Has there been a faster decline?

[OwlsFan]

Leeds United: from Champions League semi-final a few seasons back to Division One (old Division 3) next season ?

What is David O'Leary doing these days? Doesn't seem to get much punditry work.

[Lionel Ritchie]

At the risk of engaging in unbecoming snobbishness -in a few years we'll be back where we belong and Hull, Barnsley and Leicester will still be Hull, Barnsley and Leicester*.

Your team have been where we are now and I'm sure you'll agree it's not the end of the world. Leeds can bitch about it and feel sorry for themselves or they can start on the road back. I know which is more useful.

*Sincere congrats to all three are due as they went and got the results when they needed to -something we couldn't do all season long. :ball:

[pineapple stu]

Dunno - Shels' collapse from Champions' League qualification to bottom half of the First Division was fairly rapid!

Although on a serious note, it is probably the only comparison I can think of - the sheer fire sale of players, sudden change from good to rubbish and the club verging on bankruptcy brought on by their most successful spell ever on the field.

And to think they lost the play off final less than 12 months ago.

[Steve Bruce]

Charlton athletic seem to be going at a very rapid rate.

As did Forest, Wimbledon(Milton Keynes) Sheffield Wednesday.

[Stuttgart88]

I've always liked Leeds as a club but I hate Bates & Wise so much I've little sympathy for them now. Nasty characters.

[shakermaker1982]

Having watched a lot of Forest games since their fall to the 'third' division I can tell you now Leeds are gonna struggle big time next season. Every club who will visit Elland Rd will see it as their FA Cup final and up their game by 10%.

I don't have much sympathy for em. Didn't they buy Fowler for a shed load (8 million?) only to let him go + continue to keep paying his wages! Crazy.

[OwlsFan]

Charlton athletic seem to be going at a very rapid rate.

As did Forest, Wimbledon(Milton Keynes) Sheffield Wednesday.

Wednesday playing a Champions League semi-final. Darn, must have been abroad when that happened!! ;) Actually, if it weren't for Jack Charlton, Wednesday would have dropped to the 4th division.

Yes, Forest is a reasonable comparison but their glory days weren't just a few years ago.

Apart from counting his money, as I say, what's O'Leary up to?

[kingdom hoop]

I don't have much sympathy for em. Didn't they buy Fowler for a shed load (8 million?) only to let him go + continue to keep paying his wages! Crazy.

There were many stories of largesse from that time, £10,000 goldfish and offering Seth Johnson something like 4/5 times the expected salary spring to mind. Idiots

Spare a thought, neutral or otherwise, for Bradford City who got relegated to the fourth tier this weekend after three relegations in six years. Not quite Leeds proportions but paying Bentio Carbone £40,000 a week was cripplingly imprudent as well.

Swings and roundabouts. Fulham, Wigan have come from nowhere. The common constituent? Money, money, money.

I'm trying to think of similar cataclysmic episodes on the continent. But none are springing to mind. Is it the competitiveness in England's lower leagues or money playing too important a role? Or of course maybe I've missed a glaring case study or two.

[jebus]

At the risk of engaging in unbecoming snobbishness -in a few years we'll be back where we belong and Hull, Barnsley and Leicester will still be Hull, Barnsley and Leicester*.

Your team have been where we are now and I'm sure you'll agree it's not the end of the world. Leeds can bitch about it and feel sorry for themselves or they can start on the road back. I know which is more useful.


All depends what Leeds do during the summer in my opinion. Wise/Poyet management hasn't worked out and they should be shown the door, Bates should be as well, given that he drove a perfectly capable manager in Kevin Blackwell out the door so his buddies could have a job. Can't see ye losing too many good players, given that ye don't have any! :p

All that being said, if Bates sticks to his guns (and he probably will) then I'm not sure Wise will be able to get Leeds back up on the first attempt at least

[4tothefloor]

Leeds need to put their money in to a top manager with a proven track record at winning promotions. Pi$$ing against the wind with Wise and co. If they stick with what they've got now, forget about it. Unfortunately for them that turd of a human being Ken Bates has full control at the club, so in a spot of bother I'd say......

[superfrank]

A lot of clubs like Bradford, Wendesday and Forest were undoubtedly affected by the collapse of ITV Digital (?) in 2001 or 2002, iirc. That was big money for the lower league teams like the aforementioned who had not long before dropped down from the Premiership so would've been expecting, perhaps unrealistically in Bradford's case anyway, to bounce back. That's probably what got them, imo.

Though Leeds just had a spendthrift manager and a chairman dumb enough to bankroll him.

[kingdom hoop]

Though Leeds just had a spendthrift manager and a chairman dumb enough to bankroll him.

You're spot on about ITV Digital, and I think the parachute payments have been improved of late also meaning repeat disasters shouldn't happen as readily.

As for the dishonourable Mr.Ridsdale he's come out with a few comments today;

Looking back, I would do things differently. I would challenge the manager more, run things tighter. I think I said 'yes' too often to the manager. :rolleyes: That was your job Peter, and were you not the one with half the Pacific Ocean's fish in your office?

He then had the gall to say;

I actually believe that had I been allowed to stay around - and it was my decision to go, but clearly the pressure was such from our supporters that I couldn't take any more - I don't believe that Leeds would be in the situation they are in now." So you're a good saver but a reckless spender? Peter 'the walking paradox' Ridsdale.

There's a bleak future in store. Though they may do one thing right by going into administration in the next week, as the ten point reduction will be enforced for this season. Whereas if they wait until after the last game it will be carried over to next season.

[Risteard]

.

I'm trying to think of similar cataclysmic episodes on the continent. But none are springing to mind.
Napoli.

[dcfcsteve]

As did Forest, Wimbledon(Milton Keynes) Sheffield Wednesday.

There was nothing rapid about Wimbledon's decline, - though the decline of the Milton keynes Dons (a separate but related club) has indeed been faster.

As Wimbledon, the team got relegated from the Premiership in 2000. In 2001 and 2002 they narrowly missed out on making the promotion play-offs - so certainly no sharp descent there.

After that, the plan to move the club to Milton Keynes surfaced, it went into Administration and the fan-base deserted it in droves. Since then, under its new guise, the MK Dons have thankfulyl suffered a heady slide down the tables - relegated to league 1 in 2004 and League 2 in 2006. Sadly, though, they are looking strong in the promotion play-offs for this year.... :mad:

MK Dons and its supporters reached agreement with AFC Wimbledon and their supporters in October of last year for the history and artefacts from Wimbledon FC (including the miniature FA Cup) to be handed-over to the Borough of Merton (in which Wimbledon is). This was widely viewed as final recognition from MK Dons that they were a separate club from Wimbledon FC.

So a big slide for the Franchise, but not for Wimbledon FC.

[BohsPartisan]

Marseille, Juvé, Shels - but all those were through sanctions not on the field collapse.

[OwlsFan]

Swings and roundabouts. Fulham, Wigan have come from nowhere. The common constituent? Money, money, money.

Fulham haven't come from nowhere. They have nearly always been there or thereabouts as regards the top flight. I do recall a FA Cup Final appearance in the not too distant past. However, I do regard clubs like Wigan and Reading as keeping Wednesday's seat warm until they return to their rightful place among the also-rans of the Premiership ;) Those two cup final appearances in 1993 seem a long time ago now.

[superfrank]

Fulham haven't come from nowhere. They have nearly always been there or thereabouts as regards the top flight.
Not really. Their recent history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulham_F.C.#Recent_history) suggests otherwise. In 1996 they finished 17th in the bottom division. And in 1997 they were promoted from the bottom division alongside Wigan who won it. And apparently when they were promoted to the Premiership in 2001 it was the first time they'd played in the top flight since 1968.

Sorry for being a *******, it's just I remeber hearing something along those lines before. :D

[kingdom hoop]

Fulham haven't come from nowhere. They have nearly always been there or thereabouts as regards the top flight. I do recall a FA Cup Final appearance in the not too distant past.

:confused: They were in Division 4 when Al Fayed took control less than ten years ago, and hadn't been in the top flight for forty years when they won promotion a few years ago.

[kingdom hoop]

Napoli.

Great to see they are in with a shout of promotion back to Serie A, seven games left and in second place, behind Juvé who look comfortable.


Marseille, Juvé, Shels - but all those were through sanctions not on the field collapse.

Likewise Perugia. But they got royally screwed by being disbanded, just deserves for that chairman. As ever it's the fans that suffer most though.:(

Back to on the field relegations, Oxford United have been notably bad. Second tier to fifth between 1998 and 2006. Trivia on Oxford is that they have the ignominious honour of being the only club to have won a major trophy, League Cup in 1987, to be relegated from the Football League.

[Schumi]

How about Foggia? I remember them being in Serie A in the mid-nineties when they were involved in loads of high-scoring games and they were in Serie C2 (fourth level) at the turn of the century.

[Poor Student]

Dundee United went from UEFA Cup finalists to Scottish First division in 8 seasons, not quite as dramatic or steep though.

Didn't Swansea shoot up the divisions and slide back down in succession? MK Dons are another team. FA Cup winners in the 1980's, dropped from Premier Division to bottom flight in the space of a decade. I think Swindon had a fairly steep fall from Premiership to bottom flight too.

[Schumi]

I looked up Foggia. Three relegations in five years!

[Cymro]

Didn't Swansea shoot up the divisions and slide back down in succession? MK Dons are another team. FA Cup winners in the 1980's, dropped from Premier Division to bottom flight in the space of a decade.

Yes, basically. Our rise was mostly built on the back of money though, like Leeds.

We're coming back up though now so Cardiff had better watch out next year :D

[OwlsFan]

:confused: They were in Division 4 when Al Fayed took control less than ten years ago, and hadn't been in the top flight for forty years when they won promotion a few years ago.


Opps. Trouble is I remember them playing the top flight 40 years ago :( Where have all those years gone? I just assumed they had been knocking around the 1st division since then. Didn't realise Dodi's dad took them all the way from the old 4th. May be he'll open a Harrods in Sheffield.

[superfrank]

We seem to forget Fiorentina. They certainly recovered well after there spectacular capitulation. It's good to see them doing relatively in Serie A. I always thought their fans added a bit of colour and flavour to Serie A.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Though Leeds just had a spendthrift manager and a chairman dumb enough to bankroll him.

Not entirely true. David O'Leary attended an interview for the job where HE asked the interview panel -essentially Ridsdale -"what do you want from the team and what do want from me?" The answer he got involved consistent challenges for the title and even more consistent CL qualification. O'Leary answered along the lines of "fine ... but it's going to cost X amount because we're going to need him, him, him, him and him to join the club if we're going to deliver what you want".

If it had been Arsene Wenger, Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or anyone else they could only have given the same answer. That Ridsdale was playing fast and loose with vast amounts of other peoples money which there was no real capacity to repay was essentially none of David O'Learys business.

And in defence of Ridsdale :eek: (these are uncertain waters for me) -if this man, now an absolute hate figure for many Leeds supporters, had sat down over a pint with those same supporters back a decade ago and said "look we're facing the near unbroken mid-table mediocrity endured by the Evertons, Villas, Spurs' etc... unless we try something brazen to crack open the Man U-Arsenal-Liverpool closed shop. Here's what I propose..." I'm guessing a good number would've backed him and if the gamble had come off none of them would've been condemning him for recklessness with their clubs existence ...he'd be glorified as a cavalier, high roller who took on the establishment and won.

[OwlsFan]

Article on Leeds' decline here in today's Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/05/01/sfnmot01.xml

[superfrank]

And in defence of Ridsdale :eek: (these are uncertain waters for me) -if this man, now an absolute hate figure for many Leeds supporters, had sat down over a pint with those same supporters back a decade ago and said "look we're facing the near unbroken mid-table mediocrity endured by the Evertons, Villas, Spurs' etc... unless we try something brazen to crack open the Man U-Arsenal-Liverpool closed shop. Here's what I propose..." I'm guessing a good number would've backed him and if the gamble had come off none of them would've been condemning him for recklessness with their clubs existence ...he'd be glorified as a cavalier, high roller who took on the establishment and won.
Yes IF it had come off but you have to wonder where he was getting the money from. Cause unlike Chelsea who did pull it off, iirc, they didn't have a big mega-rich sugar daddy. That's why Ridsdale shouldn't have gone the way he did.

[GavinZac]

Going back a bit, Pro Vercelli were the most successful club in italy before professionalism turned them from a fantastic side into a small club in a small town. Dropped like a stoned from Serie A and they are now in Serie C2A...

...although I've gotten them back to serie A in football manager :D

[pineapple stu]

We seem to forget Fiorentina.
That's different though - they were kicked out of the league and reformed. Leeds, and the others being mooted, have been relegated of their own inability.

A few others, I suppose -

Northampton (http://www.northamptontown-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadlghs.asp) went from Division Four to Division One in five seasons, and back to Division Four in the next four seasons. Three promotions and three relegations in 9 seasons.

Swansea (http://www.swanseacity-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadlghs.asp) did the exact same.

Scarborough were in Division Three a few years ago - relegated by Carlisle keeper Jimmy Glass' injury time winner in 1999, I think - and have now been relegated from Conference South (or North, can't remember). I think this is far down as any former league club has gone without going broke and starting again.

In Italy, Castel di Sangro's rise to Serie B is well known; they stayed up in 1996/97, but were relegated to Serie C1 in 1997/98, to C2 in 2001/02, to Serie D in 2002/03, to Eccelenza (sixth level) in 2003/04 and to the regional leagues in 2004/05. They were top of the Abruzzo regional league Group A after 19 games of this season.

For the record, this is Fulham's third spell (http://www.fulham-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadlghs.asp) in the top flight. They spent 15 years in the bottom two divisions before Al Fayed took over.

[Wolfie]

Not entirely true. David O'Leary attended an interview for the job where HE asked the interview panel -essentially Ridsdale -"what do you want from the team and what do want from me?" The answer he got involved consistent challenges for the title and even more consistent CL qualification. O'Leary answered along the lines of "fine ... but it's going to cost X amount because we're going to need him, him, him, him and him to join the club if we're going to deliver what you want".

If it had been Arsene Wenger, Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or anyone else they could only have given the same answer. That Ridsdale was playing fast and loose with vast amounts of other peoples money which there was no real capacity to repay was essentially none of David O'Learys business.

And in defence of Ridsdale :eek: (these are uncertain waters for me) -if this man, now an absolute hate figure for many Leeds supporters, had sat down over a pint with those same supporters back a decade ago and said "look we're facing the near unbroken mid-table mediocrity endured by the Evertons, Villas, Spurs' etc... unless we try something brazen to crack open the Man U-Arsenal-Liverpool closed shop. Here's what I propose..." I'm guessing a good number would've backed him and if the gamble had come off none of them would've been condemning him for recklessness with their clubs existence ...he'd be glorified as a cavalier, high roller who took on the establishment and won.

Very true - Managers as a breed look for the money, its up to the Chairman to weigh up whether its provided or not. The incapacity to pay had **** all to do with O'Leary's role.

[EalingGreen]

Not entirely true. David O'Leary attended an interview for the job where HE asked the interview panel -essentially Ridsdale -"what do you want from the team and what do want from me?" The answer he got involved consistent challenges for the title and even more consistent CL qualification. O'Leary answered along the lines of "fine ... but it's going to cost X amount because we're going to need him, him, him, him and him to join the club if we're going to deliver what you want".

If it had been Arsene Wenger, Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or anyone else they could only have given the same answer. That Ridsdale was playing fast and loose with vast amounts of other peoples money which there was no real capacity to repay was essentially none of David O'Learys business.

And in defence of Ridsdale :eek: (these are uncertain waters for me) -if this man, now an absolute hate figure for many Leeds supporters, had sat down over a pint with those same supporters back a decade ago and said "look we're facing the near unbroken mid-table mediocrity endured by the Evertons, Villas, Spurs' etc... unless we try something brazen to crack open the Man U-Arsenal-Liverpool closed shop. Here's what I propose..." I'm guessing a good number would've backed him and if the gamble had come off none of them would've been condemning him for recklessness with their clubs existence ...he'd be glorified as a cavalier, high roller who took on the establishment and won.

I hate to argue with a Leeds fan, but having just heard Ridsdale on Radio 4's "On the Ropes" this morning, I have to say that there is no defence of Ridsdale, none. A local lad, he supported them since childhood. He was successful in business, so was invited onto the Board as a Non-Exec Director. After seven years, he became Executive Chairman (handsomely remunerated, I might add).

He then proceeeded to "chase the dream" as he saw it. In order to try to compete with the top clubs, he borrowed huge amounts of money, at exorbitant interest rates, from lenders who retained a financial interest in the players (i.e. if it went wrong, the club took the hit, but if it went right, the lenders took the profit).

The only possible way Leeds could service these debts was by qualifying for the Champions League every season which, as we all know, simply cannot be guaranteed*. As an experienced businessman and football director, Ridsdale either knew this and took a chance anyhow, or knew it but wouldn't admit it, or didn't know it. Whichever, the buck stops with him and he should have resigned as soon as it became apparent, to allow a successor the best possible chance of turning it round. Instead, he clung on until supporter abuse forced him out. Even now, he denies responsibility, blaming others or just "bad luck".

We all dream; I'd like to live in a big house by the river. If I borrowed every penny I could from everyone I knew, added to whatever mortgage the bank would give me, I might just manage it some day. But when (not if) I find I can't make the repayments, then I know I'll be repossessed, the bank will get whatever is left, and it's my friends and family who will be shafted. At that stage, I wouldn't receive too much sympathy if I blamed those who lent me the money, or my "bad luck" that interest rates rose.

As for O'Leary, it is correct to say that any manager will spend whatever money the Board will sanction. However, there is still an onus on him to recommend the right players at the right money. Leeds spent £12million on Robbie Fowler when they already had six other strikers at the club; they paid way over the odds (£6M?) on an average player, Seth Johnson, and apparently offered him four times the wages he was expecting, without his even having to negotiate. A Board of Directors is entitled to expect expert advice on technical matters from their most senior employee. O'Leary clearly did not supply that.
Further, his record at Villa merely demonstrated what was disguised at Leeds by his early (apparent) success at Leeds; namely, he's not a good man manager. In both cases, he took over the team and by telling everybody how good they were and how much he liked them, they responded by upping their game. He added to the squad by signing anyone he could, regardless of value. Then when the gloss wore off, and some of the senior players began to see through him, he turned to the youngsters, who were still "star-struck" by him. Then, when the better players moved on and the kids began to struggle, he variously blamed their youth, the Board (for not sanctioning more purchases), bad luck, injuries etc etc etc - everything but himself.

Through it all, however, he'll have angled and spun to keep the right people happy, whether these be the Board, the supporters, the Press or whatever, until the inevitable caught up with him. Then again, as Tony Cascarino always says, he's the sort of Manager who might not remember the name of his Youth team captain, but will never forget the Chairman's Wife's Birthday!

Leeds were always going to be in trouble with Ridsdale and his cronies in charge; O'Leary merely ensured the fall was quicker and further than it might otherwise have been.


* - Apparently when Liverpool were at their peak, they used to budget for 42 League games, one FA Cup game and one League Cup game during the coming season. Any additional revenue from Cup runs, Europe etc was a bonus, with the extra to be spent the following season on player transfers (which qualified as a tax write-off).

[Lionel Ritchie]

Through it all, however, he'll have angled and spun to keep the right people happy, whether these be the Board, the supporters, the Press or whatever, until the inevitable caught up with him. Then again, as Tony Cascarino always says, he's the sort of Manager who might not remember the name of his Youth team captain, but will never forget the Chairman's Wife's Birthday!

I'm just playing devils advocate in relation to Ridsdale. He used Leeds fans as yet unborn as collateral to secure loans and I'll never forget it.

As for O'Leary -or Cascasrinos opinion of him - while O'Leary, his character and managment skills are far from flawless -I know who I'd rather be sat next to on aeroplane making an emergency landing, I can guess who'd jump out before me or after me and I can guess who's more likely to be found face down in a ditch with a bullet in the back of his skull too.

[jebus]

Theres a couple of nice youtube videos about this, but I like this one best :p

VCqcTR5G1qo

Richie Cresswell....what a ****ing liability! :D

[Lionel Ritchie]

Lovely.

The tit who made it goes for the "look on Leeds fans face" line before cutting to a shot of the crown of someones skull and then flashing a three year old file picture of a child from the day we dropped out of the premiership AND THEN mispells PRICELESS.

Are the Fás supervisors watching what the second chance candidates are up to when they're supposed to working on their ECDL at all at all at all?

[dcfcsteve]

MK Dons are another team. FA Cup winners in the 1980's, dropped from Premier Division to bottom flight in the space of a decade.

PS - see my earlier post on this for clarification.

MK Dons and Wimbledon FC are not the same team, they're merely related.

The MK Dons club and supporters agreed to hand over Wimbledon FC's miniature FA Cup trophy (that winners get to keep) and all the other WFC paraphenalia they had to Merton Borough Council (which contains Wimbledon) only last October.

So even Franchise FC themselves have publically acknowledged that their claim on Wimbledon FC's history is scant and not worth physically clinging on to.

AFC Wimbledon are the heirs to Wimbledon FC. Same badge, same colours, same fans, same part of London, same heroes. None of these can be said re the MK Dons.

[Poor Student]

Steve, I couldn't care less. The point of the thread is not to split hairs over MK Dons/Wimbledon. The same entity has plummeted from the top flight to the bottom flight.

[Cymro]

The tit who made it goes for the "look on Leeds fans face" line before cutting to a shot of the crown of someones skull and then flashing a three year old file picture of a child from the day we dropped out of the premiership AND THEN mispells PRICELESS.

He also claimed Richard Cresswell cost £1,150,000 MILLION-that's £1,150,000,000,000,000 or 150 thousand trillion pounds to the rest of us.

No wonder Leeds are in a bit of a financial pickle......:rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

It's a mere £1,150,000,000,000 - 1000 times less than you accuse Mr Ridsdale of wasting. ;)

Also, I don't think that's a typo at the end, but rather an allusion to Leeds fans' genital problems.

[geysir]

Most of these Leeds fans look like a bald version of Elton John.
On Saturday Ridsdale was blaming Dave O'Leary, that he just couldn't say no to big Dave. He has a point though when he says the slide coincided with Dave's book.
Is there any other big team whoose decline started with a book?
Could any book, even a book by O'Leary be so catastrophic?
Maybe the audio version could enduce a mass outbreak of overwhelming nausea.
Imagine anyone forking out cash to buy a book by D O'L.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I'd sooner say the trial than the book - the book just confirmed O'Leary to be as greedy, self obsessed and short-termist in their outlook as most people in the upper echelons of football.

[see's it]

D.O.L was so obsessed with himself he didnt go out on the training ground he reckoned he was to busy in the office,brian kidd did all the training and D.O.L fed the goldfish.i cant imagine Rafa not going to training.