Best League in the World. [Archive]

NeilMcD

12/04/2007, 2:10 PM

Is the Premiership the best?
European Football
by Chris Bevan - BBC Sport 12 April 2007

comment on the article

So, English clubs rule the roost in Europe again.

The progress of Manchester United, Liverpool and Chelsea means three Premiership clubs are in the semi-finals of the Champions League for the first time.

But does that make our league the best in Europe?

United boss Sir Alex Ferguson thinks so:

"Six or seven years ago Spanish football was the best. But on the evidence of this season Barcelona and Real Madrid are not as near to where they were in previous years," Ferguson said.

"The competitive nature and the quality of the English game has improved over the seasons."

Ferguson is definitely right on one point. For various reasons, Barca and Real did not live up to their reputations this year.

But is the English game really as good as he thinks?

Sure, there are no problems at the top. United, Liverpool and Chelsea have proved that. And even Arsenal looked good until they reached the knockout stages.

But beyond that, the drop in quality is alarming � something that is actually down to the level of competition that Ferguson wrongly believes exists.

Only once since 2002 have our big four failed to carve up the Champions League spots, and it looks like being the same again this season too.

The lone intruder was Everton in 2005 and their campaign lasted all of one qualifying round. It does not say much for the rest of the Premiership does it?

Spain and Italy, who supplied three semi-finalists in 2000 and 2003, are traditionally England�s rivals for the crown of 'best league'.

You can discount Serie A, which is in turmoil after the match-fixing scandal in Italy.

That leaves La Liga, which has a strong case despite failing to provide a single team in the last-four of the Champions League this year.

The turnover of Spanish teams making an impact on European competition is greater than here.

As well as Barca, Real Madrid and Valencia � who have all won or reached the final in the past six years, Deportivo La Coruna and Villarreal have also made the last four.

Add that to this year's Uefa Cup, where three different teams in Espanyol, Osasuna and Sevilla are in the last eight � compared to just Tottenham from the Premiership.

Sevilla are challenging Barca and Real for their domestic title too.

So while I would not dispute that England's top four are dominant home and abroad, the greater competition in Spain means they still have a case for having the strongest league overall.

Risteard

12/04/2007, 2:22 PM

No denying the quality of the 3 semi-finalists.
They're all very well managed.

However, I just prefer watching La Liga matches regardless. More skill.
Apart from the Argentine national team, Barca are the team most likely to entertain out of any footie matches on the telly.

jebus

12/04/2007, 2:26 PM

Personally I think La Liga is the best league in the world, simply because they have the better teams overall. Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are all world beaters, but outside of that the quality in the Premership is very poor

Risteard

12/04/2007, 2:34 PM

Well, you're leaving out Arsenal there who play better footie than the other 3 and could easily mount a title challenge out of nowhere next season.
If you take 5th and 6th though against each other
It'd be
Bolton v Valencia
Everton v Atletico Madrid.

So point taken.

Also as good as Real or Barca tend to be, theres always a good few teams in the shake-up whereas in England, it's pretty obvious by December which team or pair of teams will be way out in front come February/ March.

anto1208

12/04/2007, 2:50 PM

The lone intruder was Everton in 2005 and their campaign lasted all of one qualifying round. It does not say much for the rest of the Premiership does it?

.

In fairness they where knocked out by villareal who went on to the semi finals .

I think the tide is turning in 2 or 3 years with the new money in the prem its only a matter of time 3 out of 4 teams in the semi finals speaks for itself . An english team in the Final for 3 years running ( including this year ) .

I personally cant stand spanish football its so boring not as boring as watching liverpool or chelsea though , I'd much prefere to watch arsenal play lovely flowing fooball than watch barca give the ball to ronaldinho .

centre mid

12/04/2007, 6:11 PM

Its kind of like asking what the best wine in the world, whats the best song, etc.. A lot of it has to do with personal opinion. If you like 100 mph, blood & guts, heart on your sleeve football, then EPL is one of the best, if you like to see to teams probing like master chess champions trying to find each others weakness and then pouncing then Italian football is your bag, or if you like to see to teams pass each other off the park la liga should be your first port of call.

Theres no doubt the SKY put together a very sexy package and thats definetly part of the reason why the EPL is banded about as the best league in the world.

superfrank

12/04/2007, 8:07 PM

I think SAF is just saying what the English media want to hear at the moment. This way if someone accuses them of hyping it up too much, which they do, they can point to him and say: "He thinks it too."

eirebhoy

12/04/2007, 9:33 PM

The premiership is the strongest league but I rarely watch it, unless there's an Irish player I want to see or I'm in the pub on a Sunday afternoon. I can't remember the last time I watched Chelsea for 90 minutes. I wasn't too fussed about Bayern - Milan last night but Spurs - Seville I couldn't wait for. I just like to watch attractive football and the premiership doesn't offer it a lot of the time. The Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish league and Serie A some of the time is great to watch. Liverpool - Chelsea in the CL doesn't do it for me at all.

Basically, flair players and poor defences does it for me. :D Although Cannavaro at the world cup was a joy to watch.

OwlsFan

13/04/2007, 10:11 AM

3 Spanish teams in UEFA Cup semis. Spaniards seem to have greater strength in depth but top English teams are able to attract the better players.

I note that none of the 8 ties in the quarter finals of both tournaments was won on the away goals rule. One of my bugbears that. Commentators almost die with excitement when an away goal is scored and treat the tie as almost being over. They are important in the event of a tie but by and large they are just goals - full stop.

NeilMcD

13/04/2007, 10:59 AM

Yeah but they do effect the physchology of the game. Last night Seville getting the second goal was a real killer for Spurs. I agree they are not as important as commentators like to make out but every commentator lives now in the world of hyperbole.

anto1208

13/04/2007, 11:18 AM

Jerry The Saint

13/04/2007, 11:23 AM

Looking forward to USA vs Russia in the Champions League final - it's like the Cold War never went away...

micls

13/04/2007, 11:55 AM

Prefer Spanish football myself

centre mid

13/04/2007, 1:03 PM

Looking forward to USA vs Russia in the Champions League final - it's like the Cold War never went away...

:D :D

Hibs4Ever

13/04/2007, 1:31 PM

DmanDmythDledge

13/04/2007, 1:50 PM

Semi-finalists mean fook all
So the fact that the Premiership has 3 out of the best 4 teams in Europe this season means nothing?

eirebhoy

13/04/2007, 2:08 PM

They have the strongest league atm, I don't know how anyone can deny that.

Neish

13/04/2007, 2:13 PM

Best league at present is the FA Premiership IMO.

anto1208

13/04/2007, 2:25 PM

Sky Sports News have been making a HUGE deal about this for past few days.

Spanish Clubs have won Champions League more than any other country, therefore they are the best.

Semi-finalists mean fook all

What strange lodgic , liverpool have won it 5 times yet they arent the best team in england .

Take out the 9 real bought

Over the post

13/04/2007, 2:28 PM

I think it's cyclical. The Spanish league is very poor this year. None of the big teams are performing. Madrid, Bar�a and Valencia are playing in fits and spurts and none of them seem to be clear favourites for the title. Sevilla have been excellent over the last two seasons but they've started to wobble recently; participating in three competitions seems to be taking its toll on what is essentially a medium-sized club. They're still a joy to watch though. The BBC article makes the point that while in the EPL you have basically four bit teams and then the rest. In Spain you could say that you have three or four really big clubs but the fact that they're underperforming has given wings to some of the "lesser" clubs such as Zaragoza, Sevilla, Espanyol, Racing who are challenging for Champions League and Uefa places for next season.

gustavo

13/04/2007, 2:40 PM

I think the top 4 English teams are as strong as if not better than the top 4 in Spain , but I think the Top 10 overall in Spain would be stronger than the top 10 in England. Not sure that makes sense , but i think the likes of Zaragoza , Valencia and Atletico Madrid would beat their English equivelants in terms of league places Everton , Reading and Bolton.

EDIT basically what Over the post said :)

jebus

13/04/2007, 3:25 PM

I think itc omes down to whether you enjoy football where there is a lot of competition, as in there being 6 points between the top 5 teams in La Liga, or a league crippled by the big 2 having more money than everyone else. I find it depressing that outside of the madness of the 1995 season, the Premiership has always been contested between United, Chelsea and Arsenal, with Leeds, Newcastle and Liverpool providing the odd distraction.

All I'll say to anyone judging on whether or not the best league in the world should be determined on one season's Champions League results is to ask whether ot not you thought the Portugese League was the best in the world back in 2004?

anto1208

13/04/2007, 3:46 PM

[QUOTE=jebus;665476] or a league crippled by the big 2 having more money than everyone else. QUOTE]

Would that be Real and Barca ? or AC and Inter ?

stojkovic

13/04/2007, 9:39 PM

What strange lodgic , liverpool have won it 5 times yet they arent the best team in england .

Take out the 9 real bought

Real bought nine European Cups, did they.

They had Kopa and di Stefano (robbed from Barca) but they had NINE Spanish players in their team for the first four wins. Puskas replacing Kopa for 1960 Final.

In 1966, the entire starting eleven were Spanish born.

In 1998 they had Carlos, Mijatovic and Redondo, but the other foreigners Illgner, Panucci and Karembau are hardly world class. Players like Raul, Morientes, Hierro and Sanchis pretty much came through the ranks.

In 2000 you can add Campo, Helguera, Cassillas and Salgado to the Spanish contingent of Raul, Morientes, Hierro and Sanchis, thats 8 Spanish players. Anelka replaced Mijatovic. McManamen was there too.

The only time they won it that you can claim they bought was 2002. When they had Carlos, Figo, Makelele and Zidane (McManamin sub).

Remember, Ronaldo has never won the European Cup.

Cymro

16/04/2007, 1:57 PM

They have the strongest league atm, I don't know how anyone can deny that.

As has been said La Liga offers much better depth than the Premiership. The Premiership may have 3 out of 4 semi-finalists in the CL but Spain has 3 out opf 4 in the UEFA. Seville beating Spurs als indicates that the level of depth is much better there.

If you go on the standard of just the top teams then the SPL could quite realistically proclaim itself to be one of the top 5 or 6 leagues in Europe.

DmanDmythDledge

16/04/2007, 2:45 PM

Seville beating Spurs als indicates that the level of depth is much better there.
I think that that shows it to be the other way round. The second best team in Spain (1 point off the lead) can only narrowly beat the team 7th in the Premiership.

Cymro

16/04/2007, 2:52 PM

I think that that shows it to be the other way round. The second best team in Spain (1 point off the lead) can only narrowly beat the team 7th in the Premiership.

How does that show it to be the other way around? It doesn't matter how many goals they won by, they still won and thus proved themselves to be a superior side.

All UEFA Cup teams are going to be good teams and lest we forget what happened in last year's final? Boro absolutely outclassed by Seville.

Also, the fact that Seville only qualified for the UEFA Cup this year yet are 2nd in the league serves only to highlight my point about depth. Can you see Spurs finishing top 2 in the Premiership in the forseeable future? Not with Chelsea and Man Utd around that's for sure.

DmanDmythDledge

16/04/2007, 3:26 PM

How does that show it to be the other way around? It doesn't matter how many goals they won by, they still won and thus proved themselves to be a superior side.

I think it's obvious that how it shows it to be the other way round. If La Liga was a higher standard than the Premiership do you not think the second best team in Spain would beat the seventh best team in England by more than a goal over two games?

All UEFA Cup teams are going to be good teams and lest we forget what happened in last year's final? Boro absolutely outclassed by Seville.

The 5th best team in Spain at the time against the 14th best team in England at the time- hardly surprising or a fair comparison to make.

Also, the fact that Seville only qualified for the UEFA Cup this year yet are 2nd in the league serves only to highlight my point about depth. Can you see Spurs finishing top 2 in the Premiership in the forseeable future? Not with Chelsea and Man Utd around that's for sure.

Your point there about Seville is irrelevent as no one team is the same year after year, even with the same personnel.

I think that just shows that the standard is higher in the Premiership and that's why it's so difficult for teams to break-up the current top 4 quartet. Barcelona, the best team in Spain, lost to Liverpool, the third best team in England. That, along with Seville's narrow victory over Spurs, shows the difference in standard between the leagues. La Liga may have more teams involved in the title race which provides more excitement as the season comes to a close, but this is only because the top teams in Spain aren't as strong as the top teams in England.

jebus

16/04/2007, 3:42 PM

[QUOTE=jebus;665476] or a league crippled by the big 2 having more money than everyone else. QUOTE]

Would that be Real and Barca ? or AC and Inter ?

Are you talking about Barca (We were **** a few years back), Real (We haven't won anything in years) or AC (we might scrape into the Champions League qualifiers) or Inter (we are going to win our first proper league in nearly two decades)?

If you're going to make a comment like that anto at least watch European football for more than a season

Cymro

16/04/2007, 4:41 PM

I think it's obvious that how it shows it to be the other way round. If La Liga was a higher standard than the Premiership do you not think the second best team in Spain would beat the seventh best team in England by more than a goal over two games?

No. I can't believe you're suggesting a league is of a higher standard than another because one of its teams lost to one in that league. Where's the logic in that? Obviously the gap isn't huge between those two sides, but I'm not claiming a huge gulf between the two leagues.

The 5th best team in Spain at the time against the 14th best team in England at the time- hardly surprising or a fair comparison to make.

Again, see above point. It hardly shows that the Premiership is of a higher standard. You're logic's all wrong. Not to mention, Boro were absolutely hammered in that one which just makes my case stronger rather than weakening it.

I think that just shows that the standard is higher in the Premiership and that's why it's so difficult for teams to break-up the current top 4 quartet. Barcelona, the best team in Spain, lost to Liverpool, the third best team in England. That, along with Seville's narrow victory over Spurs, shows the difference in standard between the leagues. La Liga may have more teams involved in the title race which provides more excitement as the season comes to a close, but this is only because the top teams in Spain aren't as strong as the top teams in England.

Your point about Barcelona's defeat to Liverpool is all well and good, but your second (about the Premiership being stronger because one of its sides lost to a Spanish side by a low margin) is rubbish, as said earlier. Also, how can you claim the top teams aren't as strong in Spain when it is a Spanish sides that currently holds the European Cup, UEFA Cup and European Super Cup. When was the last time an English side won all three of those?

Also:

Spain boasts the highest UEFA coefficient and its clubs have won more European trophies.

I could also use your above point:

"Your point there about Seville is irrelevent as no one team is the same year after year, even with the same personnel."

to say that despite Barcelona having gone out of this year's competition they won it last year and could very well do it next year. It's basically the same argument you used.

At the end of the day in a debate over which of two leagues is the stronger/where two leagues stand in relation to each other all you can go on is facts. They speak for themselves.

kingdom hoop

16/04/2007, 5:44 PM

At the end of the day in a debate over which of two leagues is the stronger/where two leagues stand in relation to each other all you can go on is facts.

But it's a debate, so opinions and differing judgment criteria will have to come into play. A match between teams from different leagues cannot, despite being the most objective test, conclusively prove anything in my view. That's why I would look elsewhere to try solve the conundrum.

In my mind the technical finesse of La Liga is inordinately supreme vis-a-vis the Premiership, and is the reason I rate La Liga higher. It is said the Premiership attracts the best players, but I don't think they are the best ball players, maybe physically, mentally superior but not the most skillful. One of the reasons I would give for this is the origin of the players. In La Liga there are an awful lot of Argies and Brazilians - definitely the best countries for producing footballers - who would rather not delve into the hurly-burly world of the Premiership. This is an indictment of the league's style as much as a player's whims.

This question has no right answer, just a series of thoughts that can vary wildly from person to person that can draw on multiple factors. Attempting to categorise a 'best league' is nigh on impossible. What do you look at? Players, managers, clubs engendering community spirit, stadium atmosphere, too many, or not enough, imports? Within which you could further make classifications. But I guess the ultimate answer lies in the question 'if you have to watch one match from a league, with randomly selected teams, which league would you choose?' For me, that league is La Liga because I know I've a better chance of seeing players of a technical quality light years away from my own humble endeavours! That match may not have the cut and thrust of a Premiership tie, the raucousness of a hopping Bundesliga ground or the tactical manoeuvrings of a Serie A spar, but its what I want, I think:)

Cymro

16/04/2007, 6:35 PM

Opinions are all right if you have no hard facts or evidence to go on. You can just simply agree to differ in those instances because there's no way of settling it in a reasonably agreeable manner.

But you can't say 'my opinion is right cause I say so'. I went through the same thing in the debate we had over the relative levels of the Welsh league and the League of Ireland, where I was getting a lot of people who disagreed with me just dismissing the facts. It's so easy to do that, so opinions shouldn't be sufficient to prove something.

In this case I have quoted the two most objective things you can use to settle such a debate: European coefficients and trophies won. These count all results from a given period and give a better indicator of actual league strength as opposed to one season's results.

I've also shown that the depth in the Spanish league is better as shown by their recent dominance of the UEFA Cup and if pushed feel reasonably confident I could back up my opinion that the top teams in both leagues are pretty much on a par.

Although in this case we actually agree on the subject matter, so I shouldn't really be arguing with you. :p

And by the way, in my opinion, on entertainment value, La Liga also wins every time for me also. Though I am also a fan of the Premiership, less so the Italian Serie A. Find it too slow paced and not enough goals, though it can be interesting to watch.

BohsPartisan

16/04/2007, 8:48 PM

Bolton v Valencia
Everton v Atletico Madrid.

I don't see why Bolton and Everton would be big underdogs there.

Jamjar

16/04/2007, 9:26 PM

OwlsFan

17/04/2007, 7:17 AM

I've heard some daft reasoning in my time, but to suggest that the Spainish league is better than the english premiership (at the moment) because it's more 'competitive' is rubbish. The only yardstick to use is the Champions league, and, there are 3 english teams in the semi final. Maybe the word competitive could be replaced with average.

Your logic isn't necessarily correct. Let's say for the sake of argument the top 4 English clubs are excellent and the rest are rubbish, does that make the league the best in Europe? The results in the CL and UEFA Cup would tend to show that the top English teams are better while the mid-ranking Spanish teams are better. I suspect if all the English Premier league teams played all the La Liga teams there wouldn't be much between the two in the overall results.

Cymro

17/04/2007, 12:55 PM

kingdom hoop

17/04/2007, 1:42 PM

That's not what I was suggesting. I said that the top teams were just as good in Spain as in England and the 5th-12th placed teams were stronger.

Not forgetting 13th placed, and UEFA Cup semi-finalists, Osasuna!

micls

17/04/2007, 1:54 PM

Cymro

17/04/2007, 3:06 PM

Not forgetting 13th placed, and UEFA Cup semi-finalists, Osasuna!

Of course! :D

Jamjar

17/04/2007, 9:13 PM

That's not what I was suggesting. I said that the top teams were just as good in Spain as in England and the 5th-12th placed teams were stronger.

Again history would tend to back that up, as ould the UEFA coefficient.

Quite obviously the top teams in Spain aren't as good (this season) as in england. If the top 3 teams in Italy or Germany or Spain were in the semi final of the champions league nobody would argue that they had the best league.By the way, I've no particular bias for or against any league.

Cymro

17/04/2007, 9:30 PM

How do you be sure of that? I really doubt that one season's results serve as enough proof as to what is the better league. As Jebus said, was the Portuguese league the strongest back in '04?

I suppose we can agree that this season the Premiership teams have generally outperformed Spanish ones (although Spain looks very much on course to retain the UEFA Cup) however who's to say that next year it won't be the other way around with pretty much the same squads?

As I said, you have to look at results over a period of time wherever possible as opposed to one season's results. Otherwise you're basically saying that the Portuguese and French leagues really were the strongest in Europe in '04 (due to providing both finalists), even though it is widely accepted that they weren't and it was merely a one-off.

danonion

18/04/2007, 3:26 AM

Overall quality of La Liga better than the overall quality of the premier league? Can't say I agree. I've watched Levante on p2p television loads of times (the Ian Harte interest) and I think Sheffield United (another team I watch all the time) would tear them apart. The squads of the lower La Liga teams are tiny and the quality is s-h-i-t-e.

BohsPartisan

18/04/2007, 8:28 AM

I still reckon Everton would Beat Athletico or Valencia right now. They have a superb record against the top six sides but have been let down by results against the Sheffield Uniteds. They've beaten Arsenal, beaten Liverpool convincingly at home and drew away. They were unlucky against Chelsea at home to concede late in the game. Man for man its a better Everton side than finished fourth in 2005 and were subsequently robbed by Collina against Villareal. Pointw wise, theres not much seperating 3rd place to 6th.

3 Arsenal 34 18 8 8 57 31 26 62
4 Liverpool 33 18 7 8 50 22 28 61
5 Everton 34 14 12 8 46 30 16 54
6 Bolton 34 16 6 12 41 42 -1 54

jebus

18/04/2007, 10:37 AM

kingdom hoop

18/04/2007, 4:39 PM

I still reckon Everton would Beat Athletico or Valencia right now.

Maybe, unlikely in my book though! But the point is more that Spanish teams have consistently been better at exporting over the last number years, ie in European competition have outperformed teams from elsewhere. The impressive thing is the diversity of teams from Spain that do well. Like this year league also-rans Espanyol and Osasuna are in the semis of the UEFA Cup, and about six years ago absolute minnows Alaves and Rayo Vallecano got to the semis, intermingled with decent showings from other lesser lights like Villarreal, Betis, Celta and more recently Sevilla. Its fair enough to claim that the likes of Everton, Spurs would beat their Spanish counterparts but only Newcatle and Middlesborough have done anyway decent in Europe recently. Likewise the point that Levante would be hammered by Sheffield United is very arguable. If the Premiership was better overall would it not have resulted in more successful European campaigns?

This may suggest many things but in this debate perhaps it's worth making the distinction between internal or external monitoring - judging a league in isolation or, alternatively, comparing it to others(presumably what we're doing) with the use of available data. If you go by the latter then I fail to see a basis for arguing that the English league is best, outside of the overly short-term point of the three English Champions League semi-finalists this year. Until Bolton, Everton etc start doing something in Europe I think it's safe to say that the quality of football played in Spain is better

BohsPartisan

19/04/2007, 9:12 AM

Don't know about Levante but I saw Alaves in the flesh last year and thought they had a defence that Galway couldn't fail to penetrate.

kingdom hoop

20/04/2007, 12:44 PM

Don't know about Levante but I saw Alaves in the flesh last year and thought they had a defence that Galway couldn't fail to penetrate.

I was talking about Alaves in the halcyon Javi Moreno days when they lost to Liverpool in that epic final. That feat would be much the same as Reading getting to the final next year. The thing is such lengthy European adventures are pretty commonplace for Spanish clubs, like Alaves' Basque cousins Osasuna this year.

I would judge a league firstly by the standard of play in that league, which is then put to test when the teams from that league play abroad. If the Premiership was the best would this not have been borne out in Europe over the past several years? I don't see the same relevance in comparing 3rd v 3rd etc.

Why are standings in La Liga more capricious? Perhaps because the gulf in footballing ability between the top and bottom sides is way less than in the Premiership. When a 'bad' team beats a good team in La Liga it's by playing better football than their opponent and not from being more up for it or more aggressive as is the case in England. Thats a big difference for me

Cymro

20/04/2007, 2:49 PM

This page (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2007.html) shows Spanish sides to be well ahead of English ones, by the way.

Spain nearly ten coefficient points ahead of England.

jebus

02/05/2007, 8:37 PM

If we're deciding who's league is better on the basis of who have the better performances in the Champions League this year than would it be fair to say that it's between Serie A and the Premiership? And that given Milan's thumping of United tonight than Serie A is a better league?

Answer: No it wouldn't, La Liga is still better than both :)

Billy Lord

02/05/2007, 11:02 PM

Surely the concept of the 'best league in the world' is nothing more than nonsense? Are Bolton better than Sampdoria? Is the seventh-best-placed team in Poland better than the top three in Moldova? Have you sad buggers nothing else to do with your time?
The Champions League is hardly a fair barometer as it's heavily-weighed in favour of certain countries rather than based on a fair contest between national champions like it used to be. Look at the likes of Ajax, who are now peripheral to a contest that they won easily when there was equality. But that doesn't suit the big boys because they prefer a closed shop and lots of happy-clappy fans.
Can you imagine the Eurovision Song Contest being so loaded? At least it's fair. You're being sold a pup yet you lap it up because TV tells you what to think and you accept it.
You deserve Liverpool.