Football and Socialism

[jebus]

Good article in the G2 magazine in the Guardian today for anyone who is interested in football's relationship with politics. It looks at Clough and Shankly and compares them to Thatcher's football playing supporters in the 80s and then with the modern day footballers, asking if you can still be left wing and a Premiership footballer. Well worth a read

[NeilMcD]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2064827,00.html

[Bluebeard]

It's a sad testament when the only Premiership players in England that they can suggest as having "Leanings" are Rio "join forces with the Government" Ferdinand, Gary "Comrade" Neville, and Britain's 4th richest footballer, Robbie Fowler.

The average Premiership weekly wage is quoted as being in excess of £12,300 or so (read it yesterday, cannot remember the figure). That is far more than our playing budget for the year, I reckon. Damnit, it's more than Shels.

[BohsPartisan]

I love this bit:

Wigan manager Paul Jewell's dad was a trade union activist in Liverpool. He keeps a pet tortoise called Trotsky.

[kingdom hoop]

Going back ten or so years, not sure when it ended, there used to be a kind of wealth redistribution system in place in England whereby the away team was entitled to a share of the gate receipts as well. The Proceeds Sharing System or something like that it was called. Another example of football losing its soul-cialism (say it quickly!)

[Dodge]

Try a do a bit of reading on Oleguer the Barcelona defender. He's a rampant socialist, who's published books on economics. Also turned down playing for Spain as he doesn't want to represent the country he feels is occupying Catalunya

[razor]

Excellent article but I did have to do a double take when I read this

Ferdinand is an intelligent man.

[Bluebeard]

Excellent article but I did have to do a double take when I read this

Mixing up Rio with Franz, I reckon

[dcfcsteve]

This is a non-story, that is more a societal issues than a footballing one.

They really are clutching at straws there to provide examples of left-leanings in contemporary English football. Thierry henry wears a Che Guevara T-Shirt because Guevara is an icon. Not because Henry is a socialist. And the example of Ferguson openly praising Blair and Brown as recently as 2005 is just plain embarassing - as if any socialist would've supported the people who took Britain into war in Iraq.

I'm not really sure why this article has decided to focus on football here,a s if it'#s a distinct change solely within the game. When politicians aren't even left-wing in Britain any more (bar the slowly dissolving rump in the Scottish assembly) how the hell can you expect anyone outside of politics to be ? And particularly the under-educated super-rich ?

Also - who the fcuk wants to look to the vacuuous male bimbos of English football for anything other than tips on sarongs and ear rings anyway ? I guarantee the majority of them have probably never even voted.

The old-fashioned left-right split in politics is dying a death anyway - particularly in Britain. It's not clear what will replace it - I suspect political differentiation around the degree of environmentalism will increasely be important - but the days of the state paying for your education, giving you a proper pension etc etc are over now. So football is merely echoing a national trend - not unusual in it. Some day the Guardian will wake up to that long-term development.

P.S. I regularly attend a lot of those weekly football seminars at UCL, and they are extremely interesting and revealing. Would highly recommend them to any other London-based posters.

P.P.S. I'm not sure why they mentioned Ferdinand and knives, whern he's much more involved in anti gun initiatives in Peckham at the moment. Doing something good for your community doesn't make you a socialist anyway - so this is another example of them clutching at straws to pad a non-story that is more a societal than a footballing issue.

[jebus]

In fairness Steve I think the writer was using the fact that Henry is considered as close as you can get to a leftie in the Premier these days solely because of his Che t-shirts as a point about how socialism has died out in football, ditto Ferdinand and Red Nev

[dcfcsteve]

In fairness Steve I think the writer was using the fact that Henry is considered as close as you can get to a leftie in the Premier these days solely because of his Che t-shirts as a point about how socialism has died out in football, ditto Ferdinand and Red Nev

I'm not convinced football was ever a hot-bed of socialism in the first place for there to be any sense of it 'dying out' anyway.

The decline of socialism is a politico-societal phenomenon, and has probably impacted football/sport less than almost any other facet of life. That's why writing an article on its decline in football feels like a thoroughly contrived bit of work. I suspect either the writer is a misty-eyed socialist (probably the wet, closeted middle-class type with a misty-eyed view of socialism in the first place, divorced from its uinworkable reality) or someone who was stuck for a bit of copy and came-up with an idea based on a visit by an Italian to London.

What next - 'The Decline of pre-teenage socialiam - you don't see primary school kids selling Socialisit Worker any more these days..' :eek: :D

[BohsPartisan]

I suspect either the writer is a misty-eyed socialist (probably the wet, closeted middle-class type with a misty-eyed view of socialism in the first place, divorced from its uinworkable reality)


Oh, you want to step into the ring Steve?
Roll up, Roll up (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=44152&highlight=Socialism+Ireland)

[dcfcsteve]

Oh, you want to step into the ring Steve?
Roll up, Roll up (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=44152&highlight=Socialism+Ireland)

I knew you'd bite SP......... ! :D

Of course Socialism works. That's why everywhere has it..... :p

[Lim till i die]

Of course Socialism works. That's why everywhere has it..... :p

Why that argument is so well thought out it belongs in the Socialism Thread as a final rebutal

GO!! TYPE NOW!! :rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

I knew you'd bite SP......... ! :D



Yeah I'm like a dog with a bone. ;)

[kingdom hoop]

I knew you'd bite SP......... ! :D

Of course Socialism works. That's why everywhere has it..... :p

In this age of democracy how could one hope to implement it;

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.;)

[BohsPartisan]

In this age of democracy how could one hope to implement it;



Click the link on my post above.

[kingdom hoop]

Click the link on my post above.

Yes I know, I was supporting you. In that the majority of people are stupid so we couldn't possibly hope that they could vote for the right thing. Sorry, not stupid, misguided.

[superfrank]

Going back ten or so years, not sure when it ended, there used to be a kind of wealth redistribution system in place in England whereby the away team was entitled to a share of the gate receipts as well. The Proceeds Sharing System or something like that it was called. Another example of football losing its soul-cialism (say it quickly!)
AFAIK, they still do a similar thing in the FA Cup. I remeber when Portsmouth played Man U at Old Trafford earlier this year they were entitled to something like 45% of gate receipts after expenses, iirc.

[dcfcsteve]

Why that argument is so well thought out it belongs in the Socialism Thread as a final rebutal

GO!! TYPE NOW!! :rolleyes:

I'm not your lacky buddy. You're not the boss of me. I have rights, you know...

:D

[Lim till i die]

I'm not your lacky buddy. You're not the boss of me. I have rights, you know...

:D

Stoopid Democracy :mad: :p

[dcfcsteve]

Yes I know, I was supporting you. In that the majority of people are stupid so we couldn't possibly hope that they could vote for the right thing. Sorry, not stupid, misguided.

Oh I get it now !

It's not the fact that socialism has been an abject failure everywhere its been tried.

It's not that socialism is inherently unworkable because it pretends that certain fundamental aspects of human nature don't exist.

It's not the fact that those advocating socialism have completely and utterly failed to present a convincing case for why people should vote for or support their ideology.

The reason we don't have socialism is that people are just too darn stupid - sorry, misguided - to know what's good for them.

Right on brother. I suspect you've lurched so far to the left that you've gone full circle and popped out on the extreme right, with an attitude like that.... :eek:

:o

[Lim till i die]

Right on brother. I suspect you've lurched so far to the left that you've gone full circle and popped out on the extreme right, with an attitude like that.... :eek:

:o

Happens me all the time :D

[dcfcsteve]

AFAIK, they still do a similar thing in the FA Cup. I remeber when Portsmouth played Man U at Old Trafford earlier this year they were entitled to something like 45% of gate receipts after expenses, iirc.

All major cup competitions do this. It's based on the principle that it's only luck of the draw that determines if you're home or away in the cup, so it's therefore fair to split the proceeds evenly.

They used to allow clubs to switch the ties on effectively money-making grounds (an interesting balancing of socialist redistribution and capitalist big-club influence), but that's been clamped-down on now

With league games, each club has a home and away tie with each other club, so the argument is why should the bigger, more popular clubs be effectively punished for their support levels by giving some of their income for league fixtures away to others. Take Dublin City, for example - they could probably have survived as a joke of a club by being a parasite off everyone else if we had that rule in Ireland for league games.

[kingdom hoop]

Oh I get it now !

It's not the fact that socialism has been an abject failure everywhere its been tried.

It's not that socialism is inherently unworkable because it pretends that certain fundamental aspects of human nature don't exist.

It's not the fact that those advocating socialism have completely and utterly failed to present a convincing case for why people should vote for or support their ideology.

The reason we don't have socialism is that people are just too darn stupid - sorry, misguided - to know what's good for them.

Right on brother. I suspect you've lurched so far to the left that you've gone full circle and popped out on the extreme right, with an attitude like that.... :eek:

:o

We can discuss such issues in context in the socialism or election threads. But anyway as I'm here

My gripe is with political democracy. I posted this back in January in the election thread. (excuse my not having found the shift key in my nascent foot.ie days)

"for a while now i have been thinking that political democracy should be confined to being the success of the 20th century but that the 21st century is time for a new revolt. president bush is the most obvious black sheep of democracy and perhaps global warming democracy's biggest catastrophe. politically i would align myself towards a meritocracy(a la singapore ). surely the most important organisation is the state and as such needs to be lead by capable people who are more than just your average bertie or george. at this stage in history the autocratic one man band is not going to re-emerge, so its now time to ditch political democracy and welcome a new era where we are guided by the best(most suitable) our society has to offer."

[BohsPartisan]

It's not the fact that socialism has been an abject failure everywhere its been tried.

It's not that socialism is inherently unworkable because it pretends that certain fundamental aspects of human nature don't exist.

It's not the fact that those advocating socialism have completely and utterly failed to present a convincing case for why people should vote for or support their ideology.




You've been told before Steve, theres a whole thread where myself, nightdub, sos and others presented a case so convincing for Socialism that our opponants had no comeback. If you do please present it in that thread.

[Lim till i die]

You've been told before Steve, theres a whole thread where myself, nightdub, sos and others presented a case so convincing for Socialism that our opponants had no comeback. If you do please present it in that thread.

Easy know it's election time

He's foaming at the mouth for a row :eek: :D