Nurses Strike

[pete]

Will the nurses get their demands (10% pay rise & reduction to 35 hour working week i believe) or will the government dig its heels in?

Is there Public support for the Nurses Unions stance & will it be reduced by threats of work stoppages?

IMO there isn't as much support for nurses as in the past as I seem to remember a strike a few years back with little support.

I can't comment if their claims are valid but the Labour Court did rule that they should have them addressed via Benchmarking. Of course the government has done some other deals outside benchmarking which doesn't help its case.

I can't help feeling the strike is opportunist just before an election.

INO (http://www.ino.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=6296)

[BohsPartisan]

There is usually good support for Nurses as people know they are hard working. There is a problem that ward assistants, I don't know if that is their correct title who the nurses supervise actually earn more than the nurses. They are fully justified in their actions. The most under paid and over worked proffession in the country.

[Risteard]

Here here.
Friend of mine is a nurse.
Always thought she was as tough as nails but her boyfriend tells me she gets very stressed out about work.
Its as if everyday is the busiest day ever in the place and the workload is ridiculous.

[Lionel Ritchie]

They are fully justified in their actions. The most under paid and over worked proffession in the country.

Too true.

[jebus]

Fully support the nurses on this one, I have a friend who is a nurse and she's the hardest working human being I've ever encountered, never moans about the conditions they have to work under, but has mentioned their pay on a few occasions

[pete]

I remember the last Nurses strike & public support vanished once they stopped working.

My only recent experience of a hospital was when father was recovering from heart surgery. The nurses seemed good & professional but no evidence that they rushed off their feet. They appeared to work in shifts & clocked in & out like any other job.

Nurses have got good pay increase through benchmarking already so seems opportunist to be renegating on agreement now they not getting their way. Had a look at the pay rates on the INO website & don't seem to low...

For what its worth can't see the government doing u-turn on wages as would be free for all in the public sector then with every other union queuing up for wages increases outside benchmarking.

[Peadar]

Thanks to the nurses who were happy to allow my dad sit in A&E for twelve hours before sending him home at 3am and dragging him back 6 hours later.

[drummerboy]

While I agree they do deserve more pay for certain duties, I think their action is wrong. They should go through the benchmarking system. There is no way the Government can treat them differently to other public servants. If they do it will be open season. They certainly haven't the same amount of public support they had in previous desputes.

[monutdfc]

IMO, the problem is that they have been taken advantage of for years because they never resorted to strike and they had a 'vocation'. (It might be a vocation but it is also a job like any other and most nurses now have degrees or equivalent and should be paid as such.) As a result their pay has fallen so far behind that it is hard to see how they can catch up within the benchmarking process.
But as happened before public sympathy will quickly disappear as the work-to-rule goes on.

[anto1208]

The thing is they end up after 4 years of insanly hard college / co-op working to get there degree they still end up getting less than a care assistant who can just walk in off the street .

I was listening to lots of people ringing into joe duffy saying things like i work hard in my accountancy job doing similar hours etc etc but in fairness they arent on there feet all day, lifting heavy people in and out of beds and if they make a mistake no one dies !!!

[pete]

I don't think this is a debate of who has hard or easy job. Lots of people have hard jobs so pointless debate.

I only started this thread as its close to an election & nurses provide vital service where lives can be put at risk if not working. Can we keep the personal comments out of this debate.

If nurses are earning less than care assistants then surely that claim can be handled via Benchmarking? TBH no idea what a care assistant is anyway.

IMO if someone wants a 35 hour working week then should move to France.

10% pay increase is a large amount of money & as I said benchmarking was acceptable when getting large increases in previous years so now its not good enough?

[Ringo]

My only recent experience of a hospital was when father was recovering from heart surgery. The nurses seemed good & professional but no evidence that they rushed off their feet. They appeared to work in shifts & clocked in & out like any other job.
.

i was in hospital recently & by no means were they run off their feet. My 15 month was in hospital and the care was a disgrace. The fact i stayed with her meant the nurses had to do sweet FA, even then trying to get her pain relietf( calpol, your having a laugh) was a drama. caring profession my a$$. Its a job & their holding sick children to ransom, very caring.:mad:

[Clifford]

Simple fact is it's such a crap profession for the ones who do care, Ringo, that anymore of the abuse and borderline slavery they have to put up with will end up with us have no-one working there. There is about a 70% drop out rate at the moment and then where will we be if that continues?

I'm involved in this matter closely as my wife's a mid-wife who left the system through bullying and sheer exhaustion. No one in their right minds would question the actions of the honest nurses if they saw her condition when she came home from every shift. As it happens the pay and working hours didn't bother her or her front line collegues in the slightest (obviously they would welcome both but can't see it happening), it's being treated like a slave by the hse and patients/patients visitors/patients relatives that annoy her most. Sometimes when the abuse reached disgusting levels, there might have been a slim chance someone would do something, but other than that they are just chewing gum on the shoes of Mary Harney in her ivory tower and Joe Public. I wrote to the fine example for Health Minister to ask her to come and spend a week on the ward with my missus, free of all the hangers on. One on one if you like. I promise she wouldn't last a morning, but I can assure you I won't get a reply.

Therein lies the problem, the system is riddled with bullying and it starts at the top I'm afraid.

[bennocelt]

I can't help feeling the strike is opportunist just before an election.

INO (http://www.ino.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=6296)


it wouldnt make much sense to have a strike after an election, that would be daft


i think most people are with the nurses, despite all the negative propaganda from the media
why shouldnt they get more money

how much is that ex bus conductor on?

[Ringo]

Their pay is comparitve to teachers, gardai & prison officers according to the RTE news last night. looking for 10% and reduction to 35 hours is greedy. How many people on this board work 35 hours? Porters , ambulance drivers & all other health care employees work 39 hours. How many of us can use sick people to force a wage increase out of our employer? they should accept bench marking. if the government give the nurses all they are looking for , the other civil servants will be looking for comparable increases & working hours.

[kingdom hoop]

it wouldnt make much sense to have a strike after an election, that would be daft


i think most people are with the nurses, despite all the negative propaganda from the media
why shouldnt they get more money



the rub is that while the nurses may well be deserving of better pay/conditions the manner they are proceeding with their claim is outside the scope of the well established and effective benchmarking body, and could prove to be a watershed victory for public sector unions and precipitate a raft of leapfrogging demands. in my view it's because they feel staunchly entitled to improvements that they feel they can go straight to the top. i think this is poor tactics as if they went through the benchmarking process its likely they would fare just as well, without any of the uncertainty and tension that strikes entail. if we look back to the ASTI dispute six(?) years ago the public at first supported the action however the mood swung on account of the mutinous, gung-ho approach of the ASTI who were adamant they deserved more. like that case when students were hampered coming up to exams there will be public outcry to stop the strike for the sake of patients and their families, and the good work the nurses do will be forgotten about with the role of the respective PR departments becoming paramount with the Government having the added incentive/worry of the election

[Ringo]

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=22569-qqqx=1.asp

About half of the country’s nurses work family-friendly shifts, with part-time arrangements and flexitime. There are no signs of a breakthrough in the deadlocked nurses’ dispute for more pay and reduced hours, as nurses prepare for an escalation to rolling work stoppages from Wednesday.

In some hospitals, more than half of the nurses enjoys flexible working practices, including part-time, family-friendly, and flexitime rosters, with tens of thousands of nurses working less than the existing 39-hour week.

In the Mater Hospital in Dublin, for example,68 per cent of nurses work part-time, with management running 70 rosters, while in hospitals in the southern region, 42 per cent work less than 39 hours a week.

In the new Cork University Maternity Hospital, 68 per cent of nursing staff work part time.

The most popular roster is a three-day week based on a 12hour shift.

‘‘That level of flexibility cannot continue if you take a huge number of working hours out of the system,” the source said.

[GavinZac]

its a public relations disaster for them im afraid. whatever the truth about their work, they probably would have had a lot of appreciation and support before the action. holding a gun to loved one's heads and demanding money is not going to be a popular move, and thats how anyone with children or relatives in hospital will view this - a direct threat, or at least negligence toward their loved one's health.

[Vitruvian Man]

Ringo, I think both you and the SBP are missing the point of the flexible health care rosters in your efforts to put a bad spin on what the nurses are doing.

My wife works in public health care (though not nursing) and the job is very family friendly because the VAST MAJORITY of the people working in her area are women. The reason there are many flexible and family friendly rosters for nurses is not because the management are the kindest of souls but is an industry requirement to incentivise the people with the skills to stay in their posts as their life situation changes. If the HSE was to drive these women back into their homes to look after their families then they will be facing a huge skills shortage. Eventually they will be begging the nurses to take a 35 hour flexible week with pay raises just to get them back.

Of course, that is if one of the countries most inefficient and incompetent management teams ever even notices the pain and suffering they caused to their patients due to not having enough skilled staff.

The SBP is just reporting empty waffle from Harney - who knows damn well that they need the skilled people working in the hospitals. But then that's what the PD's are all about - talking tough for their shrinking handful of rich constituencies.

I’m sorry you had a bad experience last time you were involved with the health care system. I did myself and it was also down to incompetent nursing. But it doesn’t make me want to tar them all with the same brush.

But if you want to focus your ire I’ll tell you a little anecdote which might point you in the direction where the real problem lies.

My missus moved into a brand new section of her hospital a few years back. All mod cons including two new machines at a cost of 250000 euro the pair - to perform a certain type of blood test. Up until the purchase of the machines the test had been outsourced to a private hospital at a cost of 4000 euro per day. A request was duely put in to hire two staff to operate the machines – and this was refused. They are still in their boxes and the hospital is still spending 4 grand a day to get the tests done.

Now, riddle me this.
What kind of board of management would sign a PO for a quarter of a million bucks for machines they knew in advance they would not hire staff to run. Why buy the machines?
Secondly, if your tests cost you 4000 per day to get done, plus you have the machines, and two skilled staff would cost you a maximum of 500 quid per day, is this not the proverbial “no-brainer”.

The only clue I’ll give you in this brain twister is that one of the consultants on the board of management of this public hospital (ie HSE official) is also on the board of management (ie a shareholder) of the private hospital which…. wait for it… does the 4000 grand a day blood tests.




Wowza.

[Clifford]

its a public relations disaster for them im afraid. whatever the truth about their work, they probably would have had a lot of appreciation and support before the action. holding a gun to loved one's heads and demanding money is not going to be a popular move, and thats how anyone with children or relatives in hospital will view this - a direct threat, or at least negligence toward their loved one's health.

The patients are at no risk whatsoever, with the work to rule situation they are receiving better care cos the nurses and midwives aren't wasting their time with the admin crap that they should not have to do in the first place.

Vitruvian Man, spot on. Exceptionally well put and the anecdote at the end is happening in a lot more instance than that one.

[Ringo]

The patients are at no risk whatsoever, with the work to rule situation they are receiving better care cos the nurses and midwives aren't wasting their time with the admin crap that they should not have to do in the first place.

Vitruvian Man, spot on. Exceptionally well put and the anecdote at the end is happening in a lot more instance than that one.


I think patients are at risk, not properly recording information or booking tests, leaving people waiting longer isn't putting people at risk? As for vitruvian's well put anecdote, if this is truely the case why isn't this exposed, surely corrupion at this level should be exposed. But its a story with very few facts, but its a good spin story for the poor nurses. The fact remains they have a good thing going with flexible hours & yes it probably suits both sides, at the moment. The fact remains giving the nurses 10% and a 35 hour wek will mean a knock on effect to all other civil servants & that just can't be allowed to happen.

[bennocelt]

I think patients are at risk, not properly recording information or booking tests, leaving people waiting longer isn't putting people at risk? As for vitruvian's well put anecdote, if this is truely the case why isn't this exposed, surely corrupion at this level should be exposed. But its a story with very few facts, but its a good spin story for the poor nurses. The fact remains they have a good thing going with flexible hours & yes it probably suits both sides, at the moment. The fact remains giving the nurses 10% and a 35 hour wek will mean a knock on effect to all other civil servants & that just can't be allowed to happen.

why not, how much are the guys in the HSE on? or the politicans?

working in a busy hospital in dublin is HARD WORK

wake up, if we cant pay nurses a decent salary then we might as well all give up

[Tricks]

There is usually good support for Nurses as people know they are hard working. There is a problem that ward assistants, I don't know if that is their correct title who the nurses supervise actually earn more than the nurses. They are fully justified in their actions. The most under paid and over worked proffession in the country.


care assistants dont get paid more, dunno where you got that from. any how nurses do have a hard job, working in bad conditions, but from my experience the hardest thing about working in any hospital is working in a female dominated environment, i mean your talking serious hissy fits most days and very bad management at all levels, and i'v personaly seen insidents of racism among staff. a reduced working week and more money isnt going to make nurses happier in their job, although some nurses deserve it, others are less deserving, and id go as far as to say a significant number of nurses arent fit to wear the uniform, their reputation is built on the back of others.

[kingdom hoop]

why not, how much are the guys in the HSE on? or the politicans?

working in a busy hospital in dublin is HARD WORK

wake up, if we cant pay nurses a decent salary then we might as well all give up

nobody(i hope!) would argue that they don't deserve a decent wage. but the government is in a pickle because if it acquiesces to the, perhaps reasonable, demands then it is setting a precedent for other public sector unions to come knocking, ie a spectre of a system bedraggled by conflict and so-called leapfrogging looms on the horizon. thats why its kinda annoying the nurses see themselves as unique and couldnt process their claim in a more appropriate format.

and as for bringing up tales of corruption now to add to their side and try endear the public why couldnt we have heard about such villainy before.

[Ringo]

The average wage according to the pappers yesterday is €56,000. which doesn't put them on the breadline:rolleyes: similar to Gardai & prison officers, who also spend all day on their feet, work shift work & one could argue have a worse job.

[Ringo]

Very interesting to see the both Fine Gael & Labour are not backing the nurses claims.

[Clifford]

Ringo, no patients are going to be put at risk, the nurses are looking for respect/answers not law suits. As for your impression that a person will have to wait a few more days/weeks for something that they have been waiting 2/3 years for I give up.

My wife would have to have stayed in the system for another 20 or so years to go up to about 40,000k a year from the money she was on when she left. That was after 7 years in the system and 5 years degree level educating as well.

Facts are if the situation remains the same as it is there will be no nurses left. The lack of uptake of training positions and the drop out rate after qualification will end up killing off what is left of the already depleted resources, thats whats happening in my front line experience through my wife, who is another one gone from a profession she loved, but couldn't do anymore.

As I stated before most of the nurses couldn't care less about the wages and hours as long as they weren't treated like slaves by the bully's in power. It so happens that this dispute is looking like being the straw that broke the camels back. It's been brewing and ignored for 27 years by people who couldn't give a hoot, assuming the good old nurses would be there to be walked on forever.

I totally agree with Tricks that there are some woeful nurses out there, shocking in the extreme, same as in any walk of life, but until the training regieme (sp?) get's changed that won't change as there are too many easy ways for a Slacker to join in for the ride.

[kingdom hoop]

As I stated before most of the nurses couldn't care less about the wages and hours as long as they weren't treated like slaves by the bully's in power


strikes often overshadow broader malaise, unfortunately this looks like an acute case.

[bennocelt]

Very interesting to see the both Fine Gael & Labour are not backing the nurses claims.


that says more about how useless the opposition are, as usual

[Poor Student]

The patients are at no risk whatsoever, with the work to rule situation they are receiving better care cos the nurses and midwives aren't wasting their time with the admin crap that they should not have to do in the first place.


Untrue. I have spent many full days in the hospital with a relative this year and nothing has changed with work to rule in regards to extra care for patients.

[anto1208]

I don't think this is a debate of who has hard or easy job. Lots of people have hard jobs so pointless debate.

I only started this thread as its close to an election & nurses provide vital service where lives can be put at risk if not working. Can we keep the personal comments out of this debate.

If nurses are earning less than care assistants then surely that claim can be handled via Benchmarking? TBH no idea what a care assistant is anyway.

IMO if someone wants a 35 hour working week then should move to France.

10% pay increase is a large amount of money & as I said benchmarking was acceptable when getting large increases in previous years so now its not good enough?

First off they arent stopping working , no nurses are walking out in the middle of surgery etc like the hospital bosses and goverment are making out all they are doing is just nursing they arent going to be doing the work of other people . So that means no making phone calls that the admin staff are paid to do . No cleaning toilets that the cleaning staff are paid to do etc .

Everyone else in healthcare works a 35 hour week except nurses .

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

[Erstwhile Bóz]

I'm up for the nurses big-time but can anybody tell me are they carrying out the plan to answer only the important telephone calls? I heard that at the start of the campaign and it struck me as a bit laughable. Different ringtones, etc., etc.

[Ringo]

Everyone else in healthcare works a 35 hour week except nurses .

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

Please quote your sources for your remarks otherwise their worthless huff & puff:rolleyes: . if inflation is about 3.5%, how will your employer or any employer keep paying 10% per annum.

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2007/20070403.html

70% of the workforce in the health sector are contracted to work a 39 hour week and that nurses account for only half of that figure. Nursing support staff, such as health care assistants, attendants and porters, as well as NCHDs and ambulance personnel, also work a 39 hour week.

The two nurses organisations are seeking a Dublin weighting allowance. The estimated cost of granting an allowance of €3,800 to Dublin-based nurses would be in excess of €52m per annum. All other public servants in Dublin would seek a similar allowance. If an allowance were granted to all public servants in Dublin the annual cost would be in excess of €252m.


– Sustaining Progress – gave cumulative pay increases to nurses of 13.16%
This was in addition to Benchmarking increases of between 8% (Staff Nurses) and 16 % (Directors of Nursing).
Nurses’ pay has increased by between 75 per cent to 103 per cent across grades since 1997.

The basic pay of a newly-qualified staff nurses, before premium shift pay, is €31,233. This compares with the average industrial wage of €31,360 last September.
The average annual salary in 2005 was €56,000.

[pete]

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

27k is for graduate nurse. Average wage for a staff nurse is 40k which hardly breadline stuff as no doubt the pension is decent enough. A 20% increase (reduction in hours equates to another 10%) is unrealistic & I read somewhere that would cost 1 billion to fund (i am open to correction on this if anyone can find links) which by my calculations is 500 euro from every tax payer (i am assuming 2m tax payers).

Based on 40k salary for 39 hour week thats 19 euro per hour. A 10% rise plus reduction in working hours would lead to 24 euro per hour wage.

For some reason it is unacceptable to criticise the nurses.

Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?

[Clifford]

Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?


Are they solely to blame for that in your opinion?

[anto1208]

Please quote your sources for your remarks otherwise their worthless huff & puff:rolleyes: . if inflation is about 3.5%, how will your employer or any employer keep paying 10% per annum.

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2007/20070403.html

70% of the workforce in the health sector are contracted to work a 39 hour week and that nurses account for only half of that figure. Nursing support staff, such as health care assistants, attendants and porters, as well as NCHDs and ambulance personnel, also work a 39 hour week.

The two nurses organisations are seeking a Dublin weighting allowance. The estimated cost of granting an allowance of €3,800 to Dublin-based nurses would be in excess of €52m per annum. All other public servants in Dublin would seek a similar allowance. If an allowance were granted to all public servants in Dublin the annual cost would be in excess of €252m.


– Sustaining Progress – gave cumulative pay increases to nurses of 13.16%
This was in addition to Benchmarking increases of between 8% (Staff Nurses) and 16 % (Directors of Nursing).
Nurses’ pay has increased by between 75 per cent to 103 per cent across grades since 1997.

The basic pay of a newly-qualified staff nurses, before premium shift pay, is €31,233. This compares with the average industrial wage of €31,360 last September.
The average annual salary in 2005 was €56,000.

You went to Mary Harney for your facts :rolleyes:

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/articles/Documents/Submission%208Claims%2020Jun06.doc


Nurses and Midwives are the only officer grades in the public service who work a 39 hour week. Within the health service Nurses and Midwives constitute the largest single group of officers yet they are alone in the requirement to work a 39 hour week.

The Eastern Regional Health Authority, when it was in existence, publicly advertised their clerical administrative grades as having a requirement to work 33.75 hours per week. Likewise all of their therapeutic grades and laboratory grades are recorded as having a 33.75 hours requirement. This would be typical of the working week for such grades throughout the health service with no examples exceeding a 35 hour week.

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, according to the Irish Medical Organisation, work a 39 hour week which is officially recorded by the Health Boards as 9am to 5pm (Mon-Thursday) and 9am – 4pm (Friday) inclusive of a paid one hour lunch break. This yields a net working week of 34 hours.

The Gardai also provide a 365 day 24 hour service. They are officially recorded as working a 39 hour week. The 24 hours are covered on the basis of three eight hour shifts and each eight hour shift is inclusive of a 45 minute lunch break. In order to reduce that 40 hour commitment to a 39 hour week the one hour build up per week is accumulated and allowed as time in lieu. The nominal 40 hour week worked by the guard is actually 36.25 hours, which is further reduced by time in lieu to allow for a 39 hour week. Thus the actual working hours per week are 35.25.


pay:

A 10.6% increase on all scale points for all nursing and midwifery grades in order to address the anomaly which sees qualified and unqualified Childcare workers paid more than all Staff Nurses and Midwives.
10.6% is the amount required to restore the relative pay position for the nurse/midwife with the Social Care worker (former Assistant House Parent) prior to the application of increases between 20 and 27% to those grades in the statutory child care and sensory disability services in April 2001 and effective from January 2001. The increases of up to 27% were applied to the renamed child care workers in the context of the introduction of professionalisation. This subsequently following strike action in January 2002 was applied to Assistant House Parents and House Parents in the intellectual disability area with retrospective effect to April 2001. The increases applied to both qualified and unqualified Assistant House Parents and the agreement also provided for a new grade of trainee Social Care worker which currently enjoys a 3 point salary scale ranging from €25,145 to €27,653.


On qualification the Social Care worker will commence on a rate of pay which is almost €3,000 per annum higher than the nurse. That situation continues for 20 years and only on completion of twenty years will the Staff Nurse achieve the Senior Staff Nurse rate of pay (a payment based on long service) and go marginally ahead of the retitled Social Care worker.

No rational or reasonable explanation has ever been offered as to why nurses and midwives are the only officer grade required to work 39 hours. When one considers that they are also the professions who provide 24 hour 365 days a year and are the ones who provide comprehensive care when all others have left the premises at 5pm. The extended working hours is wholly unjustified.




You ll just have to read the rest i have only cut and pasted a tiny bit but its allready getting very long , as you can see they only want to be treated fairly . As ive said the Goverment are releasing stories that make the nurse out to be greedy and uncaring to sway public support against them such as that 70% work 39 hours when they clearly dont .

[Clifford]

Untrue. I have spent many full days in the hospital with a relative this year and nothing has changed with work to rule in regards to extra care for patients.

Of course individual cases are going to be different, I'm speaking from the experiences of a ward in a Cork hospital that's all I know about, which immediately will be different to a Dublin example if that's where you are or are not. Maybe everything is being done for your relative that is possible.

[anto1208]

27k is for graduate nurse. Average wage for a staff nurse is 40k which hardly breadline stuff as no doubt the pension is decent enough. A 20% increase (reduction in hours equates to another 10%) is unrealistic & I read somewhere that would cost 1 billion to fund (i am open to correction on this if anyone can find links) which by my calculations is 500 euro from every tax payer (i am assuming 2m tax payers).

Based on 40k salary for 39 hour week thats 19 euro per hour. A 10% rise plus reduction in working hours would lead to 24 euro per hour wage.

For some reason it is unacceptable to criticise the nurses.

Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?


27 K more like 22K

The nurse, whether in intellectual disability, general or psychiatric is now required to have an honours degree for registry to their profession. Additionally, the nurse receives no pay for the first three years of training and in their fourth year receives an annual rate of €22,539

average wage pete ??? if you are a builder and you earn 10K and your 2 neighbours also builders earn 1m each then your average wage is 670,000 doesnt do you much good now does it ???


If they managed to eliminate a naturally occuring bacteria found on all humans then yes i suppose they would deserve there money then :rolleyes:

[Poor Student]

Of course individual cases are going to be different, I'm speaking from the experiences of a ward in a Cork hospital that's all I know about, which immediately will be different to a Dublin example if that's where you are or are not. Maybe everything is being done for your relative that is possible.

I'm not talking about my relative specifically. I spend long enough there to observe what's going on across the ward. Sure I attend to the other patients in the room far more than any of the staff.

[pete]

27 K more like 22K


INO pay rates (http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977)

22,901 for student nurse in 2006. Staff nurses starts at 27k+



The nurse, whether in intellectual disability, general or psychiatric is now required to have an honours degree for registry to their profession. Additionally, the nurse receives no pay for the first three years of training and in their fourth year receives an annual rate of €22,539


Apprentices rarely get paid much in any job.




average wage pete ??? if you are a builder and you earn 10K and your 2 neighbours also builders earn 1m each then your average wage is 670,000 doesnt do you much good now does it ???


AFAIK the nurse unions ate looking for 20% pay increase across all grades which is why i use averages. If its just 205 increase for lowest paid then they should state that & I will use the figures for lowest paid then.



If they managed to eliminate a naturally occuring bacteria found on all humans then yes i suppose they would deserve there money then :rolleyes:

As hospital employees nurses are surely as responsible as anyone for the high rate of infections? It can't be just the doctors fault can it?

[anto1208]

INO pay rates (http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977)

22,901 for student nurse in 2006. Staff nurses starts at 27k+

Apprentices rarely get paid much in any job.

AFAIK the nurse unions ate looking for 20% pay increase across all grades which is why i use averages. If its just 205 increase for lowest paid then they should state that & I will use the figures for lowest paid then.

As hospital employees nurses are surely as responsible as anyone for the high rate of infections? It can't be just the doctors fault can it?

So pete if the guy next to you in work works a 35 hour week while you work a 40 hour week , he gets paid 30K and you get 27 you wouldnt ask for a rise and/or a reduction in hours ????

[Clifford]

Sure I attend to the other patients in the room far more than any of the staff

Be careful - they'll get you a job on shocking pay and slave like hours if your not careful :D :D

[pete]

So pete if the guy next to you in work works a 35 hour week while you work a 40 hour week , he gets paid 30K and you get 27 you wouldnt ask for a rise and/or a reduction in hours ????

Apologies but I got a bit confused with the posts below but in your example 27k is the nurse & 30k is ???

Have you not heard the parable of the Prodigal son? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigal_Son) :)

I would realise that threatening to strike unless I get 20% (all or nothing) would have little chance of progression. Even if the 20% claim is justified the nurses unions have backed themselves into a corner that any negotiation is a defeat.

I am sure loads of people deserve to be paid more but the fact is the unions signed up to benchmarking & the independent Labour Court said their pay claims should be settled into it. IMO the nurses should sit down to negotiate the reduction in hours which the HSE has offered & pursue the pay increase via benchmarking - it was meant to link pay grades which seems to be the core of the dispute?

[anto1208]

Apologies but I got a bit confused with the posts below but in your example 27k is the nurse & 30k is ???

Have you not heard the parable of the Prodigal son? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigal_Son) :)

I would realise that threatening to strike unless I get 20% (all or nothing) would have little chance of progression. Even if the 20% claim is justified the nurses unions have backed themselves into a corner that any negotiation is a defeat.

I am sure loads of people deserve to be paid more but the fact is the unions signed up to benchmarking & the independent Labour Court said their pay claims should be settled into it. IMO the nurses should sit down to negotiate the reduction in hours which the HSE has offered & pursue the pay increase via benchmarking - it was meant to link pay grades which seems to be the core of the dispute?

They have been asking for a sit down since 1980 but are continually ignored because the goverment know thye wont let down there patients they have been backed into a corner for 27 years and all they ask for fair and equal working conditions .

Here is there list of what there "strike" means they wont be doing .

*Clinical/admin duties; nursing notes will be maintained manually;( admins job )

*Attend meetings, except those involving consideration of named individual patients, their welfare and case management;

*Telephone work, except calls deemed essential on clinical grounds;( admins job )

*Open or secure all community-based buildings and facilities.( securties job )


As you see it doesnt mean an awfull lot if security and admin staff did the jobs they are paid to do there would be no dissrution at all .


Look you started saying that 70 % work 39 hour weeks ive shown you thats wrong
You said nurses start on 31K ive shown you thats wrong
now im not blaming you you went to a official goverment source your only mistake was not realising the figure would be twisted to suit. ( ie the 39 jours just dont add up as my previous post and the 31K doesnt take into mention that they have to work nights and sundays to bump up there pay to 31K )

All they want is to work the same hours as every one else and get the same pay as everyone else ( care assistants recently got a 27% rise !!! )

[Ringo]

[QUOTE=anto1208;663252]You went to Mary Harney for your facts :rolleyes:

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/articles/Documents/Submission%208Claims%2020Jun06.doc

you went to the INO:rolleyes:

you'll note the Departments figures are current , your notes from the INO are nearly a year old. Why hasn't the INO refuted the departments claims?

[pete]

They have been asking for a sit down since 1980 but are continually ignored because the goverment know thye wont let down there patients they have been backed into a corner for 27 years and all they ask for fair and equal working conditions .


The list of pay increases gained in during the sham that benchmarking is would seem to contradict this.

If the nurses get 10% pay increase then the teachers will be next in line & so on. The state is already employing too many civil servants (more public sector than private sector jobs created in recent years) so soon will be back to bad days of the 1970s.

I have a good friend who worked in a semi state body for a while & has since left. I now believe that it has poisoned his view of work as he has recently told me story of work demarcation in current private sector job. All this talk of "thanks admins job" reminds me of that antiquated way of thinking. :rolleyes:

For what its worth the nurses seem entitled to discussion on work hours but pay increase in completely invalid as they just linked themselves to other Health service jobs to suit their case. No one has answered why benchmarking (that body is full of civil servants) has disagreed with these claims.

[Student Mullet]

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, according to the Irish Medical Organisation, work a 39 hour week ...inclusive of a paid one hour lunch break.

They [Gardas] are officially recorded as working a 39 hour week. ... and each eight hour shift is inclusive of a 45 minute lunch break.
Presumably the nurses also take lunch breaks? Am I missing something or is the INO subtracting lunch breaks from the comparisons with doctors and gardas and whomever but not from their own hours?

[anto1208]

Presumably the nurses also take lunch breaks? Am I missing something or is the INO subtracting lunch breaks from the comparisons with doctors and gardas and whomever but not from their own hours?

Nurses dont get paid for there lunch breaks so if you work 8 to 8 you only get clocked in for 11 hours .

[pete]

Nurses dont get paid for there lunch breaks so if you work 8 to 8 you only get clocked in for 11 hours .

Welcome to the rest of the planet. The problem here seems to be that other workers are getting paid for eating and drinking. I think need to work to remove that from other workers. Nice to see where my tax euros going...

[Student Mullet]

Nurses dont get paid for there lunch breaks so if you work 8 to 8 you only get clocked in for 11 hours .Thanks,
I would have thought most nurses were on a salary rather than an hourly rate but I'm probably just wrong.