Recklessly run clubs

[pineapple stu]

Have a go at Ste - are you for real?
Assuming you mean me, I assume Dodge is referring to posts like these -


does not matter, excuses excuses, you made a loss - forget about others and look at your own club - let he who is without sin (probably harps & galway :D and maybe Derry) cast the first stone. Your directors ran a club that made a loss. Were there cut backs in the off season, players let go? What action was taken to prevent another loss this year - if there is another loss will heads roll?

PS thanks for your honest answer in stating that you made a loss.


P Stu - you looked at our books - are we building up debt or losses - come on be honest? as for me this is the point.


So now we are out of the way - why is it acceptable for clubs to operate continually making a loss for some and not acceptable for others?
Yet and this is the point , yet the Drogs and Pats are the ones singled out (welcoem to the club Pats).


But being neutral Stu - do you not agree that it is not right on the one hand to be slapping Drogs and Pats due to budgets - which may be large etc while other clubs are themselves making a loss.

Dodge is correct to like Drogs fans to Shels fans. On the (now deleted) thread on the Drogs forum about the stadium problems, a Supporters' Trust was mooted. The only answer anyone posted was that Drogs fans weren't the kind to go in for it.

I think I'll change my sig.

[neutrino]

sligo rovers attendances are down to shocking levels this term. IMO its down to the farce of Mcdonald leaving. (or forced out by MC. whichever ur view) . As a result the squad is thin, they've only just appointed a manager. (who IMO wont last long) Our pitch has always been shocking and nothing been done about it. Supporters are ignored. list goes on. we made a profit last year but i would still say the way the MC have undone all their own good work of the past 2 years is pretty reckless. expecting a loss on the books for this year !!!!

[SeanDrog]

if you want to take that as having a go Stu and Dodge then work away. Stu look at the quotes you picked out as so called evidence of me having a go - patectic. I wish you the best of luck in the real world if thats interpretated of "having a go".

Try to have some sort of debate on all clubs in relation to their accounts and I have answered the questions in relation to mine (honesty seems to throw some people off) - and somehow I am accused of having a go at people. I don't tend to get into these personal debates and steer clear - in the past I use to but found they end up going around in circles.

I started this thread about other clubs and have they made losses, some have and yet the thread is forced back onto trialing DUFC - and ultimately twisted into me apparently having a pop at people. I think I will leave this particular sandpit to you lads - you are not interested in discussion or debate - you view every poster as an opponent, in whom you have to "beat".

Cheerio

Admin - please delete my account from this forum

[bigmac]

I started this thread about other clubs and have they made losses, some have and yet the thread is forced back onto trialing DUFC - and ultimately twisted into me apparently having a pop at people. I think I will leave this particular sandpit to you lads - you are not interested in discussion or debate - you view every poster as an opponent, in whom you have to "beat".

Cheerio

Admin - please delete my account from this forum

Chill pill Sean, I've been following this thread myself and it's been pretty relaxed to be fair. There seem to have been some crossed wires about the inference of comments, but it's nothing to get so worked up about. Why not bring the ball back and everyone can play again.

[ciaraa]

why is there somthing wrong with people working in offices on mbs ???

Are you serious? Of course not - most of the lads I go to matches with wouldnt even know how to spell 'internet' so when Dodge or whoever equates Drogs fans to Shels fans having thier heads buried in the sand or whatever on the basis of a few lads on an MB, its hardly an accurate reflection on the majority fanbase.
I'm sure the vast majority of fans would not even know (or care) that such a facility exists.

[mr.untitled]

[QUOTE=pineapple stu;678296]Your destiny is not in your hands. It's in your directors' hands. They can pull the plug at any stage they wish, just like Seery did with Dublin City.

You could use Seary as an example or you could use Glazier, berlisconi or abramovich or even Quinn, and we wonder why quinn isn't investing in our league, he probably read the guff the current LoI investors get on here,

Ive been reading this forum for years and always found you to be well rounded and intelligent stu, Your slightly misguided new sig' clearly proves me wrong

[bigmac]

You could use Seary as an example or you could use Glazer, berlisconi or abramovich or even Quinn, and we wonder why quinn isn't investing in our league, he probably read the guff the current LoI investors get on here,



Yep you definitely could, and that's why there was so little support for the Glazer takeover at Man Utd - he dumped the debt onto the club giving it one of the largest debts in football.

The fundamental questions for any club are

What assets do we have, cash, players, ground etc... and how liquid are they.
How much money do we owe and to whom?


In St. Pats' case, the investment is coming in the form of capital (open to correction here) and hence it has no effect on the club's assets or liabilities. If the investors decide to walk away, the only money they can recoup is what they can get for their shares.
If (to use Man U as an example) the Glazers walk away, then they leave a club with a huge debt attached to it. in that particular case, the debt is manageable due to the size/earning potential of the club, however were a similar debt to be imposed on a smaller club it would be catastrophic.
In Waterford's case recently, the inward investment had come from directors' loans, and hence when a director left he was entitled to recoup the amount he had loaned the club - the Daryl Murphy transfer paid off that debt.

The questions that I am interested in are to do with the way that the recent investments into Drogs have been structured and the liabilities of the club should the investors walk away. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask these questions, given the recent financial behaviour of many Irish clubs. Is there someone who can answer the questions below factually and simply.
As an aside, I am also very aware of the financial situation my own club found itself in last season (as mentioned above), however I don't think that this should preclude me from enquiring about the situation at another club.


How much debt is owed by Drogheda United football club?
How and when will this debt be repaid?
How much of a profit/loss has been made in each financial period since the investors came on board?
If Answer 2 is a loss figure, what plans are in place to remedy this?

[John83]

You could use Seary as an example or you could use Glazier, berlisconi or abramovich or even Quinn, and we wonder why quinn isn't investing in our league, he probably read the guff the current LoI investors get on here,
I don't want to get into the pointless guff Pineapple stu's wading through here, mainly because I think he's picking arguments unnecessarily, but at least some of those are bad examples.

Take Glazier: right now, Manchester United PLC don't owe him a penny, and while he's saddled the club with sizeable debts (several hundred million), this is a company which makes in excess of £100,000,000 per annum profit. If he left in the morning, someone else would come in and continue running everything nicely.

By comparison, Drogheda had considerable debts (in the form of directors' loans) to their directors, and lost ~€1,000,000 in 2005 - this is all as per the company accounts which are publicly available. Assuming they've not turned that around (which there's no indication of), the directors' pulling out in the morning would leave a loss making entity with no fixed assets and substantial debts to their former directors, or in lay man's terms, ****ed.

To quote your own chairman from the Drogheda Independent in early March, "By pushing the project back 18 months to two years in would effectively result in Drogheda United losing their playing licence, putting the club out of the League and out of business. We can finance the club for another year but time is running out. It is costing us 50,000 a week - every week we lose."

That quote's consistent with you having been losing well over a million a year, which means you owe the directors a shed load of cash now. The situation's clearly serious.

[pineapple stu]

I don't want to get into the pointless guff Pineapple stu's wading through here, mainly because I think he's picking arguments unnecessarily, but at least some of those are bad examples.
I object to that; I was asked questions directly, so I don't see how I can be picking a fight by answering them. In fact, looking over the thread, it's one of my more rational contributions; your only previous post was, ironically, to pick a fight over the spelling of "reckless".

However, your post is correct other than that; ditto bigmac, whose club obviously have prior experience of the exact same thing happening, which is partly why they've been so bad the past year or two.

As far as mr untitled's post goes, it's worth noting as well that a group of Manchester United fans responded by forming their own club in protest, while many more were involved in various protests against Glazer's takeover (which ultimately they didn't have the money to stop), while I think Abramovic's takeover and subsequent spending spree was (at least briefly) met with vague UEFA threats to limit any one person's ability to bankroll a club in such a manner that, if they left, the club would be screwed. So there are similarities between the different cases. I think to write off my comments as "misguided" purely on the basis that you don't like hearing them is a bit silly.

[paudie]

How much debt is owed by Drogheda United football club?
How and when will this debt be repaid?
How much of a profit/loss has been made in each financial period since the investors came on board?
If Answer 2 is a loss figure, what plans are in place to remedy this?


All figures from Hinge Trading Ltd Accounts y\e 31/10/05 and DUFC (O2) Ltd accounts y\e 31/12/05 (Last accounts filed with CRO)
Drogheda United trades as Hinge Trading Ltd.
Drogheda United FC (O2)Ltd own 99.9% of Hinge Ltd


Answer 1. Hinge Ltd owed Drogheda United Football Club (O2) Ltd €1,136,537 at 31/12/05.

Answer 2. This amount is shown in Hinge Balance Sheet as "Due after more than 1 year".
However after 31/12/05 €1,111,021 of this amount was converted to shares in Hinge. This effectively wrote off the debt as the shareholder has to sell the shares to realise anything.
Hinge also owed €394,926 in amounts due within 1 year at 31/10/05, most likely Revenue, Overdraft, smaller creditors.

The 3 directors of DUFC ltd are also directors of Hinge. There is another director of Hinge who is not a director of DUFC.

The 3 common directors have provided interest free loans to DUFC Ltd totalling €1,014,584 at 31/12/05. These are shown in the accounts as being "Due after more than 1 year"

Answer 3 - Hinge lost €1,006,504 in the y\e 31/10/05 and has accumulated losses of €1,419,597 up to that date.

[bigmac]

Thanks Paudie,

[WeAreRovers]

You could use Seary as an example or you could use Glazier, berlisconi or abramovich or even Quinn, and we wonder why quinn isn't investing in our league, he probably read the guff the current LoI investors get on here,
and intelligent stu, Your slightly misguided new sig' clearly proves me wrong

They are not investors, they are speculators. And as football fans we're right to be sceptical as Rovers, Shels and countless clubs across the water (Exeter, Wrexham etc etc) can vouch for.

KOH

[John83]

I object to that; I was asked questions directly, so I don't see how I can be picking a fight by answering them. In fact, looking over the thread, it's one of my more rational contributions...
Apologies: I've re-read the thread and seem to have had my opinion skewed by you calling someone a WUM early on.


They are not investors, they are speculators. And as football fans we're right to be sceptical as Rovers, Shels and countless clubs across the water (Exeter, Wrexham etc etc) can vouch for.

KOH
This seems to be the case here, particularly given that everything seems to rest on whether or not they can get planning permission to build a small town, about the size of Kilkenny.

[DmanDmythDledge]

When will the '06 accounts be released?

[John83]

When will the '06 accounts be released?
Based on the dates on the previous ones, I'd guess August.

[mr.untitled]

They are not investors, they are speculators. And as football fans we're right to be sceptical as Rovers, Shels and countless clubs across the water (Exeter, Wrexham etc etc) can vouch for.

KOH

I can understand the skepticism,
can you speculate with out investing?
Call me blind or naive but a few posts on this thread contain an element of the green eyed monster.
Stu, its actually your new sig i find misguided

[John83]

Call me blind or naive but a few posts on this thread contain an element of the green eyed monster.
I don't understand why you think this. Drogheda are in a bad way financially. No one's gloating, and no one's offered any evidence to the contrary.

[pineapple stu]

Call me blind or naive but a few posts on this thread contain an element of the green eyed monster.
Stu, its actually your new sig i find misguided
I don't see anything misguided about it. In fact, your previous sentence sums exactly why I think it's apt.


However after 31/12/05 €1,111,021 of this amount was converted to shares in Hinge. This effectively wrote off the debt as the shareholder has to sell the shares to realise anything.
I'd be careful with this. The directors give the money to Company A, which in turn gives it to Company B. So you have a situation where Company B owes Company A, which in turn owes the directors. But Company A appears to have turned the loan into shares, which means Company B no longer owes Company A, but as far as I can see, Company A still owes the directors. The E1m deficit has simply shifted companies, but it's still there.

In fact, to use your wording above, the shareholder does have to sell the shares to realise anything, but the 99.9% shareholder of Hinge Trading Limited is Drogheda United Football Club (O2) Limited, not Hoey et al.

[pineapple stu]

Mr Untitled - do you understand my sig now?

[mr.untitled]

you presumed shels fans had their heads in the sand with reguards to the running of their club last year and you presume we have our heads in the sand re. the running of our club now, is that it?

i disagree, However if you are right and we do a 'Shelbourne' on it i will bow to your better judgement. untill that time i'l be giving your posts about the reckless nature of our clubs finances a miss.

[pineapple stu]

Are you willing to provide any sort of back-up to your assertion?

I think time has shown that Shels fans clearly did have their heads in the sand over their club's situation. Reading back through their forum shows that. Many of those sentiments - especially the jealously one - are now being echoed by Drogs fans.

[Celdrog]

I don't think most Drogs fans have their head in the sand (well not any more). Its fairly obvious that if this new stadium does not come off this year then we are off to Division 1.
However a lot of Drogs on here are pretty close to the club and the word from the three amigos is that they do not expect the whole thing to go belly up.
I always went on what they had to say. I think they screwed up the first attempt to build the ground in Louth. There is something very weird going on in Meath. Last January Meath cc agreed that the Bryanstown area would have 5000 houses sometime in the future. I have no idea what has changed, if anything, or why planning permission is not a formality. Its amazing that most of the EL, if not all is behind Rovers against Thomas Davis but if you go to the East Meath blog you find EL fans saying that we should not be given permission for a ground:rolleyes:
So until we get planning permission or go to the LSL I am just enjoying what will probably be our most successful season ever.
You never know, we may win the Setanta cup for the Eircom league, although reading on here it appears most of you want Linfield to win, hence the negativity of most of the Drogs.

Anyway my sig hasn't changed for months.

[ndrog]

are you actually bothered what happens to dufc or would you just love to see us go to the wall .No drogs fans that i know are that naive to think everything is all good ,and that we are not in seriuos trouble if the stadium dosent go ahead .WE KNOW ! what do you want us to do about it .come on here and express our concerns so people like you with a gripe against the club can have a pop at every oppourtunity .And Tbh i would rather play in the first division than be a supporter of UCD, so i kind of understand your bitterness towards us .We have potential to do something really good in Irish football , were as ucd have fcuk all and never will have .

[pineapple stu]

And Tbh i would rather play in the first division than be a supporter of UCD, so i kind of understand your bitterness towards us .We have potential to do something really good in Irish football , were as ucd have fcuk all and never will have .
See posts 8, 10 and 11 in this thread (http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=7627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ucd%2A&start=0).

My sig stands.

And for the record, I don't want to see Drogs go belly up, as I didn't want to see Shels going belly up. I'd much rather they were stable, well run clubs. But what I want is irrelevant in the face of facts.

[ndrog]

See posts 8, 10 and 11 in this thread (http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=7627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ucd%2A&start=0).

My sig stands.

And for the record, I don't want to see Drogs go belly up, as I didn't want to see Shels going belly up. I'd much rather they were stable, well run clubs. But what I want is irrelevant in the face of facts.

dont give a flying fcuk about your sig tbh , and all your posts regarding us come across like your youd be happy to see us going down .But as i stated your a ucd fan so youve nothing to really gloat about have you :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

celdrog and ndrog the chaps right we do nothing for the club its terrible really:rolleyes: sure dont we all bunk in as well dont pay a penny


http://www.irishfootienetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=7097

http://www.irishfootienetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=6804
Wow. E1500 here, E50 there. Yep, that'll turn things around.

THe similarities with Shels abound.

[John83]

Kevin, I know you don't actually delight in Drogheda's predicament, but your argument would be taken a bit more seriously if you didn't engage in this kind of wang measurement contest with those who don't want to hear it.

[Mr A]

We looked from Shelbourne fans to Drogheda fans, from Drogheda fans to Shelbourne fans and from Shels fans to Drogs fans again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Jeez, wouldn't the colour of the jerseys or merchandise be a clue? Or even the crests? If it really comes to it couldn't you just ask them?

Not so much impossible as just not putting in the effort as far as I'm concerned.

[pineapple stu]

Kevin, I know you don't actually delight in Drogheda's predicament, but your argument would be taken a bit more seriously if you didn't engage in this kind of wang measurement contest with those who don't want to hear it.
Not really sure that's fair.

First off, there's no real wang arguments, from me anyway. There's plenty of "your argument is silly, and here's why".

Second off, my argument stands up perfectly, and any allegation of "wang arguments" can't detract from that point.

What annoys me, like Dodge (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=678341&postcount=24), is the tendency to reduce serious debates to "You're a UCD fan, therefore your views are silly (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=680517&postcount=76)" or "You're just jealous (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=679810&postcount=68)." or the classic "You hate Doolin, therefore your views are silly (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=681223&postcount=83)" (And that's three different posters I've picked on there, not just the one isolated incident) Alternatively, they go off crying to others (http://www.irishfootienetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=7267&sid=fa265147a5d11882a5cddff4a2b91bc2) where they'll pity themselves without actually discussing the actual issues (cosmo's an exception there).

Like them or not, Rovers fans have shown us how to take over a club, and fans (not all fans) of clubs like Shels, Drogheda and Dublin City have been quite content to ignore what's going on, deny everything with a host of stupid arguments and then boom! Another club gone, another farce for the league. It's just so predictable at this stage, and it makes a mockery of the league when clubs are run that recklessly and no-one bothers trying to do anything about it.

[/rant]

[pineapple stu]

It is money, and fair dues to you.

But it's not going to come anywhere near saving the club, which is what you need to be looking at. That's why I dismissed it (perhaps a little heavy-handedly).

[ndrog]

the point is that he dosent know whats going on with drogs fans ? he thinks he knows the entire goings on at the club and the thoughts and actions of its supporters .Tell me smart guy how do you know all this ? how many drogs come on here ? 3 maybe . I for one have many ongoing discussions with other supporters regarding the future of Dufc .Most fans dont go anywhere near the internet and dont want to discuss these things in a public forum , but would rather do this behind closed doors .