dcfcsteve and Steve Bruce argue which league is better [Archive] - Page 2

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 11:42 AM

Maybe if it was ridiculously large like the IPL :confused:

I think your being ridiculous in your assumption that Waterford would be better than Portadown.

Portadowns form went to hell as the Setanta started and it showed domestically as well as in the Setanta cup.

Dungannon are a solid team and would sit comfortably in the LOI. They wouldn't be anywhere near the top but they wouldn't get relegated.

Glentoran although the Setanta cup doesn't show it, they would still be a mid table team.

Dodge

17/05/2007, 11:55 AM

Having seen Portadown and Dungannon, both would struggle in the premier division in the LOI

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 1:33 PM

Having seen Portadown and Dungannon, both would struggle in the premier division in the LOI

I've seen a few games on TV and I have to say the standard isn't something I would be worried about as a Linfield supporter. Portadown and Dungannon are good sides who would be better than your bottom 3 or 4 sides, no doubt.

But there's no point in argueing about it. We have two different opinions and we might as well just leave it at that.

Dodge

17/05/2007, 1:41 PM

But there's no point in argueing about it. We have two different opinions and we might as well just leave it at that.

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league :p :D

Pablo

17/05/2007, 1:50 PM

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league :p :D

Indeed. the Ulster senior League should amalgamate with the main league. It makes sense.

EireBadBoy

17/05/2007, 2:00 PM

for a part-time outfit.

We know, jaysus, we buckin' know!!!!

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 2:10 PM

Indeed. the Ulster senior League should amalgamate with the main league. It makes sense.

The Ulster Senior League? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/irish/4269830.stm

Main League?
Can't find anything on this league.

Also I do not see how amalgamating a Rugby Union league into this Main league you talk of would end the debate on how Portadown and Dungannon would do in an All Island League.:confused:

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 2:17 PM

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league :p :D

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.

OneRedArmy

17/05/2007, 2:54 PM

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.
If you'd done any research you'd realise the rugby teams anthem is Ireland's Call. The Irish anthem is only played at home internationals in Ireland as a courtesy to the hosts.

When Ireland play their pre-World Cup warm-up in Ravenhill, the two anthems SHOULD be Ireland's Call (the Irish Rugby anthem) and GSTQ. I say should because there is an element of doubt over this, but its clear in official documents that this is the intention.

Thats why only Ireland's Call is played at away matches.

Not sure if that changes your view, suspect not.....

dcfcsteve

17/05/2007, 3:18 PM

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong on the anthems issue, this suggest you may therefore also understand why many Catholics/Nationalists don't support the NI football team, with it's one-sided anthems and symbols (i.e. not even an attempt at a 'neutral' song liek Ireland's Call).

Now - if you could just explain it to the other Linfield fans on here who refuse to accept it is as an issue, and claim tagdhs wouldn't support the wee north no mater what was done.....

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 3:34 PM

If you'd done any research you'd realise the rugby teams anthem is Ireland's Call. The Irish anthem is only played at home internationals in Ireland as a courtesy to the hosts.

When Ireland play their pre-World Cup warm-up in Ravenhill, the two anthems SHOULD be Ireland's Call (the Irish Rugby anthem) and GSTQ. I say should because there is an element of doubt over this, but its clear in official documents that this is the intention.

Thats why only Ireland's Call is played at away matches.

Not sure if that changes your view, suspect not.....

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 3:36 PM

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong on the anthems issue, this suggest you may therefore also understand why many Catholics/Nationalists don't support the NI football team, with it's one-sided anthems and symbols (i.e. not even an attempt at a 'neutral' song liek Ireland's Call).

Now - if you could just explain it to the other Linfield fans on here who refuse to accept it is as an issue, and claim tagdhs wouldn't support the wee north no mater what was done.....

I don't expect any Irish or Northern Ireland Nationalist to support Northern Ireland. I understand that nationalists in Northern Ireland do not want to recognise the border and they wont support a team that promotes the fact there is a border.

Also I the national anthem thing, i did not address myself properly but have answered in my last post.

Pablo

17/05/2007, 3:53 PM

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

Christ they made up that abomination Irelands call to keep ye happy, are you never satisfied!

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years :D

Steve Bruce

17/05/2007, 3:59 PM

Christ they made up that abomination Irelands call to keep ye happy, are you never satisfied!

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years :D

If they played the two countries national anthems one after another then we would be satisfied;)

Anyways, there is no point debating this as it is totally off topic and it is going to serve no purpose at all.

Lets get back to :ball:

Dodge

17/05/2007, 4:02 PM

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years :D

and by a fecking derry man. No wonder dcfcsteve is so angry! :D

dcfcsteve

17/05/2007, 5:38 PM

I don't expect any Irish or Northern Ireland Nationalist to support Northern Ireland. I understand that nationalists in Northern Ireland do not want to recognise the border and they wont support a team that promotes the fact there is a border.

A hugely sweeping generalisation there Steve. This nonesensical lie that Nationalists won't support the NI team needs to be quashed, and you also need to differentiate between nationalists and militant Republicans.

Nationalists have the perfectly justifiable political aspiration of a United Ireland. However - that doesn't mean they pretend the border doesn't exist, or refuse to recognise anything to do with the north. Only the very small minority of militant Republicans would have nothing to do with northern institutions. The rest of the nationalist world just gets on with life as it currently is in the north (incl, for many, folowing the NI team and Irish League teams) - all the while hoping that someday the constitutional situation will change. Hence why you have hundreds of thousands of nationalists happy to participate in partitionist institutions and activities in the meantime - like Westminster and Assembly elections, for example.

I know a number of Northern Irish nationalists who actively support the Northern Ireland football team (incl the guy with the Derry City FC NI Supporters Club banner), and some are members of this forum. I know of other nationalists who would be curious enough about the team to go to games (incl myself), but feel ostracised by its one-sided symbolism. For none of those people does your sweeping generalisation of refusing to recognise anything to do with the north/border apply.

Most nationalists just accept and get on with life as it currently is, all the while retaining the political hope that it will some day change. That does not preclude them from supporting the NI football team - no more than supporting the Scotttish rugby team would mean you'd like to see the UK dissolved. And no more than a northern protestant is prevented form supporting the Irish rugby team if they have the justifiable political aspiration of partition continuing.

At least we're agreed on the polarising impact of the anthem at NI games.

David

18/05/2007, 7:46 AM

Indeed. the Ulster senior League should amalgamate with the main league. It makes sense.

And it is arrogance like this that winds people up. We, as a country, are entitled to our own league in the same way that you or any other country is.

David

18/05/2007, 7:48 AM

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

I think Ireland played at Ravenhill recently and refused to play GSTQ for the hosts.

OneRedArmy

18/05/2007, 8:08 AM

I think Ireland played at Ravenhill recently and refused to play GSTQ for the hosts.Its a bit much asking them to be rugby players and musicians...

PS Wasn't that the A match vs England Saxons in February where the local fans supported England? Must have been because Ireland didn't play GSTQ.....

GavinZac

18/05/2007, 8:17 AM

And it is arrogance like this that winds people up. We, as a country, are entitled to our own league in the same way that you or any other country is.

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#Administrative_subdivisions).
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 8:30 AM

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#Administrative_subdivisions).
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

To be fair, Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source for information. Anyone could change the details of any article.:rolleyes:

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 8:33 AM

A hugely sweeping generalisation there Steve. This nonesensical lie that Nationalists won't support the NI team needs to be quashed, and you also need to differentiate between nationalists and militant Republicans.

Nationalists have the perfectly justifiable political aspiration of a United Ireland. However - that doesn't mean they pretend the border doesn't exist, or refuse to recognise anything to do with the north. Only the very small minority of militant Republicans would have nothing to do with northern institutions. The rest of the nationalist world just gets on with life as it currently is in the north (incl, for many, folowing the NI team and Irish League teams) - all the while hoping that someday the constitutional situation will change. Hence why you have hundreds of thousands of nationalists happy to participate in partitionist institutions and activities in the meantime - like Westminster and Assembly elections, for example.

I know a number of Northern Irish nationalists who actively support the Northern Ireland football team (incl the guy with the Derry City FC NI Supporters Club banner), and some are members of this forum. I know of other nationalists who would be curious enough about the team to go to games (incl myself), but feel ostracised by its one-sided symbolism. For none of those people does your sweeping generalisation of refusing to recognise anything to do with the north/border apply.

Most nationalists just accept and get on with life as it currently is, all the while retaining the political hope that it will some day change. That does not preclude them from supporting the NI football team - no more than supporting the Scotttish rugby team would mean you'd like to see the UK dissolved. And no more than a northern protestant is prevented form supporting the Irish rugby team if they have the justifiable political aspiration of partition continuing.

At least we're agreed on the polarising impact of the anthem at NI games.

You say it is a minority. If I went into ANY nationalist area in Belfast with my Northern Ireland top on, I would be chased out of the area.:rolleyes:

Also you talk about this one sidedness. Of course it is, just like any other country in the world, the national team displays it's own flag and plays it's own national anthem.

There's no sectarianism at the game anymore though. So I don't know what else you expect?:confused: :confused:

bigmac

18/05/2007, 10:08 AM

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league :p :D

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league,

Do the group stages of the Setanta Cup not count? :D

GavinZac

18/05/2007, 10:13 AM

To be fair, Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source for information. Anyone could change the details of any article.:rolleyes:

That old doozy

Wikipedia isn't a source, its an encyclopedia, which is why every statement on it must be backed up by a source. If you feel something is incorrect and have a source to back it up, you can edit it. Anything without a source and flagged as such is usually deleted in a few days. Feel free to bring your complaint to the discussion page or by simply flagging it as "citation needed".

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 10:20 AM

That old doozy

Wikipedia isn't a source, its an encyclopedia, which is why every statement on it must be backed up by a source. If you feel something is incorrect and have a source to back it up, you can edit it. Anything without a source and flagged as such is usually deleted in a few days. Feel free to bring your complaint to the discussion page or by simply flagging it as "citation needed".

Do you want me to show you a BBC webpage that shows the story about a guy who claimed to be a doctor and made over 3000 entries on Wikipedia without being detected.:rolleyes:

Also if search for all different sources on the net. Some don't even class Scotland, Wales or England countries either but instead class the United Kingdom as a country. Which Northern Ireland belongs to.

Which is probably the most accurate as Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England are all regions of the United Kingdom.

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 10:21 AM

Do the group stages of the Setanta Cup not count? :D

Apparently not. It would if Linfield didn't top it every season:D

dcfcsteve

18/05/2007, 10:31 AM

You say it is a minority. If I went into ANY nationalist area in Belfast with my Northern Ireland top on, I would be chased out of the area.:rolleyes:

Also you talk about this one sidedness. Of course it is, just like any other country in the world, the national team displays it's own flag and plays it's own national anthem.

There's no sectarianism at the game anymore though. So I don't know what else you expect?:confused: :confused:

I can't speak for Belfast, but I know peopel who wear their NI top around Derry without harm or molestation. But then - you Blefast lot always have been a tad less civilised...

On the 'one sidedness issue, the fact that I have to spell this out for you (as indeed for every Linfield fan) shows that you're a lost cause and won't listen or accept the viewpoint anyway. But hey - it's a Friday and the sun is shining, so I'll give it just one wee try.

The Northern Ireland international team supposedly represents a deeply divided province. Yet it does so solely through the symbnolism of only one side of that divide. Whether that symbolism is currently official or not is irrelevant, as it is still divisive. And I note that the other 'home nations' in the UK seem happy using theirt own anthems and flags, yet good old Norn Iron feels it essential to continue paying homage to the UK as a whole, ratehr than it's own weee patch of it. Even the English will eventually ditch GSTQ...

If the IFA/NI team are serious about being a team for the whole province, then they should use symbolism that would be acceptable (or at least, not alienating to) the whole province.

If that isn't acceptable to the IFA - fine. But then stop the pretense. Openly admit that the NI team intends to continue using the symbolism of only one community (whether it's 'official' or not is irrelevant), admit and accept that this will therefore cost the team Catholic/nationalist support, and then accept the enusing consequences when the team/IFA goes looking for political support, funding etc.

No doubt you'll hide behind the whole 'officialdom' arguement. But if the team continues taking sides in a deeply divided province, then the team will have to acept that there are consequences.

First and last word on this, as it gets tedious debating with people who just refuse to accept any other point of view (e.g. that nationalists reject everything to do with the north or the border... ).

David

18/05/2007, 10:32 AM

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#Administrative_subdivisions).
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

In football terms, which is what we are talking after all, Northern Ireland is a country.

dcfcsteve

18/05/2007, 10:34 AM

In football terms, which is what we are talking after all, Northern Ireland is a country.

In football terms, which is what we are tallking after all, Derry city is in the Republic. Or at least the city side is.

Glad to see you've accepted the final surrender of the protestant Jerusalem to the papish Free State hordes... :D

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 10:36 AM

I can't speak for Belfast, but I know peopel who wear their NI top around Derry without harm or molestation. But then - you Blefast lot always have been a tad less civilised...

On the 'one sidedness issue, the fact that I have to spell this out for you (as indeed for every Linfield fan) shows that you're a lost cause and won't listen or accept the viewpoint anyway. But hey - it's a Friday and the sun is shining, so I'll give it just one wee try.

The Northern Ireland international team supposedly represents a deeply divided province. Yet it does so solely through the symbnolism of only one side of that divide. Whether that symbolism is currently official or not is irrelevant, as it is still divisive. And I note that the other 'home nations' in the UK seem happy using theirt own anthems and flags, yet good old Norn Iron feels it essential to continue paying homage to the UK as a whole, ratehr than it's own weee patch of it. Even the English will eventually ditch GSTQ...

If the IFA/NI team are serious about being a team for the whole province, then they should use symbolism that would be acceptable (or at least, not alienating to) the whole province.

If that isn't acceptable to the IFA - fine. But then stop the pretense. Openly admit that the NI team intends to continue using the symbolism of only one community (whether it's 'official' or not is irrelevant), admit and accept that this will therefore cost the team Catholic/nationalist support, and then accept the enusing consequences when the team/IFA goes looking for political support, funding etc.

No doubt you'll hide behind the whole 'officialdom' arguement. But if the team continues taking sides in a deeply divided province, then the team will have to acept that there are consequences.

First and last word on this, as it gets tedious debating with people who just refuse to accept any other point of view (e.g. that nationalists reject everything to do with the north or the border... ).

We will have to agree to disagree. This is Northern Ireland and our national anthem is GSTQ, our official flag is the Union Flag. It is fact and if people don't like that, well that's there look out. We shouldn't have to lose our identity because of a minority of narrow minded people who would rather belong to a different country.

Also your generalisation of linfield supporters is a moronic generalisation. Maybe I could say the same about Derry City supporters, but I have more class than to make that sort of generalisation.

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 10:38 AM

In football terms, which is what we are tallking after all, Derry city is in the Republic. Or at least the city side is.

Glad to see you've accepted the final surrender of the protestant Jerusalem to the papish Free State hordes... :D

Hmm not it's not. You are a Northern Ireland side playing in a foreign league LOI league.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all still classed as Welsh teams, who are playing in the English league:rolleyes:

lofty9

18/05/2007, 10:55 AM

Hmm not it's not. You are a Northern Ireland side playing in a foreign league LOI league.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all still classed as Welsh teams, who are playing in the English league:rolleyes:

Whilst we are classed as an Irish team playing in an Irish league.;)

Steve Bruce

18/05/2007, 11:04 AM

Whilst we are classed as an Irish team playing in an Irish league.;)

I'll give you that, no point in splitting hairs;)

dcfcsteve

18/05/2007, 11:14 AM

Also your generalisation of linfield supporters is a moronic generalisation. Maybe I could say the same about Derry City supporters, but I have more class than to make that sort of generalisation.

A reall class act indeed...! :o But sadly, lacking in enough class to not generalise that all Nationalists detest the border and anything that represents the north.... :rolleyes:

I've yet to meet a Linfield fan who doesn't take your view re the NI team and symbolism. And I've had enough debates with them on here and on ILF to be allowed to make such a generalisation. Or are you telling me that most Linfield fans wouldn't think that way.....? :confused:

GavinZac

18/05/2007, 11:22 AM

Do you want me to show you a BBC webpage that shows the story about a guy who claimed to be a doctor and made over 3000 entries on Wikipedia without being detected.:rolleyes:

No, believe me, as an active participant in Wikipedia I know all about it. He assumed the identity of a professor, and he was an admin, someone who basically performs the duties of a moderator on here, going around checking flagged articles and locking, reverting or deleting them. there are a couple of hundred admins and they themselves are policed by super-admins. Whilst the guy styled himself as a professor, I fail to see how that in any way impacts on Wikipedia since he was not an active editor and cannot make any claims without sources, and I fail to see how he can make over 3000 "entries" (i must be around a similar figure at this stage) without being detected if there are stories about him on BBC! The guy was basically rumbled about the facade he had put on, and the media knowing little or nothing about the situation ran it on a slow news day.

In any case this is pointless as I'm not exactly a hardcore republican myself, I just think that dividing soccer on the island simply because of a rubbish song or a rag on a pole is of benefit to nobody.

Dassa

18/05/2007, 11:54 AM

Not all NI fans have the same opinion regarding the anthem issue.
Im a NI fan and believe that the IFA should remove GSTQ as the anthem. We are not representing the UK so should not play the UK anthem. I also believe that the soldier song should be removed at Ireland rugby games. The team are not the ROI and shouldnt play the ROI anthem.

As for IL and EL. I believe that teams like portadown and Glentoran have done our league a huge injustice with their attitude to the setanta.