dcfcsteve and Steve Bruce argue which league is better [Archive]

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Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 10:45 AM

The best way to compare LOI attendances is to compare them with other similar standard leagues eg Round one of the Champions League qualifiers.

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 11:30 AM

The best way to compare LOI attendances is to compare them with other similar standard leagues eg Round one of the Champions League qualifiers.

How can you say EL teams are of a similar standard to those teams in the first qualifying round of the CL, when we regularly beat them in that competition....? :confused:

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 11:36 AM

How can you say EL teams are of a similar standard to those teams in the first qualifying round of the CL, when we regularly beat them in that competition....? :confused:

In the eyes of UEFA you are a similar standard. Your Co-efficients suggest the same. Until you start from round 2 of the qualifiers you are classed in the same pool as amongst the worst in Europe. If you where better than that you would be starting in a higher group.

Although atleast your seeded amongst the worst in Europe.

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 12:20 PM

In the eyes of UEFA you are a similar standard. Your Co-efficients suggest the same. Until you start from round 2 of the qualifiers you are classed in the same pool as amongst the worst in Europe. If you where better than that you would be starting in a higher group.

Although at least your seeded amongst the worst in Europe.

Have you actually looked at UEFA club rankings by country recently ? :confused: I'll make it easy for you. Click here and you'll see that - far from being "classed in the same pool as the worst in Europe" - we're ranked for the 2006/7 season as 20th out of 52 nations..... :rolleyes: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html

We're ranked ahead of the likes of Poland, Austria, Serbia (incl Red Star, who knocked-out Cork), Norway and Croatia. So I'm delighted to hear you're officially acknowledging that our league is now better than all of those. Though, as the IL is listed 50th out of 52, I am somewhat surprised to hear you likewise state that the IL is only better than Andorra and San Marino ! And to hear that you finally accept the gulf between the EL and the IL is as big as 20th vs 50th. After all - if the coefficients are king, then that's the sceal....

With regards the seedings - the problem with that particular aspect of European ranking is that they're calculated on the basis of 5 year rolling average - which takes a long time to genuienly reflect recent league form. Our league has undoubtedly improved over the last 5 years - and over the last 3 in particular. Hence on the rolling co-efficient measure the EL is listed 35th, whilst Sweden is listed 25th - even though we've been putting their teams out of Europe consistently for the last 3 years now (Djurgardens, Malmo, Gothenborg). The earliest year included in current European seeding calculations (2002/3) was our worst year in Europe for some time. Assuming we can top that this year (not hard) we'll start to climb the seedings again to more closely reflect the current reality.

Finally - whilst our clubs may enter the very first stages in all European competitions, it should be noted that both Derry City and Shels do so as seeds in thiose draws. So even if you were right to claim we were down with the weakest leagues in Europe (which recent year's co-efficinets clear show we're not) then we'd at the least be top of those particular piles.

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:10 PM

Have you actually looked at UEFA club rankings by country recently ? :confused: I'll make it easy for you. Click here and you'll see that - far from being "classed in the same pool as the worst in Europe" - we're ranked for the 2006/7 season as 20th out of 52 nations..... :rolleyes: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html

We're ranked ahead of the likes of Poland, Austria, Serbia (incl Red Star, who knocked-out Cork), Norway and Croatia. So I'm delighted to hear you're officially acknowledging that our league is now better than all of those. Though, as the IL is listed 50th out of 52, I am somewhat surprised to hear you likewise state that the IL is only better than Andorra and San Marino ! And to hear that you finally accept the gulf between the EL and the IL is as big as 20th vs 50th. After all - if the coefficients are king, then that's the sceal....

With regards the seedings - the problem with that particular aspect of European ranking is that they're calculated on the basis of 5 year rolling average - which takes a long time to genuienly reflect recent league form. Our league has undoubtedly improved over the last 5 years - and over the last 3 in particular. Hence on the rolling co-efficient measure the EL is listed 35th, whilst Sweden is listed 25th - even though we've been putting their teams out of Europe consistently for the last 3 years now (Djurgardens, Malmo, Gothenborg). The earliest year included in current European seeding calculations (2002/3) was our worst year in Europe for some time. Assuming we can top that this year (not hard) we'll start to climb the seedings again to more closely reflect the current reality.

Finally - whilst our clubs may enter the very first stages in all European competitions, it should be noted that both Derry City and Shels do so as seeds in thiose draws. So even if you were right to claim we were down with the weakest leagues in Europe (which recent year's co-efficinets clear show we're not) then we'd at the least be top of those particular piles.

you re 35th in europe and we are 46th in europe by the proper co-efficients.

Sure you done very well this year, congratulations, but one one swallow doesn't make a summer though and yuo need to continue to build on that. I'll put a wager on the LOI being below 20th over 5 seasons, the period of time that really reflects the strength of ones league. Every season one country or another over achieves, so don't get on your high horse just yet.

Once you are able to do what you did last season every season, then I will tip my hat and say well done you are just a mediocre league in Europe.

EDIT: Incidently we where 48th not 50th as the teams above us had exactly the same points.

Lim till i die

15/05/2007, 1:14 PM

We're ranked ahead of the likes of Poland, Austria, Serbia (incl Red Star, who knocked-out Cork), Norway and Croatia.

That's Ridiculous :eek:

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:16 PM

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:19 PM

That's Ridiculous :eek:

He is basing his arguement that the LOI isn't amongst the worst in Europe by one season of good fortune.

Poland, is a better standard
Serbia is a better standard(Red Star would stuff any team on this island)

And there are many more better leagues than the LOI. Last season wont be repeated this season.

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:20 PM

Just looking at that website, 10 years ago Northern Ireland where ahead in the co-efficients and it was 2000 when the LOI overtook us. In the last 3 years you have made good progress but before that you fluxuated between good and bad years.

Stop living in the past. Sure - 85 years ago we were all one big league. Let's go back to that then, given howe much you love the past....

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:23 PM

you re 35th in europe and we are 46th in europe by the proper co-efficients.

Sure you done very well this year, congratulations, but one one swallow doesn't make a summer though and yuo need to continue to build on that. I'll put a wager on the LOI being below 20th over 5 seasons, the period of time that really reflects the strength of ones league. Every season one country or another over achieves, so don't get on your high horse just yet.

Interesting that your next post after this one basically admits that you hadn't actually looked at the figures on that site in any detail, to see that we have been improving consistently over the last number of seasons......:o

Once you are able to do what you did last season every season, then I will tip my hat and say well done you are just a mediocre league in Europe.

Comical abuse from a fan of the Irish League ! LMAO - for everything else in life, there's Mastercard........ :D

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:25 PM

Stop living in the past. Sure - 85 years ago we were all one big league. Let's go back to that then, given howe much you love the past....

What you on about now? I was maknig an observation, where in that post did I make any sort of arguement? You fool.

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:26 PM

He is basing his arguement that the LOI isn't amongst the worst in Europe by one season of good fortune.

No I wasn't :rolleyes: I was pointing out that a 5-year co-efficient means that it takes quite a while for uplifts in results to feed through into seedings.

This year will see us rise in the rankings - regardless of whether or not we repeat the 2006 results. Next year will hoopefully also see us rise again further, as the older results get replaced by ongoing better ones.

You're just grasping at straws to knock what is clearly a league on the rise through the European ranks. We won't be challenging Spain for top spot any day soon, but neither will we be able to see the Irish league in our rear view mirror any longer....

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:28 PM

Interesting that your next post after this one basically admits that you hadn't actually looked at the figures on that site in any detail, to see that we have been improving consistently over the last number of seasons......:o

Comical abuse from a fan of the Irish League ! LMAO - for everything else in life, there's Mastercard........ :D

You have improved in the last 3 seasons, but we'll see for how long, you will hit a plateau and you'll find your level around the 30 mark in europe(give or take a place or two)

You think your better than Poland:D You are one joker

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:29 PM

You think your better than Poland:D You are one joker

Where did I say that ? :confused:

I was just making "an observation" re the 2006/7 co-efficients.....

Torn-Ado

15/05/2007, 1:31 PM

Where did I say that ? :confused:

I was just making "an observation" re the 2006/7 co-efficients.....

Hey Steve. Are you in the London Derry City supporters clubs. I was with those guys for the game in Gothenburg.

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:32 PM

Hey Steve. Are you in the London Derry City supporters clubs. I was with those guys for the game in Gothenburg.

I am Torn. Were you in the Dubliner or at the game ?

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:32 PM

No I wasn't :rolleyes: I was pointing out that a 5-year co-efficient means that it takes quite a while for uplifts in results to feed through into seedings.

This year will see us rise in the rankings - regardless of whether or not we repeat the 2006 results. Next year will hoopefully also see us rise again further, as the older results get replaced by ongoing better ones.

You're just grasping at straws to knock what is clearly a league on the rise through the European ranks. We won't be challenging Spain for top spot any day soon, but neither will we be able to see the Irish league in our rear view mirror any longer....

Why keep bring the Irish League into it? Who is arguing about that? Where have I said anything about it?

You will increase your ranking because 5 years ago you had a shocking rating (which incidently is better than ours last season, but even last season was bad for IL standards) and you should increase your rating again next season. It is the season after that when your bigger scores start getting whiped out. Your standard is around the 1.500 mark. Which is pretty good, anything above that you are doing well.

If you do start getting consistantly over 2,000 then I'll tip my hat to you.

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 1:35 PM

I am Torn. Were you in the Dubliner or at the game ?

When you classed the LOI as 20th best in Europe ahead of the likes of Poland, which kinda gives that indication, when actual fact you are miles behind poland who has obviously underachieved in the season gone past.

DCFCSteve, I'm not interested in arguing with idiots like you.

LOI is a very average league and well done it has a higher standard than IL. Hope that makes you sleep better at night:rolleyes:

Torn-Ado

15/05/2007, 1:42 PM

I am Torn. Were you in the Dubliner or at the game ?

I was at the game with you guys...and in the Dubliners. :) Which one are you? There was about five of you I think. :)

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 1:45 PM

I was at the game with you guys...and in the Dubliners. :) Which one are you? There was about five of you I think. :)

I'm the good looking one...... ! ;)

I was the tall guy with the short hair (alright - balding....!). Were you in an IFK top ?

Torn-Ado

15/05/2007, 1:50 PM

I'm the good looking one...... ! ;)

I was the tall guy with the short hair (alright - balding....!). Were you in an IFK top ?

Was I fu#k in an IFK top. I had my tricolour and was donated a Polish flag from you guys..(it was red and white anyways). I remember ya now. The baldy fella. I have you tubes videos somewhere of the game. Ask your buddies, theyll remember.

Soper

15/05/2007, 2:09 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Stevey Bruce is this much __ away from being a fully fledged WUM?

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 3:02 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Stevey Bruce is this much __ away from being a fully fledged WUM?

WUM? What is a WUM and also I have tried to be constructive but DCFCSteve argues the silliest of things and then he brings the IL into a debate. Something I don't because it would be silly me trying to compare the IL to the LOI as the IL standard on the whole is worse and the LOI is better.

Also I was saying it would be better comparing the LOI with leagues of similar stature like the other leagues in the same European pool of qualifiers.

So is it me being a WUM(whatever that is) or is it DCFCSteve?:rolleyes:

Dodge

15/05/2007, 3:02 PM

You're both as bad as each other lads...

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 3:05 PM

You're both as bad as each other lads...

If you say so.

So what's a WUM?

dcfcsteve

15/05/2007, 3:07 PM

When you classed the LOI as 20th best in Europe ahead of the likes of Poland, which kinda gives that indication, when actual fact you are miles behind poland who has obviously underachieved in the season gone past.

I didn't class the LOI as 20th best in Europe. UEFA'S 2006/7 ranking did. I didn't even offer an opiniion on that ranking, let alone give my own classification of the merits of thsoe respective leagues....

If UEFA's 2006/7 ranking offends you, go cry to Michel Platini. As for the rest of your post..... :o

Cymro

15/05/2007, 3:10 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Stevey Bruce is this much __ away from being a fully fledged WUM?

He's not a WUM. You just disagree with him.

By the way, I look forward to keeping tabs on this thread. It could get quite amusing. :D

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 3:10 PM

I didn't class the LOI as 20th best in Europe. UEFA'S 2006/7 ranking did. I didn't even offer an opiniion on that ranking, let alone give my own classification of the merits of thsoe respective leagues....

If UEFA's 2006/7 ranking offends you, go cry to Michel Platini. As for the rest of your post..... :o

You used the rankings as the basis to your argument. So are you saying these rankings are indicative of your standard or do you agree that it was just a great season in Europe and you are in actual fact a long way off Poland and the likes and not quite up to the standard of 20th in Europe?

pete

15/05/2007, 3:24 PM

gustavo

15/05/2007, 3:30 PM

Someone should just give the 2 Steves a pair of ruler's and have done with it for once and for all.

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 3:30 PM

This is definitely the most pointless debate on foot.ie ever (even beats the cakes v buns). In a couple of years the eL will probably be in the euro top 30 while the IL will still be outside the top 40.

:rolleyes:

I wasn't debating whether the IL will be anywhere near LOI ever. Steve was.

It all started with comparing attendances with similar standard football nations(eg teh same pool of qualifiers we all join)

Then Steve went on some tirade saying that the LOI is better than everyone else in the qualifying pot. Which I disagreed with and it went on from there.

And anyway, it is attendances I was talking about not how good we all are. :rolleyes: But the point is sometimes lost with people and the whole topic branches out into something else.

Jerry The Saint

15/05/2007, 3:32 PM

This thread should be made a sticky on every forum - it seems like every other thread eventually degenerates into this argument. :)

Throw in reference to the name of the city that Derry City FC come from and stir gently...

Steve Bruce

15/05/2007, 3:34 PM

jebus

15/05/2007, 3:53 PM

Hey Steve. Are you in the London Derry City supporters clubs.

There goes dfcsteve's Irish passport anyway

Ceirtlis

15/05/2007, 4:40 PM

I wasn't debating whether the IL will be anywhere near LOI ever. Steve was.

It all started with comparing attendances with similar standard football nations(eg teh same pool of qualifiers we all join)

Then Steve went on some tirade saying that the LOI is better than everyone else in the qualifying pot. Which I disagreed with and it went on from there.

And anyway, it is attendances I was talking about not how good we all are. :rolleyes: But the point is sometimes lost with people and the whole topic branches out into something else.

The only problem with this thread being about attendances is you forgot to include the attendances.

OneRedArmy

15/05/2007, 4:42 PM

Someone should just give the 2 Steves a pair of ruler's and have done with it for once and for all.Everyone knows Belfast people are bigger p ricks! :D

finnpark

15/05/2007, 7:55 PM

John83

15/05/2007, 8:02 PM

Oh, dear god no. Why isn't there an ignore thread function in vBulletin.

Dodge

15/05/2007, 9:04 PM

Oh, dear god no. Why isn't there an ignore thread function in vBulletin.

There is, you read the title (I mean if this one didn't give the game away...)

LeviathanNI

15/05/2007, 9:30 PM

Everyone knows Belfast people are bigger p ricks! :D

I think you heard that wriong mate.. ask her again, she said we 'have' bigger p ricks ;) :D

LeviathanNI

15/05/2007, 9:31 PM

BleusAvantTout

16/05/2007, 6:41 AM

[
Anyone with half a brain knows that Lingfield were totally outplayed by both Cork and Drogs. Cork should have won 4-0 while Drogs should have won by at least 5. As the Eircom teams get fitter the gap between the 2 leagues become evident. I would go as far as saying that the Eircom 1st division is on a par with Irish League premier. Little difference. The Irish League is so bad it should be disbanded. It is the 3rd worst league in Europe for feck sake.

WHO ARE YA? :confused:

CuanaD

16/05/2007, 6:57 AM

Anyone with half a brain knows that Lingfield were totally outplayed by both Cork and Drogs. Cork should have won 4-0 while Drogs should have won by at least 5. As the Eircom teams get fitter the gap between the 2 leagues become evident. I would go as far as saying that the Eircom 1st division is on a par with Irish League premier. Little difference. The Irish League is so bad it should be disbanded. It is the 3rd worst league in Europe for feck sake.

god i hate this crap! - Linfield are a bloody good team - in the context of this island - they are unarguably one of the top 4 teams if you look at the 3 seasons of Setanta results. Yes, the quality in the rest of their league is noticably lower. Yes, there is more strength in depth in the eL. But Linfield are good at playing against decent teams - they are difficult to break down & can nick goals, which is why they WON against Cork and took Drogs to penalties. It does not have to be pretty to be effective & we have all seen them play decent football in other matches.

eL results have changed since we went to summer soccer, go back before that and we were not FAR ahead of the IL - IL are still in the winter season, so they still do badly in Europe.

The worst IL side in the Setanta (lets say Swifts) would still survive in the eL premier - they would probably be at the bottom end, but they wouldn't be far off Longford, Galway, Waterford & Bray. Loughgall wouldn't. But Kilkenny & Monaghan would expect to be fighting a relegation battle if put into the IL premier too.

Short answer - eL is SLIGHTLY better standard than IL - mainly in a 'strength in depth' fashion, as our top few teams are of a similar standard - but the gap is accentuated in european results because of the summer soccer season.
NONE of us are going to win the CL or UEFA in the near future, but that shouldn't stop us trying to ger BETTER.

end of rant:ball:

Philly

16/05/2007, 8:38 AM

Linfield would definitely be up there in the top four or so in the eircom LOI.

The rest are pretty crap though, mostly, and would be akin to Bray Wanderers - that kind of "up and down" team. Teams like Donegal Celtic would be lower Division One, if they even got a license...

You have to hand it to Linfield. They may be in a crap league but a team can only beat what's in front of them and they do that. They seem to work hard to ensure their standards don't drop to those around them, so well done to the.

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 8:39 AM

OneRedArmy

17/05/2007, 8:41 AM

I have to say some of my faith in LOI supporters have been restored with the last few posts.

Linfield supporters would all say we played terrible against Drogs and Cork, Linfield supporters would be the first to say that fitness did tell. But lets not forget that was our 57th game this season. Not bad going for a part-time outfit.You still seem unable to differentiate between comments on Linfields ability versus commentsthe rest of the Irish League.

You are a good side playing in a poxy League.

FACT.

Pablo

17/05/2007, 9:22 AM

Is there really an arguement to be made? As hallion spokeman i would like to say the EL would molest the IL 99 times out of 100

David

17/05/2007, 9:24 AM

Is there really an arguement to be made? As hallion spokeman i would like to say the EL would molest the IL 99 times out of 100

Yet in recent seasons you have been beaten by two Irish League clubs. Those stats don't hold up then do they?

Pablo

17/05/2007, 9:29 AM

Yet in recent seasons you have been beaten by two Irish League clubs. Those stats don't hold up then do they?

The setanta cup is only a pre season tournament sure. A minor trophy like the league cup.

GavinZac

17/05/2007, 9:31 AM

The setanta cup is only a pre season tournament sure. A minor trophy like the league cup.

the standard would be higher in the league cup though. kerry league gave us a scare, compared to portadown, like.