last the full genius and full potential of the Good Friday Agreement will unfold in the interests of all the peoples of these islands.

Yes, there will be challenges ahead. But these challenges can now be faced in a climate of peace and from a foundation of partnership.

There are real issues on which the people of Northern Ireland disagree. Some are the sort that face every government, and it is now the business of their politicians to find solutions based on practicality and compromise.

Others are more fundamental issues of political and cultural identity.

But we are now in an era of agreement - of new politics and new realities.

The world has seen Ireland's economic achievements. There is no reason why a peaceful and stable Northern Ireland should not achieve similar success. We are ready to be a partner and friend on the path to economic growth. Both parts of the island of Ireland will gain and grow.

The Irish Government has demonstrated its commitment by announcing investment in important and practical projects that will support development and growth in Northern Ireland.

Chancellor Gordon Brown's financial package expresses Britain's clear commitment. Now let us move forward with strong practical support and increasing political confidence.

The tide of history can both ebb and flow and with it our hopes and dreams. But last week's events are powerful evidence that we are moving with the tide of lasting change.

There is now real strength in the consensus on the way forward.

We know the unique and delicate balance that binds this process together and we are committed to doing everything in our power to protect what has been achieved.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

In our impatience to build a better future we must remember those who have died and remember those who mourn.

The conflict has left over 3,700 dead and thousands more seriously injured during our lifetimes. This appalling loss has left deep scars which cannot easily be healed.

I know that these are not empty words to Members of this Parliament, who have also experienced tragedy and personal loss at first hand. I remember those killed and maimed at Brighton and I remember Airey Neave MP, who was murdered so close to where we are today.

There is a gnawing hunger for the truth about the loss of loved ones. The conflict has left many unanswered questions in its wake.

Some of these are the subjects of ongoing or promised inquiries. In these days of hope and promise we know the deep hurt and pain that linger in the hearts of so many and for whom the journey of healing and reconciliation will never be easy.

[GavinZac]

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

The relationship between Britain and Ireland has changed fundamentally for the better. It is and will remain vital for both our countries. The success we have seen - in re-imagining British-Irish relations and in establishing peace in Northern Ireland - is not the end, but only the beginning of what we can achieve together.

Our mutual relations merit priority at the highest level. We must sustain our hard-won achievements on Northern Ireland.

Remembering where we have come from, we must never, ever, take for granted the stability and the hope that are now taking root in Northern Ireland.

We have built a remarkable foundation for a whole new level of cooperation between our two countries.

For decades our relations have been filtered through the prism of conflict. Now, building on the peace and progress of the last decade, we can begin to pay greater attention to the wider partnership of common interests between our two islands.

Mr Speaker, Lord Speaker,

We can all contribute to peace, in ways that are great or small, in acts of cooperation and respect, of dialogue and of resolve.

This is a test for all of us.

I call to mind the words of another great Irishman Edmund Burke, who served in this parliament: 'No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little'.

So now we look back at history not to justify but to learn, and we look forward to the future in terms not of struggle and victories to be won, but of enduring peace and progress to be achieved together.

In that spirit, I close by recalling the words of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the first American President to speak to the Dáil. He was an Irish-American who had deep connections of feeling and experience with Britain as well.

On that day in Dublin, President Kennedy called Ireland 'an isle of destiny' and said that 'when our hour has come we will have something to give the world'.

Today I can say to this Parliament at Westminster as John Kennedy said in Dublin, 'Ireland's hour has come'.

It came, not as victory or defeat, but as a shared future for all.

Solidarity has made us stronger.

Reconciliation has brought us closer.

Ireland's hour has come: a time of peace, of prosperity, of old values and new beginnings.

This is the great lesson and the great gift of Irish history.

This is what Ireland can give to the world.

Thank you.

---
First off, apologies for the three part message but there are restrictions on the length of a post.
Apart from being called a "dissenter", i thought that was a fantastic speech. I know Calcio Jack has already taken issue with, not so much a statement but an omission, are there any other thoughts?

[kingdom hoop]

Tear-jerking. Inspirational.

Vote Bertie's speech writer!

[Calcio Jack]

---
First off, apologies for the three part message but there are restrictions on the length of a post.
Apart from being called a "dissenter", i thought that was a fantastic speech. I know Calcio Jack has already taken issue with, not so much a statement but an omission, are there any other thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Anyone know as to who wrote the speech... my money is on Martin Manseragh... or does anyone think Bertie wrote it himself... again before I'm accused of anything... I of course presume that Bertie like every other politician worldwide has a team of speech writers aka known as 'special advisors' whom we taxpayers stump up an annual salary of approx €120k each... pity such an eloquent speech was delivered in a ' dis, dat dese and dem style' the least one should expect is that our PM should be at least able to converse in a manner that is understandable

[GavinZac]

pity such an eloquent speech was delivered in a ' dis, dat dese and dem style' the least one should expect is that our PM should be at least able to converse in a manner that is understandable
Would you prefer he put on airs and fake an accent?

[SÓC]

Great speach...I couldnt find the Irish language part posted above but I may have missed it.

Bertie delivered it well in his own querky way.

The very fact that he spoke in Irish was very symbolic too with talk that the UK is going to officially recognise Irish as a working language in the North

[Calcio Jack]

Would you prefer he put on airs and fake an accent?

No but I would expect that he should be able to speak correctly and IMO what some might refer to as being his querky way is IMO just pure bad diction which is inexcusable and let's us down... if a head of another English speaking state addressed the Dail in such a manner we wouldn't be impressed

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Would you prefer he put on airs and fake an accent?
Hear, hear. Nothing wrong with the man's natural accent, or with any man's natural accent, for that matter.

Class speech all right.


One of the most creative moments in human history was the meeting between the English language and the Irish people [...] Jonathan Swift, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, George Bernard Shaw, William Butler Yeats, Samuel Beckett, John McGahern and many, many others [...] They all found their genius in the English language [...]
...but this strikes me as nonsense. Of those, only McGahern and possibly Joyce and Sheridan's ould one were of a people who could claim to have ever had a "meeting" with the English language (where's O'Casey, an' he with more claim than annybody to have written Irish English? Or Austin Clarke, if you're talking of a meeting of styles?). The rest of them were of ancient Anglophone stock (or at least it certainly wasn't Ireland in which they first met the English language) and were indistinguishable from English writers, in style if not in quality or subject matter. None of them wrote in any kind of real Irish idiom, as far as I can see, unless for mimicry or for effect.

Apart from Beckett, obviously, who mined his natural Hiberno-English before he got fed up and "found his genius in the French language". :rolleyes: What were Yeats or Swift doing before they "found their genius in the English language"? What a remarkable thing to say.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Great speach...I couldnt find the Irish language part posted above but I may have missed it.

Haha. To be fair to GavinZac the Irish Times never recorded it either. So it musn't have happened :eek: .

[WeAreRovers]

Talk about nit-picking from Calcio and Erstwhile. My over-riding thought is thank Christ it wasn't Inda Kinny representing us. Then again no FG taoiseach would have got us this far in the peace process so it wouldn't have happened.

KOH

[OneRedArmy]

I'm just glad he didn't wear mustard coloured trousers again.......

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Talk about nit-picking from Calcio and Erstwhile.
Ah no, it was a great speech and fair play to them.

You're right about poor old Enda, looking on the wings ... and Labour must be going spare that it was their own comrades gave Bertie this election boost.

[jebus]

Election boost? Only morons are impressed by a man being able to read from a sheet, judge the man on his policies

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Election boost? Only morons are impressed by a man being able to read from a sheet, judge the man on his policies
Morons are allowed to vote, too.

[jebus]

Morons are allowed to vote, too.

Thats a given when you realise how long Fianna Fail have been running this country

[Calcio Jack]

Talk about nit-picking from Calcio and Erstwhile. My over-riding thought is thank Christ it wasn't Inda Kinny representing us. Then again no FG taoiseach would have got us this far in the peace process so it wouldn't have happened.

KOH


My comments re the'famine' and what was left out I stand over.

Have no problem with Bertie's accent or the the tone of his voice.... but do have a problem with the fact that he doesn't seem capable of speaking correctly as I say this, that, these, those and them etc should be pronounced correctly surely ?

As for whether Inda Kenny or anyone else would of done a better or worse job yesterday... well that's pure conjecture and has nothing to do with the fact that Bertie when he open's his mouth is incapable of speaking in a acceptable manner.

Whether or not Kenny would of done more or less to forward the'peace process' surely nothing to do with yesterday but something on which we can all vote on next week

[crc]

If anyone doubts that Bertie didn't write the speach himself, you should listen to the audio file at RTÉ.ie (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0515/ahernb.html) (tá an piosa as Gaeilge ansin comh mhaith, ar Tony Blair agus an phróiseas síochána)

For example, the sentence: "The historical relationship of Ireland and Britain too often seemed as if it could be more accurately measured out in repression and rebellions..."
Bertie puts the pause in the wrong place, i.e. "...more accurately measured [pause] out in repression and rebellions..."

There are other examples.

Fair enough, all major politicians have speach writers, but he could at least have read through the text a couple of times before he delivered it to the members of the Houses of Commons and of Lords!

Its a good speach, I'd be interested to know who did write it, but it does sound a lot like Manseragh. On a side note, I detest the widespread use of the term "island of Ireland"; if one wants to refer to the whole island what's wrong with calling it 'Ireland'? Its creeping use leads to stupid things like a friend of mine saying we were leaving 'Ireland' when we were driving from Monaghan to Armagh!

[galwayhoop]

the least one should expect is that our PM should be at least able to converse in a manner that is understandable

:eek:

i think you'll find his title is 'An Taoiseach'

and what is wrong with an Irish man speaking in his local accent with the colloquialisms that go with it.

too many so called Irish people are embarrassed by their accents and dialect and much prefer listening to the queens English and accent.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Have no problem with Bertie's accent or the the tone of his voice.... but do have a problem with the fact that he doesn't seem capable of speaking correctly as I say this, that, these, those and them etc should be pronounced correctly surely ?

"Correctly"? Received Pronunciation, you mean? Standard British English? Why the hell would he? Should he pronounce his own name "Bahtie Ahahn"?

He is pronouncing them (those words there) correctly, in full accordance with the 'rules' of the type of English he speaks, which, like the majority of spoken English on this island, does not realize -th- as any kind of a fricative in any position.

If he was writing d or t where there should be a th then you might have a point. The page needs universal rules much more than the mouth, face, and eyes do.

[galwayhoop]

If he was writing d or t where there should be a th then you might have a point. The page needs universal rules much more than the mouth, face, and eyes do.

spot on

generally we (irish people) say our 'th' as a 'd'
cockneys say 'th' as a 'f'
local accents and pronunciation differ - get over it lads

[Calcio Jack]

spot on

generally we (irish people) say our 'th' as a 'd'
cockneys say 'th' as a 'f'
local accents and pronunciation differ - get over it lads

Just because something is done generally doesn't make it correct

As for the comment from E/Boz asking whether by correctly do I mean "Standard British English" the answer is no. I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way. The fact that you are trying to argue that Bertie was correct in accordance with the 'rules' of the type of English he speaks...well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.

So if you like the way he speaks using his 'rules' etc , so be it but if like me you prefer to hear language spoken correctly then he won't do much for you, except IMO make you chuckle now and again at the man's lack of style.

[osarusan]

I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way.

There are no guidelines as to how to pronounce words correctly which are universal, as regional dialects make it impossible. Obviously, that doesnt mean that anybody's pronunciation must be considered correct, but unless somebody pronounces words differently from the majority of his local / regional peers, then you cannot say his pronunciation is flawed. I dont this this case applies to Bertie.

Check out "ebonics" for a slightly different slant on the same issues.

[osarusan]

well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.


And how he pronounces the speech will not affect the grammar, nor will the grammar afect how he pronounces the words.

(Mods - feel free to merge with my earlier post)

[galwayhoop]

Just because something is done generally doesn't make it correct

As for the comment from E/Boz asking whether by correctly do I mean "Standard British English" the answer is no. I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way. The fact that you are trying to argue that Bertie was correct in accordance with the 'rules' of the type of English he speaks...well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.

So if you like the way he speaks using his 'rules' etc , so be it but if like me you prefer to hear language spoken correctly then he won't do much for you, except IMO make you chuckle now and again at the man's lack of style.

especially as our PM :rolleyes:
unfortunately we can't hear you speaking the queens english on this forum calico. :rolleyes:

[Calcio Jack]

especially as our PM :rolleyes:
unfortunately we can't hear you speaking the queens english on this forum calico. :rolleyes:

Get over the PM reference.... I used it purely on the basisof a quick abbreviation.... but if it causes anyone problems I'll not use it in future

What does it matter as to how I sound, I'm not the one who was representing us, Bertie was... however for what it's worth IMO both my accent and use of the english language are much better that Bertie's... then again I was raised a five minute walk from Milltown so guess some of us are luckier than others by birth....

[Calcio Jack]

There are no guidelines as to how to pronounce words correctly which are universal, as regional dialects make it impossible. Obviously, that doesnt mean that anybody's pronunciation must be considered correct, but unless somebody pronounces words differently from the majority of his local / regional peers, then you cannot say his pronunciation is flawed. I dont this this case applies to Bertie.

Check out "ebonics" for a slightly different slant on the same issues.

IMO there are 'guidelines' aka known as elocution lessons... maybe Bertie should invest in some... he or should I say the taxpayer foots a large bill every year to pay for his make up , so he is interested in his image.... or maybe he likes to put out that he is an ordinary guy with an ordinary accent.... pity he doesn't also operate his finances in the manner of an ordinary guy

[GavinZac]

CJ, i specifically mentioned you in the thread as i thought you might have something interesting to say with regard to the speech. Please, drop the subject of his elocution as it just looks like you've a grudge against him.

[Calcio Jack]

CJ, i specifically mentioned you in the thread as i thought you might have something interesting to say with regard to the speech. Please, drop the subject of his elocution as it just looks like you've a grudge against him.

As I originally said I thought the speach was very good... and only had two issues with it the famine ref (lack of) and the delivery style.

Re the general content of the speech I thought it was an excellent whistlestop tour of the history of the relationship between the two islands and was very well crafted.

I think it is great that we have moved to a position where we have an excellent relationship with our nearest neigbours and as the son of a man who was involved in the fight with the 'tans... I think it is great that in one generation we have moved to that position.

As for Bertie I don't have a grudge against him but I do hold the view that he is not suitable for the role of PM oops I mean Taoisceach... but that's a debate that will be resolved next week

[galwayhoop]

.... pity he doesn't also operate his finances in the manner of an ordinary guy

i think you'll find that most TD's, who have been brought in front of tribunals, operate their finances in a similar way to the ordinary guy. ;)

do you really think that any person who can get to the top political post in the country and stay their for a decade will not have needed to call in or give out a few favours at some stage or another. as a comparison look at the directors of any major company within the state and ask yourself if these guys have never given or received a favour. look at your neighbour or friend and wonder if he has ever earned a few quid and not declared it to the tax man. especially in the 70's and 80's when the country was on it's knees. without the so-called 'brown envelopes' people with money would not have kept it in this country and instead invested it overseas.

i am most certainly not saying it was right but it was an entirely different culture in those days. most people had to move overseas to earn a living, myself included, and the outlook here was very bleak indeed. things are relatively good now and there is no need for under the counter activities but it was not like that 20 years ago. a bit like the speech by bertie about the changing relationship between ireland and britain, we are more mature now and there is room for negotiation on both sides. well think of our economy in the 70's and 80's when the country didn't have a pot to p1ss in and some developers looked to grease a few hands to 'get things done' well had they not then the money, like the people, would have had to leave the country. it is easy to look back post-celtic tiger at these goings on with scorn but to people who lived through those times i can understand how and why it was done. again i am not making these people out to be knights in shining armour - we all know that there was massive gain in it for all of them - but had this culture not existed then i doube the celtic tiger would have come to life either.

[Billsthoughts]

Have to say I didnt like the speech at all. One of things I hate about Irish people abroad is they think the world cares about what happens on our little island or that our history is somehow more complex than any other countries.
And it is that kinda vibe I get when reading the speech. I know their is a bit of context to it but still....didnt like it. For a true reflection of where we stand in world thinking see Eurovision :) .

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Have to say I didnt like the speech at all. One of things I hate about Irish people abroad is they think the world cares about what happens on our little island or that our history is somehow more complex than any other countries.
And it is that kinda vibe I get when reading the speech. I know their is a bit of context to it but still....didnt like it. For a true reflection of where we stand in world thinking see Eurovision :) .
In fairness he was invited to address the British parliament as leader of some of the Irish nation specifically to discuss how they wrecked our country and how we're now apparently over it. He wasn't hijacking a UN Conference on Darfur.

:D Agree with you on the Eurovision.

[Billsthoughts]

In fairness he was invited to address the British parliament as leader of some of the Irish nation specifically to discuss how they wrecked our country and how we're now apparently over it. He wasn't hijacking a UN Conference on Darfur.

:D Agree with you on the Eurovision.


Like I said I know there was a bit of context to it but I still think its a bit cringe inducing. thats just my opinion; others thought it was a good speech tho.

[Calcio Jack]

i think you'll find that most TD's, who have been brought in front of tribunals, operate their finances in a similar way to the ordinary guy. ;)

do you really think that any person who can get to the top political post in the country and stay their for a decade will not have needed to call in or give out a few favours at some stage or another. as a comparison look at the directors of any major company within the state and ask yourself if these guys have never given or received a favour. look at your neighbour or friend and wonder if he has ever earned a few quid and not declared it to the tax man. especially in the 70's and 80's when the country was on it's knees. without the so-called 'brown envelopes' people with money would not have kept it in this country and instead invested it overseas.

i am most certainly not saying it was right but it was an entirely different culture in those days. most people had to move overseas to earn a living, myself included, and the outlook here was very bleak indeed. things are relatively good now and there is no need for under the counter activities but it was not like that 20 years ago. a bit like the speech by bertie about the changing relationship between ireland and britain, we are more mature now and there is room for negotiation on both sides. well think of our economy in the 70's and 80's when the country didn't have a pot to p1ss in and some developers looked to grease a few hands to 'get things done' well had they not then the money, like the people, would have had to leave the country. it is easy to look back post-celtic tiger at these goings on with scorn but to people who lived through those times i can understand how and why it was done. again i am not making these people out to be knights in shining armour - we all know that there was massive gain in it for all of them - but had this culture not existed then i doube the celtic tiger would have come to life either.


Bertie was taking dig outs during the mid 90's not the late 70's/80's.... and if you think that "under the counter activities" have ceased, well maybe you should ask yourself what are the builders etc doing in the FF tent in Galway during race week.... Kenny report not implemented I wonder why ????

[galwayhoop]

.... and if you think that "under the counter activities" have ceased, well maybe you should ask yourself what are the builders etc doing in the FF tent in Galway during race week....

i doubt very much that the under the counter activities you talk of happen in the current climate. i know for a fact that there have been payments in the past but politicians will not risk taking them nowadays - not for the want of trying from people offening them either by all accounts.

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....

as regards the FF tent last year - it was hardly a bunch of builders handing over bags of money to FF TD's ffs. many businessmen & women from Galway and beyond were there along with FF party members. many builders are invited to these shin-digs as they are involved in business but among others present there were solicitors, accountants, publicans, auctioneers, business consultants, hoteliers.... i could go on. are all of these people lining the pockets of FF?

also the building trade's annual holidays are during Galway Race Week and half the people in Ballybrit are builders - are they all their offering payments by your logic? people involved in the construction industry are amongst the biggest benefactors of the Celtic Tiger and much more likely to throw their money around* than accountants or the like.

*when i say throw around i'm talking about booze, gambling, birds ...etc

[kingdom hoop]

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....



What a sickening attitude, the emboldened bit especially. You're seriously trying to justify public service corruption? The moral turpitude of public servants is one of the world's grand problems, but shur wouldn't we all do it:rolleyes:

[GavinZac]

What a sickening attitude, the emboldened bit especially. You're seriously trying to justify public service corruption? The moral turpitude of public servants is one of the world's grand problems, but shur wouldn't we all do it:rolleyes:

while large scale corruption is one thing, but attempting to unseat a government because a lad bought expensive wallpaper for a place he was renting 15 years ago smacks of desperation and inability to stand up in the face of examination of ones real policies - see the debate.

[kingdom hoop]

while large scale corruption is one thing, but attempting to unseat a government because a lad bought expensive wallpaper for a place he was renting 15 years ago smacks of desperation and inability to stand up in the face of examination of ones real policies - see the debate.

The scale is irrelevant. Why should a politician ever be allowed to live outside his means? You and me must budget, doesn't he?

I am disgusted once there is a groundswell of opinion belittling any form of dishonesty, the flippant tone you adopt is further exasperation. You can't differentiate on grounds of amount, purpose or source as to do so surely breeds an entirely unsatisfactory disreputable culture. Similarly, eminent statesmen cannot be adjudged as 'lads', 'company directors' or 'neighbours'.

Politics should be a vocation, BohsPartisan would seem to have the right type of attitude - he'd be high up in my meritocracy - while GalwayHoop (used as demonstration, nothing personal) and his ilk are the type of miscreant scoundrel-apologists I'd rather see cleaning the streets Doing the opposite of tainting countries.

As for our election, Kenny hasn't focued on the issue as much as he justifiably could have. Whether or not he has decent policies is not important in this area. For me, he is more deserving of the position, or at least less undeserving, and that has nothing to do with his lovely Irish.:) If a signal of nice guys finish last is transmitted from the top what chance has a society?

[Calcio Jack]

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....

as regards the FF tent last year - it was hardly a bunch of builders handing over bags of money to FF TD's ffs. many businessmen & women from Galway and beyond were there along with FF party members. many builders are invited to these shin-digs as they are involved in business but among others present there were solicitors, accountants, publicans, auctioneers, business consultants, hoteliers.... i could go on. are all of these people lining the pockets of FF?

(1) Haughey took approx that is known £8million, during the 70's and 80's not exactly a ' a back hander here and there', while the rest of us were paying 58p tax on average industrial wage.The fact that politicians were taking back handers didn't in any way lead to jobs been created and to link to too together to try and justify corruption on the basis of job creation is both wrong and innaccuarte.... during that period approx 50% school leavers and graduates had to emigrate...

(2) Re the link between FF and builders well the fact that the Brennan brothers (I think that their name) of planning tribunal fame recently made a tax setlement of €25m with the Revenue and are known majo financial supoporters of FF says it all about the type of "friends" that FF have.

(3) As for your comment "let he without sin cast the first stone", what are you saying ? is it everone is corrupt therefore it's ok for politicians to act in a corrupt manner..... problem with that attitude is that it leads to more and mre corruption and a free for all .

(4) Since you appear to believe that an amount of corruption is ok do you also agree with the PD/McDowell view "that a certain amount of inequality is justified" ?

[GavinZac]

CJ, in these times of heightened sensitivity, media awareness, and electronic banking, do you seriously think builders are walking up to TDs at race events and dumping wads of cash on the table? i tell you what, if you've seen that, tell the sun, or the mirror, or the mail, and next time whip out the ould camera phone as that money on the table or in the envelope will end up in your pocket!


The scale is irrelevant. Why should a politician ever be allowed to live outside his means? You and me must budget, doesn't he?

I am disgusted once there is a groundswell of opinion belittling any form of dishonesty, the flippant tone you adopt is further exasperation. You can't differentiate on grounds of amount, purpose or source as to do so surely breeds an entirely unsatisfactory disreputable culture. Similarly, eminent statesmen cannot be adjudged as 'lads', 'company directors' or 'neighbours'.
I'm not belittling anything, but a bit of perspective would go a long way. For starters, its not been proved he's done anything wrong, and the smear campaign, no matter how enda kenny attempts to distance himself from it, is being driven by opponents of the government, not just anyone seeking justice.

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=GavinZac;688276]CJ, in these times of heightened sensitivity, media awareness, and electronic banking, do you seriously think builders are walking up to TDs at race events and dumping wads of cash on the table? i tell you what, if you've seen that, tell the sun, or the mirror, or the mail, and next time whip out the ould camera phone as that money on the table or in the envelope will end up in your pocket!


The above is just plain silly.... when or where did I mention a scenario as outlined by you above.... my point is that (1) IMO to accept that any level of corruption is wrong

(2) FF continue to accept large contributions from builders including the ones I mentioned who settled for €25m with the Revenue which is wrong as to put it simply in the real world there is no such thing as a free lunch. Do you not accept that there is a link betwen the fact that FF take large contributions from the building sector and continue to fudge and defer bringing in legislation regarding both building standards and ensuring that when houses are built adequate infrastructures such as sewage, school ,transport are also put in place... or do you believe that is all a co-incidence and builders are just altruistic individuals whom main motivation is to ensure that FF are well funded because they want to protect democracy....

Try and answer the questions posed... rather than asking me do believe in some sceanario tha I've never mentioned but you've dreamed up to try and make your belief in corruption seem acceptable.

[galwayhoop]

while GalwayHoop (used as demonstration, nothing personal) and his ilk are the type of miscreant scoundrel-apologists I'd rather see cleaning the streets Doing the opposite of tainting countries.

:eek:
Just aswell it was nothing personal so

[galwayhoop]

It must be great for all of the people on here who live in cyber land, in their comfy homes and drive nice cars and obviously have no concept of the reality of where this country has come from. when we had nothing, had to emigrate to work and little or no national self esteem.

the two western world powers have duped their populations into mass murder in the middle east in search of oil and we are in uproar because our leader got his hall wallpapered!!!!

now CJH was a fair createn as has been established but our politics is far less contaminated than most countries worldwide and economically we are held up as an example of how developing economys should be handled.

yes the corruption is wrong but imo whats done is done and we are where we are, also i would reckon that there is little or none around anymore. yes people who donate monies to political parties are looking for an edge but we are a capitalist society ffs not communist. every democratic party in the world gets political donations and if they didn't they would not be able to exist.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Sure it'd be a grand little country if only you could roof it.

[GavinZac]

Sure it'd be a grand little country if only you could roof it.

I'm pretty sure that's in Enda's contract, along with closing the gaeltachts, pedestrianising leinster and reclaiming land from dublin bay to form a new county

[Erstwhile Bóz]

All done by the end of the summer or your vote back.

[jebus]

Jesus, have just read through this thread and the attitudes of some here, Galwayhoop in particular, is actually astounding.

Corruption at the top level of our government is okay because it happened a few years back :eek:

Sure they've given us our word that it doesn't happen nowadays :eek:

Ireland caught the Western World's boom period wave so let's forgive and forget Fianna Fail's past dishonesty :eek:

I mean, my God

[beautifulrock]

Ireland caught the Western World's boom period wave so let's forgive and forget Fianna Fail's past dishonesty :eek:

I mean, my God

Not correct, Ireland actually have bucked the trend, compare economic growth in Germany and France, for example, during the same period. With regards to your commments comment :) well you may have already noticed that on ALL footie threads, comments go from plain crazy to sensible down to "what is going on here like". It is up to yourself to distinguish between the 3 factions and remember you do not have to agree with all.

[galwayhoop]

Jesus, have just read through this thread and the attitudes of some here, Galwayhoop in particular, is actually astounding.


I have enjoyed the effects of the so-called Celtic Tiger which has created an envoirnment where I have been comfortably been able to return home to earn a living. So yes, i am willing to gloss over some indescressions as I honestly feel that the alternative government could plunge the country into a recession which the vast majority of the 'Baby Boomers' would think was something from the Waltons.

Better the devil you know and all that. I have absolutely no faith in any FG/Labour/Greens government with regard to the financial aspects of running the country. Yes the country has major problems but these will be compounded by the above Rainbow regieme as opposed to eridicated.

And btw I am not going on the say-so of the present government with regard to the absence of corruption but from people who have in the past actively provided funds to members of BOTH of the main parties as a means to get certain decisions to go their way.

[kingdom hoop]

:eek:
Just aswell it was nothing personal so

In light of your latter post this morning I feel I must retract that exculpation. Don't worry though I won't have you on weekend duty!

Your glorification of underhand payments as a driver of the country's economic prosperity discomfits me, but the beauty of a forum is the wide-ranging perspectives one encounters so I'm happy to move on, albeit in a somewhat befuddled state. :)